TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Are you okay?

CLIENT 1: Yeah, I'm fine. (Pause) He just has some... a problem with going to therapy, so... why don't you talk about that?

CLIENT 2: I have a problem going to therapy.

CLIENT 1: Yeah, you pretty much just said it to me (sniffing). What's your problem with therapy?

CLIENT 2: I don't' have a problem with therapy, Marlene (sp?). And since we can't communicate...

CLIENT 1: No, what did you just say to me in the waiting room?

CLIENT 2: I said I've never had to go to... well, no I didn't say that actually. I said...

CLIENT 1: What did you say?

CLIENT 2: Yeah, I said we're going to therapy, we're not even married.

CLIENT 1: So?

CLIENT 2: Right?

CLIENT 1: What's the problem with that?

CLIENT 2: And then I said I've never had to go to therapy before for anything else, something like that.

CLIENT 1: And you had an attitude about going to therapy, and...

CLIENT 2: You think I've had an attitude all morning, and I haven't. [0:01:02]

CLIENT 1: Yes, you have.

CLIENT 2: Okay.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 0:01:07)

CLIENT 1: I don't know, just frustrated.

THERAPIST: Yeah, well, clearly there's some whole meta-messages going on that I (chuckling)...

CLIENT 2: I've been trying to talk to her the entire morning, and I've just been getting negative feedback.

CLIENT 1: That's not true. You haven't tried to talk to me at all.

CLIENT 2: Okay. I think that's where we stand. [I mean] (ph), we can't talk to each other at all.

THERAPIST: Let me slow this down. Let me try and understand (chuckling) what's going on for each of you. So what... in what Steve said, what did you feel he was communicating? What did you hear?

CLIENT 1: He said... it's how he said it. He was like, what do you think the problem is? We're going to therapy, and we're not even married. Like, that's how he said it. [0:01:55]

THERAPIST: And so what did...? What was there... what was the implication? What did you feel like he was...? What was the implication of it?

CLIENT 1: Like, this... we shouldn't be... he... pretty much that we shouldn't be in therapy. That's what he said. And that's what you said. We shouldn't be in therapy.

CLIENT 2: I said that because you and me should be able to talk, we should be able to talk, and...

CLIENT 1: Okay, and we're not able to talk.

CLIENT 2: Well, we used to be able, we used to be able to talk to each other all the time.

CLIENT 1: Yeah.

CLIENT 2: You remember?

CLIENT 1: Not about important stuff. We never talked to each other about important stuff.

CLIENT 2: [What happens then] (ph)? (Crosstalk). We didn't?

CLIENT 1: No.

CLIENT 2: You're sure?

CLIENT 1: Yeah.

CLIENT 2: Okay. (Pause) All right, never mind.

THERAPIST: So were you...? This isn't... because... yeah, there's a lot of... there's something going on here about what you feel you guys are saying to each other. Did you say...? Were... do you feel discouraged at all in that you guys... that things aren't happening more sort of naturally or...? [0:03:00]

CLIENT 2: Yeah, I'm just... I'm frustrated that we haven't made any improvement at all since we started going here. It's just tough, you know?

THERAPIST: What...? Huh, okay.

CLIENT 2: That's the way I feel, at least. I mean, we've tried things, but we haven't gotten anywhere.

CLIENT 1: Because you haven't tried. You think it should just come natural. You haven't put any effort into it.

CLIENT 2: Do you see how you just go from... I just went from me talking about us to you pointing directly at me. Do you see how you did that? You don't even realize you do that. You do it all the time.

CLIENT 1: I realize I do that.

CLIENT 2: Yeah, so why don't you stop doing that, and focus on us?

CLIENT 1: Us means me doing all the work, so I pretty much... [0:03:56]

CLIENT 2: Okay, see this is where, this is where we hit a wall.

THERAPIST: Yeah, mm-hmm. Clearly.

CLIENT 2: Yeah. So we can't get over it. It's... it would have happened by now, and it hasn't., so...

CLIENT 1: What would've?

CLIENT 2: If we could have gotten over this whole either disagreement or whatever it is, we can't get past this point. Otherwise we'd be able to fix things. We can't. Otherwise we would've already fixed a lot of things. Do you not agree with me?

CLIENT 1: No, I don't agree with you.

CLIENT 2: Why?

THERAPIST: Because I feel like you have to put effort into fixing things, not just it happening. And I don't see that (sniffing).

THERAPIST: Well, I want to get back to what's going on right now between the two of you? [0:04:56] But I will say I've heard from both of you feeling like things have gotten better. I'm not saying that everything's great, but I've definitely heard that from both of you. So something has shifted this morning or today or over the week that's making you feel differently, which is fine. I want to talk about how you're feeling. But it does feel different. Especially you guys came in here last week, said... both of you said things feel a lot better. So something got lost. What do you think happened? (Pause)

CLIENT 2: I have no idea.

