Transcript of Audio File:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: (opens door) Hey guys! Come on back! Poor Ruth (the cat) is having a hairball issue or something (chuckles) today. Let me see... I will be back directly. (door closes)

FATHER: That�s a big computer!

(sound of chimes)

KEVIN: (chuckles) It�s just like...

FATHER: Kind of pretty!

MOTHER: Do you have my phone? [00:01:31]

KEVIN: No, you have it.

MOTHER: Can you turn your phone off, Wes?

FATHER: Yeah, why?

MOTHER: Well, I think last time, it rang a couple of times, you know...

FATHER: Maybe it was important.

MOTHER: I�m thinking the world can survive without you for an hour.

KEVIN: (non-verbal �I don�t know�), time to turn your phone down (ph).

FATHER: I did, Kevin.

KEVIN: No you didn�t.

(door opens) [00:02:38]

THERAPIST: Oh, ho, ho, ho!

MOTHER: Do you swim across the street? Well, not...

THERAPIST: I even swim farther than across the street! (Kevin �bad joke� groan), (chuckles) but yes, I...

MOTHER: That could be taken that way.

THERAPIST: I swim and so... (crumpling paper) I feel like I swam up and down all of the street today, a pretty hard swim. Okay, are you going to do your trick today, Ruth? Because you need a hairball (inaudible). Oh, good girl!

MOTHER: Awww!

THERAPIST: Now, here you go! You need some hairball medicine. (crumpling paper)

MOTHER: We used to have a longhaired cat and they are so pretty, but I�ve kind of forgotten about the hairball thing.

THERAPIST: Well, and we have a really good comb for that, but Evan, I don�t think he used it this week and she, we�re... When spring comes, I think I�m going to just shave her again. The vet told me she does that to her cat always.

MOTHER: Huh!

THERAPIST: And cats like it. We had to shave her last year, because she had such matted fur, and I kind of hate to, because everybody loves to pet her. (mother affirms) But that�s a lot of fur to be releasing in the spring and... [00:03:44]

MOTHER: It really is!

THERAPIST: ...I think the floor or Ruth�s stomach is going to probably like it pretty much. Okay! Well, I hear that you have had a rather, um (Kevin affirms), exciting week, shall we say.

MOTHER: Now he gets to be home with me!

THERAPIST: Yes, this does not seem to be strategically a wise choice on your part!

KEVIN: About the... school, or about school?

THERAPIST: Yeah (Kevin responds), and you end up at home with your mother (Kevin responds), where the two of you can have conflict.

KEVIN: It hasn�t been that bad at all. It really hasn�t.

THERAPIST: So you�d like to just go ahead and have her homeschool you for the rest of high school?

KEVIN: Um, probably not that, but... (mother laughs) It really isn�t that bad.

FATHER: A lot of people do that.

THERAPIST: I don�t know, either. I think that parents can be teachers and teachers can be parents, but the twain shall not usually meet. My wife is an excellent teacher and the last person on the face of the earth she wants to have to teach is our kids. That�s why they go. (Kevin chuckles) I just need to check something... [00:04:50]

KEVIN: We went the other day. For the...

MOTHER: Yes, you did.

KEVIN: ...football game.

MOTHER: He did do a lot of studying at home today. I don�t know if it was a full day�s worth of school, but...

THERAPIST: So I am interested in your account of what happened.

KEVIN: At school with George (sp)?

THERAPIST: Yeah, I have to go back and read your mom�s version here in a second, but I would like to hear yours before I do that. (pause) I can breathe; well, I�m still not quite over my swim. You guys probably think it�s like cold in here, though? [00:05:39]

MOTHER: Well...

FATHER: It usually is a little chilly in here (therapist chuckles), but you just worked out, so...

THERAPIST: You always come in right after that, and I have the fan and I think, �Oh, it must be like 80 degrees in here.� I�m beginning to realize that�s the problem, so... If it gets too, the wind gets to be too much there on the fan, we�ll fix it. Okay, so Kevin... �It was a dark and stormy night...� What happened?

KEVIN: (chuckles) Oh, is he asking me? (mother affirms) Oh, okay. Um, about school, like...? Okay, um, this kid, he�s been giving me a hard time since the very first day of school, but it�s been getting pretty hairy. So, he�s broken around 300, well, probably just about $300 worth of my stuff, don�t you think?

