TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Session six, Monday the fourth of November, two thousand and thirteen.

CLIENT: Yes, it is.

THERAPIST: Good. Hi Jessa.

CLIENT: Hi, Debbie.

THERAPIST: So, I want to ask you about your homework, but there was something you wanted to tell me about prior to that.

CLIENT: Yes. So, in fact, I didn’t get a chance to bring home my notebook that has what the student said, but as you know I work with young children, I think I mentioned that in the beginning of our sessions together -

[00:00:40]

THERAPIST: No, you didn’t. Tell me about what your role is and what you do?

CLIENT: Sure. I have a Masters’ Degree in counseling and personal services. Basically what that is, is that I’m a guidance counselor in a school, and I work with children ages kindergarten through fifth grade. So you get a whole range. So I’ve been working with students that age for, like, about eleven, twelve years. God I feel old saying that. Not that it’s so long, but you know, I’ve been doing it for a number of years. So everything that comes up with the students that I work with, you know, a lot of times I’ll have something that’s very interesting that means a lot to me, and if that’s the case, then a lot of times I’ll write it down. But in this particular instance, there was one student that I’d been working with for a number of years, and he decided last Wednesday when we had session, that he wanted to share with the rest of the group what the five beliefs were – his five beliefs of life, how to have a successful life, and it was his top five beliefs.

THERAPIST: He just came up with them himself out of the blue ?

[00:02:00]

CLIENT: Out of the blue. He – nothing really had spurred it, it was just basically this particular child decided to share with the group what he felt were the five keys to success, you know, I don’t know if he really said to a happy life or whatever, he just said “These are my beliefs on life”. And what was really interesting was that, I wasn’t thinking about it at first when he first started, he was like “Let’s start at number five and go all the way down,” and I wasn’t really thinking about it, but I realized as he was saying them and explaining them that they were actually the philosophies of REBT. So it was really interesting, his first one being, you know, don’t expect that everybody is going to like you, and, you know, that it might upset you, or that it might bother you, you know, if something, oh – no – better say: or you may bother yourself -

THERAPIST: Well caught, well caught – you used the words expressing a more accurate REBT attitude – that you, not IT, may bother you!

[00:02:59]

CLIENT: He didn’t say it like that, because he doesn’t know, really, but he said, you know, and I don’t even know, the way he – he’s very eloquent, this child, he’s very bright, and he was able to put it in a way where he said, “And you may be upset, and you may not like it, but that’s okay, because you have to tolerate it.” Like, he was using all the lingo that I’d been reading in the book, and it was, it was strange because it was striking, actually. Strange isn’t really the word. It was striking and astounding because I couldn’t believe that after, I said “Can I write this down?” when he first started talking, but I wasn’t really linking it to the work we were doing, and then when I started writing it down and I looked back I realized, holy cow. Especially later on, on the bus when I was on my way home, and I was reading the book, I’m saying – everything he was saying – seemed to fit ...

THERAPIST: Which book?

CLIENT: Sorry. The REBT – I forget the title. The Rational Emotional Behavioral Therapy book written by you and your husband (Albert Ellis) – I realized that it was the same concepts more or less, and that these concepts were – it was the same concepts as what the student had said. He didn’t get to finish, because the sessions are only thirty minutes, and we had a fire drill, actually, so he had to stop. But he got up to three, and those top three were pretty significant and they all matched up to the concepts and philosophies of REBT.

[00:04:18]

THERAPIST: Out of the mouths of babes, eh?

CLIENT: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So yeah. So that was interesting. And then, moving just ahead, today I had a student -

THERAPIST: Before you move ahead, let me say that one of the many things you contribute to your students and others by the way you behave, by the attitudes you express and display is that you demonstrate REBT principles as a model – by modelling them., Without giving them a lesson in REBT your model it – which can make solid impressions for others particularly children at their young ages. Also – when you do that – you reinforce those healthy awarenesses within yourself. And also, when one works on oneself as you are, it can be even easier: a) to recognize the wisdom from others, i.e. your students, and b) to more powerfully emphasize, reinforce, reward others… in an appropriate way, meaning encouragement [00:05:31]

CLIENT: Because I’m more aware of what is ?...

THERAPIST: Because you’re more aware of the healthiness and helpfulness of that attitude. And we hope that the children imbibe those principles and continue believing and practicing them throughout their lives, because the sooner they imbibe them, the better, otherwise we, as adults -

CLIENT: get a little stuck or rigid. A little more rigid.

THERAPIST: Well, it can mean there will be more work to do to undo what’s unhealthy and replace it with what is healthy, which is in part what you’re doing.

CLIENT: Yeah, I agree.

THERAPIST: Okay. So then -

CLIENT: Oh. And then also, another interesting thing – so today, one of my students, we were having a session, and she – this was actually, I want to say – it wasn’t that it was any more or less powerful than what happened with the other student, but this is where I used REBT.

THERAPIST: With her or with yourself?

CLIENT: With my student. With my student.

THERAPIST: Aah.

CLIENT: And it was really successful, and so can I share?

[00:06:38]

THERAPIST: Please do.

CLIENT: Okay. So what happened is one of my students who is, she’s a fifth grader, she’s very mature for her age, she was I just want to give a little background, only because it just shows that these things can affect the way we think. Just affects all of us regardless of how much we’ve been through, how little we’ve been through. She was adopted at two years old, by a really beautiful, lovely family, who has given her warmth and a good home and everything as far as what I know, but you know, like any child her age, and just given she’s a little more, she’s a bigger girl, a little bigger, and a little less confident in certain ways, she’s had some struggles, just emotionally. But behaviorally, in the classroom and everything, she’s considered to be more of – I don’t want to use the word goody two-shoes, but in this case I will, just to make – just to give you the picture, that she doesn’t really do anything, she doesn’t act out, she’s not one that the teacher would say, you know so-and-so is – and let’s just call this girl, I don’t know, what’s a very, just basic name. The teacher would never say this child misbehaved. That’s not a common – you wouldn’t expect that. So what happened was just today, this particular student came to session and was really upset because she said that she didn’t do her math homework the night before I guess when she had her time to do her homework, she didn’t do it. She came to school today, and the teacher asked “Where’s everybodys math homework”. Well, knowing that her father is a very strict, strict, strict man, she got panicky. She was also panicking on the way to school, knowing that she didn’t do it. She got panicky, and what she did was, she erased another boy’s name off of his paper, who she knows does very well in math, so she knew it would be a good grade, she erased his name and put her name instead. So, quite sneaky and very, you know, mischievous.

[00:08:47]

THERAPIST: Not good behavior.