CLIENT 1: This whole week we haven't spent any time with each other. We've been arguing (sniffing), and you've been doing your own thing. You haven't spent time with me at all.

CLIENT 2: How much time do I have to do things? Like, in general...

CLIENT 1: It's the same for me, too.

CLIENT 2: Never mind just... in general, never mind just by myself.

CLIENT 1: If you don't have time for a relationship... [0:05:57]

CLIENT 2: No, that's not what I'm asking you.

CLIENT 1: Steve, you do have time. It's how you manage your time.

CLIENT 2: And when I'm actually by myself, what do you...? Never mind. I can't even...

CLIENT 1: Steve, you do have a lot of time.

CLIENT 2: I'm not [even going to go down] (ph) that path because it's not going to get us anywhere. (inaudible at 0:06:18) (Pause) You can't... you just always have a negative comeback. You always just want to butt heads with me.

CLIENT 1: Yeah, because it's always about (crosstalk).

CLIENT 2: I try talking to you, I do. I try a lot. I give you chances, and all you do is point out something negative that I've done or said. You said... and you say that's our problem. If you put in more effort... you don't talk about us, you talk about me. [0:07:03] You never... you don't ever...

CLIENT 1: You don't see that I put in effort?

CLIENT 2: You don't ever talk about, you don't ever talk about you. That's not what I'm saying. Are you hearing what I'm saying? (Pause)

CLIENT 1: Because I feel like I'm trying, and I don't feel like you're trying.

CLIENT 1: Yeah, but you need to talk about you also, (pause) not just me.

CLIENT 1: As in...?

THERAPIST: You were getting upset there talking about this. What's up...?

CLIENT 2: No, just it's ridiculous. She always has something negative to say about me, you know? She never has anything negative to say about herself. I know I make mistakes, I do all the time (sniffing). And then I try to fix them. (Pause) I don't know. [0:07:57]

CLIENT 1: This is like the whole morning. He woke up this way. Didn't want to go to therapy, didn't want to get out of bed. Like, I told him we had a half hour to leave. Like, you just don't take an initiative. You know today we had to go at 11:00, and I still have to wake you up. Like, and you've had an attitude ever since this morning. (Pause)

THERAPIST: Do you feel that Steve is bringing you here, saying that you're the problem?

CLIENT 2: No, not at all. That has nothing to do with anything.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT 2: No. Just what she's saying... she's making what she's saying... it's... she's making what she's saying out to be more than it is. [0:09:01]

THERAPIST: Well, how do you mean?

CLIENT 2: She's just making everything more dramatic than it really is. Like, she's blowing... she's making it out to be a bigger issue than it really was. If anything ever happened this morning... she said she had a hard time getting me out of bed. She went downstairs, she said we have to be going to the therapist. I said, yeah, I know, because I was already awake. She made that out to be more than it was.

CLIENT 1: You didn't know. You go, oh, really? How is that I know?

CLIENT 2: I was being sarcastic. We go every Tuesday. Why wouldn't we go this Tuesday? How do you...?

CLIENT 1: You're really twisting things.

CLIENT 2: How do you not pick up on that stuff?

CLIENT 1: You're really twisting things now.

CLIENT 2: What am I...? I'm not even twisting anything. What am I twisting? You have no idea at all.

CLIENT 1: Oh, really?

CLIENT 2: Yeah, you're on the completely other page. [0:09:57] (Chuckling) I'm just frustrated, that's all. That's why I'm like this right now, just frustrated.

THERAPIST: Yeah, you both are very frustrated. So we have to figure out a way in which you can be frustrated and sometimes frustrated at the same time without making it worse for both of you.

CLIENT 2: Yeah. (Pause)

THERAPIST: So it sounds... one of the things that you're frustrated by, Steve, is that you don't feel Marlene is giving you the benefit of the doubt.

CLIENT 2: That she's what?

THERAPIST: Not giving you the benefit of the doubt. No?

CLIENT 2: No, no, that doesn't have anything to do with it. It's just I always get from her... she points out negative things that I do. [0:10:56] And it just bothers me that she doesn't try to talk or work with me. She'll just state the obvious all the time and then restate the obvious a different way. And then she'll ask a stupid question. She'll say, do you see how... do you see what you're doing? Do you...? Why are you...? You know? She'll just do something like that and rub it in my face.

THERAPIST: So you feel like she's putting you down.

CLIENT 2: No, she's just wasting time. She's going in circles, and I don't, I don't' know how else to explain it. She's repeating herself over and over and over again about the same thing, just a different way.

THERAPIST: And you're...

