TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

***Note: There were a total of four speakers from 00:00:00 to 01:13:55. Audio was excellent, but there were several blocked passages from people talking at the same time.

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

(door opens) (inaudible)/blocked

MOTHER: Hello!

THERAPIST: Nice to see you, too! Come into (inaudible).

FATHER: She’s aware it’s out here, right before you open the door?

THERAPIST: (laughs) I have... treats for her when she’s in here.

MOTHER: You can come see me later, kitty. There we go!

THERAPIST: She is kind of getting into a routine where she runs out and meets people, and then comes in. It’s kind of endearing!

MOTHER: Yeah, it’s very cute! Is she back in?

THERAPIST: What’s that? Yeah, she just came back in. Let’s see. Did she do her trick for you guys last time?

MOTHER: No. We haven’t seen a trick.

THERAPIST: (crumpling paper) One of her fancy tricks... “Do your trick!” (pause) “Can you do your trick? Wait! Oh, you’re not interested in the trick!”

MOTHER: I don’t have, I don’t have anything!

THERAPIST: You remember these people were your friends last time!

MOTHER: Look at that tail go!

THERAPIST: Okay. Now you can do your trick.

MOTHER: I want to see it, (inaudible).

(pause) (all respond with “Ooooh!”) [00:01:11]

THERAPIST: Good job! (all chuckle) (pause) I said it’s not a very fancy trick, but...

MOTHER: But a cat that does a trick is pretty fancy.

FATHER: I knew a cat that would retrieve popcorn! You’d throw it and...

THERAPIST: Her kitten, who’s about nine months old now, just got his operations done, will play fetch for time on end! I keep throwing the mouse, and he’ll keep getting it.

MOTHER: That is funny! I’ve only known one cat that did that.

FATHER: Did you do the tape recorder last time?

THERAPIST: Yup.

FATHER: Okay.

THERAPIST: See it?

FATHER: I didn’t.

THERAPIST: It hides right there in the...

FATHER: Oh.

THERAPIST: It’s like almost, you don’t even notice it.

FATHER: No. I didn’t. Obviously! Huh! I didn’t notice it last time, and I didn’t realize that you’d started...

THERAPIST: Well, I try not to remind you of it, not to be tricky, but just so we’re not thinking about it. The best way to do radio is, you just get in there and talk to people in the studio. You don’t think about the mic, so. [00:02:08]

Okay, Mr. Kevin! We’ll find your... information here. Would you say you have had a good couple of weeks?

KEVIN: Oh, yeah. I think it’s been pretty good.

THERAPIST: Really? I thought I would check you first today to see... You’re not wearing your glasses; you’re wearing contacts today or...?

KEVIN: No, I just forgot my glasses at home.

THERAPIST: I, too, have done this (inaudible). That’s why I have the, like an assortment of them laying around (inaudible). So, you think you had a pretty good couple of weeks. Tell me what you think was good about them.

KEVIN: Well, um, I’ve gotten all my grades up from F’s to D’s and C’s now. Um... I haven’t had any late work for a little while. Uh, well, I haven’t had any late work since the last time we were here. And then... [00:03:10]

THERAPIST: Because that’s two full weeks! That’s pretty good.

KEVIN: Yeah. And, um, I did pretty bad on my Science test, but that was the day that I forgot to wear the patch. And, um... (coughs) You know, I misunderstood a lot of the questions. Yeah. It was pretty bad.

THERAPIST: Normally, I don’t, I’m not like, “Oh, Kevin; I feel sorry for you,” but (chuckles) if you’re taking a test and you’re off your medicine for a day, unless it’s built up in your system or built up some resistance and you don’t have it, yeah, that’s not a very good day to take a test. (client affirms)

FATHER: That’s why it’s important to do it every day.

THERAPIST: Amen!

MOTHER: I think that day we...

KEVIN: Well, that day we were out.

MOTHER: We thought we were out, and I, yeah, like, “I didn’t know we were out,” “You have to tell me,” you know, that kind of thing. But, it turns out, we actually had some still, but that day, we... you know, we didn’t...

KEVIN: Yeah, I didn’t see any there.

THERAPIST: On your next batch, it’s probably a good idea to put one in like a pill bottle and you’ll have to show them... Like if you use one of the old boxes, it has the prescription on it? (mother affirms) Send that and the one in the pill bottle to the nurse’s office... [00:04:21]

MOTHER: Ooooh!

THERAPIST: He can put it on late. Because this medicine, this has the property of being able to be turned off, he can take it late.

MOTHER: That’s a good idea, yeah.

THERAPIST: All other stimulants, you can’t take late, because once you take them late, then you’re going to be up at night. So, that’s how we do it in my world. We make sure and have one at school. It’s an emergency back-up in case it falls off or someone forgets to put it on.

In your defense, yes, we, too, have had that problem in the past, and we are the patch applier, so... It does happen. Once you get into a really good rhythm with it, it’s just a natural part of the process. One of you will notice if it’s not happening. But... that will happen. That was a bad day to be off it. You noticed the difference, huh?

KEVIN: Oh yeah! A lot! Like, I was reading a book, and it was hard to stay on the same line. And then I, when I’d skip down the line, I’d realize I was reading the same line over again. It was really hard to focus. [00:05:23]

THERAPIST: That is a pretty good description. So...

FATHER: What about dosage?

THERAPIST: Hold that thought. That’s (chuckles), I wanted to ask about that, too, because he’s on a 10 or something, isn’t he? He’s on the lowest dosage? Okay. Let’s talk about that in a second. So does it feel like enough, or not?

KEVIN: It feels like the perfect amount, because I can still like, have fun with my friends and not be serious all the time. And... yeah. I mean... I can have fun with my friends, not be serious, not be 100% serious, but when I start doing work, I am really focused on it.

THERAPIST: Okay. Are you eating?

KEVIN: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay. So what else has been good, before I interrogate the parents about this? (chuckles)

MOTHER: I’ll pray for that (ph).

KEVIN: Getting up in the mornings... homework... Like the 80 minutes homework. [00:06:23]

THERAPIST: Is, that you’ve, you mean you’ve been doing it without trouble?

KEVIN: Uh, there was one time where I wanted to take a shower, but I didn’t have enough time, so...

THERAPIST: So you...

KEVIN: So I just, I put up a little... fight, but it didn’t last very long. It probably lasted like five minutes, and then I started doing my homework.

THERAPIST: Did you take a shower after the homework? (Kevin affirms) Did you what, not smell very good? Was this a problem?

KEVIN: (chuckles) No, I didn’t have my deodorant in Gym because somebody took it and smashed it on the floor. I didn’t tell you this, but (chuckles) somebody took my deodorant out of my locker and smashed it on the floor! So I walk in, and there is this one big blob of deodorant, sitting on the floor. [00:07:15]

THERAPIST: I presume this is a person who does not then have to sit next to you in class? (all laugh, Kevin affirms) It doesn’t seem very wise to me, for such a person to do that, so... All right. So this was a, you perceived that as sort of a minor disagreement. Then you did the 80 minutes of homework, then you took the shower? (Kevin affirms)

Do you think, as you look back, sitting in the “wise people’s chair,” because you always seem so wise when you’re in here! (Kevin chuckles) It’s like, I don’t know the Kevin that they’re talking about. So you’re in the “wise chair” now. Do you think, as you look back on this, that it was probably smart for you to go ahead and just do the homework for 80 minutes?

KEVIN: Yeah, I was really cold through the whole thing, though. I had to bring up a heater, but, yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah, you don’t have any fat on your body, so I imagine you get cold easily. You might want to like, get a sweater. I have kind of a cool looking sweater here. (Kevin chuckles) Not like a weird sweater, you know. It’s like, just like a fleece kind of sweater, you might want to get one of those for that, because... (Kevin chuckles) [00:08:19]

FATHER: And not mine!

THERAPIST: And not his! (chuckles)

KEVIN: Yeah, he was just like, “You’re not wearing my jacket!”

THERAPIST: So, he like borrows yours, huh?

FATHER: Oh!

KEVIN: And I said, and it actually fit me now.

FATHER: Even after I’ve said not to.

KEVIN: Yeah, but then, he doesn’t wear it. Not...

THERAPIST: That doesn’t make it yours! (all chuckle). Once we get your brain right, then we’re going to start working on all the other... principles of life. One of them is that you practice radical honesty, and (inaudible), I’ve guess, talked a little bit about that. That means you also don’t borrow people’s things unless they give you express permission.