CLIENT: Not good behavior, not something that we want to encourage. But what happened was, she was explaining this to me so, my immediate thought – how I usually am, I try as much as I can not to show judgment to the children, and that’s before REBT and even now. But sometimes I’m a lot more of the side of just – well anyway, it doesn’t matter. The point is, now I know REBT. I have the concepts. I’m getting it. So she was worried, guilty, anxious, didn’t like the fact – because the class did find out, by the way. The whole class did find out that she did this act. So she was embarrassed, she was telling me all the feelings. “I’m so embarrassed, in front of the whole class, I can’t believe I did this,” she was really beating herself up. You could see she felt the guilt. So I walked her through it, and I don’t want to belabor the point, but I walked her through it. She felt very panicky, this is why she decided to do what she did, was this the choice that she, you know, I did not use the word “should”. I said “As a choice, probably was it the best choice? No.” I said, “Was it out of an act of panic and sheer terror? Yes.” Because that really was what she expressed, was that she really felt that she would get in trouble if her father did find out she didn’t do her math homework. And there was clearly – and then we discussed, and this was my little additive, that maybe there was some part of her that did want to get found out in some way, and we kind of added that into it. But where I used REBT is that, and this was very interesting, is that a few minutes before, when she was telling the story, she talked about the boy whose homework she had erased, and she said he’s a really nice kid, that she did it to, right, who she chose. Then within the same sentence, she said that this same boy did something very bad, she used these words, that he went into the computer and pulled some website, right, and that he got in huge trouble for it, and she said “Probably even bigger trouble than I got.” And I said “Are you aware of what you just said?” I said “Within the same sentence you said “Oh, because she was worried, she was worried that she was no longer going to be considered a nice girl, that’s what it was. So I said “Are you aware that you just said, about this boy, that he’s a nice boy. And within the same sentence, you said a few weeks back, he did a bad act, got in much worse trouble, but you still think he’s a nice boy.” And she – her whole face changed. I said, “So are you aware that you might not have made the best choice, but are you going to beat yourself up about it all day long, and I’m the worst – I’m trying not to say her name – I’m the worst, I’m the worst child, no one’s ever going to think I’m nice, you know, the whole class looks at me differently – I said, people forget, and you should too!” [00:11:49]

THERAPIST: Preferably should.

CLIENT: Preferably, yeah. And I didn’t really put it exactly in that way, I can’t really remember how that went. The point was that she – her body language – things changed when she realized that she didn’t have to beat herself up over that, and that I think what was even more, like, significant, was the fact that she was – because I read this in the book – was that we condemn ourselves so much more than we would somebody else. So she was saying that this boy that did something that wasn’t the best decision was a nice boy in the same sentence. But yet when she did it, she’s now a bad girl, nobody’s going to like her, the whole class is going to think she’s terrible, because she did something that wasn’t the best, or did not make the smartest choice, or the wisest choice with her homework. And then I said, “Did you learn from this? Maybe next time you won’t“And she did, and she explained to me, she said next time I’ll think before – you know, and it was nothing that I put in her mouth, it was really, you could see that once she calmed down, and wasn’t being so hard on herself, she was able to get the lesson. I have to tell you, I was pretty shocked that she of all people did that. She really, it was out of character for, you know, it was just not a typical behavior that I’ve ever seen her do before. So I think she was even especially harder on herself, because it’s not how she considers herself to sort of, you know, she monitors her behavior much more – she’s much harsher than maybe another kid that you’d say, “Oh, I expected that from him”. So, anyway, that was… [00:13:32]

THERAPIST: It’s a valuable lesson for her. May I suggest, if it feels appropriate next time you see her, and tell me what you think about what I’m about to suggest, you bring up the notion that neither she nor the boy are good or nice or bad or terrible, they do good or bad things -

CLIENT: I did that already.

THERAPIST: Oh you did?

CLIENT: I did. [00:14:00]

THERAPIST: Well done, yeah. And so she understands -

CLIENT: She got the difference.

THERAPIST: that she’s worthwhile. It’s preferable that she do good things, because the outcome is better, but even if she does a bad thing, and I already sense from what you told me that she got this message from you, she’s still worthwhile.

CLIENT: She got the message, yeah. She did. Her body language changed and everything once the connections were made. But I think that originally she came down looking pretty somber and concerned that she did that. I think even the teacher noticed that it wasn’t so terrible because the teacher said “I’m not even going to call your parents, I just want you to write an apology, come up during lunch and write an apology note”. So she didn’t even have to really worry about her father’s wrath, because I know him and I don’t think he’d be too keen on that, so. But that wasn’t the concern. She learned from it. [00:15:00]

THERAPIST: Good. So do you think from now on when you see her, you’ll reinforce that she’s worthwhile, whether she does good or bad, though it’s preferable, because of beneficial outcomes, that she strive to do more good things ?

CLIENT: Oh, absolutely. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Wonderful! Good!

CLIENT: And I did my work, so.

THERAPIST: That’s what I want to know about. Reflecting now on your homework, it was to do ABC’s with more thorough investigation, identification, and expression of irrational beliefs, the shoulds, the musts, and then doing thorough D’s and E’s, and then we were talking about you giving attention to your need in your own head to be positive and cheerful for the sake of your girlfriend. There was a discomfort about you feeling sick all of the time, and your concern that your girlfriend doesn’t know your more carefree other side. So tell me about your homework. [00:16:00]

CLIENT: Okay so. Do you want me just to go through with an example? Start with like an example?

THERAPIST: Well, first of all, in general, tell me, do you feel you did your homework adequately? Did you do a rush-minute job? Or did you think about it substantially? How’s it going? And then I want to hear at least one example, yes.

CLIENT: So, this week was really really challenging for me as I’ve mentioned, in the past sessions, that physically it’s been quite a really challenging. Probably out of my entire 35 years, physically the most challenging. I’ve had some other physical ailments and things, but this by far, just because it relates to my neck, has been really difficult. So it has affected my handwriting and my ability to write -

THERAPIST: Temporarily. [00:17:00]

CLIENT: Temporarily, yes. So unfortunately, I think I had seen you once between sessions and I’d mentioned that I hadn’t really done my homework, and really that was the reason, so I was doing it more in my head, because writing and typing was really a challenge this week. Last night I started to feel – I had a good night last night writing-wise. So I was actually able to write down stuff. But when I wasn’t writing, I was being very thorough in my head this week about, I was reading a lot, I read the disputing section in the REBT book, I read a lot actually. I’d say I read about – different sections that I focused on, and one being, you know, the disputing, and how to get a little bit deeper into that, and also just some of the irrational beliefs that we sort of – we meaning as humans, like us – tend to kind of just come up with on our own terms. And so I was looking a little bit at that and really relating to some of the irrational beliefs that, sort of in my mind, before all of this, were set in stone. And not realizing that [00:18:05]

THERAPIST: You mean you thought they were set in stone.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: They’re not really, are they?