CLIENT 2: See that look on her face? She looks at me like that all the time.

CLIENT 1: When we argue.

THERAPIST: What is that...? What do you feel she's...? I can't really see. What do you feel like Marlene is conveying in that look? What is she sort of communicating to you in that look? [0:12:00]

CLIENT 2: She's just trying to... I don't know. I don't even know what it means. I just get all...

CLIENT 1: It means something (crosstalk)...

CLIENT 2: I just get it all the time.

THERAPIST: To your mind it clearly means something bad. It's not something (inaudible at 0:12:12).

CLIENT 2: Well, it's not something good. No, I know she gives me that look all the time, and it's just like she's just waiting for me to say something to just put her over the edge or something. I don't know.

THERAPIST: That's to mess up? She's waiting for you to mess up?

CLIENT 2: No, no, no. She's... she just... I don't know. I don't know how to explain it, I guess. (Pause)

THERAPIST: Did you feel, Marlene, when Steve said what he said that he doesn't care? Is that how you heard what he said?

CLIENT 1: No.

THERAPIST: What did you hear? [0:13:00] (Pause)

CLIENT 1: I don't know. I'm not understanding what he's... I don't understand what he means. I don't understand (crying). (Pause) [0:14:00] I don't know what to say.

CLIENT 2: Why? (Pause) You don't know? (Pause) (Sniffing)

CLIENT 1: I just feel like you get this attitude against me, and there's nothing I can say that's not going to piss you off.

THERAPIST: Well, you... it sounds like you both feel that way...

CLIENT 2: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That you guys are each coming into it with an attitude. And it's like a lose-lose situation. You're both feeling that way, it seems like.

CLIENT 2: I guess. I don't... (Sniffing, clearing throat)

CLIENT 1: Like, I can't say anything without him getting defensive. [0:14:57] And then I try to re-explain myself in a way that's not coming at him. And he's still defensive. And it's like, I can't get past that for him to understand what I'm trying to tell him.

CLIENT 2: You don't need to re-explain anything to me more than once.

CLIENT 1: Well, you take it the wrong way.

CLIENT 2: I told you that a million times, so why would you re-explain it if I'm taking it the wrong way? Wouldn't you think that'd piss me off more or get...? I'd get more aggravated that you said it again?

CLIENT 1: I wouldn't... I don't understand why you get aggravated to begin with.

CLIENT 2: It's not for you to understand.

CLIENT 1: Why?

CLIENT 2: (Sniffing) (Pause) What do you mean why?

CLIENT 1: Why isn't it for me to understand? It makes no sense.

CLIENT 2: You don't even know what I mean.

CLIENT 1: Why don't you explain what you mean? [0:15:55]

CLIENT 2: If I was talking to somebody and I were pissing them off, I don't need to know the reason why I'm pissing them off to understand not to do it. You don't, you don't get that?

CLIENT 1: But if it's just something so simple and you're just getting angry about it...

CLIENT 2: That's not the point. It doesn't matter how simple it is. You don't understand what I'm saying, do you?

CLIENT 1: It seems like everything I say to you pisses you off.

CLIENT 2: It's because of the way you say it. I told you this a million times. Have you ever heard me say that? Yes, you have, right? Yes. It's the way you say things.

THERAPIST: And what is that way? What is that way?

CLIENT 2: It's not like a particular way that I can, like, outline (sniffing). It... I wish I could give you an example, but I don't even know where to start. [0:16:57] (Pause) Rather than her just saying it, she has to go about making it really difficult for no reason. I don't... it happens all the time, though. I say that a lot, don't I? (Sniffing, clearing throat) (Pause) Do you think I'm just saying that to say it? Or saying it to be mean? (Pause) [0:17:58]

CLIENT 1: I just think it's just, like, something really stupid, and you're annoyed by something I say. Like, we were in the car, and he was talking about, his buddy said he got color. And I was like, well, who's your buddy? And you're like, I already told you about it. I'm like, well, I'm interested in who your friends are, and you're like, didn't you...? I already had this conversation with you. I told you all about him. And I'm just asking him a question, and he comes at me like that. (Sniffing)

CLIENT 2: Okay, here's a good example how she goes about asking me things. When I got from one store to the other store, when I got transferred working for Barnes and Noble... anyway (ph) I started telling her who I'm working with, how old they are. She'll drill me with questions like, how old are they? What do they look like? Are they a boy, or are they a girl? Are you attracted to them if they're a girl or not? Should...?

CLIENT 1: When did I ever ask you if you were attracted to them? [0:19:03]

CLIENT 2: You asked me, you ask me that all the time when I get transferred to a new department or a new store. You don't... maybe you don't realize it, but you ask me that.

CLIENT 1: I've never, I've never asked you that.