That will come in very important... I know you’re going to be like, “How did you get to this?” But in the dating world, when you’re with a girl, you need to be clear what your permission is for anything you do. It starts with knowing whose jacket not to wear (Kevin chuckles) and it continues on in life with knowing who not to kiss and when. So consent is important. [00:09:20]

All right, guys. Time to check out your thoughts on things. That was a very nice presentation you made, Kevin.

MOTHER: Well, can I fill in a few of his? When he’s talking about the shower, our house is cold and so he historically likes to, he did a lot of studying in the bathtub. He said shower, but he meant... right... you wanted to take a bath that day.

KEVIN: Like, yeah, like I usually read...

MOTHER: And do homework in the tub while he’s doing that.

THERAPIST: Well, that is the weirdest thing I’ve ever heard! (Kevin chuckles)

MOTHER: So, just, yeah, I don’t know, you didn’t, you didn’t ask him further about that, but there is that, so I just said, let’s, that’s you know, “Let’s do what you have told us to do,” and it was kind of a little, like he said, it was a short battle. He wanted to take a bath, he was mad there for a little while, but he got past it. I think he did was supposed to do, so that was just kind of... but that’s about...

THERAPIST: So he did actually... that would be like... like the regular teenage boys, that they don’t like something, and they’re upset, and then they go ahead and do it.

MOTHER: Right. Right. Exactly.

THERAPIST: Okay. If we can just get you up to the normal level of disagreeableness, that will be good! (all chuckle) I will defend you, if you just are as disagreeable as most teenage boys. Okay, so that’s good. So what, tell me your other thoughts on the last couple of weeks and all the things he mentioned and any you want to add. [00:10:28]

MOTHER: I think he made great strides these last two weeks. We, after our last meeting, we went directly...

THERAPIST: Way to go, Kevin!

MOTHER: ...we went directly to a Teacher-Parent Conference and...

THERAPIST: Yup. I remember you were on the way.

MOTHER: ...and they, instead of being frustrated, they were like, “Okay, (slapping sound) this is what we could do! Let’s do this! And I could do that! And Amy, you can do this.” I mean, they all five teachers, sat in one room and just brainstormed what they can do to help the situation. And so that’s...

THERAPIST: That’s nice to hear!

MOTHER: It was incredible! I mean, beyond what I expected at all. Rather, yeah. So anyway, they have pulled him out of PE. He has PE and then Strength and Conditioning. So two kind of PE-ish classes. So they pulled him out of PE, and during that hour, he goes to the Math class that he has, but it’s a different, it’s the same class, but different hour. And so he can sit... [00:11:27]

FATHER: With less distractions.

MOTHER: ...with less distractions.

THERAPIST: What’s, now what’s less distracting about that?

FATHER: The people in the class!

THERAPIST: Oh!

KEVIN: Well, like...

THERAPIST: Nice move, guys!

KEVIN: Usually, when I’m... they’re not... well, they’re distracting when the lesson hasn’t started, but like before class you know? Like, they’re talkative, but then when the class starts they’re, they all start working.

FATHER: Supposedly, too, it’s got students that are in there that didn’t pass it last year. So they’re in it again this year and they’re a little bit more bored and...

MOTHER: Angry.

FATHER: ...disinterested and angry.

THERAPIST: These would be the distracting people? (parents affirm) That makes sense. Now that was a good move. I did not have faith enough in (chuckles) your ability to make that happen, to suggest it. But it is always wise to look at those things and see if there are specific factors in a class. [00:12:18]

It’s a very tricky balancing act, because Kevin must not use things as excuses for why he is not succeeding, but if he will gain credibility with us, then you can believe that if he says this situation is really distracting, or this teacher really doesn’t instruct well, if you gain credibility, Kevin? Then people will listen to that, and make adjustments, like they’ve done here. (Kevin affirms) So, that is as good a scenario as I could imagine, and you’re just going to have to keep doing that, through the...

MOTHER: Well, we’d like to take credit for it, but it wasn’t us. The teachers came up with it! (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Well, yeah, chance favors the prepared mind, and you guys were ready to go. Chance came along and offered you a shot, and then you took it, so...

MOTHER: Well, what was more remarkable about that... And that was kind of the biggest change, I think, was we were a little bit fearful of how he was going to react to that.

THERAPIST: To the change? (mother affirms) [00:13:20]

KEVIN: I don’t mind it at all, because...

MOTHER: But he did, he came back (because we didn’t tell him; we let the teachers tell him), and he came back that next day and said, “Oh, I’m excited about this! It’s going to work out really...” He was totally onboard with it. So...

FATHER: Well, part of it was they... prepare a sheet with each day’s assignments on it and they sign off on it...

MOTHER: Has that been happening?

FATHER: ...every hour.

KEVIN: Yeah, it’s been happening. But I never really use it. I mean... like, I never look back at it, but I always get everything turned in, but...

MOTHER: Okay. I mean, they go through effort for that, so we need to make sure we look at that and make sure we have everything, okay?

THERAPIST: The only danger in that system is sustainability. The changing classes around, sometimes moving a person in the classroom (the ADD people tend to do better like, on the front row, just simply because there are not as much stimulus between them and the teacher), things like that tend to stick pretty well. Setting up study halls and things like that stick pretty well. [00:14:24]

That thing where they do the paper every day? If you can get them to stick with it, that’s great. But that sometimes is a bridge too far with them. They’ll say they’re going to do it, and they don’t follow through. In the end, it depends on you, Kevin, to be on the to-do list and all that stuff, because that’s an external system for doing what we talked about last time with your own like, to-do list. We did to-do list with you, didn’t we, and calendaring last time? Oh, wrong kid! (laughs) Ahh!

FATHER: I think it was that other guy!

MOTHER: Sounds good! We need it! That’d be great!

THERAPIST: Yeah, there are so many other guys in this situation! All right then, let’s actually talk about that for a second, because it fits right here.

KEVIN: Well, I think we did talk about calendars, like on my phone and stuff?

THERAPIST: That’s what...

MOTHER: Oh! Is that what you’re talking about?

THERAPIST: That’s what I’m talking about.

MOTHER: Oh, I’m sorry! Yes, you did talk about that. I’m sorry. [00:15:12]

THERAPIST: Great, okay. I so completely remembered having that. You know, I don’t listen to the tape, so (chuckles) I was sure. Sometimes, I have like these dream conversations with people. So you leave and then I go on, and I’m driving home or something, and I’m thinking, “Oh, yeah. I should say about calendars and to-do lists to Kevin.” And then I really think it happened! (chuckles) And so...

MOTHER: I’m sorry; you’re right! We did ask the teachers about if he could do that on his iPhone and they said, because once they have the iPhone or an iPad, then they can’t regulate whether they’re, or they can’t, they don’t know for sure if they’re using it for the right purpose. Once he does it, then everybody... So they were like, this... they did not want to open that door.

FATHER: And I’m sure that, yeah, if they let one kid, then others would want to start doing the same thing.

THERAPIST: That’s why it’s best to have some formal agreement, like an IAP or 504 (ph). They’re trying to sort of avoid that now by being helpful, which is great. But we’ve never had trouble where we’ve had those set up with the school. [00:16:13]

Phones are a little more of a problem, because they’re used for things sometimes that they shouldn’t be. IPads, it’s less of a problem because they’re big and easy to keep track of what the kid is doing. If we don’t want to move on that just yet, that’s fine. But that’s, they’re going to have to catch up. L.A. just bought an iPad for every kid in the classroom, so...

FATHER: IPad I can see...

THERAPIST: ...they’ve had nothing but trouble with them, by the way, but for whatever...

MOTHER: Oh, really?

THERAPIST: ...for other... their filtering software and everything, they didn’t deploy it very well. But they’re headed in the direction they should be. The iPad, you’re right, isn’t just as, you know, they can block the... service and stuff in schools pretty easily, so they’re just used for what they’re supposed to be used for. Like, there is no signal at Tonganoxie, inside the school? So it automatically logs into their wireless, and their wireless is filtered, so you can’t use Twitter and Facebook and all that stuff. So, Forrester may not be quite up to speed on the... [00:17:12]

MOTHER: Well, who has iPads? Somebody out there, they’re test... there is a group, a class out there that does that.

KEVIN: Every Social Studies class has one.

FATHER: I was thinking in the high school that they did that.

MOTHER: But I mean, that...

THERAPIST: I wouldn’t be surprised!

MOTHER: So it’s, it’s starting...

THERAPIST: That’s why I’m surprised there are any... Did you say iPhone or iPad? Because that could have made the difference.

