TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

[no dialog until 8:00 minutes]

CLIENT: Hi.

THERAPIST: Hi, come on in.

CLIENT: How are you?

THERAPIST: Good, thank you. [pause] You can begin.

CLIENT: Well, me and Steve got in a huge fight last night. That's made me like think about things again, made me think what's going on. [Client is very emotional and on the verge of tears for most of the interview.]

THERAPIST: What was the fight about?

CLIENT: Um, I was just-I was texting him, and he was at work, and he like took it the wrong way. It's like I was like bugging him pretty much. And I was just-you know, I was just shooting texts because I was home. And um... Like he would answer me on Facebook. But he wouldn't, you know, give a text or whatever. I was like, okay. Then I just-I saw that like he had his phone number like advertised on Facebook. Which I was like, that's not very safe to put your phone number out to the public. And he took it as I'm thinking that girls are calling him, that's what he said. I'm like, no, I just don't think it's safe like to have your personal phone number on Facebook. [9:50]

And that's where I like began. And he said that I was yelling at him about that. And I was like, "Nope, I just asked you a question why you had your phone number on Facebook." And he started with like, "You're doing it again," blah blah blah blah blah. Like, "This is not going to work." And he was like, "This is over," blah blah blah blah blah, and like rolled over and like didn't want to even talk to me. I'm like, how do you go from the person that like, "Oh, I love you so much," to "I don't want to be with you." And like, "Don't talk to me, don't touch me." And like I just-I don't get him at all. And like I think that's like something I can do without. Like how do you feel like that you can trust somebody if they're like one day super nice to you and like want to be in the relationship, and the next it's like over. You know.

THERAPIST: I was thinking that you both struggle with that, because you feel that way too at times.

CLIENT: I do, but like since like-I don't know. I've just been really-like since the medication I've been like really happy, and like social, and energetic, and not argumentative. And I'm able to look at him and be like he's miserable.

THERAPIST: You think he's unhappy?

CLIENT: Oh yeah. And I'm like, "[Can they give him? 11:45], I don't know, work less? Is work that makes-is that what made you unhappy?" He's like, "No, I'm just-it's a crappy job." And I'm like, "Okay." And I'm like, "Is it this relationship?" And he's like, "I'm not saying it's this relationship." And like he's just like a-seems to be like a miserable person, like whenever I talk to him. And I said to him-like he was like-I'm like, "You've been so negative lately." He was like, "Nothing's changed, Marlene." He's like, "You're just the positive one, and how am I supposed to like react to this like new you now?" That's what he said to me.

THERAPIST: Hm. That's an interesting comment. [12:30]

CLIENT: He was like, "You're all happy and positive now. Now I have to like adjust to who you are." I'm like, "Shouldn't that be like a good thing?" So I don't know. And like then in the morning he acts like everything's okay, and he's like-I'm still upset and he's like, "Why are you so sensitive?" And I'm like, "You pretty much broke up with me last night." And like nothing. Like it doesn't phase him at all.

THERAPIST: Did he feel he was doing that? Do you think it was a misunderstanding?

CLIENT: Nope. He said, "I was angry, Marlene."

THERAPIST: I'm sorry, he was just...?

CLIENT: Angry.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: "I was just angry." And I'm like, "It's okay to like be angry, but to be like be cruel, it's not okay." And then he tries to like turn it around, like, "Well, this is what you've been doing to me like this whole time." And like just because I mention I guess why your cell phone number's on Facebook I should not get that result. You know? I shouldn't get that reaction. I'm just like confused. And like he's always like, um, "I would trust you with a guy friendship." And I'm like-you know, like, "And you want to have girl friendship?" Like, "I'm not going to be okay with it, I'm not going to be comfortable, but I can't tell you what you can or cannot do." Like that's what I've said to him. So I like have a male friend now to see how like that is. Like I've never allowed myself to have like a male friendship in this relationship, to kind of see like the other side of things.

THERAPIST: Where'd you find him? [14:45]

CLIENT: At work. He's a student.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Very educated. Like we have the same values, same like work ethic. And just like we think the same way, which I can see-I can pick up him apart and see like his flaws because we think the same way, you know. We're very famil[iar]-we're very similar. And the way we look at relationships are very similar as well. But we pretty much like hang out, talk, he talks about like his relationships. I don't really talk about my boyfriend. But we like study together.