CLIENT 2: You've asked me that, like, at last three times...

CLIENT 1: I asked you who your friends are.

CLIENT 2: I'd gone from Cheshire to Wallingford (sp?), from Wallingford to Monmouth, and from Monmouth to Portland (sp?). You haven't done it with the Portland one yet. But you've done it with the other two stores.

CLIENT 1: Yeah, and I gave the... and I haven't done that with...

CLIENT 2: The Portland store, you haven't, right, I know. Yet.

CLIENT 1: Right, right. No, not yet. I trust you now.

CLIENT 2: All of a sudden you trust me?

CLIENT 1: Yes, I am trying to trust you.

CLIENT 2: You're trying? You said you're trying. That doesn't mean you're trusting me, that means you're trying to trust me.

CLIENT 1: No, I am pretty much very trusting with you. Like, I've given that up to fear about things like that. And...

CLIENT 2: It sounds like you're making your mind up right now. [0:19:57]

CLIENT 1: No, it isn't. And you haven't even seen that, and you're just defensive, think I'm going to ask you all these questions. But I'm just asking you a simple question.

CLIENT 2: (Sniffing) Anyway, what happens is I'll get transferred to a store and then she'll just start drilling me with all these questions, right? Who do you work with? Are they your age? Do you know anything about them? What have you talked to about them with? Just questions you just wouldn't ask a person one after the next after the next after the next. Like, if I was going to share any information with her that I felt comfortable talking to her about, I would do that. But, since I've got drilled with questions, now I have the natural response of just not saying anything when I go to a new store.

CLIENT 1: Right, weren't we supposed to just put everything... or try to put everything away and start new? And that's what I've been doing, and obviously you haven't. And that's what I wanted...

CLIENT 2: (Crosstalk) the idea of what we should try to do, she's...

CLIENT 1: Well, that's what I've been doing, but you can't do that? I have, and you haven't acknowledged that. [0:21:01]

CLIENT 2: [Can't win it] (ph). (Sniff) Can't just start from scratch without just wiping all of whatever we had were problems away. You can't do that.

CLIENT 1: Why not? Why can't you just keep going?

CLIENT 2: So when we left last time I said I was going to do that?

CLIENT 1: Yeah.

CLIENT 2: When did I say that?

CLIENT 1: We both agreed we would try to do that, that we...

CLIENT 2: In theory, yes.

THERAPIST: In theory that you were going to try harder?

CLIENT 2: Meaning that... (Crying) because I remember looking at you when we had to figure out how to go about putting stuff aside. That if it at all was possible that we could take all those feelings and put them in a box, push them off to the side, that maybe we could start from scratch if we could do that. And that's a big if. [0:21:59]

CLIENT 1: I have... I was able to do that.

CLIENT 2: Right.

CLIENT 1: I have, and I'm surprised how...

CLIENT 2: Marlene, nothing's changed over the last week, since the previous session.

CLIENT 1: Are you kidding me?

CLIENT 2: No, I'm not.

CLIENT 1: Wow, you give me no credit, do you?

CLIENT 2: Marlene, how can you even say that? I haven't even seen you that much? We've been working. How can you say that's gone into effect that much (sniffing)?

CLIENT 1: Because I feel like stress... I'm not stressing myself about stupid little things about who you work with. Like, I don't care any more.

CLIENT 2: You shouldn't have done it from the beginning, anyway. That's why we're in this position.

THERAPIST: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait. I have to say, Marlene's try...

CLIENT 2: (Sniffing, chuckling)

THERAPIST: I mean, that's sort of giving her a ding for past behavior. I'm not... I don't want to be hard on you, and I know you're feeling like... I don't want either of you to feel like you're under attack or on the defensive. But, if Marlene's doing something differently that she should have done it before, there's not much she can do about before. But she can do something about now. [0:21:59]

CLIENT 2: No, I know. I know she's trying. I realize that. That's not what I'm saying. (Pause)

CLIENT 1: You just said I wasn't trying. Now you're saying that I am trying? Like, how do you go from one statement to the next? Like, I don't understand that.

CLIENT 2: What are you talking about?

CLIENT 1: You told me that I wasn't trying.

CLIENT 2: When did I say that?

CLIENT 1: You just said that, that nothing's changed.

THERAPIST: Well, it sounds like you were saying that when you were feeling more defensive. And when I asked you about it you were like, I recognize that Marlene's trying. This reminds me of the first session you guys came in when you were just, like, both crying the whole time. And I feel like I'm attending a funeral, it's like something really... and I... people's emotions are real, so when people are really upset I believe there's something to be upset about.

