TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: What – (unclear) had the choice between (unclear) disability about I don't know quite what you're saying and then today I got a call from a different disability office because there's two and just had a really confusing conversation I don't think was entirely that I was a little tired but I'm going to have to return to work full time on April 26th but it way more beneficial if I return to work May 2nd because May 2nd is a full time job – I start full time May 2nd. And I said I don't quite understand but I can't agree with it. Her explanation didn't really help me very much but she did say, ‘If you start May 2nd it will better, like is there any flexibility?' I think, ‘yes, yes, yes, yes.'

THERAPIST: Also, (unclear) so that 3:45 Thursday time, that will work ongoing? [00:01:28] CLIENT: Yes. It'll work at least through May 2nd so at least I'll have April and then yeah, and then it wouldn't any more, at all.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Well.

(Pause): [00:02:01 00:02:12]

CLIENT: After May 2nd it would be easier to have it earlier.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: We could also return to Wednesday but I don't like having that (unclear) in between. And would – I know Friday late is bad. Is Friday midday bad?

THERAPIST: I don't know. We could give it a try.

CLIENT: Yeah. Something like that. I'd be happy to give it a try.

THERAPIST: Okay. I may have something like that opening up around then.

CLIENT: Yeah, sure.

THERAPIST: Okay. (Unintelligible) [00:03:12] Other than that we'll be able to work something out today or end of day.

CLIENT: Okay. Yeah, like they just called me so I'm still very stressed in that I have to e-mail everyone all over again which is stressful and I'm confident that even though this is a difference of like a week that Chet's going to bitch about it which is just irritating. (Sigh) But – and (unclear) try and remember that [we're married] (ph) so we'll see. I don't know. (Pause): [00:04:22 00:04:29]

CLIENT: I mean it's just that I keep on wanting to be accommodating but then like I never ever get that accommodating back so I'm trying to stop being accommodating which I don't know, I'll see how it goes trying (unclear). [00:04:50]

The other thing is – is it okay if I talk about something that happened with (unclear)? So maybe like a year ago I got – back up – this activist, who was reading, she's a friend of mine, she was (unclear) bookstore.

THERAPIST: I think you had –

CLIENT: Yeah. And [Lucy] (ph) asked a question that – you know that thing about (unclear). At the time it was like that's kind of rude to ask so she asked her – Elaina wears dresses constantly. That's her thing. She always wears dresses. And [Lucy] (ph) asked Elaina like where could she look for more masculine fashion for dresses. And Elaina said she didn't know. I suggested a place (ph) and [Lucy] (ph) pulled a face and said that wasn't a store. No, "bears" are gay men who are chubby.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: So, you know, like they're like bear clothes.

THERAPIST: I get it. CLIENT: Yeah?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I'm like, ‘it's a convenient sort of term providing –' and like, ‘you know there's probably a bear fashion blog, they're talking about their little bear outfits and bears are fat so –

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: So and she pulled a face and was like, ‘no, that's not what I want,' and Elaina was like, ‘yeah, I don't know.' And one of my friends was sitting next to us, you know, may (unclear) fat – you may not find a specific blog or store but you can comb through plus size resources and like comb through the plus size clothing stores for things that fit your style to see if there isn't one that's like fatty/masculine shopping.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: She said, ‘you can do that.' And so then I was like talking and talking and whatever and nobody's talking to Elaina a little bit and I think Ashby said something similar like, ‘yeah, you know there's not like you know, if butch fashion blogs aren't doing it for you and bear fashion blogs aren't doing it for you like I don't think there's a great answer.' Like, you know, like –

THERAPIST: Right. I wouldn't think that.

