TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Sorry again about my schedule and the [snags at the end of the day.] (ph)

CLIENT: Also as it turns out the reason why (inaudible at 0:00:15) enthusiastic about switching this week has not happened.

THERAPIST: OK. Well, I'm glad it didn't mess things up then.

CLIENT: Yea. (pause) So I've still been thinking about, I guess, for me, one of the things that I think about with being sort of anxious about confronting this or kind of having a disagreement is I'm very reluctant to drop friends consciously. [0:01:05] I mean, there's obviously a bunch like, nah, they're not my… but once we… one of them, "Oh, yea. We're friends," just kind of stuck. And I definitely think that I let that go too far sometimes. Where (inaudible at 0:01:29) friendship and now it's way toxic. And I keep on…

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: They're still like items so that previous friendship (inaudible at 0:01:42) and kind of be like, "Well, but maybe." They're having it bad.

THERAPIST: [Two years.] (ph)

CLIENT: Yes. Five years, whatever. (pause) [0:02:00] Yea, it's just… it's I mean, I don't know if it's like my mom has commented on it. Not in the same but she's mentioned that I'm a very loyal friend which is true. (pause) But I think I let that, I guess, loyalty to the friendship… I don't know. It was almost like I become more loyal to the concept of our friendship or what it was than what it is, I guess. I just don't want to let go of that. (pause) [0:03:00]

It also feels very weird. I haven't talked to Zoe (ph) since I disastrously talked (inaudible at 0:03:10) upsettingly talked to her at Christmas. And there have been a couple of times where I thought about it and then thought, no, I don't know that I really… I don't know that I want to call her when I'm upset anymore. Or if I'm feeling lonely, that I'm not sure that's what I want to do. And I've done it in the past. I've been whatever. But I don't know. Recently I sort of was consciously thinking to myself I would like to call… I would like to be able to call her.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: But I would have liked to call her from ten years ago or five years ago or whatever. [0:04:04] Not her right now. And it's not even that I'm waiting for her to make the first phone call, e-mail. It's just more like I don't… I don't know. I'm not really looking to reconnect. I mean, I want to. But I don't think… I think that's wishful thinking. Unless she reached out and was like, "Hey, I kind of fucked that up," I don't want to be friends. [0:05:01] I don't want to let… I've been kind of wary about letting her in for a little while. And now I'm just like, OK, that was a painful thing that let myself do. And now that like… I guess unfortunately the conversation I was kind of forcing something that I was pretty sure I knew the answer to. I was…

THERAPIST: Meaning when you talked to her?

CLIENT: When I talked to her over Christmas, I was…

THERAPIST: You knew pretty well how that was going to turn out?

CLIENT: I wasn't sure exactly how it was going to turn out.

THERAPIST: Yea.

CLIENT: But I thought it was unlikely that she would apologize. Or not even apologize, just like, "I regret doing that," like something. [0:06:05] I didn't think I was going to get that. And I really wanted to. I was kind of like… I was very much wanting… not wanting that to be true which is also why I hadn't talked to her about it in so long because I just didn't want… I wanted to be ambiguous because if I wasn't… if it's ambiguous, then I could be like, "No, no." (pause)

And yea. I mean, part of what also sucks is that she I don't know I don't want to say doesn't care. [0:07:04] But she's terrible about keeping in touch and that's something she talks about in and out. And we made a pact to just call each other whenever and not to feel guilty about it. But she hasn't. (pause) And since she doesn't use Facebook, we can't even do the little super passive like, "Nice photo," or whatever. It's just… (pause) And so I feel, I guess, somewhat glad that I haven't let my (inaudible at 0:08:06) friendship with (inaudible at 0:08:07) spin out that hard core. But I don't know. (pause) So one of my friends, Mara (ph), I bagged on her recently but…

THERAPIST: I think you mentioned her.

CLIENT: Yea, she is I don't know a very passionate person. It's all black and white. It's all horrible or it's all amazing. And she keeps on going through rounds of alienating all of her friends. [0:09:00] Or alienating a huge chunk of her friends. But she's also very charismatic and social getting different friends.

THERAPIST: Like getting a group of friends?

CLIENT: Getting a new group of friends.

THERAPIST: Yea.

CLIENT: Burn all the bridges again.

THERAPIST: Yea.