CLIENT 2: (Sniffing) Yeah. [0:23:58]

THERAPIST: And so there's something that's deeply upsetting you guys. (Pause)

CLIENT 2: (Sniffing) Yeah. (Pause) Not that this has anything to do with what we're talking about, but now that we have a day off we both have stuff to do. One way that I can temporarily put everything off to the side is if I get some alone time by myself. I know Marlene doesn't like when I do that because she wants to be with me. But... and it's been a problem in the past, like, a big problem. Like, I used to have to go drive to get my paycheck, and I used to like doing that by myself because I could just be by myself and not have to worry about doing work and just feel like I have some type of freedom. [0:25:06]

CLIENT 1: Yeah, you get that all the time. This is like...

CLIENT 2: Driving back and forth to work?

CLIENT 1: Steve, I get alone time when you're not around. I get alone time before work or after work. You have a lot more time to yourself than you even notice. And then we don't have any time together. And then on your day off you don't want to spend any time with me (crying).

CLIENT 2: No, that's not, that's not...

CLIENT 1: That's how it is. The problem is we don't have any time together.

CLIENT 2: I know, Marlene. I have one day off a week. I realize that. Driving back and forth to work I don't consider time by myself. I hope you realize that.

CLIENT 1: Steve, you go to work for 2:30 PM. Like, you have time in the day to do stuff. [0:25:59]

CLIENT 2: 2:30 PM? What are you talking about? The one day that I close?

CLIENT 1: You only (ph) work in the... no. You go to work in the afternoon, or you get out at 3:00, or you have shorter shifts than I do. You have a lot more time than you know.

CLIENT 2: I'm not trying to compare jobs. It sounds like that's the direction you're going.

CLIENT 1: But I feel like you're able to work, and you're able to do you. But you're not able to do us or help out at the house. You can do work, and you can do you. That's not fair.

CLIENT 2: (Sniffing) That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about...

CLIENT 1: But that's how it is. Like, I have all the responsibilities, and I don't have any choice. Like, I don't get to spend any time with you at all (crying). And that's a problem. [0:26:55] And then you want your free time. How is that a relationship? It's almost, like, not worth it.

CLIENT 2: You can see how this is a problem (sniffing).

THERAPIST: Yeah, and it's a problem in part because I think you're talking about two different things there (crosstalk).

CLIENT 2: Yeah, we are talking about two different things. I was trying to talk about time that I can use to put my stress and feelings to the side. And all of a sudden we're talking about something different.

CLIENT 1: How is that something different?

THERAPIST: Well, it sounds like... right, because where Steve was going with this, it sounded like you... that you felt Steve was saying, look, I need... like, somehow that you were excluded. Like, he needs time for himself but not for the two of you, that somehow you're being excluded from something.

CLIENT 1: But he takes the time for himself all the time. (Crying) And he hasn't spent any time on the relationship, so I don't get it. I really don't get it. [0:28:02]

CLIENT 2: I could understand if things were a little different. Like, if, say, I did go out and do stuff when I wasn't at work and then we [came back] (ph) to work on our relationship, I could understand that's what you're talking about. But I don't even go out and do anything, Marlene, I go to work, and I come home. That's it.

CLIENT 1: That's... that's not my problem, that's not my fault.

CLIENT 2: I don't hang out with friends, I don't do... I'm not saying it, I'm not saying it is. I didn't say it was.

CLIENT 1: Like, I really feel the problem is you don't know how to manage your time, and you're selfish. Like, it's all about you and how you can have time to yourself.

CLIENT 2: Marlene, I'm trying to tell you how I can help us work on things. You need to let me have a little bit of time by myself. [0:28:58]

CLIENT 1: You have time by yourself all the time.

THERAPIST: What...? Let me...

CLIENT 2: Never mind.

THERAPIST: No, no, no, no, no...

CLIENT 2: I can't...

THERAPIST: I will... I'm going to help you guys. Let's not... I don't want to do the never mind. I mind, and I want to help you guys talk about this more. So what do you... when you say time by yourself, what time are you... would you life more of or differently?

CLIENT 2: (Chuckling) It's not something I can specify like, I like 3:30s in the afternoon. That's not what I'm saying. Just it comes to my day off... I mean, yeah, I'm not trying to make a big deal about it, but I don't feel I am... I still feel like I'm living at my mother's house.

THERAPIST: How?

CLIENT 2: I don't feel like I have the freedom to be able to do anything. It sucks, it's my only day off (chuckling).

CLIENT 1: It's like you can't do both, Steve. You can't work, have free time to yourself, and be in a relationship. [0:30:00]

THERAPIST: Well, then I want to stop and ask each of you what you mean on (inaudible at 0:30:05). So how... are there particular things that Marlene does that makes you feel like you don't ... is it what she says or what she does that makes you feel you don't have that freedom?