MOTHER: Well... I definitely said iPhone. I don’t know if I said iPad also. But I definitely said iPhone.

THERAPIST: Because, you know, he can link his iPad and his iPhone so they calendar together. Yeah, through iCloud. These, this, I am firmly convinced... Ruth (the cat), if you knock that microphone off!

KEVIN: It was tilting, so I had to slide...

THERAPIST: No, no, Ruth! Um, if... This is really the golden secret for kids with ADD, is to have this organization structure, so all of their devices talk to each other, and they can keep a calendaring and all of that stuff. So we can kind of build towards that. By college, he’s going to just have to have mastered that.

Just being able to send appointments to kids from my calendar is critical in getting them here. (chuckles) They come so much better when they have a reminder in their calendar, so the things that are kind of annoying about technology, like it distracts eighth grade boys from doing what they’re supposed to do... Doesn’t it sometimes, Kevin, distract you? [00:18:33]

KEVIN: Not that often, no.

THERAPIST: Oh, right, and (chuckles) there is a good side to it that... and you have to deploy the good side and deal with the bad. I knew you were going to say that, that it wasn’t distracting!

KEVIN: Like, it doesn’t really when I’m, you know, when I’m driving back from... my dad let me drive back the other night, from, we just delivered a full cord of wood to this one guy, and he let me drive back.

THERAPIST: And you texted while you were driving the whole way?

KEVIN: No! No, I didn’t even... think about my phone at all.

FATHER: You didn’t turn the music on?

KEVIN: Not on my iPhone.

THERAPIST: I wish they’d just turn the music on, on the phone, and not do anything else with it. Yeah, texting. Let me tell you, texting and driving is super-dangerous for everybody and it’s like, ten times more so for you.

FATHER: He’s... he’s good at that. I mean, in terms of... he’s a good driver and he’s cautious and cognizant that you don’t do those things. [00:19:39]

THERAPIST: Um, did we talk about... You mentioned the forgetting the patch that one day. Did we have a discussion about those first two or three days off the patch, when you’re taking a break?

FATHER: We did.

MOTHER: We touched on it, but I was confused, when we were supposed to do that.

FATHER: During like spring break and...

THERAPIST: Yeah. When the... those first two or three days he’s off (and then I want to go back to dosage in a second), those first two or three days he’s off, that’s really a time you need to be extra careful about driving, because even people who are pretty good at driving lose focus. But that description he gave, of having trouble reading and all that stuff, that’s the initial rebound effect of being off the medicine.

Your body begins to build a tolerance to it, like we talked about and then when you go off it, you get kind of a zinger back. So until you’re really... I would actually say forever, those first three or four days, just be very aware of your driving. Driving is the only thing that worries me about those first three or four days. So... Because that’s when they really have trouble tracking, so. He may, the ten milligrams sounds good, I think he’s describing it the way it should be. What’s your observation, both of you, about where you think the dosage is at right now? Do you think it’s right? [00:20:52]

FATHER: Um... (pause) I still see anger issues. And, and... (pause) more like, just not positive... (pause) I’ll go up to his room, and I’ll knock on his door and it’s (irritated tone) “What?!” Instead of “Yeah?” “Why is your door locked?” “I’m (sarcastic tone) studying!” (pause) And it...

THERAPIST: I thought he was studying down in the common area.

KEVIN: Well, after the 80 minutes, sometimes I’ll make sure I get some more stuff done, so...

THERAPIST: Okay. Go ahead, now I know...

FATHER: Well, it... I’ve had a more difficult week or two. It just seems like... he’s locked up in his room, unapproachable.

THERAPIST: And this is what time of the day? This is about now or...?

KEVIN: No, this is like around... last night it was around 9:00.

FATHER: Well, from 7:00 till 10:00. [00:22:00]

THERAPIST: (pause) Okay, so now that we kind of are on track with medicine... Well let me add one thing to it, and then I want to come back to this. So, he probably will need to go up some before a break. I think he’s... this is my best guess, based on experience. I think he’s going to be fine getting to Christmas, because it’s fresh at this point, in his system. I would estimate that by spring break, you may be seeing diminishing effects of the medicine and you may be feeling it. The more appetite you have, probably the worse that problem is going to be.

FATHER: Well, I’m also not a great judge, because... I’m not there during the day. I’m not there when he’s actually on the patch. [00:22:55]

THERAPIST: Well then, that’s the best thing about deploying this information to all three of you, is each of you can watch it. So the farther forward in time he gets, the more his appetite will come back fully. He’ll get hungry. Like, my kid, at this point, is as hungry as he ever can be, because we are just at the tail end of his medicine cycle. We probably need to take him up one little notch, because we do a partial patch, and he’ll be okay until Thanksgiving. But you can just tell, because of how hungry he is. The medicine doesn’t have as high an effect.

So as you, that’s one visual cue you’ll have, it’s one cue you will have, Kevin, is you’ll be hungrier. Preferably, if you can work this out with the prescriber, then you might go to the next patch size and then cut it down. I think I talked to you guys about the advantage to trimming (ph) about that. So, that’s an off-label use that you’re prescriber can okay, and if he has any worries about it, I have some resources he can take a look at. It’s Dr. Keeps, isn’t it? (mother confirms) So, that will give Kevin an incremental increase, because I think the next patch up is 20 or something like that. That might be a little much for him. I think it’s 20; they go in kind of large jumps (inaudible)/blocked. [00:24:14]

FATHER: I think it is.

MOTHER: I don’t know about this, this patch.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I think the next one up is 20. That’s probably too much increase for him. So, let’s see where it looks at Christmas. Do you hear me about what you’re looking for in yourself?

KEVIN: Um, increased levels of...

THERAPIST: Focus and appetite, right. Now, anger issues. Because we haven’t ever established that there is a connection between his anger and ADD. It could be his frustration tolerance, played out in anger; it could be something else. Since he doesn’t... Do you think he’s worse on the medicine, better, or the same? Or any of the above.

FATHER: Again, I’m not the greatest judge, because I’m not around. It’s probably better, but...

KEVIN: I can tell it’s better.

THERAPIST: You think it’s better. I mean if Julie (sp) thinks it’s better...

FATHER: You know, if, if... If he and I are doing something and we’re going out, it’s great. If I’m at home, and I come home and I go up to see him or, I’ve come home at night and I’ll knock on his door, just to tell him I’m home; it’s just a negative response, it’s always defensive, and I don’t see him. [00:25:28]

THERAPIST: Okay. What time do you take the patch off? Time may vary a little bit, but...

KEVIN: Probably like, right around when I get home, don’t you think?

MOTHER: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Where did, did you get that fixed from last time, like if we were doing it, the (inaudible) waiting.

MOTHER: Because I think we have. I think... The problem with the dosage, I still am thinking that it’s probably a decent amount right now, because he’s leaving it on longer and we do... Like that week that he busted out all this homework and he was doing everything, he was great. I don’t think we really had many run-ins.

THERAPIST: Just to clarify how it works, because I think you’re right about something (inaudible). He doesn’t get more medicine by leaving it on longer. He gets the same medicine longer (mother affirms) and that’s actually a really critical distinction. So, I think what she’s saying is, you’re getting a longer period of functional-ness by leaving it on, which is good. Now, what you may be catching, Wes, and I don’t know this, but... [00:26:32]

FATHER: The come down.

THERAPIST: The come down. And... So there are two issues, and that may be one of them. The other thing you have to remember is, he’s halfway through his eighth grade year and they get a lot less... social (chuckles) at this point.

FATHER: And I get that. I understand that. I have a problem with not even being able to approach.

THERAPIST: Well, we probably should figure out how to troubleshoot that. Let me ask you this. Are you, as a person, Kevin, do you think... I don’t think I’ve ever asked you this before. Do you think you’re more of an introverted person or an extroverted person? Like, do you love to have a lot of friends, or do you like to have one or two friends and a lot of time for yourself? I do feel like I’ve asked you this. (Father denies)

KEVIN: I kind of feel like both. I like to have a lot of friends, but um... only if... only like a few like, true friends, but... like you know, Russell, Kevin, and Albert, you know then Jessie and people like that. (pause) But I also like to have a lot of time to myself. (pause) [00:27:44]

FATHER: For instance, if we go fishing, you’ll go by yourself sometimes. We’ll go off and he’ll go off on his own and... or even if he’s got friends, he’ll go off on his own and. I mean, I see a mixture of both. I don’t see you have a ton of... ton of friends that you’re very close with. (Kevin affirms)

THERAPIST: You do actually. That’s how I think of you. You strike me as someone who’s a little more introverted, which is fine. Half the population leans to the introverted side. You just seem like someone who’d like to fish over by himself, and then you could go see a friend or something, and that you would just sort of like that solitary time. Now, let me ask... Would you agree with that or do you want to argue the other? (Kevin affirms). Okay.