CLIENT: I see her do this a lot at this point and it's never her fault. It's always that they turned against her, blah, blah, blah. And her narrative is she's the most loyal friend in the world. She's just completely selfless in giving and people just take advantage of her which is her narrative of it. (pause)

And so her most recent blowup was with a group of friends. It was over this fan convention in (inaudible at 0:10:07). And also this particular girl, Diane (ph), who Mara (ph) kind of dragged out to Kentucky with her as like, "Hey, let's be friends and go to the nursing school and hang out." And then started fighting with her, kicked her out of the shared house they were living in and would say, "You're dead to me." And also meant that Diane (ph) was cut off from not just Mara (ph) but Mara's (ph) whole family who had kind of become Diane's (ph) second family. And she was stuck in Kentucky where she didn't want to be (inaudible at 0:10:46). (pause)

And Mara (ph) was super angry about it and was like, "Diane (ph) is typical against me," or whatever. She would kind of go in these swings. [0:11:01] And also has become a huge alcoholic. So sometimes it's drunk phone calls twice or a phone call that she didn't recall making. But she's still very… she's very resistant to the idea of that she has a drinking problem.

So Diane (ph) called me recently because she had talked to Mara (ph) over something really horrible that had been happening to Mara's (ph) family… in Mara's (ph) family because Diane (ph) knows them all as well. Diane (ph) used to be a Jehovah's Witness and her step-father or father was abusive. Her mother took the step-father's side and kicked her out of the house when she was 17. [0:12:01] And later on they reconciled sort of but her mom kicked her out of the house and (inaudible at 0:12:14).

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: So Diane (ph) called me because one of Mara's… I think Mara's… one of her nieces said, "My step-father has molested me." And Lola's (ph) mom said, "I don't believe you. I believe my husband." And it's horrible that… yea. And Mara (ph) called Diane (ph) because Diane (ph) has not been in that exact situation but has dealt with that.

THERAPIST: Yea.

CLIENT: And whatever. So Diane (ph) was talking to her. She was like, "Oh, this is so horrible," blah, blah, blah. And Diane (ph) was like, "Yea, and really hope Bea (ph) is OK," and blah, blah, blah. [0:13:01] And then that turned into Mara (ph) drunk calling her several times to rant about how Diane (ph) was horrible and had turned all of her friends against her. And why was she so horrible to all of this? And just talking and talking about Diane (ph). I'm like, "It's bullshit. You know it. I know you know it. Just…" And what was frustrating is like I had this moment of I kind of want to call Mara (ph) and tell her like, "I'm sorry this is happening. This is horrible." But I don't want to open that door because then it gets the drunk blackout calls and the crazy accusations and the everything. But I still haven't let go of that.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: She stole my phone, et cetera. [0:14:03] And just, I guess, because of this… because this is happening, I also feel more guilty about wanting to not have her in my life. (pause) And even thinking and being like, well, alcoholics do things that suck. And I don't want to be friends with someone who's doing that. And knowing like having seen her attack her friends repeatedly. I know her script. [0:15:01]

And still… I feel really like… I don't know. I feel sad for her. I would like to be able to talk to her. But I don't feel like I can. And this is making it more, I guess, foregrounding more, having these horrible things happen in her family. She's very close to her family. I'm like, "Wow, you really could use a grown up friend who's not in your family. And I would like to except that I don't want all of your toxic, crazy bullshit." And I don't think I can… I want to separate it and I don't think I can. [0:16:04] And I'm feeling frustrated about that and just… I don't know. I've also been thinking about people that I know from online or whatever who I'm still keeping some little tangential bit of friendship that…

THERAPIST: I guess for me as far as Mara (ph) you want a little bit of the kind of talk you gave to Diane (ph). Like, "C'mon (ph), you know this isn't going to work."

CLIENT: Yea.

THERAPIST: "I know you know it. Just whhst."

CLIENT: Yea. And she was saying the exact same thing I'm saying. She was like, "I know but…" I'm like, "I know."

THERAPIST: Yea. [0:16:52] And I guess the question is maybe it's having somebody else, like her or me, think of you while you're feeling bad for Mara (ph) and thinking of her. That feels like it would make it easier. I mean, I sort of think like… yea.

CLIENT: I don't know. I kind of want it to make it easier. But I don't totally. (pause) I guess it's hard for me to listen to myself/someone else. [0:18:10] This is the advice I would give everyone. But I'm having a hard time take…

THERAPIST: Right, you're sort of like… and you're like more in talking about this a few minutes ago talking about these other situations although it seems harder with this one. Or has it been easier?

CLIENT: Yea.

THERAPIST: It's easier.

CLIENT: Yea, but then it's sort of is easier because I feel like I never… we never kind of went over the hump of really being friends. [0:19:02] I feel like I've tried to at a couple of points. And I guess really she tried to also but we… it never really gelled, if that makes since. And Mara (ph) and with Brittney (ph), I've known Mara (ph) since 2000, I think, something like that. So that's got me [worked up.] (ph)

THERAPIST: Right. And another thing with Zoe (ph) you've known for a long time.

