TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: At the end of yesterday it just seemed as if everything kind of crowded down in their not really believing in my skills or whatever could get me a job.

THERAPIST: Right. And – go ahead.

CLIENT: I was just going to say, yes – yeah, I mean basically yeah, I don't know like it's maybe like looking a job descriptions. I'll have like, oh I can totally do that and then there's like a little description of the job. I'm like, oh that's great. I can do that. And then when there's like the listing of like what you need to do or you know, and I'm like, oh but, you know, I don't quite have this or I don't know if they'll – they probably want someone with more experience with this or –

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Well, I mean I kind of know it. I can (unclear) and like then I sort of by the end sort of – I don't know if I talk myself out of it, but then I'm like oh, it's a really good job. It's too bad that I wouldn't get hired.

THERAPIST: You talk yourself out of your awesomeness.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: Like you're afraid.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Which is – yeah, I don't know. Like I guess I do feel that if I got to an interview the interview would go well. The personal interview would go well. But I don't have any confidence of getting there. I mean I talk myself out of a lot of things but I feel like the intensity of it has gotten worse and (unclear) would just seem accurate like a Cambridge degree certainly makes people look at your resume and you know, it's certainly known in a conceptual way that whatever, like but done for a reason. I suddenly knew who was like a year ahead of me and was also in the folklore mythology department with me. He was doing like – he wanted to be a stockbroker and work in investment banking and he mentioned that this was not his intent but when people were like, folklore mythology, that's like people would often comment on that in interviews. Real (unclear) [00:04:33] like what is that? You're a banker who took folklore mythology?

THERAPIST: Well, that's another type of economics.

CLIENT: Right. And yet it helps set him apart and he's like yeah, so even though everyone (unclear) in this degree, it's sort of like a little extra entry way for him, especially. But I don't know. Right now I just don't feel, I don't feel like that Cambridge degree is, I don't know, I just don't. I mean and you know that like that's not like – my Cambridge degree remains my Cambridge degree like I don't know. I don't feel like it's going to – I feel on an emotional level that it's going to open that door.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: I mean that's partly – I mean I just feel like right now I'm doing very (unclear) like no one's going to care about that which I don't know, like I actually obviously explain well, I have a master's as well so. I'll probably still care about my undergrad, it still is Cambridge. And like I'm just feeling like what did I have a degree for? I think partially because it means, it can almost (unclear) [00:06:34] like (unclear) was this weird combination of like trade school and academics and like the trade school aspect is like I'm spending a lot of money for trade school. Like I feel like I'm going to like I don't know, everything is like to become a beautician you have to take X-classes and get certified by the state to be a beautician. And a friend of mine does book archiving and she had similar (unclear) like you do these certain tasks, you do certain things and then you're like, you are officially deemed qualified to do this kind of archival preservation and like they're very hands on and you don't write papers and you sort of just do things. And I don't know, I do write papers and things but work almost leaves me feeling like the papers aren't really, they're giving me a weighted grade is not that they're – like I'm not analyzing a document or compare and contrast thing. Like I guess I feel in a way like the paper is a substitute for demonstrate four ways to preserve this document or demonstrate a (unclear) [00:08:33] or something like –

THERAPIST: It's a heavy (unclear) and about showing you know something that's (unclear) concrete or practical rather than being more thoughtful or analytical.

CLIENT: Yeah I guess it's kind of I feel as though a lot of it is we want like – we want you to have this great thing you can do, these 12 practical things but we're going to stretch it out into two semester (unclear) books. [00:09:16] When I kind of like, I could just fill out all the paperwork and just give it to you like I would in class. I'm sure some people – you know because I'm going to (unclear) I really in a way felt like I could probably sit down at the end of the term if I had like more self-starter-ness or whatever, I probably could have just done all this stuff without lecture but you have to attend and do it however they want. It's like the outcome of cataloging isn't really – it's not like an analysis or something thoughtful. It's this is how you give books call numbers. Or this is the rationale behind call numbers which helps you better understand (unclear) on the shelf or why certain things are shelved in certain places which is totally useful. Also something you can pick up as a student assistant shelving books. Again, it just kind of becomes clear you're like oh, right. So I don't know, like –

(Pause): [00:10:57 00:11:05]

CLIENT: I guess I feel very done with a degree even though I'm not finished.