CLIENT: Right, that’s what I’m saying, that I thought that they were, and that they’re not. So with that said, I actually had a real activating event, like something that actually – after all week of really using it in my mind, I had an actual even that I was able to record because it is sort of representative of like, I want to call it a life theme, I guess. It’s something that from when I was little, that happened quite often, and so it – but I tried to put it into one incident, because one incident, or activating event, actually occurred yesterday. And so I found that my homework was very easy to do, because I had been thinking, thinking, thinking, and knowing the concepts, over the week, the homework became a lot – I don’t want to say easy, but it was easier. The disputing piece.

[00:19:05]

THERAPIST: Remember a few sessions ago, when you were saying you find the disputing really hard, and a few times you would say “This is new to me, and this is hard”. And certainly it appears to me that you’re feeling more at ease with the process and more embracing of it, would that be correct?

CLIENT: I agree, though I also have to add something in, I don’t know if this is just me being, about my experience throughout all of this. Physically I find that when I’m in a lot of physical pain, it does make it really really hard, all I can think about is just the pain, and so when I go to dispute, I feel emotionally, I feel so – I feel angry, I feel drained, I feel frustrated, I feel just overwhelmed with pain. I mean the pain level is so intolerable at times that it’s harder to dispute, has been my experience, and that if I’m feeling like when I was able to write last night, and it was a little easier I find it easier. So I found a connection between those two things. That physically – for me, I don’t know if everybody would experience it that way – but for me I found that it’s a lot easier to do when I’m not in as dire pain.

[00:20:26]

THERAPIST: Oh, I think most humans would have that experience. At the very least, being in pain is distracting. It can make the brain somewhat cloudy and foggy and so it’s certainly very understandable. Having said that, I would also encourage you, if not at the exact time of intense pain, as soon after you have felt it as you feel comfortable enough to do so, to do ABC’s on the anger and frustration that you feel as a result of the pain.

CLIENT: As a result of the pain, but not when you’re in that immediate intense pain-

THERAPIST: If you can, fine, but if the reality is that you are feeling temporarily debilitated then rest, take a breath, have a cup of herbal tea, play with your cats, whatever, and when you feel somewhat calmer and able, then do the ABC’s on what you were telling yourself to create the anger. And sometimes it’s anger about the anger.

[00:21:40]

CLIENT: Exactly.

THERAPIST: Which is called a secondary disturbance.

CLIENT: I read that. Anxiety about anxiety. You get anxiety about the fact that you have anxiety. It’s like “I have anxiety, now I’m mad that I have anxiety”.

THERAPIST: Or anger…telling yourself: “I’m a counselor, and I’ve been having six sessions, and I’m still not able to do the – “. And so, the first step then, would be to hone in on what you are telling yourself, and make strong effort at practicing greater USA.

[00:22:04]

[TOGETHER] Unconditional Self-Acceptance (USA).

THERAPIST: Which is reminding yourself: “I’m a fallible human, and when I’m in pain, I find it more difficult. Does that make me not good enough? No! Does that make me inferior? No! It means I’m feeling pain and I’m not applying myself to tasks as well as I prefer to, and as well as I wish I was at this time”. And so a first step is to attend to the secondary disturbed emotion of anger about the anger, or guilt about the guilt, and then you come back to the original or primary disturbing emotion about whatever it is. Does that make sense?

CLIENT: It does. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

THERAPIST: Alright, so then back to last night when you could write.

CLIENT: I could write. So could I share the activating event?

THERAPIST: Please do.

[00:22:58]

CLIENT: Okay, so it was kind of a long thing that kind of came together, but basically, my mother and I tend to have this very, where I feel that -

THERAPIST: You have this very what?

CLIENT: I’m sorry. Relationship, where – I’m trying to say this in the REBT way, where it’s – well it’s my feeling that I – it’s a feeling that I need her approval.

THERAPIST: You think you need -

CLIENT: I think that I need her approval.

THERAPIST: You think you need it. That’s a belief. The good news is you can change it.

CLIENT: Right, so my belief is that I think that I need her approval, and that without her approval …we’ll get into the beliefs. Or maybe I’ll just say them now.

THERAPIST: How about you start with A.

CLIENT: So the activating event was that earlier in the day, yesterday was Sunday and my mom had called to just catch up or whatever, and something came up about a holiday dinner that we had had, where wine had spilled all over – red wine had spilled all over the chair, and a little bit on the table, chair, and on the carpet [00:24:15]

THERAPIST: You spilled it?

CLIENT: No, it wasn’t me. It was a friend that was there for dinner. So my friends were at the holiday dinner as well, and they still kind of laugh about that night, because they said that there was conversation, and there was laughter, and all these things, and then the wine spilled, and then thirty minutes of basically, like, silence, it was like somebody had died. My father was on the floor, he was taking Carbona, my mother was like, standing up, she was like, running, I mean it was like -

THERAPIST: Jessa, can you see the funny side of that?

CLIENT: I did, and I was really trying that night, but that’s like a very common thing, but they don’t – the thing is they don’t see they don’t know, my parents don’t realize.

THERAPIST: Answer please Do you, now, see the funny side of that?

[00:25: 04]

CLIENT: I mean, I do.

THERAPIST: You sound hesitant.

CLIENT: Because when I’m in it, I don’t.

THERAPIST: Well I asked you about now -

CLIENT: Now I do. Oh, I think it’s hilarious. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Couldn’t you see it as a sitcom on TV?

CLIENT: Yes, I think my family should have been on -

THERAPIST: People would be crying with laughter, because people would identify -

CLIENT: They would identify with it, exactly -

THERAPIST: with crazy family scenarios.

CLIENT: Exactly, exactly.

THERAPIST: So when you’re detached from it, like right now-

CLIENT: Oh it is, it’s very funny. It is. It’s definitely funny. But again, at the time, it was pretty intense, the situation, so what happened was, I actually brought the story up of what had happened because my friends – people were e-mailing, “oh, at the “Jones’s”, this is what happened” and blah blah blah. You know, the red wine, and they were kind of just making it light and funny, because they know, people know my family, and they just know how high-strung they can be, and very neat and clean. Anyway. The point is that the story came up and it hadn’t really [00:26:15]

THERAPIST: The story came up in your conversation with your mother yesterday?