FATHER: The only thing I know, that I�ve actually seen a value on, was the inhaler, but...

KEVIN: The inhaler and the two pairs of shoes...

FATHER: Which I didn�t know about.

THERAPIST: He broke your inhaler??

KEVIN: Yeah, he sat on it. [00:06:36]

THERAPIST: I�m going to find your e-mail...

KEVIN: I�m not saying, that�s not a fat joke. He really did sit on it. (therapy affirms) (pause) So, he broke my inhaler, he threw it away, so that was about $50... (mother affirms) $50. Broke three of my deodorant sticks, so...

THERAPIST: What was the... Okay, this was over the course of the year? Or just all here, the other day?

KEVIN: All here, recently. It�s within, the inhaler was a few weeks ago, but he was suspended for... Well, he came back after suspension for like, five days and then he came back one day, and then was suspended again. One, he brought moonshine to school and I can�t remember (therapist stifles laugh)... yeah. (chuckles)

FATHER: Don�t hear that every day, do you?

THERAPIST: You�d think I did, but no. That is actually...

KEVIN: Yeah! It�s Baldwin, so... (mother chuckles)

THERAPIST: Oh, this is the one e-mail, okay. Go ahead. [00:07:36]

KEVIN: So, he brought moonshine to school and then... I can�t remember what the...

FATHER: Shoes.

KEVIN: ... second thing was. No, no. I�m talking about (inaudible)/blocked.

MOTHER: Has (inaudible). (therapist responds)

KEVIN: But then he was suspended again, for I don�t know why, the next day, when he got back, the day after he got suspended. Then, when he came back, he broke my inhaler, and then about two weeks later... wait... he broke my inhaler before he got suspended the first time, so I wasn�t able to like, confront him, ask him why he broke my inhaler and say that, �Hey I need this money back, so I can get a new one.� So when he got back, he... smashed one of my deodorant sticks on the floor, the locker room floor. Then the next... next, the week after, he smashed two more (which was just this week), smashed two more, filled both of my gym shoes with water, and flushed them. [00:08:39]

So I went up to him. I asked him why he did this, and I told him not to mess with my stuff anymore. To get the point across, I kind of gave him a little shove, make sure that he was listening to me. He turns around, puts me in a headlock, and punches me on the side of the head. I kick him while I�m in the headlock, and I come out and I punch him, right in the face. His nose and his lip were bleeding. That�s why I�m suspended for five days.

THERAPIST: (pause) Do you guys concur with that story?

MOTHER: We know, he did tell us a couple of weeks ago about the inhaler, and Wes even talked to the mother and she is, was...

FATHER: Going to reimburse.

MOTHER: ...was going to reimburse. So that�s docu/stops/, and he, you told the principal about that, back when it happened, I think.

KEVIN: Yeah, and he didn�t do anything.

MOTHER: Well, but I�m just... So there has been... Now, these other things, we haven�t seen the shoes, we, I don�t know anything about the deodorant. I mean... and I don�t mean anything against you, but that has not been visually confirmed by us. [00:09:45]

KEVIN: Yeah, it was... three of my friends said that they saw him do it. He took the deodorant, poured it out, threw it up on the ceiling, and when it came down, he started stomping on it and he squished it and it�s all over the floor. Then while I was walking down the hallway, when someone (sp) came to get me from the office, from Math (the office aide), he said, �By the way, George also put water in both of your shoes and then flushed them.� So I asked Kevin, when I got to Math... no...

THERAPIST: But did you document any of this with anybody else?

KEVIN: No, that was when I was, this was the same day that it happened, so...

MOTHER: So the shoes happened yesterday. (Kevin confirms) And this is when the fight happened, was yesterday.

KEVIN: Yeah. It happened... somebody told me in the hallway, while I was walking to Science, which is my first hour, I got into Science and then... I went over to George after Science, and I asked him why he did this, and that�s when that happened. [00:10:52]

FATHER: You had told? (Kevin denies) I thought you had told them about the deodorant and stuff in the gym.

KEVIN: Yeah, I told him...

FATHER: So that was documented, and so was the inhaler with the principal.

KEVIN: Yeah, but...

THERAPIST: So two things were documented.

KEVIN: Yeah, but that was way before the other two deodorant sticks and the...