THERAPIST: That's like the sort of thing where there should be a kind of a mid-career degree program. You know how they have that for like – MBAs or listing stuff like that where they kind of like – this probably isn't quite analogous, but where they would take advantage of the fact that you know a lot of the stuff you'd be learning about, you would otherwise be learning about and so they accelerate it. CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And you can get done quicker. I mean there probably is something like that, but it sounds like that is part of the problem that you're talking about.

CLIENT: Yeah. And the other sort of problem or reality is if I did it fulltime I would have already been done.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: But I can't do it fulltime, that job, and I don't. If you stand by not going too much in debt. (Chuckle)

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And I know the other thing that I think about is assuming my job skills are like the squishy job skills were able to be really patient with my dates, able to explain TZPIP and weird letter forms like things like that, I can't – how do I convey this to you – everyone says they're a (unclear) communication or whatever and proving right now among the other things is like I have an almost 20-year online presence that I don't want to put on my resume and I think I have to in a certain way like if you replicate it but I think I have enough to put up a website in like something, something that you know pulls up good (unclear) and like put a few things on it and logistically – that reminds me of a librarian who's doing something that I like. She's like, yeah, (unclear) put a book site, use your name. She's like, I mean some people have cute hand (unclear) like you know, fuck it.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: But they're all librarians.

THERAPIST: They're all librarians?

CLIENT: Yeah. The blog is actually really amazing and I don't know why she calls herself the feral librarian.

THERAPIST: (Laughs)

CLIENT: I haven't looked into that part because she does have an MLS.

THERAPIST: Maybe she just likes the librarian part.

CLIENT: That's it. (Unclear). We're you like, did you become a librarian like in the wild? Initially it was like, oh, she must have an MLS. She must have just kind of raised through the ranks.

THERAPIST: Okay. I understand.

CLIENT: But no. (Laughs) Yeah, or something like (unclear) handle these (unintelligible). [00:14:50] Like Drayton (unclear) has associated his name with his handle, a certain handle that he uses and (unclear) be creating. I don't feel like and I'm already spending, I already spend time online and as soon as I (unclear) I say no I don't think I want to talk to my friends more. I don't and so it's like well I have to just add in an hour a day or half hour a day to look professional.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: And I'd rather talk to (unclear) online media. Here's the other thing you can't just throw up like a wilderness, you got to interact with other people's blogs and make comments and I'm like, oh, fuck, like I totally know that and I know that that takes a certain amount of time every day or like twice a week or whatever and I don't know. I wish I knew – it's sort of like at the time it didn't really seem very important or would ever be relevant to anything so. And when I first went online everyone was like the people who use their real names were students because you had to use your student account and you were (unclear) why do you have this freak student account. So there's a mini-history using my real name and there's a long history under like pseudonyms or versus (unclear), whatever. [00:16:48]

THERAPIST: A few of them? CLIENT: Like three. And also just use my first name on various sites. Actually I think there's 13 years of one name, and 10 years of (unclear) pseudonyms which anyway – (laughs). But I really don't want to put on my resume like you know, have spent hours on book sites discussing comics or whatever like it's like it's not really – I don't know. There's that but there's also I'm not super into saying, here is my personal life/work. And I'm not so sure that I would like to tell work like a lot of strong political opinions. (Unclear).

(Pause): [00:18:13 00:18:22] CLIENT: And in fact it's not really – I mean that's part of it, but I also often feel like there is like, because (unclear) is a new thing and then there's the (unclear) hiring and in terms of like what do people who are doing hiring – this is not in the comment, but I feel the people who do hiring are very entranced by like if I could buzz word it up or I don't know, make them think like – I think that like the practical skills I have in (unclear) online and like being able to communicate on online forums and all these other things, I don't have like a little packaged word and –

THERAPIST: Right. If you were like instead of posting online forums and just being out there in the ways that you are online, you were like contributing to open source projects and trying to get a software engineering job, you know then you could point to this stuff and say I did this and I did that and here's a few other things that I did.