CLIENT: Yeah, well I mean, yeah, like if it's sort of two like fashion blogging is really skinny and there are a lot that bloggers and a lot of fashion bloggers wear women's clothes and so most fat fashion bloggers wear (unclear) clothes. So, and like your two other options are butch fashion bloggers or the possibly (unclear) fashion bloggers, I'm not sure if they exist but [00:08:27] I think they do. And Elaina's kind of like, ‘Yeah.' I just turned away for a minute and then [Lucy] (ph) kind of like stomped over and was like, ‘Everyone's very upset,' and said that my friend had been super (unclear) and mean to her and she was just really agitated and she said, ‘is this just, if you're just – is this the fact or something just (unclear) like massaging, is it just like, is it just hate masculine fashion, is that something we can't talk about?' Like, ‘what?' And she said, she kept going on this tear –

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: – about like is it like how to be hard to this girl's face and on this [blog] (ph) and was disgusting and I wasn't – and no one was telling her because they didn't want to talk about it and I was just like, ‘no.' I'm sorry, but – and then, and she's like talking and –

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And she was really upset. So I think it was like a half hour or so and like my ride was with Ashby and like they're going like, (whispers) (unintelligible) and so Ashby swung by and said something mean to [Lucy] (ph) that Ashby did intend to be mean.

THERAPIST: Did intend to be mean.

CLIENT: Yeah. I can't remember what it was but it was something like you know, ‘no one's trying to be condescending. Just because you didn't get the answer that you wanted doesn't mean that people dislike you or your friend. You just didn't get the answer you want.' And then (unclear) off again. [00:10:20]

THERAPIST: Actually I found that mean.

CLIENT: She, I mean, she –

THERAPIST: Is she pretty sick? I mean like –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: She was looking through her purse and I was like, ‘do you kind of just say that quickly or do that to be mean,' and Ashby said, ‘oh no, I said it to be mean.' It was really just kind of like a jab of –

THERAPIST: I see. CLIENT: – people give you all this information and you are refusing all the resources like you're listening to everyone's suggestions and then asking them to give you what you want.

THERAPIST: Right. Like you're being a pain in the ass.

CLIENT: Yeah. And also the book that Elaina wrote is basically a memoir. It's like half memoir/half essay and the piece that she's written was about her personal life from when she was like a teenager. I think it was like her school uniform or something. It was just an issue of being a teenager. So it was a little like, [Lucy's] (ph) question was also kind of odd in that the reading wasn't exactly about fashion. It was kind of more about [Axitin] (ph) [00:11:40] Then Elaina's life and that it was all these different things but whatever and so [Lucy] (ph) was angry again. When I offered to give her, I asked if I could give her a hug and she was like, ‘no, I don't want you to touch me because that makes me feel like you're just being condescending and trying to shut me out.'

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: Okay? You know? And I was just happening to think of like, ‘I have to go. This is not what I signed on for and you don't seem like you're going to stop. I think if I' – and finally, and talking over them it was like, ‘oh this person didn't try to meet you, talk to you for like 20 minutes.

THERAPIST: Can I just interrupt you for a minute? Sorry. Somebody came over to the two of you and said that to you?

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: She was like this friend of mine has been wanting to talk to you. She was kind of winging it and like, can I just talk to you for one minute?

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And I said like, ‘yes, of course.' And so that was kind of (unclear). [00:12:45]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So I was going like, ‘so we're good to go.' And [Lucy's] (ph) next question was, ‘well, how will we go out for drinks after or blah, blah, blah, blah, you give me a ride home,' and I was like, ‘yeah, right.' (unclear). [00:12:57] And she very much wanted me to stay.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And sit and listen to her rant more and I just didn't want to. So I kind of was like that was annoying, it was a while ago. Fast forward to now. There is a plus size clothing store that's doing a kick starter campaign and it's a revitalization of a previous plus size store.

THERAPIST: Cool.

CLIENT: Yeah, and I'm excited. It's awesome, very excited and my friend was posting her blog, ‘this is good looking. It's really awesome because that was awesome and I could comment -

THERAPIST: (Unclear) or online?

CLIENT: It would be online and the store had masculine clothes and a pretty wide size range. The online store was all women's clothes and she had never read the clothes so it was junior plus size instead of women's plus size so it was like a size or two down because junior sizes are so weird and so the (unclear) like, ‘yeah, and if I want to have larger sizes online and I want to have more masculine clothing online, blah, blah, blah, so it will be an online store and so [Lucy] (ph) commented and in her first comment and she was like, ‘I've had it was fat acceptance and the fast foods people and fat fashion, they're just horrible and really mean and I went – I was completely made you, like made you feel ashamed of myself at this reading, you know, and it was so horrible like I asked this [tool] (ph) one question and people were just really obnoxious and rude.' I was just kind of like, ‘I don't recall that happening.'