CLIENT 2: She just (sighing)... I don't know. I just don't get the feeling that she'll let me do whatever I want, you know what I mean? I just... I don't... I just feel so tied down (crying, sniffing). I don't know how else to explain it. I can't point anything out, you know, this is the reason. I just feel super tied down. I don't feel like it's my... I don't feel like it's my day off. [0:30:58] (Pause) It's a horrible feeling because I only get one day off. (Pause)

CLIENT 1: I think that's how we're going to differ throughout this relationship. And I feel like (chuckling) you have so much free time, and you don't even see it.

CLIENT 2: Marlene, how many days off have you gotten in the past ten days?

CLIENT 1: I get more days off, I understand that, but...

CLIENT 2: I get one (sniffing).

CLIENT 1: But I'm doing stuff that has to do with the house, the bills, or working overtime.

THERAPIST: I think you guys are talking about something more beyond sort of practical and hours in the day. You're talking about a feeling. And when you're talking about feelings, you're talking about the feeling, it might be tied to things that are going on in the day... [0:31:57]

CLIENT 1: I... what my problem is... and I can just tell you straight off the bat, you do not take time to have a relationship with me (crying). So you're talking about time to yourself, which annoys me because...

CLIENT 2: I know it does.

CLIENT 1: We're by... we're not with each other ever. So how am I tying you down (crying)? I'm never with you. Never. (Pause)

CLIENT 2: Marlene, you're always with you.

CLIENT 1: No, I'm not, I'm always at work...

CLIENT 2: Marlene, physically, yes. But you... do you know how much you've used the cell phone to your advantage just to stay in contact with me? Do you (crosstalk)?

CLIENT 1: Do (ph) the same thing.

CLIENT 2: Yeah, I say hi. Marlene, I got home yesterday from work, and I lay down. [0:32:58] You were... it seemed like you were giving me a hard time because I was taking a nap.

CLIENT 1: I was...

CLIENT 2: You said, oh, I thought you'd be out fishing.

CLIENT 1: I was (crosstalk)...

CLIENT 2: I fell asleep and then you kept...

CLIENT 1: That's a really good example because I was actually being nice, and he...

CLIENT 2: Yes, for once, you were being nice.

CLIENT 1: He was giving me attitude, like I was attacking him. And I was just saying hi, that's it, like he does when he's at work, and I don't... if you don't answer me, it's not a big deal. I'm just texting you. And yes, in the past I have been like that, and I am sorry. But I am actually trying to be a different person in this relationship.

CLIENT 2: How am I supposed to know that, Marlene? You've ever taken the time to say it to me like that. Otherwise, I would have thought different.

CLIENT 1: I thought that was obvious because we're going to counseling.

CLIENT 2: How am I supposed to read your mind? I don't have those skills. I can't read your mind. [0:33:54] I'm just going to think the same old thing, the thing... the way things have always been.

CLIENT 1: I think that's why we fight, is because I like to see the action, and that's me. And you can tell me something until you [blew this up] (ph), blue in the face. And, I mean, if you don't do it, I'm not going to recognize it. And with you I have to straight up tell you? I figured you'd be able to notice that. (Pause)

CLIENT 2: Marlene, if I don't answer the phone when you call, I've looked at my phone before. I've seen 35 missed phone calls.

CLIENT 1: Not recently (chuckling).

CLIENT 2: Yes!

CLIENT 1: No!

CLIENT 2: Within the past three months. Yes.

CLIENT 1: No, no you haven't.

CLIENT 2: I'm sorry, you... this is a perfect time for you to say that (Sniffing), to deny that.

THERAPIST: Well, let me just ask, so, I mean...

CLIENT 2: That's beyond ridiculous.

THERAPIST: Okay, so if you... so if Marlene's... I'm not saying the validity of this at all (chuckling), but if Marlene's calling you that often, say she is, what upsets you about that? [0:35:01] What is... what's hurting you? It's not like you're pissed off. You're hurt. What is hurting you? (Pause)

CLIENT 2: I just don't understand why just can't leave me alone (Sniffing).

CLIENT 1: Well, why don't you have your freedom and we break up? You want to be left alone.

CLIENT 2: No, just... that's not what I'm talking about. Like, if I don't answer the phone, just... I'll talk to you about it later if you're really that curious. You don't need to call me back 35 times (sniffing). Like, do you see the level that you take this to?

CLIENT 1: Maybe because we don't have time together.

CLIENT 2: But that doesn't mean you need to bring it through my... through the cell phone (chuckling). Like, that's a way that we can communicate if we need to. (Pause) (Sniffing)

CLIENT 1: I didn't know it stressed (ph) you out that much. I won't text or call you at all. [0:35:59]

CLIENT 2: Do you see how we just go from one negative to the total opposite without even meeting in the middle?