CLIENT: It isn't quite that. Like I (unintelligible) [00:20:16] think that if I'd worked at it I could probably do something like designed an online synchronous collaborative environment to like encourage student experimentation in Web 2.0, like.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like it's partially because I don't, I really don't value that level of gibberish. (Both laugh).

THERAPIST: My impression when you said that is you can go beyond saying you don't value it.

CLIENT: Yes and so yeah, I really don't.

THERAPIST: Well I think you think it's like saying more like yeah, like disingenuous or pretentious in a really like vapid sort of way.

CLIENT: I think it's way more irritating than (unclear) is like ridiculous (unclear) that I've written or read. I'm like, well you're supposed to do that, so I do it. You're doing the exegesis of whatever.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And then you have the terminology and that's fine. Like that's what you do. So the other problem is I feel like there is a certain level of people who just don't know what those words mean so when I'm like, yeah! I'm totally down on this, but wasn't it social media? Yes. I described a message board online if you had yes. And I just was like, or, we've already talked to someone about, or consulted someone about our second life presence or whatever and so obviously this is like, this has happened at Cambridge to me obviously but I also find that sometimes like if I spend a little more time like reading on the library terminal and a few other things that again I seem like this, there's a bunch of different people writing editorials or writing opinion pieces and (unclear) level that that's interesting but I've been doing that for five years so it's not good enough.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Right.

(Pause): [00:23:02 00:23:19]

CLIENT: Like if someone today was doing open (thesaurus) (ph) it would be a little easier in that you can just do it and then you're like, hey, I [patched in buns in ruby] (ph) like oh, yeah, okay.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And you just know there's not really a barrier –

THERAPIST: There's currency you can use.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: In a way that is really more complicated for you to use. CLIENT: Yeah, the other thing like, there's like –

(Pause): [00:23:53 00:24:02]

CLIENT: I think that the reason which librarians have put up barriers for themselves to new technology in which they feel like oh this is so impossible, I can never understand it. I don't know. They're sort of like, oh I don't understand and so it's hard to communicate. Like the first step is spending time. It's like no it's okay, it's (unclear) your face. It's fine. And then – and I feel like I feel there's people using, thinking that they're using words or thinking that they're approaching something and not – or at least in IT I'm like yep, I did these 10 things like HR tends to let IT go a little bit on their own because they're like, I don't fucking know what computers, whatever. But people feel very free to declare themselves rock stars or declare themselves, I do know what it's about. And I'm like, no you're not.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And not willing to admit that maybe they don't or just to use more understandable language or just like I don't know. I guess a part of me is like that's cool but no it ain't. That thing that you just did, I understand that it fits your shiny buttons but after that what does it do? It's real interesting that you can make a small mobile computer that can be used in libraries for like (unclear) dollars. [00:26:03] But what do we do next? Or how do you think, once you have your social media plan, what are you going to do with it? Like, I don't know.

(Pause): [00:26:22 [00:26:32]

CLIENT: And part of this is also that I would like to (unclear) and see what happens so people really, (unclear) also. Hey, that's just your leverage button. But me, I'm like, huh. So you don't know what he's talking about. Like yeah I guess it's like I don't know what it is exactly that I'm sort of mad about but it's sort of like whenever the thing like expires I feel like I can't get like information up or not in a sufficiently opaque way or sufficiently like (unclear). Like I don't even know. [00:27:44]

THERAPIST: In some ways it's like a lot of situations you describe as frustrating even like the meeting with the kind of like diversity hiring recruiter person where you sort of couldn't get her to listen to you or couldn't get her to really grasp what you were talking about in a remotely satisfying way.

CLIENT: Yeah. I think the other thing I think about a little more is also like let say there's a library workshop and (unclear) it will be spelled like copyright one and two for librarians and I sense very strongly that I might go crazy but I want to know what the library is saying what you do, but it's the experience of like going to –

THERAPIST: Sorry, but what's that about?

