TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Scheduling. How I understood it was you were ready for Mondays and Wednesdays.

CLIENT: Yes. If possible.

THERAPIST: I might need you to do Mondays and Tuesdays. There is somebody I see on Wednesdays who I think could move to Monday but couldn't do to Tuesday. That was why I could do either Monday or Wednesday but not necessarily both. That may change and, if it does, I will let you know. I was just trying to think what I could do. I assume the reason you wouldn't want Monday and Tuesdays is that they're back-to-back?

CLIENT: Yeah. Thursday would also work. I was trying to avoid Friday because... [00:01:03]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Because it's Friday. Depressed all weekend.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Is any other time but 5:15 workable? I could check with the other client.

CLIENT: I guess I can talk to Chet tomorrow and see if I can leave early one day a week or something. It's just that the mid-day appointments are really hard. I would potentially be working four hours or something like that.

THERAPIST: For the moment, you want Monday and Tuesday? [00:02:02]

CLIENT: See how it goes with that? Okay.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I'll see if I can think of a way I can do Monday-Thursday or something like that.

CLIENT: Okay. I'm also going to be away on the 27th and 28th.

THERAPIST: Okay. (pause) That's two weeks from today and tomorrow.

[...] (inaudible at 00:02:59)

CLIENT: [00:03:22] I had a really shitty Sunday which, in some ways, I should have realized.

THERAPIST: Sorry to hear that.

CLIENT: Thank you. It was kind of a frustrating week, in general, in that I had tried to invite... basically last week I really wanted to get some unpacking done, but I really wanted someone to just hang out and talk to me while I'm doing whatever. I tried to arrange it and two people ended up bailing last-minute. [00:04:01] I thought I could reschedule with one of them and then we actually hadn't. It was confusing but also [...] (inaudible at 00:04:15) and so I felt like I was doing a lot of trying to unpack and move things around. Ashby was away and if everything was a disaster the last couple of days, she won't care because – whatever. I ended up being really exhausted and it didn't go quite as well as I wanted. Saturday I was really tired and felt like I was beaten up. [00:05:03] Sunday I felt even worse, like very crappy physically. I was supposed to go to a friend's birthday party out in the burbs, but the idea of getting myself together and getting [...] (inaudible at 00:05:21), going out to the burbs, getting back, having to do that on the train, I was like, "I can't. I feel horrible and I don't want to talk to anyone and I feel horrible."

THERAPIST: That made you feel horrible.

CLIENT: Yeah. I also felt pretty guilty, both guilty and sad that I was missing seeing friends of mine who are awesome. [00:05:59] So I sent my mom this e-mail. I did not call her and I thought that it worked successfully. I sent her a couple of e-mails, but she still called Sunday evening and I didn't pick up. I think in the morning I was mostly physically tired, but in the afternoon and evening I realized it was just more emotionally wrecked out and not wanting to (pause)... I don't know. I guess I didn't want to talk to my mom for a couple of reasons, including that I'm upset with her and I feel like whatever conversation we would have would be really frustrating to me and I would feel like it was super un-authentic. [00:07:18] I wasn't really feeling up to managing both sides of that conversation and making it go. I just didn't want to talk to her. I also talked to two friends of mine who are very contentious with their mothers and also still see them [...] (inaudible at 00:07:49). Those were helpful conversations, but also depressing. [00:08:01] Jamie commented that her mom, among other things, loses her entire shit when Jamie – she can't handle the idea of Jamie being seriously ill. It upsets her.

THERAPIST: Physically ill?

CLIENT: Yeah. Physically ill. Her mother just was like, "No." First she was like, "Your father can't stay with you and help you out because he would just be in the way." She was categorically [...] (inaudible at 00:08:37). Jamie was like ugh. It was the same back and forth. Was her father allowed to come and help her out? Eventually her mother decided that her dad could pick her up from where she lived two days after surgery, drive her back to upstate New York, a fouror five-hour drive, and then theoretically Jamie could rest there – except that her mother wanted her to do housework and clean things and fix dinner and just would not acknowledge that Jamie just had surgery. It reminded me of my mom's intense rudeness when I was having [...] (inaudible at 00:09:39) surgery. I was just like, "Nope. [...] It's totally fine." I agreed with what Jamie was saying that both of our mothers have a hard time with the idea of us being, I guess, physically vulnerable or have to have major surgery or something medical. [00:10:13] I just really hate thinking of my mom in the summer with Jamie gone, since Jamie's mom is also crazy abusive.