CLIENT: In my conversation with my mother. Right. And so I made a suggestion, when the conversation had come up, that maybe the next time that she has guests, that, because it was an upsetting situation to her and to my father, that maybe next time they put plastic down. So I said, “You might want to consider that.” So that this way, if somebody comes, they don’t have to feel if they did spill, they don’t have to feel badly. Because what ended up happening was, my parents’ good friend, the one who did spill the wine, she kept saying “I feel so bad, I feel so bad”. And that lasted, like, for thirty minutes, and then it went into the next day, and then she was e-mailing them, because she herself was damning herself for doing what she did. So it really became this big blown-up thing and I said “Well, maybe the next time you just want to put down plastic.” That’s all I said. Well, my mother called me back, like, but then she was annoyed with me. She didn’t say why. She just kind of got quiet on the phone, and she sometimes will do that, and we hung up the phone, and, but I knew that she was bothered by something. And so whenever – that’s not the first time that that’s happened, and I tend to start getting all these thoughts in my head: my mother’s bothered by something, and so I was kind of going, you know, ruminating a little bit, but then I [00:27:32]

THERAPIST: Can I just stop and say that I hear progress the fact that you’re thinking “my mother’s bothered by something”, instead of thinking “I made my mother feel that way” – that is progress!

CLIENT: Yes and I didn’t think about that until just now.

THERAPIST: Think about it. Progress!

CLIENT: Well, okay yeah.

THERAPIST: Look, you’re thinking differently.

CLIENT: I guess, yeah.

THERAPIST: My hunch is, and we can’t prove it, but it is that weeks ago, before you started this REBT work, you might have perhaps automatically said, “And I made my mother upset”. And you didn’t use that language just now. Just now here with me you didn’t.

[00:28:15]

CLIENT: Just now with you I didn’t, right.

THERAPIST: I can tell, you just pointed to your notes and also by your facial expression there is something coming -

CLIENT: We’ll get there. Something’s coming.

THERAPIST: But it is beneficial to acknowledge, what you expressed right now, talking to me, can you see your progress?

CLIENT: I do. I – yes.

THERAPIST: Evidence of progress in the way you speak – and think?

CLIENT: In the way I just believe it. Exactly. Yeah.

THERAPIST: I want to acknowledge that.

CLIENT: Well thank you.

THERAPIST: And I also want to acknowledge that when I tell you positive things, you say thank you. The first week we worked together, it seemed really hard for you to accept anything positive I said. So I just wanted to point out this other progress that I’m seeing after only six sessions, and you doing work in between. Well, well done.

[00:28:55]

CLIENT: Thank you, Debbie.

THERAPIST: So. Back to the drama -

CLIENT: Back to the melodrama with the family, yeah. So she called like– so that happened, and then she called back, probably about two hours later. And I also want to just preface this with saying that this is something, this sort of back and forth, with calling and being upset – this happens a lot.

[00:29:20]

THERAPIST: Could we call it somewhat obsessive behavior?

CLIENT: It is. Yeah. It’s obsessive.

THERAPIST: Okay. So notice that.

CLIENT: Okay. Yes. I am very aware. That I was aware of for a long time. So anyway.

THERAPIST: You can change that, you know that.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. So my mom called back, and she said wait, hold on, hold on, I’m reading my notes here. She said, “I just want to tell you something”, and I said “yeah”, and she said “I was a little hurt, because you mentioned putting plastic down in case wine spilled the next time,” she said. “And you made it out to seem as if we got quiet after the wine spilled, and that Daddy and I were “and she said “We weren’t quiet, we were fine about it, and everybody was talking and having a great time, and I felt that you were putting me down.” She felt that I was putting her down by saying that the next time that people come that maybe she puts plastic. She said “I think it’s disgusting to put plastic down, I think it’s inappropriate, and you don’t make your guests feel comfortable,” and she went on to say that somebody that she – a friend’s house that she went to did that once and that the daughter was embarrassed and she feels that that’s totally not – you know, the way that you invite guests to your house and blah blah blah. So anyway. That was the activating event, right? So I’ll tell you what I did in a minute, but just so that you’re aware of the consequences -

[00:30:45]

THERAPIST: Yes, that’s what comes next – identify the Consequences.

CLIENT: are that I was, what I wrote down is that I was anxious when she said -

THERAPIST: You felt anxious.

CLIENT: I felt anxious when she said “I just want to tell you something”, because I’ve heard that before, many times. And I felt guilty, like a bad girl, because whenever I hear “I just want to tell you something,” and it’s in her tone, I know what’s coming, and I’ve heard it. So it’s guilt, and anxiety, and “you’re a bad girl”, telling myself that kind of stuff. And then the beliefs were, as she was speaking, “I shouldn’t have said anything”, I caught myself, “I shouldn’t have said anything”, “I can’t stand my mother being mad at me”, “I suck”, “I’m the worst daughter”, “Any other daughter wouldn’t have even mentioned the plastic”, “She will never approve of me”, “I’m unlovable”. I don’t know if – you know, it sounds extreme, but, you know, that’s – it’s not even that I had those exact thoughts, it’s the feeling that’s kind of connected to the possible thoughts I’m having that at this point, I didn’t even realize that they were thoughts until I went to go write and do my homework. That was the thing. I didn’t know, because to me it used to be, just to go back to when I was younger, it felt always chaotic. The feeling – everything got blended in so I didn’t know. It was an over just sort of the over – okay then, this is what you think about yourself now, after that type of incident would happen. But again, it wasn’t like, overnight, or one particular incident, it was over time. So I wasn’t even aware until – so anyway, the good news is, the way I handled it was I said, I guess I handled it not even realizing, using REBT. The situation. [00:32:34]

THERAPIST: Hold on. ‘Handled it’ you say, are you talking about -

CLIENT: The situation with my mother on the phone. Should I go to that or continue with the dispute and all that?

THERAPIST: Well, you’ve started talking about this so let’s finish this, and then I am most interested to -

CLIENT: To know what I actually did.

THERAPIST: Yes. Have you any other irrational beliefs written down that you identified?

CLIENT: Isn’t that enough?

THERAPIST: You got the juicy ones, sure you did.

CLIENT: Those are the juicy – I think probably I feel unlovable, the biggest is probably -

THERAPIST: Is it “I feel unlovable”

CLIENT: Or I am unlovable.

[00:30:00]

THERAPIST: They’re two different things.

CLIENT: Okay I feel unlovable. Or I, no I said “I am unlovable.” That’s what I wrote here. I don’t remember now. Shall I say what it is now?

THERAPIST: Say what what is?

CLIENT: What the – what it would be at the time?

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: I think it was “I am unlovable”. Because it’s not the first time that that incident – that something like that has occurred. So it’s “I am unlovable”, because it’s happened on more than one occasion.

THERAPIST: And even if some people don’t love you in some moments, that statement “I am unlovable” on its own wouldn’t necessarily induce a disturbed emotion. It’s probable that you’re adding something to that, such as “as I should be”.

CLIENT: Right. Yeah.

[00:33:57]

THERAPIST: Alright, so now “Cherchez le should”. Cherchez le “should”. The more precise we are in identifying the irrationality of a belief, the easier and clearer it becomes to dispute it. When you started describing the ABC of this situation, you said that just hearing your mother say “I want to tell you”, you felt anxious.