THERAPIST: Look, your relationship is deeply important to both of you. But the way you talk about these particular issues, I feel like there's so much at stake, far beyond I understand right now. Like, so much is at stake in each of these actions.

CLIENT 2: (Sighing) If I tell her something, the way that I feel, we don't ... we're supposed to meet in the middle somewhere and figure something out and work on the relationship. That point never happens. It... she just told me... I just told her how I felt about the phone, and then she just brought it to total opposite, said, fine, I'll never call you again. Don't worry about it, I won't send you a text message ever again. That's just how we figure things out.

THERAPIST: So what would you've liked Marlene to say in this particular moment? What would have felt good? [0:36:59]

CLIENT 2: It would... what she said, I didn't realize you felt that way. I... (Sighing) (Pause) More of understanding than...

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT 2: Than anything else. Not like, fine, I'll never do that again. I just... I get those instant answers from her all the time. And she doesn't either like hearing what I have to say or she disagrees with it. She'll just give me that response immediately. (Pause) And it just... it just makes me feel like... I don't know. It's just basically like a whatever answer, you know what I mean? [0:37:55] And she used to say all the time, too. Thank God she stopped saying that. (Sighing) I mean, it just... I don't know. It's not good (sniffing).

THERAPIST: Well, I have a couple of thoughts. One is, I can see how this particular issue is... really is like...

CLIENT 2: It's on another level.

THERAPIST: Well, works against you because you're saying, Steve, that you want sort of the freedom and flexibility and not feeling like there's a particular set of expectations that you have to meet. And you, Marlene, feel like Steve isn't making the effort (chuckling) to meet your expectations about the relationship and what you want from him in a lot of different ways. So you're pushing against each other very strongly?

CLIENT 2: All the time, all of the time. Even when we're relaxed, even while we're relaxed. Like, lying down next to each other in bed, we still have the same feelings. [0:38:58] They never get... I don't know. Yeah, (inaudible at 0:39:03) that's exactly what's going on. (Pause)

THERAPIST: Okay, a couple thoughts. Where to start (chuckling)? Do you feel that you each understand what the other person is saying? I don't... you don't have to agree with it, but like that, Steve, Marlene's saying that she feels rejected and excluded...

CLIENT 2: Yeah, I know.

THERAPIST: She wants you to come... let's say you have to agree with it. And then Steve is saying that he doesn't feel that he can be himself, that he has to be what you want him to be.

CLIENT 1: I think that's crap. I think it's crap.

THERAPIST: Well, but it's how... okay, I'm not asking you to assess the validity. I'm simply saying this is how each of you feels.

CLIENT 1: No, I feel not rejected. I feel like he doesn't want to put anything into this relationship (crying).

THERAPIST: Well, why not? What's your theory as to why he would...?

CLIENT 1: I have no idea. (Pause) I have no idea. (Pause)

CLIENT 2: Can I (inaudible at 0:40:18)? Thank you. (Pause) (Sighing, sniffing)

CLIENT 1: I just think that's his personality. I think you were spoiled as a kid, and you feel like you don't need responsibility or you just want to do whatever you want to do. And maybe this isn't the right relationship for you. [0:40:59]

CLIENT 2: See how she has these feelings, like, already set in her mind before she goes to analyze what she's going to do or say? Can you see that?

THERAPIST: I understand, but I think you both do that. I mean, I do think you both do that.

CLIENT 2: I do that because of what's happened in the past. I just know... because every time I think that, it happens. It's just the way it's going to be.

THERAPIST: One thing... I don't want to move away from what you're talking about, but one thing I'm struck... I mean, you... when I made comments today, you were like, well, it's always like this. You both said that. But I've seen you guys in here, and it's not always like this every session. It seems like sometimes you guys are doing a lot better than other times, like, dramatically different. Last week was a dramatically different session. So I'm not sure what happens that things really feel like they fall apart.

CLIENT 1: He doesn't continue. He does the nice things, and then he stops. He tries in the relationship, then he stops. [0:42:02]

THERAPIST: And you feel like he was trying before but not this past week?

CLIENT 1: Absolutely.

THERAPIST: And what did he do differently?

CLIENT 1: He did everything. He tried to help out with the house, he tried to be around more. He just was active in this relationship, and this week he just wants to go out and fish and doesn't help me with the house (sniffing), isn't affectionate, isn't there. Like, how do you shut off in one week (crying)? (Pause)

CLIENT 2: [I don't think I've been doing] (ph) anything different.

THERAPIST: Well, if you were different this week, say you were very different, it sounds like you feel like you go to the worst-case scenario. [0:42:58] Like, maybe it's an off week, but last week was great. So hopefully next week will be great. I'm not saying you should think that way, but that's not what comes to your mind.