THERAPIST: Right. [...] (inaudible at 00:10:22)

CLIENT: Yeah. My mom is weird. I think of her more like – there are other friends' moms who I think she's crazy weird like that person or she's really weird about that like Jamie's mom. I don't know. I just do not [...] (inaudible at 00:11:00) who – I don't know. [00:11:02] Her mother has done a lot of really strange sort of... her parents got divorced when she was in her teens and her mom did a lot of rewriting of what happened like, "I remember I came back to the U.S. for this reason." They were living abroad for a while because her dad designed stuff in various places, so she had to come back to the U.S. for some reason and her mom was like, "Well, I have sacrificed my life and gone back with you, my daughter." Then there was this whole thing like now her father had abandoned the family and was horrible and dramatic tearing up of photographs, et cetera. [00:11:58] It must have been hard to talk to her mom about did she sacrifice her life because her mom was very invested and upset. Very invested in being a certain way and can't be supportive and her sister married and she's kind of taking over her new husband's kids in a way, which is weird.

THERAPIST: [...] (inaudible at 00:12:30)

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) Jamie was just getting back to mentally (pause) I feel like talking to my mom about why I was upset. It's going to hurt her feelings and she's going to have this very intense, defensive explanation, sort of like, "This is why [...] (inaudible at 00:13:30) is totally fine." I don't want to talk to her about that. I also don't really want to talk to her and not talk about it, if that makes sense. I'm upset and I don't really feel like it. [00:14:02] (long pause)

THERAPIST: Yeah. I imagine you might find it very difficult because you're really sad and I think sometimes you get upset to be upset. [00:15:06] That didn't sound like how I meant it. It's upsetting to be so upset. I'm okay to be so upset.

CLIENT: Yeah. I think part of why it doesn't feel okay to feel upset is that I don't want to talk to her about it. Usually I tend to want to over-explain and over-communicate, I guess, sometimes. In this case, I just don't even... I think I would like to communicate with her. I just don't see that happening. Anyway, that would be frustrating. [00:16:06] I also feel like I can't talk to my dad about it because that is so literally just like talking to my mom. I think if I talked to my dad about how I felt he would just tell her or she would listen in on the line, one or the other.

THERAPIST: I imagine also that he would sort of take it in a little more than she would, but he probably wouldn't have much to say about it. He'd take it in and you would know that he wished you well and was not happy that you were upset, but he would also sort of not be entirely there with you listening to it. [00:17:09]

CLIENT: Yeah. In this weird way, it's kind of like [...] (inaudible at 00:17:22) for a long time, but it feels like [...]. If I'm really upset about these bazillion things and they're like, "Hmm. I hear that you're upset." Or they don't really [...] (inaudible at 00:17:39) "Wow, that person was a jerk because they're not going to do what they said they'd do." Sometimes I feel a little bit like that. He's just not going to vocalize a response. [00:18:00] (long pause) [00:18:51]

THERAPIST: I think the kind of [...] (inaudible at 00:18:58) of things having been this bad is complicated in that I don't think it's robbed you of having to talk to people about that. My impression is that, as you were saying before, you can talk to your friends about it when things like this happen. In a way, you talk to me fairly easily about it. In other words [...] (inaudible at 00:19:33) what happened, like you're upset about it, clearly. But I don't think you have this worry that I'm going to respond the way they do, that I'm not going to be able to hear it or I'm going to be kind of very circumspect in how I respond. It seems to me that the part that's more difficult for you is around having the upset. [00:20:00] There's something, I think, that's very dangerous about that in particular. That's sort of the sticky point. I can imagine with your parents acting the way you're describing, you really [...] (inaudible at 00:20:15) in talking about things that are upsetting or really worried they can't hear. I don't think it's you, but I think what does get more difficult or what gets you really worried is a kind of danger that goes along with being upset, that it's going to really upset the apple cart.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: One alternative there is for someone to respond in a way that makes you feel much worse, which has happened. I guess I'm thinking about the conversation with Zoe over Christmastime, I think. [00:21:06] I don't think it's just a worry about that. I think your parents have kind of left you with the feeling that really bad feelings are kind of like plutonium.

CLIENT: Yeah. It also feels like if the person is having really upset bad feelings, somehow they've lost the argument.

THERAPIST: Is clearly in the wrong?