CLIENT: Yeah, panicky.

THERAPIST: Panicky. So can you now identify probable irrational beliefs connected with that?

CLIENT: Oh, yeah.

THERAPIST: So let’s hear them.

CLIENT: Wait, I lost you. I’m sorry.

THERAPIST: So you felt panicky and anxious you said, as soon as your mother gave her familiar line of -

CLIENT: Oh, I gotcha, I gotcha, I gotcha. “I just want to tell you something”.

THERAPIST: Yes. So look at that “I just want to tell you something”. Now, many humans who hear “I just want to tell you something” don’t feel panic or anxiety. So what are your thoughts when Mummy says that -

[00:35:00]

CLIENT: Well it’s the tone, there’s a tone to it.

THERAPIST: There’s a tone, and what do you tell yourself?

CLIENT: Now I understand. So, I tell myself “you shouldn’t”. I immediately start with “you shouldn’t”. Whatever I did, I shouldn’t have done. That’s number one. That’s actually the first, the go-to thought. “Jessa, you shouldn’t have done what you did”. That one I can tap into pretty quickly. But now I see what you’re saying, to extrapolate with the “I feel unlovable” as I – but I shouldn’t feel unlovable. I should feel loved by my mother.

THERAPIST: And perhaps you believe you should feel loved or approved by everyone. I mean in your life. It’s been a theme in the past, your needing approval.

CLIENT: Right

THERAPIST: In the past you shared about your waking up early in the morning, hoping you’ve done the right thing, made the right choice, remember a session early on when we spoke about that? So this need for approval, this dire need for approval, and very pointedly from your parents, maybe more so from your mother, is going to keep you suffering if you don’t continue the good work you’re doing. So, any more irrational beliefs before you dispute the life out of these ones right here and now?

[00:36:20]

CLIENT: Yeah. Let me think.” I should have not been so impulsive to say what I was feeling at the time”.

THERAPIST: And because I was so impulsive, that makes me…

CLIENT: “And because I was so impulsive, that makes me a thoughtless daughter”.

THERAPIST: As I shouldn’t be.

CLIENT: “As I shouldn’t be”. See, it’s always that ending.

THERAPIST: Well it usually is that ending, if the result is anxiety, panic or other unpleasantries.

CLIENT: Right. God. That part always gets me.

THERAPIST: You mean, until now, that part has not been as evident as you’d like it to be. You can’t say it always gets you, because always implies always: past, present and future, and you still have years of life left. [00:37:17] [cross talk]

THERAPIST: Remember, REBT procedures -

CLIENT: I feel like I’ll come back next week and then – alright, so let me ask you this. How do I get that part? You say that part I find -

THERAPIST: Which part? You are jumping from one thing to another – focus Jessa ….

CLIENT: The part – in other words, I can. Okay, so can we just do an example. Let’s do another example and I’ll show you, in other words, I don’t even think about that part. And that part, I guess is the practice -

THERAPIST: You haven’t thought about it until now is a more accurate way of saying it.

CLIENT: It goes three, it goes two, it’s like, the thought, and then there’s the next piece of it, and then there’s “as I shouldn’t be”. So I have to just get that sort of in there. [laughter]

[00:33:03]

THERAPIST: The probability of that comment being attached, do you understand?

CLIENT: Yeah, I do.

THERAPIST: If there’s panic, anxiety, all those negative emotions -

CLIENT: Chances are that that’s in there someplace.

THERAPIST: The chances are high that it may be. So, a new, heightened awareness of your thoughts, and greater precision in identifying the should and the musts, will help you. CLIENT: Okay, got it, got it. So are we on to the – so that was it on the irrational – I mean there are more, but -

THERAPIST: There may be, but let’s dispute what you already identified.

CLIENT: Okay. So the disputing was that this belief was not helpful, and probably not even true, the beliefs that I was mentioning earlier.

THERAPIST: Can I suggest greater precision? Your saying “Probably not even true”, whilst not being inaccurate, may not be as powerful as being more direct and asking “Where is the evidence?” Try to prove that it’s true. And when you can’t it proves to be more solid dispute.

[00:39:08]

CLIENT: I didn’t know I was a lawyer now. No, I’m just kidding.

THERAPIST: You’re not.

[laughter]

THERAPIST: But, if you look in the REBT book under the disputing section, there are three main forms of disputing, and one says “Where is the evidence?”

CLIENT: I looked, yeah.

THERAPIST: There’s the pragmatic, there’s the logical, there’s -

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Where is the evidence? In your instance...?

CLIENT: Okay. So, it’s my mother – I don’t know if this part is disputing, but I basically said it’s my mother’s irrational belief, it’s not mine, about her thinking that what I was saying was offensive, basically. In other words, that I could accept what she said, which is ultimately what I did, and just say I’m sorry that you feel that way, but that’s not even all what my point was. I was taking more preventative measures, and I was being serious by saying if you put plastic down, it really might, you know, prevent some further people, you know, incidents, or people getting frustrated or upset over wine spilling.

[00:40:20]

THERAPIST(jokes): Or just serve vodka, which has no color.

CLIENT: Yeah, or just serve vodka. (Laughs). So I looked at it as I was being preventative, so in other words, instead of taking it on – putting it on me, this is me disputing it right now, instead of putting it back on me that I did something wrong, or that I was bad or that I shouldn’t have said what I said, I was just expressing a – I was just giving another way of trying to look at the situation to prevent more dysfunction in that house, because I have to go there for the holidays. [laughter]

THERAPIST: Good. That will be a great opportunity, a great opportunity to practice REBT.

CLIENT: Thanksgiving. Okay.

THERAPIST: What you just did was hone in on the point that you are not responsible for how your mother feels. You are only responsible for your own thoughts and therefore the feelings you create within YOU as a result. So as part of the disputing, again, what’s helpful is clarity and precision. So to attack an irrational belief like “I can’t stand making my mother upset”, the dispute could be “Where is the evidence? -there is no evidence for my should. I was in truth only giving my opinion, and even if I had said something intentionally critical, she creates her own emotions by the way she interprets what I say. I am not responsible for that”. Do you see what I mean? So more directly, you see, when you give a more general statement, that belongs more in the E, in the Effective New Philosophies. Disputing is disputing. It involves questioning. One takes an idea and cuts it down. With logic, with pragmatism, seeking evidence, socratically. Makes sense?

[00:42:35]

CLIENT: Mm hmm.

THERAPIST: So what other disputing, if any, did you do on that?