KEVIN: Like, we were at Roaring River and this guy... it’s a...like a fish hatchery and they let all the trout go into the river, but... There was this one guy that I was... I came down, I fish maybe, I mean, ten feet sound, doesn’t sound that far, but I mean, at Roaring River, it’s, it’s a nice distance because people are sometimes they’re like shoulder to shoulder, but... (parents laugh) [00:28:55]

THERAPIST: And you would not like that.

KEVIN: No, not shoulder to shoulder, but I wouldn’t mind ten feet, because, you know...

THERAPIST: Ten feet is about right for you, okay.

KEVIN: Yeah, but I had this one guy who followed me down the river and he was probably four feet away from me. I couldn’t stand it!

THERAPIST: That is a good story. That is exactly what I’m talking about.

KEVIN: But like, if I know the person, I mean, I wouldn’t mind it. And, um, like, with my friends, I’m not... so excited about just hanging out. I’d kind of want to go do something like... you know, I’ll, I’ll sometimes ask if a friend can come with us if we go hunting or fishing or shooting or something. But if somebody calls and asks if I want to hang out, sometimes I’ll say yes, sometimes I’ll say no, sometimes I’m just...

THERAPIST: So, is it easier for you to communicate with friends like, through texting and... I don’t know what else you use. What do you, what are your methods of communication? Texting and...? [00:29:57]

KEVIN: With all my close friends, I usually always call them.

THERAPIST: Oh, you actually speak into the box? (Kevin affirms) You actually hold this device (Kevin chuckles) to your face and talk to it? Wow, you’re an old-fashioned guy!

FATHER: I’ve never seen that! (chuckles)

KEVIN: Because you’re never home!

FATHER: Or you’re locked in your room!

MOTHER: I’ve never seen that either. I think of...

THERAPIST: But you do, you can communicate to them through phone and texting and all that, okay. Is that easier than face to face for you, or is it all kind of the same?

KEVIN: It’s all kind of the same, except texting is a lot easier, because you can say things that you usually wouldn’t say. Like you have more confidence, because...

THERAPIST: That’s what I’m looking for, right there. (Kevin affirms) And, just the way you said it, it would be like, if you want tell somebody to f-off, you’d text it to them. That’s not what you mean, I guess, right? Or is that what you mean? Like, would you say something ruder to someone in texting or...?

KEVIN: Well... probably not, but... if they were really getting on my nerves and they were insulting me and stuff... Like in person, I’d probably retaliate something like that, but not... [00:31:02]

THERAPIST: So, okay, so, when you were saying it’s easier to text than sometimes, do you mean it’s just, you can gather your thoughts and say what you mean easier in texting or...?

KEVIN: I really don’t know what it is about it, but I just find it to be easier to say... I just don’t know why, but... yeah.

THERAPIST: Girls are going to like that a lot. (Kevin chuckles) What were you going to say, Julie?

MOTHER: Well, I do think he texts a lot, but I, you’re right, I have heard voices coming from up in your room, so I think he does call more than I really was totally aware of. But I think the phone... when he’s locked in his room, I think that phone is kind a source of contention. I think that’s kind of the bud that everything stems from, because we, I think... I think he’s on the phone a lot and texting or calling, right Kevin? (Kevin affirms)

THERAPIST: But, and the contention is...

MOTHER: And I think without a phone, I think he’d be a human again. [00:32:03]

THERAPIST: Oh, see this is an interesting problem. Okay. Hold that thought, because I want to ask Wes something. So, you would consider a good like time with Kevin if you guys went fishing and you each had your space and it would be exactly ten feet...

FATHER: That’s what we do.

KEVIN: Yeah, like sometimes...

MOTHER: He goes that way, he goes that way.

KEVIN: Yeah, like sometimes, like this last time that I went dove hunting, I went off on my own and I was just dove hunting by myself. My dad, he was fishing probably, we... a mile away, we were probably a mile away from each other at the furthest. And... is there a problem?

MOTHER: Go ahead, go ahead.

KEVIN: Okay, but, um, I know that my dad would trust with me that type of stuff and... (pause) and then, so like, I’ll go off hunting on my, by myself, usually at my Aunt Mirna’s, usually not on public land. But... she has a lot of land, we both can cover a lot of land by ourselves. Sometimes, he’ll fish, and then I’ll fish with him, because we don’t get that chance to go at my Aunt Mirna’s a lot, but like when we go to places that we go to a lot, sometimes we’ll stray away from each other and then if we catch something, we bring it over to each other. [00:33:21]

THERAPIST: And so you would, at the end of the day, decide that was a pretty fun time with your dad, true?

KEVIN: Well, yeah, but like, at first we go out on our, by ourselves, don’t you think? And then at the end, we sometimes...

FATHER: There are sometimes we start out together, and then... go apart, but I mean...

KEVIN: Like...

FATHER: I consider it.

KEVIN: I think when we’re fishing, we go away from each other first, and then we start coming back. We’d say where we’re going, what we caught, and then we might go. If I had a better spot than him, then we’d go to my spot; and if he had a better spot than me, we’d go to your spot, right? We kind of scout around.

THERAPIST: So what would you like to be different with Kevin and your relationship right now, just that he isn’t so harsh speaking at night? (father affirms) Really that’s that simple.

FATHER: You know... my conjection(sic) is the door being locked and unapproachable, where we don’t have a communication. I... it’s not like I need to be up there and we need to be buddy-buddy, because I realize that’s not going to happen. [00:34:29]

THERAPIST: Well, I actually think you... I mean, maybe not at that time of the night, but that’s why I was asking about the hunting and fishing. It seems like you are. (father affirms) That’s like really pretty good at this age.

FATHER: Yeah. But it’s different at home.

MOTHER: He’s wonderful when he’s doing, getting to do what he wants to do; but anytime there is an ounce of frustration, or being told you can’t do that or this or that, that’s when it’s, that’s when it totally changes.

THERAPIST: Okay, and that part I’ve seen before. Now that we’re sort of in a good couple of weeks of you doing what you said you were going to do and all that, and I’m trying to sort of figure out what else is there. What worries you about the evening when he is unapproachable? What is your worry about that?

FATHER: I’m concerned there are things going on, on the phone, that shouldn’t be.

THERAPIST: Well, okay. Now I understand. (chuckles) So, because that’s a little different. What do you think he’s doing on the phone? Because this is really easy to figure out, I warned you about it, didn’t I? What do you think’s...

FATHER: Pornography. [00:35:34]

THERAPIST: Well, that’s actually really easy to fix. There is about a 99% chance that you’ve been looking at pornography on the phone, yup. I’m not going to even ask you.

KEVIN: That happened a long time ago and you know, that happened probably a year and a half ago.

THERAPIST: Was this on the phone or the computer?

MOTHER: The iPad.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay, because the pornography would be really little on the phone. (chuckles) That doesn’t seem like that would be worth your time. Okay so... short of the nuclear bomb I was proposing dropping on you, because you are working on it, and I’m going to not give him that yet... It’s very easy to get him a filtered browser on his iPad. I think it might cost you $20 a year or something.

The one I use is called Mobicip and you just shut off his Safari; it won’t work anymore. Mobicip takes the place of it and it has an app, or it has an interface online that you go in and set what you’ll allow him to look at. Now, I have to tell you (chuckles) it takes some tuning. I was on my daughter’s iPad once when we were travelling and I wanted to look up about Fort Washington, which is a fort outside of Washington. (Kevin chuckles) It was built after the Revolutionary, or after the War of 1812, because it didn’t go very well in the war of 1812, they just like burned the city. So they built this fort, set on the Potomac, south of the city. It’s never been used for anything, and now it’s a park. [00:37:05]

Well, so I’m on Mobicip and it’s like refusing to let me look at Fort Washington! And I could not figure out, like there are no naked women at Fort Washington that I’m aware of! And so I had to get on here and guess what blocked it? Weapons! I had not unchecked the weapons, and there are weapons at Fort Washington.

FATHER: Boy, that would kill you!

THERAPIST: Well, that’s why I (chuckles)...

KEVIN: I would literally die!