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:21:58] It's somehow super inappropriate or not helpful or just sort of... it just feels like that's not what you're supposed to do. And if you do that, you've made some kind of communications mistake. I guess it's sort of like feeling upset, expressing that I'm feeling upset, feels somehow I'm sort of on the same level as if I were to start cursing at my parents or do something really... [00:22:58]

THERAPIST: Kind of outrageous and uncouth.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: The other person might put up with it, but they're kind of going to be holding their nose or somewhere in there, they're going to be resentful and critical. You're really trying to be nice, but come on already.

CLIENT: Like my sister is going to be like, "Wow. This is crazy." I think that's just like the person is going to be, "Oh, she's crazy," and might be nodding along but everything she just said is just like "whatever" because she's crazy.

THERAPIST: Yes. No credibility and is really off the wall. [00:24:00] (long pause) I see. So that's the way in which being really upset or feeling bad about a thing is in itself a really bad thing.

CLIENT: Yeah. Having that emotion feels like [...] (inaudible at 00:24:51) everything, sort of like it goes from "this person is upset for some reason" to "she's just being hysterical." [00:25:06] (pause) Also, it's kind of like (sighs) also to me again like a communication breakdown.

THERAPIST: If I can sit here and talk to you about it it's because I'm a highly-trained professional who has a lot of experience and training, having to nod along I sort of stay with something entirely non-credible incredible. I don't know. You know what I mean? Some of this kind of stuff.

CLIENT: Yeah. I think it also, even though I know I do it, it feels less like it's almost like I have to have, I guess, good, well thought-out reasons for being upset. (pause)

THERAPIST: This has caused you tremendous stress.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: This sort of kind of feelings, I think.

CLIENT: I think also why it's so stressful and upsetting is I feel like [...] (inaudible at 00:27:15). I'm really upset with my mom. You don't even call and express concern and then I feel like in her head she's going to say, "Well, you didn't call Mother's Day. So that's the same." Or like, "Why didn't you call? Please have a good reason." [...] (inaudible at 00:27:49) (pause) [00:28:05] And also my mom tends to be really like a pit bull. She gets on something and does not let go. I just really feel that the part I'm worried about is it's one of these things where she's going to bring it up next [...] (inaudible at 00:28:30). But in a way it works like I was the hurtful child and I was inconsiderate. (pause) [00:29:08]

THERAPIST: [...] (inaudible at 00:29:08)

CLIENT: The other thing I've been thinking about lately is if I want to really stay. Cambridge is paying for my degree, but do I want to stay or go where I want to? I feel like I'm so stressed and I'm miserable at Cambridge. I don't want to deal with it. Not working for Cambridge potentially involves me trying to take out a loan for tuition to stay for out-of-pocket or whatever. [00:30:07] I think if I asked my parents for the money they would say yes, but right now I just don't want to ask them for money because right now it feels like it comes with 40-bazillion strings attached. On the other hand, I guess I feel like if they're going to give me money for school, which it would be silly not to accept it. On the other hand, right now I'm just like [...] (inaudible at 00:31:04) accept it but... [00:31:05]

THERAPIST: Yeah. I imagine there's a sort of logical parallel to leaving Cambridge there, where you're thinking like I don't have the impression you're estranged from your mom or anything like that, but in some psychological way you kind of want to walk away from that.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That's, I think, part of what's so upsetting about yesterday was and it sounds to me like those things can be interchanged in your point of view, kind of like you're pointing towards Cambridge more, a kind of upset about how things are between you in general or other are awkward.

CLIENT: Yeah. It's one of those clear... I know people who don't talk to their family any more or do the most minimal contact or whatever. [00:33:05] It's almost like I feel I disagree with them, but most of them I'm like, "Huh. That sounds really intense." I get really frustrated with my parents, but I don't want to not speak to them. Right now I'm just like nope. It's not that I don't ever want to speak to them again, but I'm more understanding of the impulse to do so. (pause) [00:34:00] It's sort of like the combination of the feeling like my mom was really kind of cold or callous plus her inability to talk about it plus me sort of feeling like – I don't know. I don't know if I feel like a little bit disingenuous this time with my mom, like I don't really want to hear about [...] (inaudible at 00:34:36). It's a combination of [...]. (pause) [00:34:58]

I guess it's also that my mom always seems kind of surprised and baffled when I'm upset about something. It's like every time she just seems to be like, "It's so weird. Why are you doing that?" I internalize a lot of that and work on non-internalizing that. It just feels weirder and weirder the more I think about it or try to understand what she's doing, as opposed to just accepting it. [00:36:01] (pause)

THERAPIST: Yeah, I think you maybe had pretty mixed feelings about wanting to look at how she can be this way.