THERAPIST: Well I�m going to, just making sure that as the lead up to this occurs, you tried other �paths of righteousness,� and then... So, um, where did this occur?

KEVIN: In the hallway. My intentions weren�t to go up and punch him in the face, but my intentions were to just to try to get him to stop. Then, with this comment, I realized that he�s going just keep doing it, so I gave him a shove to try to get my point across. He didn�t...

THERAPIST: But might one question whether that was the time or the place for this?

KEVIN: Well, that was the only time that I was going to see him through the day, so that was the only place I can see him through the day. [00:11:52]

THERAPIST: Mature people retire these things to after school, off the grounds of the school.

KEVIN: Well, but he rides the bus home, he rides the very first bus so he has to get there right after the bell rings.

THERAPIST: Well, what happened to him in this story?

FATHER: He got an in-school suspension.

KEVIN: Yeah, but he�s in, he�s still in school now, so... He�s...

THERAPIST: We, it does not appear you came out the winner in this situation.

KEVIN: Well, physically, definitely. I mean, he ran down the hallway, crying, so... But...

THERAPIST: And you�re quite certain that he posed sufficient threat to you, to respond that way? I�m really asking, I�m not tricking you.

KEVIN: Like, to put me in a headlock? Like when he put me in the headlock, was I scared?

THERAPIST: Well, that�s a good way to respond, but maybe, when, so exactly what happened? I mean, he then, in the middle of this, put you in a headlock, he responded in a fighting manner to you? (Kevin affirms) Did other people see that?

KEVIN: No, it just popped up out of nowhere. So everybody...

FATHER: Did other people witness it? [00:12:54]

KEVIN: Well, I�m sure they did, but halfway through it. Nobody saw the very beginning of the fight, but... He put me in a headlock after I shoved him, and I was trying to make sure that he was listening, trying to get my point across. He put me in a headlock, punched me, I came out of the headlock, slipped out of the headlock, and then punched him in the face. Truthfully, I think that was self-defense. I don�t think that was...

THERAPIST: You did start it.

KEVIN: Well, I mean, can�t he man up and just realize that he needs to stop messing with my stuff?

THERAPIST: Well, I actually see your point. It just seems like that was a strange time and place to start it.

KEVIN: But there was no other, I wasn�t trying to start a fight. I was trying to get him, to get my point across. There was no other place that I could do it.

FATHER: What I�ve tried to do is explain to him that, there is a way that you can get your point across without fighting, or a way... (pause) I�m trying to think of the way I want to word this, but... (pause) I could understand why Kevin did what he did, and if he didn�t have anger issues, I probably wouldn�t have... worried about it too much. I would have hoped that he would pick a different direction, but I can understand what led up to that direction. [00:14:13]

THERAPIST: That�s what I�m trying to figure out is, whether it was impulsive (and it does seem to be), or whether it was more the thing you�re saying, where you�re trying to prevent yourself from being bullied. That�s the part that is kind of an interesting question here.

KEVIN: I wasn�t... I guess it was trying kind of not be bullied anymore. He�s been picking on me for a long time. I mean, it doesn�t affect me at all. I mean, but it�s just annoying, you know? Um...

THERAPIST: If it doesn�t affect you, you certainly picked a rather large response.

KEVIN: Well, once he started doing the stuff, it, well, it affected me by annoying me, you know? I�m, that doesn�t really make any sense, but... How it affected me, it just...

THERAPIST: No, I understand what you�re saying, but...

KEVIN: ... it just... yeah. But I had tried to get help, nobody else was helping. It wasn�t, nothing else was going to work, so I went up to him and tried to confront him, tell him to stop. I didn�t want to start a fight. Why would I want to start a fight in the hallway, with teachers all around? [00:15:16]

MOTHER: (pause) He actually even told, like I said, he told me about it a while ago, about the inhaler. At the time, he said that the lock on his locker in PE doesn�t work and so, because I was going, �How did he get your inhaler?� �Well, my lock doesn�t work.� At that time, I told him we need to get him a lock and then I never remembered to do that. So there, there, he came to me for help, as well and I kind of dropped the ball.

THERAPIST: Well, I�m looking at the referral here and it says, �Kevin came up to this student boy (ph) to tell him to stop messing with his personal belongings, alluding to a previous situation. Student replied in the negative,� which I am not sure what that means, but I presume it means he refused to...

MOTHER: What did he say?