CLIENT: Yeah, I just said, it’s not logical, those thoughts aren’t really logical. And then I just said it’s not really logical, it’s not in reality to – in other words, what I was really thinking, and I didn’t write it down, was that, I don’t think that my mother – she didn’t actually come out and say, “I don’t love you, you’re a terrible daughter”. I interpreted it that way, based on just a mere feeling that, almost like association, that I got because of her upset. That if I upset her, or if she says, “You upset me in a certain way”, then I immediately just jump to “I did this X, Y, and Z, and I shouldn’t have done X, Y, and Z”, when in reality, I said what I said, and it didn’t, it doesn’t change – the statement is out there, so it doesn’t make me unlovable or not the best daughter just because she didn’t like what I had to say or didn’t, or – I don’t know. I feel like I know what I’m trying to say but it’s not coming out.

THERAPIST: That’s why it’s beneficial to write with greater precision and directness, you know, write down the irrational belief and dispute that directly, otherwise it can seem a little more fuzzy and you can go from this to that.

CLIENT: Maybe I had a harder time with the disputing than I thought. I guess I just thought because of the way I handled it on the actual telephone call, that I felt that maybe on a very underlying level that I got the concepts without – in a sense, maybe not as much as, that I would like to at this point, but that I got it because I didn’t take it in as much as I typically do, in fact I just said that to me I could hear the irrational belief in what she was saying. I was able to pinpoint that she sounded irrational by saying that it upset her so much, because I said that that wasn’t the point of what I was trying to say.

THERAPIST: So at some point, you took it less personally.

CLIENT: I took it less personally.

THERAPIST: At some point.

CLIENT: At some point.

THERAPIST: Now, initially you told me you felt panic and anxiety. [00:45:01]

CLIENT: Initially, and then I calmed down, I didn’t answer her right away.

THERAPIST: Okay, so the proof is in the pudding, you’re already seeing evidence that you’re thinking somewhat differently.

CLIENT: It’s somewhat differently, yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: And I’m still going to keep encouraging you to do the written homework, though I understand that when you are in physical pain it is hard for you to write and –

CLIENT: Oh I did a bunch of them -

THERAPIST: Good. I understand. I also want you to read and re-read the section – which isn’t a large one in the book – on disputing, and to keep practicing clarity in identifying the irrational beliefs, and really honing in -

CLIENT: It’s just – can I ask you a question though Debbie?

THERAPIST: Of course!

CLIENT: Because there’s just so many irrational thoughts.

THERAPIST: Then just identify some at a time, don’t overwhelm yourself, do some at a time.

CLIENT: And I will, but I guess my question is, how do I ask this, how do you know the difference alright, here’s the question. Let’s try to make it clear. How do you know the difference – how do you know when a thought is irrational, and when it’s not? How do we just even do that? Because I have many thoughts throughout the day, and sometimes I don’t think I’m thinking at all, I think I just kind of want to move along, but there really are thoughts. There have to be, because we’re always thinking, even when we’re dreaming.

[00:46:17]

THERAPIST: No, we’re not always thinking. We can calm the mind, still the mind; people meditate, even while conscious.

CLIENT: That’s true. Okay. Well, that’s not me.

THERAPIST: In any case -

CLIENT: I’m not Buddha, or whatever, so in my case, I think I have lots of – maybe some stuff is a little more autopilot throughout the day, but then I would say, you know, other things have thought behind them. My question is, maybe it would be easier for me to decipher when I do have a thought, how do I even know if it’s irrational or not? I think that might be -

THERAPIST: Can you try now to answer that question? Think back to our talking about the difference between rational and irrational thinking … [00:46:55]

CLIENT: Um… Well, I guess I would have to think about the thought, and see if there was a “should” or a “must” or a “have to”, or an “always” -

THERAPIST: That self-enquiry – thinking about your thinking …

CLIENT: Which I’ve been doing, which I’ve been doing.

THERAPIST: That’s the answer.

CLIENT: It’s just there’s a lot of them, those thoughts, Debbie.

THERAPIST: Step by step. You’re already seeing progress.

CLIENT: Okay, we’re on six? Session six? [laughter] No, I have. I mean, I did it a lot today. I did it at work. I was catching the “shoulds” and the “musts”, so… In my head. You know, I didn’t write it, but I was catching it when I thought it.

THERAPIST: Albert Ellis used to frequently say that many species of animals think, but as far as we know, humans, in all probability, are the only species who can think about their thinking who can be aware, if we so choose. We humans can watch our thoughts and recognize, “Ah, look at what I’m telling myself.” We can choose to go into that camera part of the mind, looking upon what we’re telling ourselves. And so that is key, to choose to be mindful and more aware, to let debilitating emotions be a cue to amplify that awareness, and then to do what you just said you did – look for the demands. You answered your question, very well. “Cherchez le should”. Look for the should, the must, the ought. For any self-damnation, which is a lack of unconditional self-acceptance. For any damning of others. I am not saying not to damn bad actions, but not to put down the worth of the other person, or the worth of the you [00:48:44]

CLIENT: Right, it doesn’t change the – you might have a thought about, you know, and reflect, and say, that was a poor decision, or a rotten decision – and in fact, see I was just about to say, in fact, you ‘should’ do that, but no it’s that – that would be beneficial –

THERAPIST: Very beneficial, yes.

CLIENT: For the little girl student today to really reflect on that, and to realize that it doesn’t change her value, but it probably wasn’t the best decision that she made because

THERAPIST: There were unpleasant or rotten consequences.

CLIENT: Not that rotten, but yeah, there were consequences. Well, she missed recess.

THERAPIST: She what?

CLIENT: Missed recess. And the embarrassment in front of the class; I think for her, that was the bigger consequence. I’m only using her as an example because I relate to her, so sometimes when you can’t see your own, when you can’t see what you’re doing yourself, you can sometimes have your clientele reflect back on you a little bit, and I think I would have maybe acted similarly to her, I was the same, similar type of student, and if I had done something like that I probably would have had some similar feelings to her.

[00:49:57]

THERAPIST: So again, look at how you’re thinking differently than you did some weeks ago. You’re looking at her, and relating somewhat, and noticing, “Wow, this is what I did. This is what I can tend to do if I don’t watch it.” So, there is evidence that your awareness is widening. Alright, so any more disputing?

CLIENT: Um, well now that we’re doing it together, I would probably say that I think if my mother may not have approved of – maybe she was critical of that particular statement that I had made, but it doesn’t mean that she doesn’t approve of me.

THERAPIST: Good. And I would add to that, and even if she doesn’t approve of you, though I would prefer that she does, is it going to kill you not to have Mummy’s approval? Can you not stand it?

CLIENT: Can I not stand it? No. I mean, I can stand it. I wouldn’t have a choice.

THERAPIST: You have a choice to torture yourself, and keep demanding that you must please her and have her approval.

CLIENT: Oh, well she doesn’t already, so it doesn’t matter.

THERAPIST: Oh, but it matters to you, when you’re thinking you need it.

CLIENT: But you’re asking me if I can stand it. But when you say can I stand it, you mean -

THERAPIST: As part of the disputing.