THERAPIST: When'd you decide to-was it something that evolved because you were studying together, or is it someone you decided to have a friend?

CLIENT: Yeah. Oh, I worked with him and he said-like we would talk, he would always be-and I was always interested, like because he's going through school, he's going to Johns Hopkins for his bachelor's, and he's got a year left and he's like-just would talk about school. And I'm in school, and he'd help me with like some of my school. And he has like a background in business and everything. So he's just like-I don't know, has a lot of experience with school. And he said, "Just like you-" Like I don't have parents that have like an education, I had to do this all on my own. And he's 30 and he's like going back to school. And so he just kind of related. But it was more like we were talking. Like he knows I have a boyfriend, he knows I have troubles. So I have another friend, another guy friend that like Steve's met, he's older, he's like in his 50s. He told me, "Oh, it's just because you're vulnerable this guy wants to be your friend." And I'm like, "I don't see it like that. I don't feel like I'm vulnerable."

THERAPIST: So your older friend is distrustful of this other guy? [17:00]

CLIENT: Right. I think. And I don't know. And like he's text me and said-like in the beginning, like, "I like you." And I said, "Well, I like you too, but I can only offer you a friendship." And he said he's fine with that. And he just like enjoys my company. Like can you have a friend of the opposite sex? Like I justPeople do every day, right?

THERAPIST: It depends on the circumstance. Yeah, absolutely it depends on the circumstances.

CLIENT: Yeah. Like when I'm likeI mean, he's a good looking guy and everything, but I just like want that friendship from him, I'm not looking for anything else. And he seems like he's dating quite a few people too, that where like he's just looking for a friendship too. Like that's what we're both missing out of our lives. Like someone to relate to. And I haven't told Steve. But I've been like much more relaxed knowing that like if I can trust myself in a situation with a male that's attractive and like educated then I can trust him if he had a friendship. [pause] I'm not sure if it's right. But like it's made me feel better. [18:30]

THERAPIST: In what ways?

CLIENT: Like that I'm actually-like somebody's actually like interested in having a conversation. I mean, Steve never wants to talk. Like and he's-like we talk, this-me and this other kid, we talk about everything. Like me and Steve don't have anything to relate to that well. And it's just-it's nice, you know?

THERAPIST: Do you enjoy spending time with him more than Steve?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I'm not so sure that's a friend.

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: No. You don't get a friend because you're feeling like your boyfriend's-your relationship with your boyfriend isn't meeting certain needs. I wouldn't really define that as a friend.

CLIENT: Right. Well, that's what I do with my girlfriends. Like it's this-I feel like he's one of my girlfriends. Like we talk about the same stuff. I don't have any desire to like make it into anything else. At all. Which kinda-it's nice to not, you know, be confused about a friendship. So far. I don't know. I'm justI don't know. [20:15]

THERAPIST: In the other situation, if Steve had a woman that he'd rather spend time with and talk to than you, would that be okay with you?

CLIENT: Probably not. I don't think this would be okay with him. And I'm at the point where I like... Like I've done everything for this kid. And like... I've tried therapy, I've helped him out in life. And I just... I really feel like this relationship's like breaking my spirit, you know? And I tell him that. And he says, "Don't be so sensitive." Like I honestly can like clearly say like... [pause] He's not changing, he's not changing for the better. I don't know what he's doing. And I don't feel like he loves me. Like I feel like actions speak louder than words. Like you can tell somebody you love them, but if you're pushing them away, and you're telling them that like, "This is not working." Like, "You're making me wrong." If somebody's like really upset and you're telling that to them, instead of like, "Oh my god, I love you, don't be upset." This is what I get. [22:00]

THERAPIST: You don't feel like he can comfort you.

CLIENT: He doesn't even try. He makes it worse. And he like pretty much does really, really mean-really mean things to me. And I'm like, I am not that person like he thinks I am. And I don't feel like I should be treated this way.

THERAPIST: Well, it's clear it's not simply that you feel like you're not a good match, you feel like he really mistreats you, and you have that sense a lot. And other times you'll also feel good about the relationship. And so I'm trying to put all those pieces together. And maybe the parts of you that feel good about it are much smaller now than the parts of you that feel very mistreated and misunderstood.

CLIENT: I think like when-this is what happens, he acts like the fight last night didn't happen. And he just-let's just go on, let's not talk about it. And it's like, you don't fight like that. That damages your relationship when you say things like that, like, "This is over. I don't want to be with you, I don't want to keep having this relationship with you." And then in the morning everything's okay? Like that's certainly not okay. Like how can you trust somebody?