THERAPIST: What does it mean, he replied in the negative?

KEVIN: He turned around and he said, �Okay.� It wasn�t like, �Okay, I�ll stop.� It was just like, �Okay,� like I�m just going to keep doing it. So...

THERAPIST: Because I take this, that he did not, if he replies in the negative, it means he did not agree to stop.

FATHER: I think it was, he agreed, but in a sarcastic form.

KEVIN: Yeah. He was just going to keep doing it. [00:16:29]

THERAPIST: Okay, because (chuckles) it kind of matters. Like at that point, what happened and they don�t say it very well. So then, �unsatisfied, you kicked him and then he pushed you away, and you pushed back, and then he put you in the headlock.� Does that sound all right?

KEVIN: It... not really. I didn�t kick him first. He was not open to what I was saying at all. He was open to the concept of it, about, past the... um...

THERAPIST: Well, you�re more vague than what they (chuckles) are in here!

KEVIN: Well, but... It happened to me, so...

THERAPIST: Yeah, but what did he say, exactly?

KEVIN: He said... um... I can�t remember really what he said. I remember he said that I attempted to kick him first. I did shove him, to make sure that he was listening, but it wasn�t, it was a little push, I mean, it wasn�t necessarily a shove. Um... [00:17:35]

THERAPIST: Okay, so then jumping to a different thing, or I, let me look here and see if I understand this. So (sighs) when is this wall kicking or hitting (it looks like kicking to me) incident? That�s after this? Or right after it?

FATHER: That was before.

MOTHER: No, that was...

KEVIN: That was the day before that.

MOTHER: That was... Sunday. Yeah, that was the day before.

THERAPIST: What�s going that going on with that, Kevin?

KEVIN: I really have no clue! I really don�t remember what it was about. What was that?

MOTHER: That one was, (father interjects inaudible) Kevin and I got into a fight, and I�m not proud of that at all, but it was a day full of... (pause) Kevin is wonderful here, but there is this other side. He does not follow rules, he is able to get by with doing things he�s not supposed to be doing, and I had had a full of that. I was very irritated by the end of the day. So that�s when I walk into the living room and he has this chocolate. [00:18:34]

KEVIN: Little tiny bowl like, like this, probably halfway filled with chocolate.

THERAPIST: Like little chocolate bars, pieces?

KEVIN: No, no, just little...

MOTHER: Just little, like chocolate chips. It�s kind of a stupid thing, but... My point was, this was just one more rule that was broken. These guys eat a bunch of snacks and then, any time they want, they just rampage through the kitchen, then they�re not ready for dinner. So I had set the rule that, no more snacks unless you come through me.

So it was just a full day of all this kind of stuff, and then that was the final straw. He has this chocolate, he didn�t ask me if he could have it. So I, �Kevin, you�re not supposed to have chocolate, you need to give it to me.� So he wouldn�t give it to me. You know, it�s laying here and he did this with his legs, and I�m trying to get it, because... I didn�t handle it very well. So I�m trying to get the chocolate. He won�t give it to me. [00:19:22]

THERAPIST: You�re grabbing the bowl of chocolate?

MOTHER: I was trying to grab the bowl of chocolate, because...

KEVIN: And while she�s doing this, she�s holding onto the bag of chocolate, and she�s stomping on my foot, while she�s doing this. That did happen.

MOTHER: That, that came... later. I did tramp on him.

THERAPIST: This went on for a while?

MOTHER: Well, when I couldn�t get the chocolate, I said, �Well then, I�ll just take your phone.� So I grabbed his phone, and then he grabbed my hand around his phone, and squeezed very, very hard and...

KEVIN: I wasn�t squeezing that hard.

MOTHER: ...I was trapped there.

THERAPIST: So, I think you need to go in the waiting room. See you later, bye. (Kevin affirms) If you want Ruth to go with you, and you two can play with her...

KEVIN: I�d just like to say my story first, so...

THERAPIST: No, no. I�ll get your story.

MOTHER: Well, I was wrong here, Kevin, and so... I was not good there. (door closes) [00:20:11]

THERAPIST: Okay, so... He�s going to end up institutionalized if we don�t do something in a hurry. The first thing you have to do... I don�t know, maybe he has a bi-polar disorder (I told you that a few weeks ago), but you have to do what�s called a low expressed emotion environment. This is critical, or he�s going to end up in the hospital (chuckles), because these kinds are the things that escalate out of control. Now, nobody has any right to kick anybody�s wall in...