CLIENT: Oh, they're going to do a workshop talking to librarians about copyright and copyright violations – what's fair use in this new crazy digital world.

THERAPIST: Okay. CLIENT: And part of what's going to be frustrating is none of these people who do open source, who do like Creative Commons, so that's, all of that is probably going to be like but, but, but – and I just want to just hear it but a couple of times, like several times I've had these, like you know, I'm going to go to this talk on – I don't know, use of Twitter in Libraries, and the person who's talking, I'm like, oh, I really know more about this than you?

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And (unclear) but you're the person up there and I'm over here and I don't think I can leverage myself over there.

(Pause): [00:30:10 00:32:04]

THERAPIST: I'm a little confused when puzzling over – I don't think what you mean I think I understand most of what you said and I think that's what's confusing me as far as I can tell. I think, so you started saying like, (unclear) yesterday as far as my kind of devaluing the things that I have or have done in a way like makes it hard for me to put myself out there or (unclear) out there, jobs and stuff. I keep putting myself down and whatever kind of – (unclear) that I can never make it work before I try or whatever. And these are (unclear) well you've done that and like you started talking about some ways you kind of could put yourself out there online that would be really annoying to have to do but you know, maybe like (unclear). [00:33:30] And then you sort of like kind of got into the morass of social media buzz word mayhem. Sort of in libraries in general and Cambridge in particular and I guess in a way here's the thing. You seem to like be actually pretty defeated by it and very frustratingly so because you actually legitimately know a ton about a lot of the kinds of stuff that you were referring to, you know, in on it very early and spent a lot of time doing it and learned a lot and somehow find yourself like not getting credit for it in any way at work. And so okay, here comes the part where I'm puzzled. So – I'm just trying to lead up – I'm trying to figure out how – clearly some of that is because of the state of the world, you know, people who sort of like to self(unclear) in certain ways and probably have a problem being flashy but disingenuous or like pretending knowing something more than they do but in ways that like sound good and because there's so many people with authority who really can't tell the difference it's (unclear) well, I guess I imagined Will had to be that sort of person. There are other aspects to him but I get one part of it. And you're really uncomfortable being like that. And that's worked against you. I guess I'm – that's one side. The other side is I wonder of it has to do with you in a kind of similar way to where we started that like, I don't know, somehow you want to try to figure out the bad part of that where it's like because there's a lot of people spouting bullshit or fooling people into thinking they know more than they do or themselves into thinking they know more than they do, or sort of aggressively promoting themselves like somehow that means that you really can't or couldn't like reasonably promote yourself for the things you actually know a lot about in ways that would be effective. Like I guess (unclear) [00:36:58] I imagine there must be a few people out there who do this kind of work in libraries who actually do know what they're talking about and do good things and maybe don't get listened to any more than the people who really don't. But I guess maybe this is naïve like I don't see why they can't listen to a lot less either because maybe there are a few who write letters, I don't know.

CLIENT: I guess where that's kind of a beginning so I don't feel like people who listen to me. So like I guess part of it, I mean I feel like why would you, I don't know, like from whenever one derives your ability to be standing at the podium I don't feel like someone would pick me to do that.

THERAPIST: I see. I even know a situation at work where it's happened exactly that way. My impression is often (unclear). [00:38:37] Reasons like that.

CLIENT: Yeah, and so right now I don't feel like if I was were worried that people would listen or that it's not a – like a workshop on Instructive Narratives in Videos, I don't feel like you would garner attention or would be taken seriously or that you'd be seen as anything other than like this is how you use Photoshop as opposed to this is how you conceptually think of combining digital media to create new narratives. THERAPIST: You had a like these same people who are really buying it from like opened it or this sort of thing are, when you actually put something out there that is really what you say it is, they going to think it's less than that?