CLIENT: Okay, so I’m going to dispute that one. I’m going to have to dispute it more, that I can stand it.

THERAPIST: And can you?

CLIENT: Yeah. I don’t like it, but I can -

THERAPIST: It’s healthy not to like it.

CLIENT: But I can stand it.

THERAPIST: Apparently you can !... You’re still alive.

CLIENT: Yes, I’m still alive. [laughter] So yeah, I think that’s it, on the – I mean I can’t really think of too much more, on the disputing.

[00:52:04]

THERAPIST: And how about effective new philosophies? Did you get to that?

CLIENT: Yeah, I just said I was only sharing my opinion, which is okay, and if she doesn’t agree or like what I have to say, it doesn’t make me unlovable or unworthy of love.

THERAPIST: Two different things. It might make you unlovable to her, which doesn’t mean you’re not worthwhile. Her love or lack of love of you -

CLIENT: I’m so confused. Okay.

THERAPIST: The area is unconditional self-acceptance. You’re choosing her to be the gauge of your acceptability according to how much she loves you or not.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: Okay. Is that valid?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: That’s my point. And your work, that I suggest, is to continue to make effort to convince yourself of that.

CLIENT: Yeah, I’m very aware of it.

THERAPIST: So with that awareness, what are you going to do?

CLIENT: Just continue to dispute any of the irrational beliefs I have around it.

THERAPIST: And I would also suggest reminding yourself, the effective new philosophy “I’m worthwhile, even if my parents don’t approve of me. I’m a fallible human; even if I talk without tact sometimes, it doesn’t make me damnable, it makes me a human who spoke her mind. I would like the approval and adoration of my parents, and even if I don’t have it, or don’t have it as much as I wish I did, it doesn’t mean I don’t have worth, it doesn’t mean I can’t stand it, it doesn’t mean I won’t find love from other people, and more importantly, I’m continuing to work on accepting myself unconditionally, as a fallible human of worth. Whether I do good or do bad actions.” Make sense?

CLIENT: Mmm hmm.

THERAPIST: And so using those effective new philosophies, remembering them through the day, like affirmations, can be preventatives. Does that make sense?

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: What are you thinking? You have an expression on your face that I can’t quite interpret.

CLIENT: No, it’s It makes sense.

THERAPIST: Any other effective new philosophies?

CLIENT: That was all I put down on paper.

THERAPIST: After you did that, did you feel differently?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: How so?

CLIENT: I think it just – it gave me – it was a little more empowering, because I was able to look at it on paper, and to look at the irrational – I was able to see it more clearly, that like, I did have a lot of irrational beliefs around the incident, or the activating event, and that my life my day, not my life could have been a little more pleasant had I not even done that to myself, and wasted – but the thing is, I wasn’t even aware. It wasn’t like I was then down for the rest of the day, but it was like, there, kind of lingering, but it wasn’t like I couldn’t get out of bed after that or something like that. It was there and I don’t think I realized how much it was, until I went to write it down.

THERAPIST: And in all probability, if you were not to attend to it preventatively by applying the ABC’s, with giving it thought, the next time your mother says, “There’s something I want to tell you,” you’re more likely to more quickly go into panic and anxiety, than if you have done your ABC’s on this issue before, and you may be able to prevent the anxiety, nip it in the bud, as soon as the “should’’ is rearing itself up, thinking something like: “So my mother’s going to do her same old thing, I can stand it.” Another thing I strongly recommend is not to take her so seriously. Prior to speaking with her, imagine the opening scene of the weekly TV program starring Roseanne Barr or whoever you find funny – I’m just trying to think of some comedians – who’s a funny man?

[00:56:55]

CLIENT: Um, Jimmy Kimmel.

THERAPIST: Okay – so picture Jimmy Kimmel as Daddy, just try to see what happens in your home as a TV scenario, and take it less seriously than you’ve tended to do. So there’s 1…being precise, and catching the irrational beliefs, and disputing the life out of them, and coming up with effective new philosophies, that you remind yourself of, every day every day every day, and there’s 2….also choosing to see the funny side, and to take it less seriously. Make sense?

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: Any thoughts or questions?

CLIENT: No. I don’t have any.

THERAPIST: You were going to tell me how you actually handled -

CLIENT: Oh. Oh my goodness. What did I say? So, no, I basically just, I listened, after she said “I have to tell you something,” instead of reacting, I kind of just calmed down, and just listened, and let her express, and just said “I’m sorry you felt that way, but that’s not at all, you know, that I was really only saying it because I was trying to be preventative with, you know, using preventative measures so that for the next event, you know, I said – oh, I know what I said, I know what I said. She said “Well you, you made me feel “

THERAPIST: What phrase that your mother uttered did you just catch?

CLIENT: No, I just, I know, I know that she says that.

THERAPIST: Then say it – what does she say?

CLIENT: “You made me feel…”.

THERAPIST: Did you make her feel….?

CLIENT: No, but she’s – that’s -

THERAPIST: She believes that.

CLIENT: She always says that to me. I want to say always, because that’s whenever she says “I have to tell you something”, she’ll say, “You made me feel”, blah blah blah.

THERAPIST: So what’s your work whenever she does that?

CLIENT: Tell myself that I didn’t make her feel that way, or I don’t know.

THERAPIST: Exactly. You remind yourself. Eleanor Roosevelt said “What you think of me is none of my business”.

CLIENT: I know that.

THERAPIST: So, she made herself feel that way. And you can allow yourself to make yourself feel panic and anxious as long as you take it seriously.

CLIENT: Exactly. So yeah, so I just said – but then I related to her, because really, instead of looking at it in a sense that my parents are neurotic or obsessive-compulsive or whatever they are, I like my things a certain way, too, so I said, I was really saying it because I can completely understand. I said, if I was having people over, I’d have plastic. So I said, because I like my apartment really nice. And then she was crapping up on the whole thing. And so I sort of – but that was a newer thing for me, because lots of times I can just get really defensive. And so instead, I just sort of – I don’t want to say I, you know – it wasn’t that I side with her, it was that I really just understood from her perspective what she may have felt when the wine did spill.

THERAPIST: That’s sounds like you are moving in the direction of unconditional other acceptance and having empathy.

CLIENT: I was just empathizing, because I know if red wine spilled on my carpet, I’d be upset.

THERAPIST: You’d upset yourself.

CLIENT: Oh, yes, I’d upset myself. So then she laughed, and then after that I was able to write with a clearer head because I felt that I attacked the situation a little bit differently than -

THERAPIST: Attacked it? Handled it !

CLIENT: Well I felt it was attacking it, because trust me, I’ve had some experiences with these types of things. And so it can go in really bad directions – it has, they have gone in really bad directions.

THERAPIST: That’s been a past reality.