FATHER: But he feels like he does.

THERAPIST: Well, but (sighs)...

FATHER: He, he blames it strictly on her. Why did, why did you do that?

THERAPIST: That�s why we�re having this conversation privately. At no time, ever, does it make any sense to put your hands on him or anywhere near him, because that�s, there are nothing important enough (except if he has a knife or a weapon, in which case you really don�t want to put your hands on him; you just want to call 911) to put yourself in a physically confrontational situation. [00:21:21]

MOTHER: I agree.

THERAPIST: The chocolate can�t... If you don�t want him to eat chocolate snacks, that�s A-Okay by me (because especially with the medicine, he�s going to ruin his appetite and stuff), but (sighs) these kind of things aren�t important enough to get into that, this kind of a dangerous altercation.

MOTHER: Please understand, I do know that. And that�s when he�s going, �It�s just over chocolate!� It was not. It was, he breaks every... Let�s get... This is what we want to talk with you about, without him in here. It�s like he breaks every rule there is.

FATHER: �Don�t take the charger upstairs.� The phone charger.

MOTHER: Every rule. There is that violent side of him, so he gets away with a lot because, quite honestly, I don�t know how he�s going to retaliate. He gets away with a lot. And this was just that one time that day, and like, after...

THERAPIST: The premise of it�s like, I need to know like, what happened leading up to it. I�m trying to understand, when you say he breaks a lot of rules. The only rules that are really important in the world are rules that protect kids from harm. Those are the most important rules. Now there is different kinds of harm. There is harm, like failing out of school. (mother affirms) That�s harmful. [00:22:36]

But some things, like if he eats chocolate and doesn�t eat a good dinner... that�s just dumb. He shouldn�t do it, and you should say, �Well, that wasn�t very smart.� I sit there and tell my son, �Well, you�re going to get to take shots someday, just like me, because you�ll have diabetes.� And leave it at that...

MOTHER: Well...

THERAPIST: ...because I don�t like him eating junk food, either.

MOTHER: Again, it�s not the choc/stops/, I mean, it�s not, we eat chocolate, we eat crap all day long. It�s truly, that was just the symbol of what had happened all day. And it�s things like...

THERAPIST: And so walk me through that. And that was before the suspension, right? (mother affirms) Okay, so walk me through what led up to this.

MOTHER: So things such as...

FATHER: The doors were left open in the kitchen all week.

MOTHER: And it all sounds so stupid individually, but it is usually like, you don�t think... They walk into a room, they open a cabinet, and they walk out, and the cabinet is open because...

THERAPIST: Who is �they�?

MOTHER: Oh, I�m sorry. My daughter, as well.

THERAPIST: So both of them do that.

MOTHER: Yeah. So, those frustrations are all day and then there is, we have this riding mower that doesn�t work, as a mower. So he�s kind of taken it over as this little four-wheeling kind of thing that he gets to play with. Well, he...

THERAPIST: So it runs, but it (mother affirms) doesn�t mow, okay. [00:23:43]

MOTHER: Yes, yes. So this had happened, this is one of those things that happened earlier in the day. He asked if he could paint the wheels, and I said no. �Well, it�s mine!� �No, it�s actually not yours. It�s the family�s and I don�t want you painting the wheels.�

So, I come back in the house, I go outside, he painted the wheels! With the paint that I had already told him months ago, never use this, because I bought it for purpose, for this craft. So he painted the wheels and he used the paint he�s not supposed to.

So then, he goes, �Well, can I have the keys?� �No you can�t have the keys, because you were supposed to go work� (that�s what, he was supposed to work with you that day, but he was too tired, so he didn�t go to work). So I was disappointed with him from the get-go, for letting Wes down. So that�s kind of what started my attitude, was early in the morning.

So any way, he said he wanted to drive that thing. I said, �If you�re too tired to work, you�re too tired to play, so you can�t have the keys.� So I go back in the house and I hid the keys. So I go back in the house and an hour later, the thing started up! And I go outside, I said, �What are you doing?� [00:24:43]

It�s those kind of things. And he�s like, �Well, I�m just going to go do the leaves.� �Where did you get the keys?� He goes, �I found them.� So I hide things and he finds them. I have passwords on my phone and he finds them (chuckles)...

