TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: How are you?

THERAPIST: Good, thank you.

CLIENT: I guess I could begin with I keep on having nightmares constantly about past relationships and my relationship now. It must be something subconscious. It always deals with them either breaking up with me or cheating on me. A lot with Steve.

THERAPIST: Do you remember any particular nightmare in detail? [00:00:59]

CLIENT: It's funny because the same dream I keep having with Steve is like he either breaks up with me and then I keep trying to find him and I'm calling him and he ignores my call. That's usually how it is when I dream about him. When I dream about my ex it always has to do with sex and it's really, really odd.

THERAPIST: How so? What about sex?

CLIENT: Just like we would get back together and then he would sleep with other people, too. It's really complicated, pretty much like our relationship when we weren't together we still saw each other. It was just a physical relationship. I always have these dreams.

THERAPIST: Do you think they're more common now, that there are more of them or . . .? [00:02:01]

CLIENT: No. I think it's the same amount I've always had.

THERAPIST: Do things vary in the dreams from dream to dream?

CLIENT: Sometimes it's like I'm having a dream and I'm dating somebody else and I'm always trying to find Steve. In my dream I'm like, "Oh, yeah. I'm with Steve." It's really weird. I'll call him in my dream, but, of course, they vary. They're different settings. (chuckles) It's odd.

THERAPIST: The settings are odd or the difference?

CLIENT: Yeah, the settings are odd. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Sometimes we can learn a lot from the dream by getting into the details, which sometimes seem insignificant and sometimes they're really interesting; so that's why I was asking those kinds of questions. [00:03:02]

CLIENT: I had a dream about my ex and I was trying to meet him at the college and that's where most of our relationship fell apart with me going to see him at college. But in my dream, it was climbing a mountain in snow to get to his college. It was really weird. He did go to school in Maine, so there was a lot of snow. It was always a challenge to get there and then whenever I got there, it was not worth it because we would fight or something.

THERAPIST: Was it cold?

CLIENT: Yeah. It was cold. It's interesting, but I got upset.

THERAPIST: You were upset that you couldn't get to him or you were upset that when you got to him it wasn't what you had hoped for? [00:04:03]

CLIENT: Yeah, more like that. I'm upset at having the dreams. I wake up and I'm like, "Ugh." (snickers) With Steve I always wake up and I'm like, "I had that dream." It's like, again, it's just silly. That's what I dreamed about last night, but last night I dreamed about my ex. It was weird.

THERAPIST: So it began with you climbing up the snow?

CLIENT: No, it was just really weird. Me and my friend were wanting to meet him and it ended up he was seeing other people. He had invited me but he was seeing other people, too, at the same time so we ended up leaving on bad terms. [00:05:03] I kind of felt like that was pretty much our relationship, but why am I still dreaming about it now?

THERAPIST: Because it still has meaning that has yet to be figured out.

CLIENT: I had a good week. I worked a lot. Me and Steve didn't see much of each other. It was funny because our neighbor is trying to get him to use his boat and was trying to encourage him to go get his boating license. He told him that Steve came back after and they were hanging out. He was like, "So I heard you had a heart-to-heart with our neighbor." I'm like, "Not really, no. Why?" He was like, "Because he told me to hang out with you more." [00:06:04] I found that funny (chuckles) that the neighbor said that. It was like he can tell that Steve's like we're never around each other. I was like, "Oh, maybe he's right." (chuckles) That bothers me. (pause) I'm in a relationship and it bothers me still. (crying)

THERAPIST: Because you feel neglected.

CLIENT: Yeah. [ ] (inaudible at 00:06:54) It's like he thinks I'm picking on him and telling him how to be a boyfriend, but it's really just how you feel. That's upsetting. (sniffles) I don't know how to get through to him. (pause) Crying, being upset, doesn't work. I don't know how to tell him that it's serious with him actually believing it and wanting to (crying) work on things.