THERAPIST: You don't have to trust him. You don't have to if you don't want to. [pause]

CLIENT: I don't trust him. And I thought it was just because of me. But it's just-it's seriously how he treats me sometimes. [pause] It's like he scares me. It's like borderline like-like mental abuse. Like you can't do that to somebody, and then like the next day like act like you love them. [crying] Like that's wrong. [pause] I can't do anything right now because we're in a lease, but I really can't live my life this way. [24:50]

THERAPIST: I appreciate how much pain you're in right now. and I'm very, very sorry about it. And I understand that you have really a lot of doubts about whether relationship is going to work for you. I think that the intensity of the pain you feel is-I'm not saying it's only about this by a long shot, but there's a way in which I think it's really heightened by all the experiences you had growing up, and it sort of feels almost like life or death. And I'm not saying you're in a good situation and it's great, but I think the intensity of it is coming from elsewhere.

CLIENT: If I can just describe to you like... [pause] If you're in bed with somebody and they tell you, "Get away from me," and, "Don't touch me, and just go to bed," and, "You need to stop talking." And like how would you feel?

THERAPIST: Do you feel trapped? [26:00]

CLIENT: I feel manipulated. And I don't even think he knows he's doing it. Like I feel like I'm pulled in a million different directions. I feel like one day he's super sweet, and then one day he helps out. And the other day like he's like a monster. Just because I did something to piss him off. And that's what he says to me. "You keep pissing me off." I just-I've never-I mean, I'm no angel, but I've never been this cruel to someone. Like I've never been in a relationship where somebody said that to me, "You just keep pissing me off, just keep doing this." You know? And then like the next morning have everything okay and he goes out to fish. And he gives me a hug and he just says, "Stop being so oversensitive." Like it's like, "You're not listening to how you actually hurt me today."

THERAPIST: Did you feel like your parents were erratic, like kind of all on or all off, hot and cold?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: I ask that only because, you know, you'd mentioned a while ago you learned that your mother was bipolar, which is usually one of the symptoms of it.

CLIENT: They are.

THERAPIST: But I'm not sure you've experienced her that way.

CLIENT: No. I mean, like when she had a fight-when we fought or whatever, she was-it was pretty extreme, but most of the time she's pretty-very like smothering and loving.

THERAPIST: What do you mean by smothering? [28:00]

CLIENT: Like just-she was always-she's a worrier, and she always wanted the best for us. And just not affectionate with hugs or whatever, but like very involved. I think-you know, I don't look at it as like this is like my parents involvement right now, I look at it like kind of-I feel really confused, because I feel like this guy's screwing with me, screwing with my emotions.

THERAPIST: You never have to stay in a relationship that feels, you know, problematic, or abusive. You never have to stay in that relationship. You are never so trapped that you don't have options. [pause]

CLIENT: I'm just confused. Because like all this can happen, and then he can be so nice to me. And act like nothing happened. Like how do you explain that? [pause]

THERAPIST: What do you mean?

CLIENT: How can someone be so mean, and like write you off, and then the next second everything be okay? Like how does that work?

THERAPIST: Well, you don't have that particular thing, but you know from your own experience you can feel very differently about someone from moment to moment. Feel a lot of hope and then a lot of despair.

CLIENT: But that's like what he's doing to me.

THERAPIST: Yeah, no, I understand. But I'm just saying to sort of relate to it. I'm not saying it's a good thing. You were just saying, "I don't understand." And I was saying, well-I was trying to relate it to something in your experience. [30:10]

CLIENT: Yeah, but I just-he was-he acts like he's just-has self-control, and he doesn't have anxiety, he doesn't have depression. But he walks around like so miserable. Like am I making him miserable?

THERAPIST: Is that what you're worried about?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: How would you be making him miserable?

CLIENT: Because I'm trying to like be around him, [however patient? 30:44], and it seems like that makes him miserable to make him happy.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I'm not sure where that question is coming from.

CLIENT: He just seems so unhappy. And then he takes it out on me.

THERAPIST: So you're worried whether you're the cause of it.