FATHER: He read... he read that e-mail.

MOTHER: He found that somewhere on my computer, and I hid it. (pause) So, any way, it was that kind of a day that led up to one more thing happening. He got away with all of that, (whispers) because I don�t know how to handle it. And I�m kind of afraid (regular voice) of what he�ll do; it�s just only Jessica and I at home. So he got away with all that. Wes was home at this moment. I felt like, �I don�t want him to win this battle.� And so I resort/stops/ I did absolutely the wrong thing. I know that. Just at that moment, I wasn�t thinking. So that�s what happened that day. Oh, and then also after that, he went upstairs... and kicked his wall in. [00:25:46]

THERAPIST: That wall, so this is upstairs? So that was...

MOTHER: Yeah, that is in his bedroom.

THERAPIST: ...in a different room than where the thing was.

FATHER: That�s his bedroom.

THERAPIST: So you finally got the chocolate away from him, or...?

MOTHER: Well, what happened? Oh, and then...

FATHER: Jessica went screaming upstairs. I came down.

THERAPIST: What�s going on with her?

FATHER: She was just scared.

MOTHER: She was just screaming and crying because...

THERAPIST: From the chocolate altercation.

MOTHER: We were wrestling. I mean, we... It wasn�t, it is kind of, but I was grabbing the phone and he had my hand, and it was this. (pause) I�m not proud of that at all. So anyway, he came down and it disintegrated at that point.

FATHER: I broke it up. I was the mediator.

THERAPIST: Oh! You were at home? (father affirms) Oh, I thought you were gone.

FATHER: I was gone throughout the day.

MOTHER: Well, he had gotten home...

THERAPIST: You just came in...

FATHER: I was home for maybe 15 minutes and that... that�s usually when I come home to.

MOTHER: That he had, he was upstairs.

THERAPIST: What luck for you, you have to have this...

MOTHER: Yeah, it�s always lovely. So he was upstairs when this happened and then finally, when I think... [00:26:45]

FATHER: Jessica went screaming upstairs, and she was scared, so I came down to figure out what was going on and...

THERAPIST: Now you and he don�t have these problems?

FATHER: I tried taking the phone from him one time and... actually tried to take it out from underneath his mattress while he was sleeping? No, he was awake and I tried, I asked him to give me the phone and he wouldn�t. I reached to grab it, and he and I... went back and forth. But it... (pause) I handle it different. I�m... I�m more calm, because I realize...

THERAPIST: You�re into the low expressed emotion environment.

MOTHER: Well...

FATHER: I know what�s going to rattle him. I know what it�s going to be, and so... A lot of times I will let him say his peace, he�ll argue, and I�ll leave it at that. [00:27:41]

MOTHER: And that�s true, but can I say... and I don�t mean any disrespect, but he�s not around a lot. So, it�s easier to be able to control that when you�re not with it all the time. Can I just add that part? And I�m calm half the time, and I�m not calm half the time. So I have some good moments. But I, I... I�m around it all the time. ...Like all day.

THERAPIST: Well, the problem that we�re really struggling with here is that, were I to poll him and we could play like, �The Family Feud,� where I guess and then I poll him, and we see if I�m right? But I�m kind of guessing that he has more faith in your judgment than he does yours. So, I think he does not respond very well to you.

MOTHER: No, he does not. [00:28:37]

THERAPIST: And... kids respond to... only one kind of power. There are many kinds of power. This comes from industrial psychology, but it�s really accurate for families. So there is legitimate power, which is, �I�m the parent and I said so.� Kevin and zero teenagers respond to that. It�s not especially...

FATHER: That�s not working, yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah, okay. And I mean, that isn�t unusual. Kevin right now, some of this seems like Kevin is just like, an accelerated version of a normal kid, but we�ll get to that in a second. So, it doesn�t matter if you�re the parent. That isn�t why my kids listen to me, and it isn�t why anybody else�s kids listen to them.

Then there is expert power. I think you actually have this going with him, some. That kind of works with kids if they really see you as an expert on something they�re interested in, like when you guys go hunting and fishing, and you guys kind of fit together well that way. That works for him. [00:29:41]

Then there is coercive power. You can use coercive (and reward; they�re really kind of just opposites of the same), you can use those two forms of power with kids. You kind of have to sometimes, but you have to use them really sparingly, because that will only work if you have the most effective and important level of power...