THERAPIST: What do you most want to communicate to him? [00:07:59]

CLIENT: That he's not there in our relationship. He doesn't [ ] (inaudible at 00:08:08) matter to me. It's not important to him. He says, "I tell you that I care about you and you should just believe it pretty much." He says it but his actions don't say that. How he is around me doesn't say that, so it's very misleading. (pause) I don't know how to go about saying it in a different way that he would understand that would either work [ ] (inaudible at 00:09:00) (sniffles) (pause) [00:09:09]

THERAPIST: You feel differently week-to-week about the relationship. Sometimes you feel like it's mostly you and you're not satisfied and, when you feel in a better place, you guys get along well. Sometimes you feel like he's just not holding his weight and he's not pulling his weight and he's not needing you the way you need to be met; but they're two pretty different ways of thinking about the relationship.

CLIENT: When I think about the relationship in a way positive, I'm not thinking about it. I'm just accepting it and I'm just trying to make the best of things. Then if something happens, it brings me back to our true problems and it makes me discouraged. [00:09:58] (sniffles) (crying) I know part of it's me. It's both of us. I try to blame it on myself more so I can just have a different opinion and be positive about it, but it is what it is. I just don't know how to communicate to him in any other way. I already told him and it doesn't seem to change. (sniffles) He said I try to push things aside and not think about what's upsetting me and just [ ] (inaudible at 00:10:51) and that doesn't help, him not realizing what's upsetting me. [00:11:03] (pause) (crying) At this point, I don't know what to do.

THERAPIST: You don't know what to believe or feel or what to do with the relationship or all of them?

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't know what to do with the relationship. I'm just kind of there. (sniffles) Sometimes I'm hopeful and the relationship I feel like it's wrong, like I deserve better. He's more distracted with his job and with himself right now and I just feel like he's always been like that. He has excuses. Like, "I'm tired; it's my job," or he'll be better and he doesn't do anything in the moment. I gave him one job to do, just to bring the trash out and bring the barrel out and he left the barrel there for four days, which really pissed off our neighbors so somebody took our barrel. He could care less. He's like, "It's just a trash can." It's more than just a trashcan; that's like all I asked him to do. (crying) [00:13:07] And he can't even do that. (crying) (pause) It's so frustrating. The more I try to explain myself, he just thinks I'm being ridiculous, that I'm arguing with him about a trash can. He can't think about all I do for him; and this is the only thing I ask him to do to help out. (pause) (sniffles) [00:14:11] It's frustrating. So that was my week. (snickers)

THERAPIST: It seems like you almost feel abandoned by him.

CLIENT: I'm just confused. He used to be such a thoughtful person. He was so caring and he was so involved. (sniffles) Since we've lived together, it's like the exact opposite. He doesn't help out at all. I have to ask him to do anything. He doesn't go out of his way for me. [00:15:06] (pause) The more he says, like when he recognizes how much I do, he says, "I have to do a little more," and it never happens. He says it and it never happens or it will happen once and then he'll go back to the same being there, the same to me. He says because he works six days out of the seven. It's eight-hour shifts. It's not like he's working 12-hour shifts. He goes in at 2:00 some days. He could do stuff. [ ] (inaudible at 00:15:55) (pause) [00:16:02]

THERAPIST: I guess with the relationship, in my own mind, is you have to figure out whether he offers you enough or whether he doesn't. It's a painful decision in the short run and in the long run, in terms of if you stay with him can you find ways in which this relationship is enough, even if it disappoints you at times.

CLIENT: Yeah. I guess I'm just hopeful that maybe someday it will change. Maybe he'll change. It's not going to happen, is it? (snickers)

THERAPIST: People do change, but to stay in a relationship on that condition is a tough one because they you're setting yourself up for chronic disappointment.

CLIENT: (sniffles) [00:17:01] I've never broken up with somebody. I've always waited for them to make the decision.

THERAPIST: Hmm. Why do you think?

CLIENT: (sniffles) I like being in a relationship. When you're with somebody for such a long time you're really comfortable with them, so I don't really want to begin [ ] (inaudible at 00:17:35). It feels easier to stay with somebody than to go through that dramatic breakup. (pause) (sniffles) [00:18:09] (crying) I really do care about him. It's hard. (sniffles)

THERAPIST: When he doesn't do the things that you would like him to do, does it feel like he's depriving you of something?