THERAPIST: Right. CLIENT: I see you're upset.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I don't think any of that was like how it went down. Yeah. And so it was like, ‘oh I'm so sorry that you had a bad experience.' And [Lucy] (ph) was like, ‘yes, they're so horrible. Fat fashion bloggers are just horrible and mean and Rubin is just not accepting of masculine bodies in fashion and was like (growls). And so I saw this and I was really pissed off. Because her, but, A. – it was completely, was not like none of it was relevant to the issue which was, ‘hey there's this clothing store kick starter, like, give money, maybe.' So I'm like, ‘this is (unclear) and is not relevant.' And then she goes like, ‘that's not really what happened. Like, you didn't ask this complicated 201 question. It was a pretty basic question. And if you're trying to say that you were looking for clothes that met a specific gender criteria you didn't say that. You said, ‘masculine style clothing' like masculine style or not feminine clothing, so that's how people responded to that question. You didn't say like, ‘I am a butch as in a fat person, or I'm a transvestite person or like your identity didn't come up. It sounded like you were asking where to shop or what blogs to read.' And like I'm also thinking, I also was thinking like so you know that I do a lot of fat fashion blogging if you spent the last like two years and mostly struggling as you've just said to find an accepting place, is there a reason you didn't ask me? Because I can think of some like not a ton but you know, so I felt like [Lucy] (ph) was like sort of reconstructing or whatever, but phrasing what had happened to make herself seem very much the wronged party and thus to be very angry like –

THERAPIST: Righteously angry.

CLIENT: Yeah, like they saw that I'm angry so I'm righteously angry because people were talking identity and doing all of this.

(Pause): [00:18:31 00:18:39]

CLIENT: And it all seemed to, and so I was kind of looking at this and I really, really want to say something like, ‘I was there as well. Isn't my recollection like, I see you're upset and I'm not saying what you feel is wrong, I'm just saying that it wasn't my experience of it.' And so it was like dithering, kind of a writing thing and like whatever, and it was also like hard work and I was just being like, (whispers) I don't know, rephrase, rephrase, rephrase, and then I was like, ‘okay, so why am I – why do I want to respond so much, like why am I so pissed?' And like, I mean it's – one of them was that she also said recently that she, the emotion that she experiences most frequently is anger and that she feels that it's like, that emotion is safe to express and if she's angry at people then they can't hurt her.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: And my thought when she said that was, ‘that sounds really kind of intense,' and I don't really want to hang out with someone who is angry all the time.' She said that probably includes (unclear). [00:20:18] So I was thinking like, ‘well, like am I trying to persuade, like change her mind about what happened? And like, no. I don't, like you know, A. – she felt however she felt, and B. – she finds being like, if someone says in public, a blog on it like (unclear) ‘I think you were wrong about something.' She gets very defensive because she can't be – it's not possible that she's wrong. And we had this weird argument for a period of time at one point about what Mitt Romney's first name was. I told her, Willard Mitt Romney.

THERAPIST: That's his name.

CLIENT: Yeah. Mitt is like – I just kind of, I think it was calling Mitt Romney Mittens and then I was calling him Willard and her comment was like very kind of concerned like, ‘I'm embarrassed for you but (whispers) that's not his first name. It's really kind of awkward to hear you saying that.' ‘Yeah, what's his name?' And she just was like, got more entrenched –

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: – and I dropped it pretty quickly because I'm like, I know it's not his name and you really don't, aren't going to let this go, so I think I'm going to let go of this. I know I don't – whatever. So I was thinking like if I say that was not my experience it's going to just entrench her –

THERAPIST: Like anticipate.

CLIENT: And –

THERAPIST: She would feel it as an attack.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: And that would make it kind of impossible to talk about it.

CLIENT: Yeah. It's like I kind of sense that. It kind of sounds like (unclear) [00:22:49] it would be like super rapid, escalating (unclear) and I want to do that. And then I thought like, my other thing is I felt kind of frustrated and like really protective of, I guess, by a sense of blocking of bloggers in the store because I felt like what [Lucy] (ph) was saying wasn't really accurate.