...and that is referent power. That is the power we get from people wanting to be like us, not like us, be like us. So he more wants to emulate you and he is, I think, at the 180 degree opposite of wanting to emulate you. So you have no influence over him. So the only way to make that happen... You really cannot physically challenge him. I mean you probably still could a little bit, but not much.

FATHER: It wouldn�t go well.

THERAPIST: It wouldn�t go well. And then when they get to be 15 or 16, you know, people will all be like... It�s always kind of an interesting folklore in our culture about how back in the day, you just hit kids and then they got better. Every kid I know turned 15 and beat the living crap out of their parent! That was the (chuckles) last time you ever had that happen! It�s like a rite of passage. So, you sure can�t go that route, because he sure will get bigger (mother attempts to interject) at some point. And even you, Wes, will have to worry about it. [00:31:05]

MOTHER: But that doesn�t get to the, I mean, that was kind of a fluke, really. (therapist affirms) I mean, it�s, because he�s... yeah.

THERAPIST: But we�re, some of those things, like the painting of the wheels. Let�s back up for a second on that. Like, I know why you were upset with him for not going to work. I would be the same way. But, how do you, does he like, he like gets paid to work for you, doesn�t he?

FATHER: He had spent the night at someone�s house.

MOTHER: But they were counting on these bodies to help with this project that had been, you know, a couple of weeks in the planning.

THERAPIST: What? How did, how... I�ve kind of been there before. How did you decide not to push the issue with him on that?

FATHER: On going?

THERAPIST: Going, yeah. Just thought it would be more trouble than it�s worth or...?

FATHER: Yeah. I just, I didn�t want an argument, and I didn�t want him there if he didn�t want to be there.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I get it. That�s what I kind of (chuckles) thought you might be thinking. [00:32:00]

MOTHER: But, but... and see the different, the one reason he does resort, because...

FATHER: I�m not as strict.

MOTHER: I�m much more the disciplinarian and I don�t give in, and there is giving in over here, so I mean, it�s...

THERAPIST: Well, but if... So... You two are really at odds about this, more than anybody is with Kevin.

FATHER: We�re two different extremes, yeah. I think she picks on things that are... too nit-picky. I probably don�t address things that are more serious. I mean...

THERAPIST: So what I�d have done is the same thing you did, but I would have said, �Kevin, you�re either going to need to make up some work for me at some point or I�m going to find somebody else to get the job, and you�re not going to have anything.� Now, I don�t quite remember with you guys, how you have this set up for him economically. Because for my kids, if I cut them off financially, they don�t have (chuckles) anything to...

FATHER: We just started doing that.

THERAPIST: Yeah, they... Okay. We have talked about this, yeah? They don�t have anything. They have to earn their way and so, when Evan comes in and vacuums every weekend, you know, and cleans up, and empties the trash, and cleans Ruth�s box, and brushes her, and all that stuff, then he gets paid. If he doesn�t, then not only is he a little concerned, because he won�t enough money, but he (and he likes money), but may just find some other nice boy to do his job, and he doesn�t want that. [00:33:23]

So that would be way to just kind of calmly say, �Well, when are you going to make the time up for me?� I actually think Kevin probably would have made the time up for you. I realize you needed his help at that point, but both you and I are not just businessmen and employees. We are also trying to teach our kids, and we have a little more flexibility, and right we do. Like, if I say, Well, Evan, if you don�t come in Sunday, you�re going to have to come in early Sunday morning, get up early Sunday morning, because that�s the only other time I have to do it.

So, those are the, that�s kind of a training process. It�s way more important than whether my office gets cleaned, although I�m now, to be honest with you, I am kind of depending on you to do it. (chuckles) So, I am in the same boat, but I know at the end of the day, the more important thing is that Evan is participating in the economy and doing his work. So, I mean, with the wheels of the thingamajig, why didn�t you want him to paint the wheels? Well, not with your special paint! I understand that, but why didn�t you want him to paint the wheels? [00:34:28]

MOTHER: I think probably... starting out irritated to begin with, and so everything is going to be tainted, his attitude is that he�s entitled to everything, everything is his and it�s an attitude that I have a difficult time with. So he�s going, �Well, you know, why can�t I paint them? It�s mine!� It�s like, �Well, it�s not yours!� You know, and... �I�m the one who...�

THERAPIST: Ownership is a little unclear to me in this story. Is it or isn�t it his?