CLIENT: (sniffles) I don't know. It's just [ ] (inaudible at 00:18:29). I feel like if he was more affectionate, if we had a better physical relationship I wouldn't care about those things. He doesn't even try to have a relationship with me. I feel it's just a friendship. (pause) [00:19:04] (sniffles) (pause) I'll figure it out eventually.

THERAPIST: Well I can imagine since I've met with the two of you for a few months, is that his take on it and you probably know this is that the reason that you don't have more of an intimate sexual relationship is he feels like you act in ways that are too much like a mother and it doesn't create a relationship that feels sexual and romantic.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: The problem is that you both feel like you're reacting to each other, so you feel you're acting that way because you have no choice because he doesn't hold up to his end of the bargain in terms of responsibility, and so each of you probably places where it begins with the other person. [00:20:13] And I'm not saying it's a good reason or a bad reason, his response, I'm just putting it in context.

CLIENT: Yeah, I think I'd be more laid back and off his case if he acted responsible when we're together. You have to think about each other if you're living together. That makes sense. (sniffles)

THERAPIST: Here's the thing, if one of your top criteria is someone who is very responsible, Steve is not that. That's not who he is. He's laid back. He's not on top of things. [00:21:02] Even if this dynamic were to get better, that's something, in terms of wishing that he were a different person, that's probably I know you're not saying that but that's important for you to think about. He brings other qualities to the table, but not that one. (pause) I might frame it less in terms of responsible/irresponsible. I guess you could say proactive he's definitely proactive. That's not his personality.

CLIENT: I think that makes sense. (pause) [00:21:59] It's funny because when we started going back out this time he seemed very responsible. That's the only reason I went back out with him. It's like he kind of had his stuff together before his dad died. He had a good job, was paying his bills, he had a car, he had a home. He was still living at home, but I was, too. Maybe it looked like he was being responsible. That's what I looked at. He seemed happier. He just doesn't seem happy.

THERAPIST: One thing to think about, the both of you, is that not only did you move in together from not living together, but you both moved in together from leaving your parents' homes, which has a whole other complicated context to it. [00:23:03]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Really complicated. There's kind of compounding factors because you don't have "what is this like versus living on my own" as a comparison point, just what people can often compare it to when they think about "do I want to be here?" What was it like living on my own? That's not the only consideration, but it might be one. Your reference point is living at home with your parents.

CLIENT: Right, but it's ten times better living with him than with my parents. I'm so much happier, which is an odd thing to say. It's very lonely at my house. I like the companionship. (sniffles) (pause) [00:24:05] When I talk to other people I was the exact opposite of their boyfriends, but it was never the fact that their girlfriend dated more than them and that they couldn't take their girlfriend out. Even my friends just don't understand. I think that makes me think about things, other people's points of view. (pause) [00:25:02] So you think I'm really hard on him?

THERAPIST: I don't know if I'd frame it that way.

CLIENT: I don't know. Maybe I pushed him too much.

THERAPIST: I guess the important question is "what's too much?"

CLIENT: I think I aggravate him too much when he does the opposite.

THERAPIST: This is a difficult thing for all couples, and especially in the context of being sure whether to be with someone because there are things you don't like about him and the question is how much of what you don't like about him is his reacting to you so that creates the dynamic. That could then extensibly change. And how much of it is him? [00:25:59] So trying to tease those apart can be extremely in some ways, you can't fully tease them apart, but thinking about that question is an important one.

CLIENT: I think a lot of it is how we react towards one another because when we were happy, there was no stress and that, we were fine. We never had an issue. We were happy, but now that there are other things in the equation and our past, it's definitely how we react together. So are you saying that maybe that could change? We thought it had changed a little bit, his reaction had changed.