CLIENT: So this one didn’t, and so that was a pleasurable experience, after we hung up the phone, because I said “Okay, that wasn’t bad”.

THERAPIST: Yet again, well done. Can you give yourself credit?

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: This is very different, is it not?

CLIENT: Yeah, that -

THERAPIST: Let that sink in.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Look how you created, not only a different, healthy emotion within yourself, but you diffused the potentially -

CLIENT: Diffused. That was the word I was looking – yeah. That was the word. Right.

THERAPIST: potentially conflict situation with your mother, by your very attitude.

CLIENT: It’s true.

THERAPIST: Good job.

CLIENT: Thank you.

THERAPIST: Good job. Any comments or questions?

CLIENT: uh uh.

THERAPIST: We’re going to have to finish up soon.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: But I would like to ask, whether you did think about the area that we talked about last time, of needing your girlfriend to know that you have a cheerful, happy side -

CLIENT: We’ll get into this next week. We almost broke up, though, the night after, so – [laughter]

THERAPIST: The belief you had that you need to be positive and cheerful around your girlfriend. Did you do any more work on that?

CLIENT: Well, I did, because I said I’m – well, anyway. I don’t really want to. We can talk about that the next time, but we literally almost did break up, because I, that night, said, “I’m really, actually, miserable. Super super depressed.” [laughter] This is not funny, I’ve been extremely depressed, I said, I’ve been going through – this is a new relationship, and all she’s known in the relationship is me being in physical pain -

THERAPIST: Is that true, Jessa? That is ALL she has known? I doubt it.

CLIENT: For the first two months, no, and then ever since then, yeah. I’ve been in really, I’ve been in -

THERAPIST: You said that’s all she’s ever known. And now you’ve told me for the first two months, no, and by the way, have there not been some hours or minutes since then when you have been lighthearted? So I’m just pointing out your tendency to strongly overgeneralize, right?

CLIENT: Right. Well, the last -

THERAPIST: Can you see that?

CLIENT: Yeah, I do.

THERAPIST: Please, see that.

CLIENT: Well, anyway, in a nutshell, though, we did address that, because basically what I said was I can’t really promise that I’m going to be – you know, I said I’m not really feeling very cheery, and as much as I – you would probably call this not unconditional self-acceptance, I was accepting the fact that I’ve been feeling miserable. I can’t lie about it. It’s there, you know, so and then of course, she said, “Well, I love you regardless of your physical ailments”, so -

THERAPIST: That’s called unconditional other acceptance.

CLIENT: Right, so she accepts me unconditionally, you know.

THERAPIST: Let her be a model to you of how you can be towards yourself.

CLIENT: She helps me a lot. Yeah. She’s very -

THERAPIST: Okay, but you haven’t answered my question about your -

CLIENT: Sorry.

THERAPIST: It’s okay. Did you work on your irrational belief of “I need to be pleasant and cheerful”?

CLIENT: Yeah, that was what I was doing.

THERAPIST: In the situation you talked about with her, when she said “I love you”, my question was, did you challenge your irrational belief?

CLIENT: I did.

THERAPIST: You did? Good.

CLIENT: Which is why today, when my principal said “Every time I see you, you look like you’re in pain”, I said, “I am”. Because I don’t – I’m not putting out there. I think for a very – part of the energy of what was happening for these past six months is that I was attempting to be cheerful despite -

THERAPIST: Because you think: “ I must look a certain way, or I won’t be approved of, I won’t be loved as much?”

CLIENT: Right. That’s why I used that as an example just now, is that when my boss basically said “You look like you’re in pain,” you know, my typical, in the past, would have been “No, I’m good, everything’s great, you know, I’m fine” and I didn’t do that today, and I think the look was of, “Wow”, like, you know, “You just admitted that”. So -

THERAPIST: And you felt comfortable after that?

CLIENT: Yeah, I was fine.

THERAPIST: Good. Good, more progress. Well done. [ringtone] So there’s the telephone.

CLIENT: Sorry, I’ll just -

THERAPIST: That’s okay. Alright, well, as I mentioned earlier, next week I’ll be out of town at a conference, so we’ll meet in two weeks, but let me ask what homework do you think would be beneficial for you over this extra period of time, between you and I meeting now, and meeting again in 2 weeks?

CLIENT: I don’t know. Maybe the unconditional – maybe something with the unconditional self-acceptance part? If you could create an assignment for that?

THERAPIST: I certainly can. What I’ll invite you to do is to write down any and all beliefs that you can think of where you’re not unconditionally accepting yourself. The “I should’s, the “I need to …. or else”. And to vigorously dispute them. And to come up with a list of effective new philosophies that are -

CLIENT: Can I just get the pen? Thanks.

CLIENT: Okay, so basically devise, or come up with -

THERAPIST: Identify, not devise. Don’t think of any that have – well you can if you want, but certainly the ones that have lived in freedom and unchallenged within you until now.

CLIENT: Identify where I’m not using USA.

THERAPIST: Right. So the “should” you have about yourself. The lack of approval you have about yourself, and when. Give examples. Identify your irrational beliefs about you in that regard, and dispute, dispute, dispute. Re-read the section on disputing, so that you dispute more thoroughly than you might have done in the past. And then come up with your effective new philosophies.

CLIENT: And that’s devise.

THERAPIST: Well– creating the “E” – effective new philosophies often comes as an easy flow following the disputing in most places.

[01:08:19]

CLIENT: Well I’m looking at it as devising, because I’ve never done it before.

THERAPIST: Well, you may have done it, but just not identified it the same way.

CLIENT: I haven’t identified -

THERAPIST: And then write a list of your effective new philosophies on a separate page. “I approve of myself, and though I’d like the approval of others, I don’t need it. I can still have a quality life even if my mother thinks I’m inadequate in 89% of the aspects of my being.” Whatever it is, a list of the effective new philosophies and read them every day.

[01:00:00]

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: So that’s honing in and noticing any lack of unconditional self-acceptance with a goal of you developing more of that, more more more, and being more aware of the tendency not to USA yourself so that you work hard to change that. In addition to that homework, I’d like to suggest that you do some full ABCDE forms. ABCDE.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay?

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Do you want to write that down, too?

CLIENT: It’s a lot.

THERAPIST: You have a few weeks, minus a session. So, the effort will be helpful to you, will it not?

CLIENT: Yeah, I’m just concerned about the writing, that’s all.

THERAPIST: Do the best you can. And if you can’t write, record it. And if you can’t record it -

CLIENT: Oh, I can record, yeah, that’s easy.

THERAPIST: So do what works. Do your best and do it. Anything else?

CLIENT: No, that’s it.

THERAPIST: Well again, well done.

CLIENT: Thank you, Debbie.

THERAPIST: Aren’t your positive changes already apparent?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Good job. Great.

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