CLIENT 1: Actually hearing all this (pause) I don't really feel very positive about this relationship (inaudible at 0:43:21) (crying). I feel like I put in everything, and I don't get anything in return. And that's why I'm always up your butt. Like, I 'm just... I just try, and I feel like I'm doing everything. And it's like I'm in a relationship by myself. You're not present at all. And that's why I am so critical because my needs are not met in this relationship. [0:43:59]

THERAPIST: Each of you when you're feeling very hurt feels like the other person is doing something to you that's negative. I think you're both doing things because you don't know what else to do, and you're feeling like, I'm going to do the one thing I know how to do. But you each interpret the other person's behavior as you're trying to... the other person's trying to hurt you or make things difficult and so forth. I don't think that's what you're doing with each other. As you were saying, Marlene, you don't know what else to do. What you do might antagonize Steve, or he may feel antagonized by it. But that's not your intent. You do not know what else to do. (Pause)

CLIENT 1: Right.

THERAPIST: And you're reading pretty negative emotion... negative motivations that make it very difficult to start anywhere. [0:44:55]

CLIENT 1: Yeah, after somebody just tells you they want to be left alone, how do you...?

THERAPIST: But he's not trying to tell you because he doesn't like you or he... he may be frustrated with you, but I think that this... I mean, what... see, I... well, it's interesting because you started going somewhere with that, Steve, in terms of a way in which you manage how you feel. Now, again, I'm not saying therefore he should be left alone. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying it's in a different context than it feels to you. And this is both ways, it's in a different context. It's not... you're interpreting each other's being against you. What Marlene isn't trying...

CLIENT 2: Oh, all... with everything.

THERAPIST: Marlene isn't trying to go against you. She's trying to get you to come toward her, and she doesn't know how to do it. And so you feel like she's riding you, and I'm not saying whether she is or isn't. But she doesn't know what else to do.

CLIENT 2: No, I totally understand that 110%, and I wouldn't feel like she was riding me for any reason if she hadn't called me that many times just... she's been on my back for a long time. [0:46:05] And yes, she's tried to let that go about certain things for a certain amount of time. But it just hasn't worked, and it just keeps coming back, so...

THERAPIST: Well, it sounds like she hasn't asked you anything about Portland so far. So she needs some credit for that.

CLIENT 2: Yes.

THERAPIST: You guys have got to get... Steve may not... may feel ambivalent about being here, but he comes every week. And maybe Marlene's had a quote, unquote, bad track record in the past, whatever that means, but she's trying. And she's making a very concerted effort to do things differently. I can't stress enough that ultimately it's up to you guys to decide what you want to do with this relationship. It's not me to tell you what to do at these... this is your choice, and it's your life. But I can... I would like to help you sort of see that you're doing... you are... you actually each are trying. Showing up is trying. It may not be enough, it may not feel like enough, it may not be enough. But it's something. [0:46:59] And, if you guys are just going to sort of go back and say, see, you see, you see, you see, it doesn't get you anywhere.

CLIENT 1: But, if it's trying and then you know that that person's going to give you attitude about coming every day they have to come, it's just uncomfortable.

THERAPIST: Does it feel like that that happens every week?

CLIENT 1: Yes. And then he throws, this is my only day off in my face. Well, I'm so sorry.

CLIENT 2: It's not your... I never said one...

CLIENT 1: But you punish me because you have this huge attitude.

CLIENT 2: How do I punish you?

CLIENT 1: You have this attitude.

THERAPIST: Well, I actually both... we're going to need to stop. I know this is a really tough place. But you've both... I... if you could carry with you, I mean, really hold on to the fact that neither of you are trying to hurt each other... Marlene isn't trying to hurt you.

CLIENT 2: No, I know.

THERAPIST: Steve isn't trying... Steve is really not trying to hurt you. He does not know what else to do right now, that you're doing what you know how to do, which isn't working. [0:47:59] But that's what you're doing because you don't know what else to do right now.

CLIENT 2: I know.

THERAPIST: And I really would... if you guys could hold on to that, I think that would be great because I think even that will make you feel a little bit calmer, not entirely. But the other thing I want to say... I mean, you guys are clearly both very, very stressed out. And I think that that's making things very hard, too. And, I mean, you have a lot of other feelings besides stress, but you're both really stressed out. And I'd like to talk to you guys about that, too, how you feel and also just practically, maybe what the two of you can do about that. We do need to stop. I could do this... if this time works for you, I have 11:15. Would that work for you? You said that morning is better.

CLIENT 2: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Is this a good time? Okay. I will... I'll see you next week then, 11:15.

CLIENT 2: Okay.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT 2: Thank you.

END TRANSCRIPT