CLIENT: I've known her since I was five.

THERAPIST: Huh?

CLIENT: I've known her since I was five.

THERAPIST: Yea.

CLIENT: Yea, I have these long friendships.

THERAPIST: Right, no, no, no. But with her, it's… what do you think it is with her in that it seems like you're pretty OK in this mindset about wanting to talk to her? [0:20:07] I'm not saying it's not that upsetting. But you don't feel strongly pulled to do other than…

CLIENT: Yea. (pause) I think part… I think a big part of it was… is so Mara (ph) has not attacked me to my face. She's never called me to say I'm a horrible person or that I've ruined her life. She's called me and said, "Diane (ph) did this thing that I feel you were a part of sort of that ruined my life."

THERAPIST: But you've never really been a bad guy.

CLIENT: Yea.

THERAPIST: Yea. [0:21:00]

CLIENT: And for better or for worse, the most is she has ever let me down like that. (pause) But I haven't had a sort of like, "I tell you something really personal and painful and have it get like flipped back." She's definitely said things that like about my life and may have said some things that have upset me.

THERAPIST: Right, right. But not as bad as what happened with Zoe (ph).

CLIENT: Yea. And also she's someone who she pretty will off the cuff say something crazy. [0:22:03] And I'm like, "What the fuck?" And then the next day she's like, "I said what?" So there's not that persisting while with Zoe (ph) and Emma (ph), that was a situation that developed over years and just it was repeated and with the terrible thing that Mara (ph) has said, she's really basically said them once. And that sounds horrible. I'm like she still said it once but her saying something… I guess there… it's partially just… I mean, I know a lot of reasons why I'm like, "Meh."

But when I was talking with her about therapy and psychiatry because she's like, "I have a lot of problems. I could really use them." [0:23:06] And she was flailing about it. And at one point, she seemed like she might actually see a therapist and that her mom would pay for it. And so I was talking to her about things you can do. And she's like, "Well, I don't understand why I should go to therapy. And you've been doing that and you're not fixed yet." And I was just like, "Hmm, fuck you." She's never said that again over the…

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Even said anything like it.

THERAPIST: Yea. (pause)

CLIENT: And I suspect if I called her… if she was sober when I called her and I was like, "You said this thing," she would probably apologize. [0:24:00]

THERAPIST: Yea, it's like she reacts more to what's happening in the moment and may lash out a bit in response to that. But it's not so much a position statement.

CLIENT: Yea.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 0:24:30). (pause)

CLIENT: The other thing is that I often worry that… I often worry about if I'm in… if one of my friends like, am I more vested than they are? Do I think this person as a friend and do they think of me as an acquaintance? Which, I think, is another reason why dropping friends and things have all this anxiety and I don't want to really do it.

THERAPIST: I see. (pause)

CLIENT: I don't know. On the one hand, if I don't do something in which I think is so I don't go to my friends and like, "Why are you friends with me? I'm such a horrible person." I think not doing that is good. (chuckling) It's something that Ashby (ph) Ashby (ph) and then Jenna (ph) doing something that makes me completely crazy. So… and I consciously don't do it because sometimes I feel like… I'm just like, "Are we friends on your end?" [0:26:01] I want to pass them a note. But then I'm like, OK, you're being crazy. That's not what's happening. It's pretty much just you. So that'll die.

THERAPIST: You just take a deep breath and (inaudible at 0:26:15).

CLIENT: Yea, and then I try to be like, all right. So when I'm less crazy… feeling less crazy, I will try and maybe sending an e-mail or something. See where that goes. And usually it goes fine and I'm OK again. Or if I'm not super stressed out, it's more like, that was crazy. Your friends. OK, let's go on with life.

THERAPIST: Yea.

CLIENT: But it's definitely an anxiety. (pause) [0:27:00] I guess I feel sometimes that I have a hard time feeling, I guess, safe or settled in the friendship. (pause) I think for most of my friends, it's a little bit back in the head just worry that this could all go horribly wrong. Or that there is like I don't know I feel like this may be good right now but at some point this person will reveal something really hurtful. [0:28:01] Or will totally not have your back. And that's going to suck. (pause) And I really hate that because I think it keeps me from being closer to some of my friends because I'm scared of being that open. (pause) [0:29:00]

THERAPIST: I think I'm not sure that it's not easy to say. Kind of like it puts me a little… especially when it makes you think it's good that you have the confidence… a confidant that will happen here that you can say that.