CLIENT: I think I'm not the cause of it, but I think he's blaming it on me. Like something's going on with him. Like I understand he opened up to me, said like he doesn't like where his life is, he's miserable at work. And then he was telling me that like everything's been so much better. And then this fight happened. But it's like he comes home, he's exhausted, he's grumpy. He wakes up, he's grumpy, I can't talk to him, he wants to be like away. It's like how-I don't understand. And he just says he's tired. And like not even that, like we have-he has like no sexual interest in me. Whatsoever. [32:20]

THERAPIST: Well, if he's depressed I can imagine that that would be true. You know, I'm not saying you should be happy about it.

CLIENT: I'm not happy about it.

THERAPIST: I know. I understand that.

CLIENT: But it's like I didn't do this to him. I didn't choose his office for him. It's like why is it directed towards me?

THERAPIST: Mm hm. Why are you being blamed for things you didn't do.

CLIENT: I know. Like I can understand like you come home, so I'm like-a bad day at work or whatever-I'm like, "You're on edge." But it's like he comes home and he's like, "See ya." Like he doesn't have a second for our relationship. Like he'll watch TV and zone out. I am not part of any-any thought. And like, you know, we talk about it, we talk about like how we need to spend more time with each other. And it's like a cycle. And it never stops. It's like one week it's good, next week we have a big fight, he threatens to leave. And then I'm supposed to like feel secure? What's new.

THERAPIST: What does that mean? I thought it was a very funny comment.

CLIENT: It's just this is what's been happening like [for/four?] years. [34:00]

THERAPIST: Are you not sure what to do with that part of what your distress is?

CLIENT: Yeah, I guess I blame myself.

THERAPIST: How is it your fault?

CLIENT: Because I was so like upset and depressed and like anxious all the time. And like I'm anxious about the relationship. And now like I'm trying to relax, and now like I feel like he's just not onboard with that. Like he can't forgive. And I don't feel like he's giving me a second shot. It's just what it is, like we're not doing anything about it. And we're living together. I was like, "All right, if you, you know, don't want to be in this relationship then you need to move out. You can't just live off of me." Like it doesn't work that way. And he was like, "Oh, I pay." And I'm like, "You pay half the rent, I pay everything else, which equals up to as much as, you know, the monthly rent is. Like you just-things don't go on the way they are, like if we break up." And he just-he doesn't realize that.

THERAPIST: The one thing that comes through when you're describing your relationship is you're feeling deprived.

CLIENT: Yeah, I feel-

THERAPIST: Kind of starved.

CLIENT: I feel neglected.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: And I told him that. Like I don't care that he can't afford things. Like all I want is his time and like attention. And like he can't even give me that? Like really, what is in this relationship? Like absolutely nothing. [36:00]

THERAPIST: Well, there's something, otherwise you wouldn't be there at all.

CLIENT: There's something when he's nice. And that's like now maybe once a month. And there's like I love him. Like I loved-I love him when he's at his best. But like he's really mean when he's on his horse. And I just think you can't do that to people, you have to like-I don't know, to care if I want your love. And like you're supposed to treat them differently. That's just how I feel. Like when I'm happy in our relationship like it's-it works. Like that person I spend a lot of time with, and like it just-it's not like what it is right now.

THERAPIST: Well, you've had several unhappy relationships that I think have really taken their toll on you.

CLIENT: Yeah, and I'm like getting older. It's like one day we talked about marriage, but the next day we talk about breaking up. It's really confusing.

THERAPIST: Yeah. It sounds like it. Deeply unsettling. There's not much security in that.

CLIENT: Like I can't talk to him, it's like... he doesn't want to hear it. He tells me I'm being like insensitive. Like if you can't talk to the person you live with, what is there? I don't know, I'm feeling like that today. And I just want to like keep feeling like that, because this is reality. Like it's like he can try to make it up to me, but it's going to happen again. It's kind of that war, and then like the positive. And I just need him to like give me an answer. Like if you don't want to be with me like you need to stop, you need to tell me so I can move on. And he says he wants to be with me. [39:00]

THERAPIST: I don't think he's going to leave you, Marlene. I don't think it's an issue, him feel[ing]-like him leaving you. He might feel very ambivalent about being with you, but I don't think he wants to leave you.

CLIENT: Then why say something like that?

THERAPIST: I don't think he knows what else to do. I don't think he knows what to do. I don't think it has anything to do with leaving you. I think if anyone is going to leave it would be you, not him.

CLIENT: I don't know. He tried leaving me once before and he came back 20 minutes later.