THERAPIST: That is why I’m bringing it up. You want to get in there and uncheck probably weapons. Look at anything else you in there, but it, it works great. The other thing, dear Kevin... they can set it shut off the Internet at 9:00. I just got a petition from my 17, almost 17-year-old, daughter the other day to make her iPad operate until 10:00. I was like, why do you need that? You’re supposed to be in bed at 9:00, 9:30! So I didn’t do it. But you can set it. [00:38:00]

I think it now has settings where you can change it on weekends and stuff, and that will take care of the filtering problem. You want to filter. Even though you’re not going to... he’s going to find... pornography is just too easy. I don’t know if you read, did you guys happen to read my white paper on this topic on my website? (parents deny) You might want to read it. It will blow your head off, believe me.

I did a radio show about it last month and... In order to make the radio show not itself pornographic, I (chuckles) wrote this paper and referenced it so people could read it. It’s got 12 pages that explain all of the issues of online pornography and teens at this point. So, that will give you a hint on that, but I’d go for Mobicip. Go ahead.

FATHER: I think it’s that, and I think he texts way past 10:00.

THERAPIST: Well, if you will... put that on there, you shut his stuff off at night, which I think... I think that you should have your stuff shut off at night, but I think that expecting you to self-regulate in not going to happen. There are no teenage boys and girls that self-regulate. They have to turn over their equipment at night and, if you just put that thing on there, you can have proper control over that. That’s not the spy software. That’s worse. This is just adding on/off switch for your Internet. [00:39:23]

KEVIN: So is it like completely turn off your phone?

THERAPIST: It turns off the... the ability to surf the Internet and I think it turns off your ability to get signal. I have to go back and study that a little bit, but you’ll figure it... it’s not very complicated to do.

MOTHER: Just (spells) Mobys...

THERAPIST: No, (spells) Mobicip. And I think you go to the... First you go to the store and download the app, and you... But the secret important thing is, you have to take over control of his own browser, so that you shut off Safari. You’ll have a passcode for restrictions, and you have to have your own passcode to do that, so that you can shut off every, you can restrict everything you want on there. Then you restrict Safari, but you won’t need Safari anymore, because Mobicip will do it for you.

It will take some tailoring, but you, because you are supposed to be a member of the team here. You sit down with them and say, “Listen, can you, this summer, can you add an hour to the end of the day?” Like, I would do that for my daughter in the summer. So they say, “Sure. We’ll do that.” [00:40:35]

I’m not 100% sure, but what you can’t shut it off for discreet periods of time during the day. Like if it’s study time, it’s off. I think you can do that, but just check out the Internet, because I haven’t modified mine in a while. They keep making changes to it. It’s specific purpose is exactly what we’re talking about today.

MOTHER: Well, my, more of my fear than that, I mean, that’s always a possibility, but is... like I said, when he, when things don’t go his way, he gets very angry. Not just mad, like we would get mad, but very angry: throwing things, just screaming horrible things...

KEVIN: That hasn’t happened in a while.

MOTHER: Well, Friday it happened.

KEVIN: Friday?

MOTHER: Just, just...

THERAPIST: What happened Friday?

MOTHER: But he gets violent and... (pause) Friday... I’m trying to think, why is that funny?

FATHER: Psst (ph) missed school.

MOTHER: Friday he... it was the day after Halloween. So I woke him up in the morning, he was like, “No, I’m sick.” Well, there are candy wrappers laying all around him. He has had a very bad cough lately, so I mean, I tried to be as fair as possible. [00:41:42]

KEVIN: It seems like you’re being more fair now. And Dad said that I couldn’t have any candy that night. And I didn’t.

MOTHER: Kevin... Okay. Then, so, I go to wake him up, there are candy wrappers all around him, you know, where his head is laying and all that kind of stuff. So, I said, “Kevin, there is, every kid in the United States doesn’t want to go to school today. I don’t want to go to school today. We’re going to school.”

You know, anyway, so I did not allow him to stay home from school, even though he didn’t feel well, because it wasn’t a flu-like thing or whatever. So that didn’t go over well at all, and it was just, you know, it was pretty ugly in the morning. Our mornings don’t go real well.

KEVIN: And then I... she finally... I finally got out of the bed, so I could go to school for her, so she wouldn’t be mad. I got up...

THERAPIST: You actually, Kevin, you really went to school for you, because your mother doesn’t have to graduate from the eighth grade.

KEVIN: No, I mean... I went so she wouldn’t be mad.

THERAPIST: Oh. [00:42:42]

KEVIN: So I got up, she said, “You can still catch a ride.” So I got up, I got ready as quick as I could, and then I go back upstairs to grab my phone. I come back down and she’s pulling out of the driveway. And then, so I... she made me...

THERAPIST: Because you were too late?

KEVIN: Well, she never warned me that she was leaving. I was going upstairs to grab my phone and just on my way back down, I looked, and there was nobody in the house. So I looked outside, and she was pulling out of the driveway, right as I had opened the door to go outside. And...

THERAPIST: Because you were so late? I don’t understand why she’s leaving. Because the time had come to leave? And you weren’t there yet or... she was purposely leaving early to leave you behind?

KEVIN: Sometimes it feels like that. And... I think she was trying to prove a point, saying that “you need to get up earlier,” but... I haven’t been late, except this morning, though I wasn’t that late this morning, but we don’t give out “Tardy’s” anymore. So I mean, sometimes it feels like she’s trying to leave me so she can prove a point. [00:43:51]

But that day, I really didn’t feel good at all. I had... I just recently went over to one of my friends and, um, Lynn, you know, she said, “Your cough sounds a lot like you have bronchitis.” That idea has been thrown out there a few times. One of my teachers thought that I did and um...

THERAPIST: You sound pretty good.

KEVIN: Well, I walked in the locker room the other day, this was... (pause) I can’t remember when it was, but... I walked into the locker room and I started coughing. I mean, I was gasping for air, I mean this was the hardest I’ve coughed. I was gasping for air, I couldn’t manage to get any. It felt like I was choking, but I was able to let air out, but I just couldn’t breathe any in.

THERAPIST: Well, that is actually symptomatic of something that’s been going around here, so... That sounds about right. [00:44:56]

KEVIN: Yeah, and so I kept coughing and coughing. I gagged and I nearly threw up.

THERAPIST: And you were at school? When did this happen?

KEVIN: Yeah, I was at school. This was my third hour.

THERAPIST: Okay, but... when you got up in the morning... So you’re saying you knew you were this sick in the morning.

KEVIN: Yeah, but if I told my mom, she’d just say, “No, you’re going to school.”

THERAPIST: Do you have a history of not being credible on that?

KEVIN: Not really. I mean...

THERAPIST: Does he have a history of not being (chuckles) credible?

MOTHER: Um, I think there have been some times when he says he doesn’t feel well, but he just doesn’t want to go to school and...

KEVIN: Isn’t that every day?

MOTHER: Um, yeah.

KEVIN: No, like, I mean seriously. Isn’t that every single day, I mean, nobody wants to go to school.

MOTHER: (sighs) But this day, it was, to me, it was... we had made an appointment at the doctor, just so you, I mean, he was coughing badly. We made an appointment for the doctor. I go pick him up after school, and he goes, “You know what? I haven’t been coughing today.”

KEVIN: But that wasn’t (inaudible)/blocked. [00:45:54]

MOTHER: So we go to the doctor anyway and we all decided, “Okay, he’s not coughing, he’s past it.” So... because I thought it might have been bronchitis. So this, so that was a day or so... before that?

KEVIN: After. Because that’s when it came back.

MOTHER: Well, anyway, so that (sighs), that morning, just let me just finish that. So that morning, there was candy wrappers all over, he didn’t feel well, I’m pretty sure what he was feeling was because of eating too much candy. So yes, I have to leave the house at a certain time to get him to school and then to get me to work on time. He knows, because this has been two years of this, or this is the second year of that.

THERAPIST: What time is that? What time...

MOTHER: 7:25 is when we have to leave to get us all where we need to go. And so...

THERAPIST: You would agree with that? (Kevin affirms)

MOTHER: And so he woke... I wake them up at 6:30, and he doesn’t come down. So I, that particular morning (I don’t usually do this, but for some reason that morning I did), I went up four times, or knocked on his door four times, to get him up. (Kevin attempts to interject) So by the time he came, let me finish, okay? [00:47:00]

By the time he came down, it was already past the time for me to be gone. It was 7:30, so at that point, he went to wash his hair or, and it was my time to go, so... but he was dressed. I thought he was going, going to walk, because he often will walk to school. So I went to school, thinking he was walking, and he didn’t go to school that day.

KEVIN: And then I woke up... Well, I heard Dad getting up, so I got up, and I went over, and I told him. And... He said, “Do you want me to take you to school?” I said, “No, I really don’t feel good.”