THERAPIST: I think, yeah, that why you started the couple's therapy and I thought it was a good idea. If I thought that people's dynamic couldn't change, I don't work with them f I didn't think it was a possibility. I do think it's a piece of it. [00:27:06] It seems like when you feel like that, those times are when you feel more comfortable about the relationship because you feel like Steve is a workable partner and you feel like there's something that you can do. There are times when you feel like there's nothing there where he's so stubborn or so thoughtless that that's who he is and that's the end of the story. That's when you feel extremely despairing. My thought is that the truth is probably somewhere in between. (pause)

CLIENT: I think you're right. (chuckles) He's told me that a lot of times it's how I react to him that's how he reacts to me. I really think if we're to be together I would have to be the one that's going to help him get through school. I don't think he'll do it on his own. Is that where I should not intervene or whatever? Do you think he should be able to make that decision on his own? He wants to go to school and I think financially I would be the only one who could be able to help him. Would that make things worse if I helped him financially?

THERAPIST: There are a lot of confusing variables in that, too. The question is do you want to help him?

CLIENT: Of course I do.

THERAPIST: Do you want to help him and not feel resentful about having to carry what might feel like extra weight? [00:29:03]

CLIENT: Yes, if I'm able to talk to somebody about it. I think I could be able to do that. I think when you're alone you just have negative thoughts and just get wrapped up in emotions instead of seeing (sniffles) what the picture really is. I do that a lot.

THERAPIST: You know how I portrayed the circle with these pieces, your dynamic and also his, I think keeping both of those in mind is very hard. You may feel comfortable with one way and floating the other way. It's hard to hold both in mind.

CLIENT: I'm just afraid I will help him and then he'll leave. I think that would break my heart. (voice breaking) If I put that much effort into it (sniffles) because I've had that happen. [00:30:13] [ ] (inaudible at 00:30:16) I guess that's just the risk I have to take, right? (pause) (sniffles)

THERAPIST: Only you can make that decision.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Maybe it would be better, though, the right way to do this. [00:31:01]

CLIENT: Yeah. (crying) My parents said that. My mother financially supported in the beginning my father saved money so he could buy a house. She paid for all the bills. [ ] (inaudible at 00:31:25)

THERAPIST: That's an interesting way of framing it.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: She saved money so he could buy a house versus each of them saving half their money and then the other half buying the house. It's segmented, it's divided in a very interesting way, a kind of peculiar way. That also means that it's his house, not their house, if he's the one that bought the house. It's not them buying the house because they each tried to save some money. [00:32:02]

CLIENT: Right. Yeah. That's all a different story.

THERAPIST: Is it? Or is it part of the same story?

CLIENT: Well, yeah. It's different, I would say, their marriage, than me and Steve's relationship. That's what I mean a different story. I would be working towards our future and he'd be working towards our future. If we ever got married, I would never have said, "This is my money. This is not your money." It would be our money.

THERAPIST: Is it really your dad's house? Is he the only person on the deed?

CLIENT: I don't know. I don't think so. She has her name on all of his accounts. She could dip into it if she wanted to, but she doesn't because she knows how he would react. [00:33:04] So it's hers. If anything happened to him, everything would go to her; but she's not allowed to use that money. (sniffles) It's very odd.

THERAPIST: What would happen to her if she did?

CLIENT: He would flip out. I think she did once and he threatened to divorce her, which makes no sense because she would get half of his that's just his control, I think. She's well aware of my father's issues and she, for some reason, thinks she's going to save his soul. (snickers) She's in this relationship because he needs her, I guess. [00:34:01] That's how she put it. She feels okay about that. That's not how I want things. It's funny, my brother's relationship, his wife controls everything. He pretty much doesn't have say at all and he financially supports them. It's the opposite.

THERAPIST: The gender role is the opposite but the theme is the same, one person being empowered and the other person being disempowered.

CLIENT: Yeah. They have a funny relationship, too. He bought a truck. That became her truck. He drove around in some beat up car for the longest time while she drove his new truck. [00:35:08] My brother is more like my mother than anything. I guess I'm more like my father to some extent. I'm a little more generous than he is. I don't want that type of relationship. I want equal partnership. If I got my degree I would definitely, if I believed in the relationship and I wanted to continue the relationship, I would definitely put him through school and pay for all the bills and let him get his education because I assume that's important, even to his self-esteem. [00:36:05] I don't think, at this point, he would ever be able to afford it. That's only if we could continue our relationship, of course, right? We talk to each other, want the same things, want to get married, but we both have doubts because of our fights. (sniffles) He always thought that I didn't trust him and didn't understand that I don't really trust a lot of people. He kind of blames that on me. "Don't you think that's going to affect our relationship?" "Yeah, that's why I'm working on it." I think he blames me for that. [00:37:01] (pause) I feel bad about that. (pause) (sniffles)

THERAPIST: In neither your parents nor your brother's relationship do you see anything that's mutual mutual respect, equal sharing of decision making.