CLIENT: Yeah. It's difficult. (pause) Yeah. Maybe it's difficult, in part, because I know so many people whose parents were horrible. [00:37:00] Then I'm like, well, I don't want to say that she's like that, but I also don't want to say that she was a sort of perfect parent. I do definitely (sighs) resent the bazillion-and-a-half areas about how mixed-race children are psychologically tormented by that.

THERAPIST: [...] (inaudible at 00:37:41)

CLIENT: Yeah. [...] (inaudible at 00:37:51) I'm not interested and I find it really frustrating in a bazillion ways. I also think sometimes that the desire to be like, "No. It's totally fine." [00:38:08]

THERAPIST: Oh, I see. You feel like people could read that as playing into those narratives which bother the hell out of you.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause)

THERAPIST: I see. It sounds to me like it doesn't have anything to do with it.

CLIENT: No, it doesn't. It's just one of those weird feelings where I'm pretty clear that [...] (inaudible at 00:38:51), but it's something that people keep on – it's a response that I've gotten many times and so has my brother. [00:39:15]

THERAPIST: Yeah. I remember you were relating his bi-polar element to that.

CLIENT: Yeah. In conversing people are like, "No. Having trans-origin racism means that you are a rainbow love child who understands everyone." I'm like, "No. Not really. It just means that my parents were of different races." And actually I think the bigger difference is that they're from [...] (inaudible at 00:39:48).

THERAPIST: Yeah. I think when kids have parents who are very different for any number of reasons it's more part of the story. When they come from [...] (inaudible at 00:40:06), they just happen to be very different people, you know? [00:40:08]

CLIENT: Yeah. No. I agree. To me a lot of the things that people who are friends of mine will come to see as odd or unusual or like I was kind of related to that, they're almost always like – so my mom grew up in Europe. I don't know what else to tell you.

THERAPIST: It's like there is some piece of her, how she is around emotions, that there is some part of it that there is probably some contribution to make from her culture. You probably know a lot better than me. But from my understanding...

CLIENT: Not expressing...

THERAPIST: Not saying what [...] (inaudible at 00:40:57)

CLIENT: No, and I see that in all mothers. [...] (inaudible at 00:41:03) Just like "yep." That's happening. [00:41:10] Even my cousins who are my age who are more expressive than our parents, there is still [...] (inaudible at 00:41:23). I'm like, "Okay, I get some privacy, but..."

THERAPIST: Whoa.

CLIENT: Yeah. One of my cousins, his wife didn't want to talk to her mother-in-law about her pregnancies at all basically. So when she first got pregnant her mother-in-law would call and chit chat about pregnancy stuff. How is it going? [00:42:03] Sage is a private kind of person but it's just like, "You're having a baby. I had a baby." She eventually asked her husband to tell his mom to stop calling.

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: She just didn't want to talk about it at all. Wow. Okay. It just seemed a little more excessive, a little more [...] (inaudible at 00:42:36) than was needed. Even one of my other cousins were like, "No, blah-blah-blah." There is still a lot where we can never discuss our feelings ever. That's not an option. (pause) [00:43:03] My dad's family is also circumspect about things; it feels like it to me. (long pause) [00:44:01] I think that's a lot of the fear of having negative [...] (inaudible at 00:44:06) emotions [...]. Also my cousin, who is my age, I'm a little bit [...]

THERAPIST: On your dad's side?

CLIENT: My dad's side. Yeah. Daniel has this really kind of explosive kind of temper. He's had that since he was a teenager. When he was a teen it manifested in many ways but it also include for like – I don't know. He had a bad temper and started using drugs and drinking. [00:45:03] All this combined in him having just screaming fights with his parents and then he punched in the window of his mom's car more than once. He punched it in and broke it. He used to try to scare her and harass her for several years. I feel like part of what I feel like, feels like if I get really upset then obviously the next step would be punching in the wall or window. Daniel, thank God, doesn't hit people mostly. [00:46:02] He tends to hit the wall, the window, this thing right next to you. And he's also pretty big and intimidating and has a lot of anger, so it's super scary and also very much like my dad's commentary on it is, "I know that your mother didn't raise you to act that way. I know my sister didn't raise you that way, therefore other kids were raised the right way, which is not getting really upset." [00:47:02] I know that's mostly like "mother didn't raise you to get upset and punch something" but...

THERAPIST: It kind of comes off as... We need to stop. I'll see you tomorrow.

CLIENT: All right.

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