THERAPIST: What time was this, about? 7:00...

KEVIN: No, he, he works (inaudible)/blocked. It was probably around 9:00, 9:30.

THERAPIST: Oh! Later than that. School had already started.

KEVIN: Yeah. And... I was laying downstairs or something, I can’t really remember, but...

FATHER: You were in the bathroom.

KEVIN: Yeah, I was going to the bathroom, and then he asked me why I wasn’t at school. I said because I don’t feel good at all. He goes, and um... He said, “Do you want me to take you to school?” I said, “No, I really don’t feel good.” Then he said, “All right,” and walked out the door. That’s pretty much how it went. [00:48:17]

THERAPIST: How much school does he miss?

MOTHER: Well, he doesn’t miss... was that your second? (Kevin affirms) That was the second time I thought he had gone to school and he didn’t.

KEVIN: That’s... what happened.

THERAPIST: This year? Yes. Okay.

MOTHER: (under breath) I have a terrible memory. But you know... So I come home from work and he had built a fire in the fire pit in the backyard...

KEVIN: No. That was... that was when you went to... Where’d you guys go? You went to Auburn to watch Rose and... you got...

FATHER: Which was on a Friday, and that was the day you took off.

MOTHER: There, a pillow from the living room was out there...

THERAPIST: Took off from school or there is more to the story, when you ran off.

MOTHER: Say that again, I’m sorry.

FATHER: That’s the day he, he...

THERAPIST: He took off from... didn’t go to school.

FATHER: Correct.

THERAPIST: (chuckles) Okay. I thought you were going to tell me that he took off, like in a...

KEVIN: No!

THERAPIST: But you then built a fire pit?

MOTHER: And...

KEVIN: That was later that night, around 9:00.

THERAPIST: Okay, but what are we all thinking... [00:49:18]

KEVIN: Mom, you weren’t even there! At least... (mother “shhh!”)

THERAPIST: Wait, Kevin, what are we all thinking? You didn’t go to school, and then you went outside and did a strenuous activity, building a fire. What are we thinking?

KEVIN: I had gotten home, they had gotten home. I didn’t go to school. I didn’t feel good that morning, and... From about... I can’t remember what time, but they got home, my mom got home at around... 3:40, something like that. She had thought that I went to school. I didn’t want to tell her, because I knew that she would blow up on me and... I know my dad... you knew that I wasn’t going to school, right? (father affirms) But, he didn’t do anything to stop, because I think that he believed that I didn’t feel good. And I didn’t at all! And... so they got home...

THERAPIST: And you were going to try to practice some like, Indian medicine out back and make yourself feel better by burning a fire pit? [00:50:26]

KEVIN: No, I... that was later that night. They went to Auburn. What am I... (mother attempts to interject) How was I... How am I being wrong right now? You guys went to Auburn to watch Rose.

MOTHER: We did, we did. But Kevin, when I got home, the fire pit was smoldering, you had the pillow from inside outside on the bench, right beside the fire pit, the leaves in the front yard had been all snow-blowed or whatever, leaf-blowed. I mean, you had done all this activity outside, and there, the fire...

THERAPIST: You (inaudible)/blocked leaves during the day? (chuckling) Well, at least you were productive! (laughs) But, I mean, that is, that’s pretty good, but we’re all thinking, “If you were that well, why didn’t you go to school?”

KEVIN: (pause) I keep saying that I don’t feel good, but nobody in this room believes me.

THERAPIST: No, I’m just asking. If you didn’t feel good, how did you do such great, productive things, like...?

KEVIN: It was more of a cough and dry throat and just feeling like crap that day.

THERAPIST: Okay, so what is it you should do if you’re that sick? I agree that at least you didn’t like... like light the house on fire. (chuckles) You did something productive, but what should you be doing? You’re smart enough to know how to handle being ill. [00:51:36]

KEVIN: I don’t just like doing nothing. I mean, you guys know that, right? I want to mow the lawn all the time, I want to be outside, I don’t just want to sit inside and do nothing, except when I’m doing homework. I have to. But, I mean, blowing leaves doesn’t take that much work. You stand up, and you move this thing back and forth, and then...

THERAPIST: Did you make a nice pile?

KEVIN: Yeah, I let the dogs out, and let the cats out, and then I came back in. Then five minutes later, I went out and I let the dogs in and...

THERAPIST: So you guys don’t know what to, when to believe that he’s sick or not; but on the flip side, he hasn’t done a bunch of school skipping, where he would like to do it more, but you don’t let him. Which of those is true?

MOTHER: Um, it hasn’t happened a lot. That is absolutely true.

KEVIN: And you guys know that I don’t want to go to school every single day. I never want to go to school, so... That night, you think that I ate candy, but you told me not to. I didn’t eat candy that night. I went to bed at a regular time... [00:52:48]

THERAPIST: Where did the wrappers come from?

KEVIN: She thinks that there were wrappers that night, but she’s getting all mixed up with the next night. So... I’m pretty sure everything is mixed up around here, isn’t it? Like, around that time everything is mixed up, right?

MOTHER: I... I... I feel like I have it straight in my head, but...

KEVIN: I didn’t eat. I probably had... though, some other things, like little tiny pieces of bubblegum? That’s probably what I had, and I think that’s the only thing that I had.

THERAPIST: Those do have wrappers, that’s correct. Those do have wrappers, but... All right, so what... So you don’t skip a lot of school.

KEVIN: No, I’ve...

THERAPIST: You wish you could skip a lot of school.

KEVIN: I wish I could skip, but...

THERAPIST: Why don’t you skip more school?

KEVIN: Because I know I have to get work done.

THERAPIST: Well, that was a good answer.

KEVIN: But...

THERAPIST: Did you make up your work from your off day? (Kevin affirms) Or did you just offer to blow the leaves for your teacher, so that they would let you out? (Kevin chuckles) [00:53:41]

KEVIN: No! I just don’t like doing nothing. I don’t like just sitting and doing nothing. I actually want to do something that I don’t have to do later on, you know? But... I kind of like doing yard work, and it doesn’t take much effort to blow leaves, you know?

THERAPIST: So okay. So really, there are two issues here. One of them is you being ready to go on time. That seems to be an issue, more than...

KEVIN: Well, that was just the one time I didn’t get up because I didn’t feel good and...

THERAPIST: So that’s not a regular event (Kevin denies), where you miss the car? (Kevin denies) She said it happened twice in...

KEVIN: I mean, it isn’t any more.

MOTHER: Honey, it happens a lot.

KEVIN: Okay.

MOTHER: And then you’ll use...

THERAPIST: But normally when he misses the ride, he does walk to school (mother affirms), which is what you should do, and I wouldn’t sweat that. Now, you shouldn’t (and I’m not saying you do; he said it), so you shouldn’t leave (chuckles) early to prove a point. But if the time to leave is 7:25... And we have this in my house. The way it works at my house is, if I’m the one who makes us late (which doesn’t really happen very often, sometimes when I have radio in the morning it does), when I’m... [00:54:51]

MOTHER: I’m sorry. What are you doing?

KEVIN: Russell’s calling me; it’s just distracting.

MOTHER: I apologize. I’m sorry.

THERAPIST: That’s fine. So, if I’m the one who makes us late, then I will call in and excuse people; but if anyone else makes us late, I don’t (chuckles) call in an excused tardy for them. Then they have whatever punishment they get at school. It’s that simple. So, and it doesn’t happen very often. It’s probably, if it ever happens, about 90% of the time, it’s something that’s happened to me that we have a late radio show or something, so I call that in. So it’s kind of up to people to get out the door when they’re supposed to. So, do you think it’s fair if she leaves every day at 7:25 and you either walk to school or get in the car?

KEVIN: Yeah, but I usually wake up, she gets me up 6:30, I stay in bed until 7:00, I get up, there is no problems.

THERAPIST: She puts the patch on you off the bat, right? [00:55:47]

KEVIN: No, no, I put it on. I put it on when I get downstairs. But... I get up, she tries to get me up at 6:30 and she... Every morning, she says, “Kevin, if you don’t get up, you’re going to be late.” But every morning, I get up at 7:00, and then we leave at 7:25 with no problems. Don’t you agree with that?

THERAPIST: Can she just put the patch on you at 6:30?

KEVIN: That would be kind of awkward.

THERAPIST: It would?

FATHER: Can I do it? (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Can he put it on? Why?

FATHER: I don’t know.

KEVIN: Well, a lady walking in my room at 6:30 in the morning, pulling down my pants...