CLIENT: (sniffles) Definitely not my parents. I'm not sure, I don't really get involved with my brother's relationship. I only know what my mother says to me and she's always down on my brother's life. Always. [00:38:03] She thinks that my brother's wife does things to get to her, for some reason, which I think is silly.

THERAPIST: It sounds like your mom identifies with your brother that he's the one who is taken advantage of, and yet his stuff no longer remains his stuff; and so I had some analogy. I can't really think of it now, but she identifies with him and, therefore, she doesn't like his wife, who is doing this to him.

CLIENT: Probably.

THERAPIST: It seems like kind of an indirect way of expressing dissatisfaction with your dad.

CLIENT: Probably. I don't know. They just don't get along. (snickers) [00:39:02] They're having a baby shower because my brother and his wife are having a baby and my mother gave the list of friends that she wanted to go and my brother's wife said no. (snickers) She was upset by that. I told my mother it's her baby shower and she should have the people she wants there; but she felt like she was doing it on purpose like a control thing.

THERAPIST: That's so interesting because you could say the same thing for your mother, that she's entitled to take something that's not hers. Interesting. It kind of has different dimensions to cutting off the relationship.

CLIENT: I don't know. I don't get into it. I take the medium. I just try to make her think positive and like "that's my baby shower." [00:40:01]

THERAPIST: But this is part of your concern. One of your concerns about Steve is that he's just going to take advantage of you and leave you high and dry.

CLIENT: Yeah. That was my last relationship, that's why.

THERAPIST: Not only the last relationship, but that's your experience in your family.

CLIENT: Yeah. (sniffles) Definitely. That even happened when my grandmother passed away and they all fought over her money. They all stole from each other. They're all very secretive about everything. It was a fight for two or three years and they were trying to get one against the other over this money or this control, how they felt things were going to be. [00:40:58] That was a horrible time.

THERAPIST: And this is your dad's or your mother's mom?

CLIENT: My dad's mother.

THERAPIST: Part of them was fighting for the money?

CLIENT: My father. He felt like he had no control. His sisters dealt with all of her funds when she was alive. He didn't really understand what was going on, so he got a lawyer. They weren't in communication with each other, but I think he felt like he had no control, like they didn't ask him his opinion. He took it personal and they didn't speak for a couple of years. It was really odd. (pause) [00:42:05] When it gets like that I know I have that fear. (sniffles) Definitely.

THERAPIST: It seems like smaller versions of it, like when he doesn't move a garbage can or something like that, that you feel like he's taking advantage of you, where you're taking care of everything and he just sort of sits back and doesn't feel the need to contribute.

CLIENT: It bothers me because that's your only responsibility, but I know he's not doing it on purpose. I think he just didn't take it back. He didn't say, "I'm not going to take this back," he just let it sit there and he just doesn't notice these things. [00:42:58] He just goes on with his day, but it really did upset me at the time because I just get frustrated that I do everything and then he doesn't contribute. That does aggravate me. (pause) I just feel like it should be even, especially house stuff. He can do that. It doesn't have to be financial things, taking initiative. I really have to be like, "Can you please do this?" "Can you please do that?" I have to remind him and then he'll do it. That makes me feel like I'm the mother. I don't want to feel that way.

THERAPIST: We need to stop for today so I will see you next week and, again, the week of the 5th, I'm gone that week, so in two weeks.

CLIENT: So next week is fine?

THERAPIST: Next week is fine.

CLIENT: All right.

THERAPIST: I will see you then. Take care.

CLIENT: Okay, thanks.

END TRANSCRIPT