THERAPIST: I do see it as you've been talking like initially you felt more sort of anxious in talking about what she had written recently and how it upset you. And then like just in the last couple of minutes you seem to feel less anxious.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And it seemed to me that, like I imagine that you were sort of worried a little more initially that like, ‘you're wrong,' or maybe either because of somebody I know or something that like is not okay for you to be angry with her or upset about what happened or something like that. CLIENT: No. Not exactly. What I was thinking was I like, I do not expect, like I'm not telling you this so that you will then tell about [Lucy] (ph) and somehow do something like that.

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: Because I'm like I have worry that I was going to think so she wants me to tell [Lucy] (sp) like piss off or down or something like that. Or like something like what, like I don't know, like she's your client so that's all good but mostly I'm aware that you wouldn't talk to her about that because that would be weird and like functionally she doesn't exist after your client (unclear). [00:25:34]

THERAPIST: Right.

(Pause): [00:25:34 00:25:39]

CLIENT: And the other thing was sort of going through like how I was feeling at the time and so like once I started to let go of the – like she's just going to be mad and so I'm not going to reply to her so I kind of like dropped that. And then I got to the, okay well, like why else would I want to argue about it. And the other reasons are like they're not personal really. Theoretical. So that made me less anxious. So I felt like, I was kind of like, ‘well, I am mad that you gave your, that someone reading this might inaccurately believe something about fat fashion blogging and I was like, ‘but I don't – again I was kind of like going like ‘and the store and this and that' and then I don't know I was just like, but none of that has to be said to [Lucy] (ph) like in response to her comments because initially I had kind of wrapped it all –

THERAPIST: There's a worried feeling that you are going to need to confront her about this but then realize that that's actually not going to help which was kind of a relief because you weren't looking forward to it or something like that?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And once I kind of got that it dropped like – you know most of my, ‘damn it, this person is wrong!' because I'm like well, ‘yes,' but we're not doing that part. I think that's where the – because it seemed to me when you mentioned the analogy, not analogy but the thing with Willard Mitt, that it came in and now I can see why because that was the thing that sort of made it clear to you that it just wasn't worth taking up with her.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: Because – and a lot of it was just like, not just be, ‘I don't think that's his name,' which she wouldn't be like, ‘no it's Willard, whatever, who cares.' Because it's a weird victory to know. But it was this really condescending (unclear) kind of thing and like, ‘you're wrong,' and like [Lucy] (ph) seemed, I felt like she was saying, ‘no, you're wrong, but I'm embarrassed for you that you are wrong. It's really awkward that I have to tell you how wrong you are.'

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: So yeah, I just, I dropped it. I felt good about it. And was like, ‘oops.' Which is usually, I spend way more time talking about it and should I say something, should I not? And I was pretty psyched that I was like, ‘okay, or do in have this (unclear) for 45 minutes but now I'm done. Like I don't need to continue thinking about this because –

(Pause): [00:29:14 00:29:24]

CLIENT: I guess it's because I sort of, like a lot of times I want to like explain like, ‘that's not true.' Like that's not an accurate description of this blog or store. It's more that I should just really clarify that or just kind of clarify that I was thinking like this is like I know how that clarification would go. It's not like, I don't know.

THERAPIST: It sounds like all over this is the worry about confrontation or people feeling pushed.

CLIENT: Yeah. And it, I was hoping it wasn't a comp like, this was going to be a confrontation and not a disagreement. And it's going to be your (unclear) not you're disagreeing with me.

THERAPIST: And yet, I think I'm pretty clear why you didn't want to do that with her and how sort of, how it feels like a big relief that that just doesn't seem like the way to go anyway. I guess I'm so, I am focusing back on the anxious parts and I'm not at all kind of questioning your (unclear) [00:31:39] and I think I can see how you got there. It's more like when you were feeling like you were going to need to confront her about it and I guess you were a little sort of revved up wanting to in a way. You also were pretty anxious about it.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean I was upset and also anxious about her reaction and also feeling anxious about like I would be really upset if this kick-starter didn't get money because of [Lucy's] (ph) comment. I wouldn't not be furious. But it was still, I wouldn't want to do it that way. I guess dropping the desire to correct her pretty much, I then felt very free to make a wholly separate, unrelated comment, just saying like, ‘hey.' A personal friend who made the blog post, ‘this is my experience,' or, ‘blah, blah, blah, hope you check it out, it's (unclear) fun.'