THERAPIST: I agree if a lady did that, if a lady walked in your room and pulled your pants down, unless she’s a lady that’s cute and your age, that would really be awkward. But (chuckles), it isn’t a lady, it’s your mother! (all chuckle)

KEVIN: I just think it’s kind of awkward...

FATHER: Maybe she doesn’t want to do it.

KEVIN: I think it’s kind of awkward, just, she walks in my room while I’m sleeping...

THERAPIST: Well, she shouldn’t even pull any pants down. It should be above your waistline, because of the rubbing issue. [00:56:44]

KEVIN: Well, we put something over it. We put a piece of tape over it, like a...

THERAPIST: Yeah. You can put tape over it. I just when it, so it’s on you earlier in the day, because it makes sure your (ph) morning is going to be better. I’m not trying to violate your precious underwear space or something (chuckles). I just know this works better.

KEVIN: I just like putting it on myself. I don’t want her to come in and do that. I just like putting it on by myself.

FATHER: Well, what about, what about if she came in in the morning to wake you up and handed it to you?

THERAPIST: And you put it on, and then you laid there for half an hour.

KEVIN: I think, when I get to school... by the time school starts and I’m in Science (which is my best subject; I know I might not look like it, but it really is my best subject) and I’m 100% there.

THERAPIST: I know you’re headed somewhere with this. What are you saying?

KEVIN: Like, I... like to put it on at 7:00. Um... [00:57:40]

THERAPIST: I wish you would try it my way for a couple of weeks and see, because I would be much more inclined for her to not worry about little things (like whether you’re sick once or twice a semester and stay home from school) if you would do what I want (chuckles) you to do! Because I think that would help your mornings a lot and I think if you have two bad mornings a semester, you should do a victory lap. If he skips school twice a semester because he doesn’t feel good, or lazy or whatever, power to ya! But if you would get the patch on earlier, and most of your mornings went better, I think that would be an improvement.

MOTHER: Because our mornings don’t go well. I, they...

KEVIN: You don’t think that they are, but you’re...

MOTHER: I don’t like to be late, and so I get panicky.

FATHER: Well, but I wouldn’t...

THERAPIST: That you must not do! I really think if you leave at 7:25 and he walks to school, that’s on him!

KEVIN: And I have no problem walking to school, except if it’s freezing cold outside, like it was...

THERAPIST: And that, too bad for you! (chuckles) That’s your decision right there! [00:58:41]

KEVIN: I know, but I just, I don’t like walking to school, but I know that I have to.

THERAPIST: Right, but you can’t be resentful of her, if... Now, if she tricks you, and leaves at 7:20, and you can take a picture of her leaving at 7:20, and timestamp it on your phone, and bring it in here and prove it, I will turn to her and say, “Don’t do that! That was mean!” But if she leaves at 7:25 and you’re not on the “Mom Bus,” then I don’t care if it’s 20 below zero, you’re a good outdoorsman, you can make it. Don’t you agree? (Kevin affirms) There you go!

MOTHER: Now part of this is going to be alleviated, because I just quit my job.

THERAPIST: Well, no...

KEVIN: She quit my job...

THERAPIST: You still should leave at 7:25. He shouldn’t get, be like, “Oh, I’m delaying everybody until 7:30.”

FATHER: Well, she had to be at work by a certain time, that’s why she’d drop him off.

THERAPIST: Oh, so that was an early drop off.

FATHER: Don’t get to sleep in then.

THERAPIST: Oh, oh, oh, I understand the difference now.

MOTHER: Right, right, right.

KEVIN: She quit her job because of that one time where I didn’t feel good. (mother and father deny) Okay, then why, that’s exactly what you told me...

THERAPIST: I love it when you (inaudible)/blocked sympathy (ph) pretty fast. Give me the super-fast version. What... [00:59:44]

FATHER: That’s not what Mom... It may have played into it, but I think our household is better with mom not working. I think the dynamics are better.

THERAPIST: So nobody’s blaming you for that. (father affirms)

MOTHER: Me working is just kind of a lux/stops/, you know, it’s just like, “Oh I’m not doing anything, I might as well work.” So I don’t need to. But I think my energy needs to be spent at home.

THERAPIST: Okay, so I agree with all that, as long as it’s not truly spent at home being anxious.

FATHER: No!

MOTHER: I like to be at home! (ph)

KEVIN: Mom, I really don’t like this because there were two things that really pointed to me today. One, you literally nearly pointed to me when you were talking to Mr. Smith. His two daughters are in my mom’s class, so...

THERAPIST: He (inaudible) same way.

KEVIN: He saw that there was a new spot open for a parent, so he asked me if my mom was quitting her job.

THERAPIST: (chuckles) What are you, her agent or something? [01:00:45]

KEVIN: I have, I didn’t even know about this until today. So she... was talking to Mr. Smith in the parking lot today. He asked why she’s quitting her job, and then she got real quiet. She started whispering to him, and I could see her doing this (pause), and then on the way in here, she told me that specifically because I skipped school that one day. That’s what you told me and (father attempts to interject) don’t, please don’t deny that, because that is what you said.

MOTHER: No, I... not because that one day, but because I went to work and I didn’t know you weren’t at school, and that’s the second time that’s happened.

KEVIN: But Dad did, and he didn’t do anything to stop that.

MOTHER: That... I think... I think we hit rock bottom. I think with you... and you’re not at F’s now, but with you being all F’s in your, in this semester, and then me not knowing that you weren’t at school... You were truant and, with me not knowing that, I don’t need to be working. I need to be at home, and make sure this is happening. [01:01:47]

KEVIN: I don’t get why you would choose to quit, when we’re going so good right now.

MOTHER: Well, we are, but...

KEVIN: Why wouldn’t you have chosen to quit when it was in a bad time? We’re in a really, a good time right now.

FATHER: I asked Mom... if she would quit a while ago, because I did not feel the dynamic of the home was as good. I...

KEVIN: You’re always sleeping in the morning, so you don’t know how the mornings are going.

FATHER: I hear everything that goes on.

THERAPIST: Well, I think he’s speaking on a broader issue than just the mornings, but I understand why you’re... I understand what you feel here, Kevin, because you feel like this is... Here is what I think you’re saying (but you said it very well), but here are what I think you mean. I think you mean that you’re going to get blamed for this at some point.

KEVIN: No. I don’t think that I will be, but I feel bad because... I’m also frustrated with her, because I know that we need the money. I know it doesn’t pay much, but some, I mean... [00:02:46]

THERAPIST: If you’re her agent, you could up the guy if he comes to you and he says, “Can I get your mom to work here?” You say, “That’s going to be about an $18 an hour job.” (mother chuckles) And you get 10%! (chuckles)

KEVIN: She shouldn’t have quit right now and that’s not your decision to tell her that she needs to quit or ask her, that she needs to.

THERAPIST: They are partners, and they...

KEVIN: I know.

THERAPIST: ...they do get to discuss that. But I still think it’s interesting that you’re concerned about this. So you’re saying you don’t feel guilty about it? Because you sound like you do.

KEVIN: I do feel guilty about it...

THERAPIST: Okay, I didn’t say it right when I said you’ll feel blame. It’s that you’re saying you feel somewhat responsible for this and you wish she would have held out, so that, that you could show her you’re making progress, and her not have to quit.

KEVIN: Well, yeah, but there is another part, is where... I think why, one of the reasons is, why she didn’t, why she quit her job, was because she doesn’t trust me enough to... I mean, she’s... [01:03:53]

THERAPIST: You have to say what you’re saying, go ahead.

KEVIN: She’s not open enough to really realize what’s happening. Like, I didn’t feel good at all that one day, and... she says... I can’t remember what she said, but she said, pretty much what she meant is, “You’re going to school and... I mean, you have to go to school today.” (pause) She’s not open enough to really realize how I’m feeling. She thinks that her opinion on how I’m feeling is right. She doesn’t listen to my, she doesn’t listen to why I’m not feeling good. I’ll tell her, and she says... she’ll sometimes come back...

THERAPIST: And you don’t think that you (and I’m really asking, it sounds like I’m leading you, and I’m not), you really don’t... you feel like you have not done anything to get her to think you’re not credible about things like this? [01:04:52]

KEVIN: I don’t see why she wouldn’t believe me, because I’ve never... purposely skipped school. I might not feel good at all in the mornings, and then feel better in the afternoons.

THERAPIST: And what’s your response to that, Maggie?

MOTHER: Um, I feel like it’s happened enough, and I can’t give you a number on...