CLIENT: Yea. When I've talked like encouraged people or talked to people about therapy that's one of the things. I'm like here's this really great benefit. You never have to worry that your friend is going to freak out. [0:30:04] If you rely on a friend to dump to do all your emotional stuff with that might not be such a good idea. That can go (inaudible at 0:30:17). And you might be inhibited by saying something, "I don't want to say that." It's upsetting or whatever.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: I think it's something that I should… and also sometimes I'm hashing out friend things that I don't want to actually say to my friends because… this is a metaphor but OK. So there's this idea which is a good idea that if you are white and want to process your feelings about (inaudible at 0:31:01) racism or whatever, you should go do that with white people. And not dump it on your friends who are people of color because that's not really fair. And that if you are a white person who's had like… and you see someone… another person that you should be like, "Hey, maybe we could talk about it."

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: "You cannot do that to your friend."

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: "It's gross." And I was thinking of it recently when someone I know just kind of talking about her body image. I was like, "Mother." And then she started… she was talking about how she had a picture of herself when she had her hair in I don't know dreadlock extensions or maybe they were locks. And she was like, "I feel real comfortable with dreadlocks as an issue of like cultural appropriation and they never really look… they don't always look good on white people's hair. It's really different." [0:32:00] And she's like, "And there's all these reasons why I don't feel comfortable having this hairstyle again."

THERAPIST: She's white?

CLIENT: She's white. Sorry, yes. She's white. And I think her hair was also dyed blue and was in these locks and I was like, "Yea, they actually do look kind of shitty," because straight hair can't coil and lock. And it's dirty (ph). Anyway, and then… but then she started going on about like, "But I really loved how I feel about when I dread. And I just felt this link to black women through my (inaudible at 0:32:39)." And I was like, "Hey, I don't want to hear you process your feelings about race right now." And there's not a great way…

THERAPIST: …to say that?

CLIENT: Well, yes. [0:33:00] (chuckling) Because… I mean, I'm saying like… because I am saying, "You're having this really difficult problem and I don't want to hear it."

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I mean, and obviously there's a lot more to it than that. But I wouldn't… I don't… I wouldn't process my complicated feelings about consent with someone who was assaulted because whoa. Do not do that because a lot of them are… I'm just like… or I'm still… yea, at any rate. (pause) And it's also where people are like, "Well, but I have friends." I'm like, well, but… well, friends are awesome but you don't want to hurt your friend's feelings or feel like you're boring them or whatever. [0:34:01] And maybe they can't do that conversation with you for other reasons. (pause)

THERAPIST: And it's tricky. I mean, I'm glad you feel comfortable that way here and confident talking about stuff. I think that's great. And I'm glad to be able to help that way. It seems to me with you talking about some the kinds of stuff with your friends is that it's complicated. [0:35:01] On one hand I take your point about being concerned about sort of touching on the things that are painful for them. Maybe without knowing it which I guess I assume is part of the metaphor there or the analogy.

CLIENT: Actually thinking both. Sometimes I know that it's a touchy subject and sometimes I think I don't want to oops into a touchy subject.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I mean the other thing also though is I don't want to find out the crappy way that they're not someone who I can be safe talking about that way.

THERAPIST: Right. Right, so there are kind of potential dangers for each of you. The part where I think it gets tricky is kind of like what you're saying before how that can also mean missed opportunities to be close. [0:36:07] I'm not saying I have any idea about some heuristic or like I just think it…

CLIENT: No, it does.

THERAPIST: I know there are instances with you in particular where at least in retrospect it seemed that you were more worried than you needed to be. I mean, you're kind of can try it either way. I'm thinking of like after your surgery when you really don't want to ask for help and where you were saying no. Am I remembering correctly?

CLIENT: Yea. I mean, the thing I was thinking, I think if I do, is there's this when Bethany (ph) and she isn't that open. And she said before if you need to… if you ever want to call, just call. [0:37:01] I want to say she's a little bit inspirational to me where I'm like I want to grow up to be her a little bit a lot. She was a black lesbian feminist through this like in the 70s and she's like, "Yea, and my collective was hard core. They were like there's no crying in feminism. Deal with it."

THERAPIST: (chuckling)

CLIENT: And I'm like, "Oh God. OK."

THERAPIST: She's like a badass, I guess?

CLIENT: Yea, she's a super badass. And she will just say things and sometimes I'm like, that's so true and badass. Jesus Christ. Wow. And sometimes I'm like I want to call her and be like, "What should I do?" or like, "Can you give me your amazing insights into things because you know shit?"

THERAPIST: You're awesome. Yea.