(Pause): [00:33:10 00:33:21]

CLIENT: And, too, that all happened and one of the, I guess one of the things that I felt good about it or felt kind of satisfying was, well anyway, I'll drop it or drop the direct response, I guess. (Unclear). I just did not address anything she said. So I was like, (unclear) passive/aggressively you know – no I just don't like know what I would want from that. It would be her – oh yeah. I'm like, ‘your perception is also accurate and she's not going to say that. Like, I guess like the ideal response would be, in my head would be for her to say, ‘you know, I felt very upset and attacked. I get that your experience has been really different but I felt like no one understood what I was saying.'

THERAPIST: It felt like you could let go of her thinking or wishing for her to be like the kind of person you would have wanted her to be there. CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And that provided some of the satisfaction. There's a part of me that's inclined to hold on to the wish for her to respond in a way that when you thought about it you kind of knew she wouldn't.

CLIENT: Yeah, and the other thing was that like when I was imagining her response I was like, ‘oh God, the next time I see her in public, she's going to lose it.' Like she'll get very upset and then tell everyone how I had been really cruel to her in this blog comment and that she saw me and I was like hostile or not nice. I could just see that all like spinning out.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And I'm like, ‘why (unclear) [00:35:54]

THERAPIST: (Cross talk)

CLIENT: Yeah, it was like, I know that I could go into that social event and just be like, ‘hey, what's up!' and I'm like ‘well, I can do that,' but I would want her to do the same but she's not.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: So that down the road anxiety –

THERAPIST: That reminds me of what you said initially about work and Chet I think like, ‘you know what? They're going to accommodate me, so I'm not going to work that hard, I'm not going to accommodate them.' Something like that. Like I try to do that and I don't get it back so I'm going to do that, something more (unclear) basically. [00:36:45]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Anyway it seemed similar in the end, so – you were going to drop this idea that you get it back and that they would respond the way that you want.

CLIENT: Yeah. Which, I mean emotionally it's different for work.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: Then for her.

(Pause): [00:37:11 00:37:22]

CLIENT: It's like I've not enjoyed the last like several times we socialize together. They weren't enjoyable. And she would periodically would very much like want to do something and kind of, I can't really explain, but I felt like she was sort of like, ‘hey, do you want to hang out,' and would also include this like side guilt trip, and an offer for help, to help me out with something, actually so that we could then hang out afterwards because otherwise we would each feel guilty, kind of, and I was like, and so I'd erase it down and I was like I had hoped that I don't know, it was like this whole thing was like, we're just not going to have the kind of friendship that I would like to have which is unfortunate and I can't get over feeling that way and I guess her comment that she felt that she was just angry all the time plus this other thing just made me feel like, ‘yes, we are not going to be friends,' which I always feel we are kind of (unclear) but realistically we actually weren't particularly friends. Like one of the reasons why seeing her (unclear) wasn't very pleasant was that like she would say nothing for like a (unclear) of time and then be like, ‘let's go something,' and then like dump all her like (unclear) angst. And I'm like, ‘well you didn't, like – well it would have been nice if I'd heard about this from like, ‘I met this guy,' and like the lead up as opposed to just the emotional dump.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And then (unclear) turn around it's just like hmm. You know (unintelligible) like, yes, we all do that sometimes. But it felt to me very much like a pattern that like I can't change her behavior so it backs her pattern of reacting and that tried like to not then the answer is no. I'm still anxious in that we still have so many mutual friends and because we still both live here are mutual friends are like kind of assume that we I don't know, talk a lot or hang out or are, you both look like professors so obviously you're friends. And I'm like, right. Like, we tried that and it didn't work. Yeah.

THERAPIST: We're going to stop. I'll see you on Thursday.

CLIENT: Thursday.

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