KEVIN: Three times.

MOTHER: ...my hands or whatever, but I just sort of sometimes feel that if you don’t feel completely perfect, you can’t go to school. I think you know, if you feel sort of sick, you can kind of buck it up and go, unless you’ve thrown up or you have a fever.

THERAPIST: True, but if he have a pattern of that, I think you’re right. I would be the very first person to tell you, “It doesn’t matter, Kevin, if you’re uncomfortable. We all are; get up and do it.” But if he’s not usually doing that, then he feels like you’re sort of saying he is a malingerer, is the term you’re looking for there, that he’s like faking sick to get out of school a lot. [01:05:47]

He’s saying, “I don’t like going to school; (chuckles) you’re right! Every day I don’t want to go. But I’m going.” I mean, I’m pretty much paraphrasing what you said right there. So I think, I think (we’re going to have to quit), but this is actually an interesting point, because if you two are going to be spending more time together...

FATHER: ...it really won’t change.

THERAPIST: It really won’t (chuckles), yeah, it really won’t change.

FATHER: If she’s home by then...

MOTHER: Well then, I won’t be stressed about being late to work, though.

THERAPIST: Well, that will help, right? (ph)

MOTHER: That whole h***, because I don’t like to be late. (Kevin attempts to interject) So that part will just...

THERAPIST: Well I know what Kevin is about to say, right? Go ahead, Kevin. I know what you’re going to say.

KEVIN: Then don’t be stressed, just leave when you need to leave and if I’m not ready, then just... I’ll walk.

THERAPIST: That is correct.

KEVIN: That’s how easy it is. You don’t have to worry about me. All you have to do... [01:06:30]

MOTHER: Well, but you weren’t... My point is, I didn’t know where you were. I thought you were at school. So I am a mother that doesn’t really need to work, but I’m working, and because I’m working, I didn’t know you weren’t at school. So work interfered with me being a mom, is what happened and I don’t have to... I don’t have to work. But I want to be a mom, and being a mom means I know where you are; and I didn’t.

THERAPIST: So here is my answer, and then we have to quit. Kevin is right, in the sense that if this situation is only going to get you two into it more in the morning, in a bad way, then he is right. That isn’t going to be helpful.

She is right, if this is going to help make sure that you’re doing better in school, without the two of you just getting into it all the time. I don’t think any of us know which of the outcomes that’s going to be. Is everybody following what I’m saying here? (all respond) [01:07:30]

If every morning you two are just fighting, and now there are no deadline and no responsibility on him to go when he’s supposed to go, and it just turns into a power struggle? He is right. He should have just gotten to walk to school. And we’d have dealt with the no-shows at school or whatever. You get truant, you get detention, too bad for you. That’s the problems. He has to just deal with some of those consequences.

MOTHER: But I checked into that, because... (pause) I kind of wanted him to get in trouble, but they said it was going to be me that got in trouble.

THERAPIST: Who told you that?

MOTHER: The school.

THERAPIST: What are they going to do to you?

MOTHER: They said the police got involved, and the police would come to my house and say, “Why didn’t you know where your son was?”

THERAPIST: They’re just making that up. Those people made, they made that up!

MOTHER: They’re our... they’re our friends! (chuckles)

THERAPIST: There are state laws. I actually had that little talk with Tonganoxie about this one time, because they had some similar policies. The problem is truancy is a specific term of law. There has to be certain things present for truancy to occur. The school can define absences any way they want, and can punish the kids as they see fit. But for it to become truant, if you look it up and there is a specific set of guidelines that are required for it to be a legal action. This would be way short of that, so better that he gets a bunch of consequences. I don’t... yeah. [01:08:55]

MOTHER: Well, I... and I did... Oh, water there (ph)...

THERAPIST: That, don’t worry. It happened. But he needs to face those consequences, and one of those consequences cannot be you yelling at him. That does not have any effect. That harms your two’s relationship, and it makes him not... There is no consequence to that. It’s just he’s angry and you’re angry, and actually kind of feels bad about it, but that’s not driving him to do better. If he has to go to school, and serve detentions because he didn’t go to school, and you won’t excuse him, power to ya! That’s what I would do.

MOTHER: That’s what I wanted to happen.

THERAPIST: Sure. And I tell my kids, “If you don’t go to school and you get truant, or whatever...” (chuckles) My kids actually got a truancy letter one time, because I took them to Disney World; and that was fine. And then they had strep! And there is a sign on the door that says, “Don’t bring your people here if they’re sickly!” So I took them out and that exceeded the number of days! And they sent me a letter! [01:09:53]

I wrote them back and I said, “This is, these are excused absences for medical reasons.” They were saying, “(inaudible) for now on, you’ll have to bring a doctor’s note.” I said, “They were out for three days!” Well, that combined with the others. I said, “We need to go through the statute.” I sent them the statute and I said, “This is what truancy is.” They finally wrote me back and said, “We’re going to have to change our policy.”

So it’s a very specific set of circumstances. But, I said, “You can put my kids in detention if they have unexcused absences; have at it!” But they don’t. They can put you in detention; you can spend more time at school! Wouldn’t you like that? You could go to school and do like, I don’t know, Saturday school or whatever they do after school, you could stay there longer and then... [01:10:33]

KEVIN: If I’ve learned the lesson then... I mean, so like, if she leaves, she doesn’t have to worry about me going to school or not in the mornings. I have to worry about myself. I don’t think I said that right at all, but...

THERAPIST: I know what you mean.

KEVIN: Yeah, so... just have her not be stressed out at all...don’t worry about...

THERAPIST: Well, that may be easier said than done. You have some work to do to help her with that. Go ahead.

KEVIN: Like, don’t be stressed out. If she was still going to work, she doesn’t have to be stressed out. All she has to, I could even wake myself up.

THERAPIST: That would be beautiful, man. (Kevin affirms) I’d let you pick any dessert that you would pick, and I would get it for you on the last day of school. We would share it together, if you actually follow through on that. Any dessert at all, from anywhere in the world! We would have a dessert fest, right here. [01:11:26]

KEVIN: But like, I don’t think that she should be so stressed out in the mornings. I think that if she does leave me at home, you know, I’ve, I need to learn my lesson. If I do things right, I get my way, and I get to go to school, I’ll get to ride to school. I like to get to school earlier so I can talk to my friends. But if I don’t get up, if I get up too late, I have to walk to school, there is a consequence, and then I might be late to school, and there is another consequence, so... I’m not learning anything...

FATHER: So we’re putting it on you.

KEVIN: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I’m totally down with that.

FATHER: ‘kay.

MOTHER: You have, you end up walking a lot, I mean that’s what we do. You end up walking a lot, because you’re not ready. So, that’s already in place.

THERAPIST: If he doesn’t go to school, if he skips out, regardless of whether you’re going to excuse him or not, and you have a choice (you can think about it; you can think probably quite a bit; you don’t have to call in that day), then he would have to let you know that he did not go to school and why. He can send you a message about that. Then you decide if you want to excuse him or not. If it’s not legit (and I think we have to define what legit is, because we’re out of time, we’d better do that in the future), but then you can decide to excuse him or not. You can petition for why it’s legitimate. Maybe you’d better walk to the doctor if you’re that sick. (pause) The doctor isn’t that far away.

FATHER: Closer in school.

THERAPIST: There you go. All right. So this is an unfinished discussion, but we have to stop. What, let’s see what we need to put (inaudible) down here. Kevin you really did a very fine job of presenting yourself today.

KEVIN: Thank you.

THERAPIST: I am impressed with how you speak. When you’re in the “wise people’s chair,” you do really good. You need to try and do that in other places, too. (pause) What time? Okay, so, if we, can we do a 4:00 or is that too early for you guys?

FATHER: Depends when... you’ll be...

MOTHER: Well... I can do 4:00 now, if I’m...

THERAPIST: Want to do the 21st?

MOTHER: Now we already have some set up, actually.

THERAPIST: Oh, we have some? Never mind.

MOTHER: I think we have, we’re, I think we’re all...

THERAPIST: We do! We have 4:30 on Wednesday on the 20th. We’re good.

MOTHER: I think we’re all through the end of December.

THERAPIST: Okay! We are good! All right, guys!

MOTHER: Thank you!

THERAPIST: See you then! (pause) Remember to take the “wise person’s chair” with you, Kevin.

KEVIN: Okay.

THERAPIST: Not literally, but figuratively. (chuckles) Because I think it won’t fit. Take care!

MOTHER: Thank you!

(This therapy session ends at 01:13:55)

END TRANSCRIPT