THERAPIST: I think he's deeply, deeply attached to you. The way he's attached to you may not be good enough for you, or not be right for you, but I don't think he's going to leave you. I think he's very, very confused himself. And I think he is very confused about his own life, as you've pointed out, and unhappy about feeling stuck in many ways, and I don't think he knows what to do. But I don't think he wants to leave you and I don't think he would. [40:00]

CLIENT: But why wouldn't you be like happy that there's somebody there for you? You know? Even though everything around you is crappy and you have this relationship to fall on. Why wouldn't that make him happy?

THERAPIST: Because I don't think that he feels he knows what to do with you either. I think he feels overwhelmed, I think he feels overwhelmed in so many ways. I think he feels overwhelmed in your relationship, he feels overwhelmed by meeting your needs. I just think he feels overwhelmed and so he's not happy because of it.

CLIENT: Do you think I'm asking too much?

THERAPIST: I was actually thinking that that was going to be your next question. And I don't actually knowI mean, that's a really hard question. But you know, what's too much? How do you even assess what too much is?

CLIENT: I would say too much would be somebody that's like constantly like needing your attention, and I don't. Like I don't even get attention from him.

THERAPIST: So where do you think that question came from if you don't think you are?

CLIENT: Why, it's like what I need too much for him. [sic] Because I know like any other relationship like what I'm asking for is nothing. And I'm the type of person that I would put everybody and anyone above myself. And I've put him above myself for years. So I just don't get it. And I've told him what I need from him. I just want to have a friendship with him, I want to go like-I wanted to hang out so he'd like have experiences. And I want like an intimate relationship, and like he can't give me that. But I can give him everything. It just doesn't seem fair. [42:10]

THERAPIST: Yeah, I was going to say. I was-the idea of fairness, and that it feels very unfair. You know, Marlene, we have a couple minutes left.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And I know that a few weeks ago when you came here and you were really just feeling upset.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And you felt even more so when you left, and upset about the session. So I want to try to help that not happen again.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: And see if there's a way that maybe we can bring closure to it, or maybe we just check in with how you're feeling now. Because I know-I mean, you're upset about the relationship and there's not much we can do about that, that's how you're feeling. But just so you feel that you can leave here and that you're in like an okay place.

CLIENT: Um, have you heard this in other relationships before?

THERAPIST: What in particular? Because there's a lot you're saying. So when you say had I heard this...

CLIENT: Has this happened before? Has anything good come from it?

THERAPIST: From... I'm sorry just...

CLIENT: Just like in the certain relationship that I'm in, where I'm more like dependent on-have they been able to reconcile?

THERAPIST: Well, things have to change. I mean, how you feel has to change, Steve would have to change. I mean, nothing is a lost cause, but there has to be some movement somewhere.

CLIENT: Yeah. [pause] I don't know, it makes me feel better, like the fact that like knowing that this is just how he's reacting because he just doesn't know what to do.

THERAPIST: I think that's true. I mean, I know you feel neglected. I don't think that's his intent. I don't think he knows what else to do. And knowing Steve I think he feels overwhelmed by many, many things in life. As you pointed out, his mom did a lot for him growing up and really in a sense, you know, didn't do right by him in terms of giving him the opportunity to develop the confidence to do things for himself. And I think he feels overwhelmed by so much in life. And you're a woman who's very out there and vocal and, you know, expressive of what you want and need, and I think there's a part of him that very much likes that, and I think there's a part of him that feels like he does not know what to do with that. He just doesn't know what to do with it. And that may not be good enough for you. Feeling that he-you know, that he, you know, doesn't know what to do with it, that might not be good enough for you. But I don't think he's intentionally trying to neglect you. I think he's avoiding certain things because he doesn't know how else to do them. [44:45]

CLIENT: Oh. That makes me feel better. Because I feel like he's just-like sometimes I just don't know who he is because he's so mean. Like I don't know where that comes from. And if it's more like he's overwhelmed that makes more sense, then just somebody being cruel to you.

THERAPIST: Well, we do need to stop for today. You can always feel free to contact me during the week if you need to.

CLIENT: Okay. Thank you.

THERAPIST: And I will see you next week.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Oh, on the 12th of November I won't be able to come. It's my exam.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Okay?

THERAPIST: Well, that's a couple weeks so I'll note it.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Okay, thank you Marlene.

CLIENT: Thank you.

THERAPIST: Okay, bye bye.

CLIENT: Bye.

END TRANSCRIPT