CLIENT: Yes. Which I think is definitely – that is definitely influenced by the last couple of years of work and so I've been working on the idea of doing a (unclear) workshop or something but talking about remixing texts or various things and then part of why I get stuck is I am like it's so interesting. It's very interesting to me. And I'm like will my audience even know what I'm talking about? Like step one, like raise your hand, people who know what a video remix is? And I don't know they talk to you like –

(Pause): [00:41:47 00:42:00]

CLIENT: You're not from the media library, you're not from the (unclear) Center, you haven't done those things like why should we listen like which is, I know, like if you never do it and you never the (unclear) [00:42:20] and it's also partly because this sounds horrible really – I know how easy it is to get in the media lab or (unclear). Like that's not those –

THERAPIST: Media and Cambridge (unclear). [00:42:45] CLIENT: So weirdly I'm like if you were in the know you would already know that that doesn't matter. Like it's a nice thing, like it's awesome (unclear) really cool stuff but getting a loose affiliation with them and like you can stick it in your resume is not proof of anything.

THERAPIST: I know people who are like psychologists or psychiatrists and experts or whatever because they spent a few hours at teaching hospitals and it sounds cool when you get a page (unclear) but – [00:43:42]

CLIENT: Or I was thinking like Cambridge special (unclear) cards for the library and like here's the deal in the end if you know anyone in academia, if you know a professor you can probably convince them to write a letter to like it's not what – it is and it isn't.

THERAPIST: Right. But again I think the baby goes out with the bath water there, right? In that like just because people make more of it than what it is doesn't mean it's not worth anything. In some of these cases.

CLIENT: Yeah. Like I don't know if some of it is just like you can compare yourself with everybody online and, which is always awesome and you can develop an audience based on that and like eventually your authority is well, I've been writing at a blog for three years and you're like, huh, all right.

THERAPIST: Writing at what?

CLIENT: Oh sorry, it's a Skep Check is like an atheist blog.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: Skeptical Check.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And so in my head that's how you get authority about online stuff is you just kind of like – so I've written that for a while and I go oh, yeah, okay, and also like to an extent, like I've gotten hierarchy, not hierarchy but it's like anyone can talk to – and making like, I don't leave a comment at just any blogger's site or write a response and like get cross traffic.

THERAPIST: Yeah. CLIENT: And so I guess I feel like whatever authority capital that I have whether it's online or can create, I don't feel like it would travel and I don't know if I know like clearly logical do make that move. Like they use their online whatever to leverage each other's career or whatever. But I guess I just don't feel like that would happen for me. I feel like someone else would be next.

THERAPIST: I see. Professionally there is some sort of reality in the second part but the first part about it traveling in at least what you described there in a lot of ways like libraries are not necessarily, they can be somewhat traditional and conservative sorts of environments rather being some other environments like (unclear). [00:47:27]

CLIENT: No I think that's okay.

THERAPIST: Where you might have to worry as much about like political conflicts or something. I also wonder if the things you're wary of doing like you know, the (unclear) are – I'm (unintelligible) [00:48:09] whether those are actually different sorts of situations than the ones that had tended to go against you of which I know there have been many and they've been horrible. I mean (unclear) that. But like I guess being, offering a brown bag lunch and talk about the psychology thing seems just like entirely different than explaining to some powers that be why (unclear) is a really dumb idea even though some other people (unclear) seem to be really into it and then being ridiculously ignored.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I'm not trying to say –

CLIENT: No, they are different. I don't know. Like I might have like, is it impostor syndrome or fear of speaking in public, both of which I have. I'm not really, I don't know, there's just, I feel the same because other definitely are different.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: And like I did a series of like concentrating on how to use Mac network because we were bringing in Mac's and we were very well attended but I was convinced (unclear) was going to end but she did. Part of it was like who wants to give up time to learn, like there was existing resistance against Mac's which was weird but whatever. So it was like I keep on thinking of people who are resistant to musicology who are just like I don't want to add more to my workday. I don't want to learn this stupid new thing and that's what was going through my head instead of like, I don't know, this could be really interesting.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I wonder – we're going to stop, but I wonder if it's a bit of a projection of your own cynicism?

CLIENT: I'm not sure. But like I don't know.

THERAPIST: I mean maybe it's not, maybe just more of this. CLIENT: Okay.

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