CLIENT: Yea. And she said, "Do it." But I'm like, it… I just… like I said, I can't. I'm too… like I just… even though she's offered, I worry that it's not… that it… that my worry is that it was a kind of like general, "Yea, sure call anytime." [0:38:10] "No, don't."

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And I'm pretty sure it was actually like she is sincere. And I could e-mail her or call her.

THERAPIST: Right, right. She sounds like this sort of person who I imagine would be...

CLIENT: Yea, she's pretty blunt. I mean, not in a mean way but just…

THERAPIST: Yea.

CLIENT: But I just feel very hindered about it.

THERAPIST: Right. (pause) But it's like those things are, so how come she's so awesome that like… it would suck to be rejected… it'd really suck to be rejected by her. [0:39:00]

CLIENT: Yea. It's both like wow. I feel like it's high stakes.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And I also feel like she's so awesome. What am I bringing into this friendship? She's…

THERAPIST: You doubt your awesomeness here. Is that [what I'm hearing here?] (ph)

CLIENT: Yea. It's like… because then I have like you're… you have no crying in feminism. And all these other things that she just has said and I'm like, "That is so totally amazing. That's really awful. That's whatever." And I just feel like, what am I bringing here? What…

THERAPIST: A lot more awesomeness than you think.

CLIENT: Yea, I can say that. But…

THERAPIST: And I can say it too. It's true. But I understand. (inaudible at 0:39:46).

CLIENT: Yea, but I'm still like, "Nah." (pause) [0:40:00] It's also that I feel somewhat easier in person because there's all the body language.

THERAPIST: Right (inaudible at 0:40:11) the phone.

CLIENT: I hate the phone also because I step on the end of conversations. And it's easier to negotiate that in person sort of. (pause) And on the phone whenever there's a pause, I get completely wound up over, are they pausing because they're pissed or bored or whatever? And leaving that space just freaks me out. (pause) [0:41:01] I mean, I do that. It's just… I don't know if it's the same impulse. But when I've given workshops or talks or whatever, it's super hard for me to say like, "Does anyone have any questions?" and just…

THERAPIST: …leave it.

CLIENT: Yea. Or to kind of drop a question in and just wait for the answer or not answer. (pause) [0:42:00]

THERAPIST: So that all these things team up and make it difficult to call her?

CLIENT: Yea. (pause) [0:43:00]

THERAPIST: I mean, is it also that's she's tough? I mean, which I understand is kind of part of her awesomeness but it doesn't sound like she's… there's no crying. So…

CLIENT: It's not exactly that. I mean, she is, I guess I would say, more no nonsense.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: And her other thing is you can give someone advice but sometimes they're just going to learn through putting their hand on the hot pot. You got to learn that for yourself.

THERAPIST: Right. (pause) [0:44:00]

CLIENT: And so some of what I think about is, is this I got to learn for myself thing or is this not. And she's talked at various times which I actually really agree with is that to an extent… so which part of her being in this last collective is they're like, "OK, so you guys who are in your 20s, you got to work some out with your own shit. And those of us who are, say, in our 40s were going to work on our shit over here also. So we're going to work on different parts of our lives and we're different generations. And we have different crap to work out.

THERAPIST: Yep.

CLIENT: Yes. And I think that's true. And I'm also like, "Yea." And that's just a generation thing. But I mean, I don't know. Married people might want to work out some crap over here while singles are over here. [0:45:01] And polite people are over here and people who are against religion (ph) they are like sure. And sometimes t can be hard to discuss issues like marriage equality when I would actually prefer that there'd be no governmental marriage. But since that's not possible, I would like marriage equality. So there's this whole like, "Hmm," and so I generally don't get into discussions because on marriage equality because I don't exactly agree with it and I would rather kind of sort that out on the side.

THERAPIST: We should stop.

CLIENT: OK. Well then next Thursday.

THERAPIST: That will work. Yea.

CLIENT: OK.

THERAPIST: OK. So then next Thursday. OK.

CLIENT: See you.

THERAPIST: See you on Thursday.

CLIENT: See you on Thursday. [0:46:01]

THERAPIST: And I will send you a bill this weekend.

CLIENT: OK.

THERAPIST: Is it OK if I charge you for the copay because sometimes it winds up being like 30 bucks-ish or a little less.

CLIENT: Can…

THERAPIST: Or can you send me a little?

CLIENT: Maybe? I just need to check my bank balance.

THERAPIST: OK. And it's not like I need to get it right away. I'm more asking just like…

CLIENT: If you can send me the bill, I can say…

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: …yes or no in a couple of days.

THERAPIST: Sure. That's totally fine.

CLIENT: OK.

THERAPIST: I'll see you.

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