MOTHER: It�s not his, no! Absolutely! We bought it, it�s ours, he rides it, but it�s not his. You know, so, I mean absolutely it�s not his. If he bought it, it�s his and he can do whatever he wants to with it, but since it�s ours, it�s just not one of those days I wanted him to paint the wheels and... I didn�t think...

THERAPIST: Could you understand there is no way for him to interface with that? There is no way, Maggie. He can�t... if he, if you guys said, �You can ride this around and pop wheelies on it (or whatever and, you know, and I guess kind of tear it up, I assume; it has no other use), then he says, �Can I paint the wheels on it,� and you say �No, I don�t want it, I essentially don�t want you to do it today, because I�m mad at you,� this... it�s a shit storm from there on out. [00:35:38]

MOTHER: Well, but I don�t think he should be able to do whatever he wants. I have a problem with that. I don�t understand how that�s going to help fix him if he gets his way in everything he wants to do.

THERAPIST: You want to pick out the battles that have meaning. Like having, shutting his phone off when he isn�t studying, you go! You do that. You shut it off. You shut it off (chuckles) until he�s finished doing his work. You have the technology to do that now. If you want to... get rid of all snack food in the home (as soon as you get it done at your house, come to my house and you can get rid of mine, too! I�d like it all to go away), just get rid of it all! And too bad for him.

You have power to do that, and that is your dominion to do. But what Wes was saying is that you�re like picking on some things... I�m going to rephrase what Wes said; he can correct me if I�m wrong. You�re picking at things that don�t have any substantive meaning. Now if he uses your paint, yeah, that�s a problem. But if you say to him, �If you want to paint the wheels, you need to pick up a spray paint the next time you�re at the store with your money, and that�s fine by me.� [00:36:51]

Or �Only use the old paint that�s out in the garage; don�t use mine.� So he feels like you�re, you know, telling him, �This is a limit, don�t use my special things,� but also you�re not just doing it to be capricious. It just looks like you�re mad at him. Keeping your paint for yourself �totally your right. Telling him, �I don�t want you to paint it, because I�m mad at you,� (and I know you didn�t really say that, but he totally picked up on that)...

MOTHER: Well, and in fact, I probably, I don�t even remember, but I...

THERAPIST: You did say it!

MOTHER: ...really wasn�t terribly opposed to the paint, but it�s like, not at this time. And so then he calls �this is what he does �so then he�ll call Dad, and Dad says whatever, and he does it. And so, that, I think that�s what happened. But...

FATHER: Well, and... he did call me. I said, �I don�t care if you paint the wheels. Make sure you check with Mom.� And so then, I come home and they�re painted.

THERAPIST: With her special paint.

MOTHER: And I just don�t... yeah. And... yeah. Anyway. [00:37:52]

FATHER: Well...

THERAPIST: My thing is it�s not that any one of these things is important; you�re describing as an escalating curve toward the wall kicking. And again, it�s, you know, I would presume he�s going to have to repair the wall at this point.

MOTHER: (affirms) He actually even offered that today.

FATHER: Well, we�re not going to do that until this is... I don�t want to keep fixing it. I only want to fix it once.

THERAPIST: Keep fixing it again. I think it would be kind of amusing if Kevin had to fix the wall again and again, frankly, but... The quality of the repair (chuckles) would be degraded as time progressed. But I mean, I think there is actually an interesting, you know, will he kick a wall that he had to repair? Isn�t there an interesting question before us? I don�t know, but... it might be worth... I get your logic in that, but I would, you know, you can use his resources. They have those thing, see how big this is, but they have those small pieces of sheetrock down at Home Depot.

FATHER: I guess he�s exceeded that size.

MOTHER: Well, the two smaller ones would be fine, but this one is... [00:38:53]

THERAPIST: Well, and I think the question becomes... Then this takes us back to the school situation. That�s a particularly dicey problem, because on one hand, I don�t know if that expresses an anger problem on Kevin�s part. I would not have done it that way, if I were him.

FATHER: You would have?

THERAPIST: I would not have, not in that situation. But if it�s true (which is why I wanted to know the history of it, that there was an altercation going on, a bullying situation), Kevin handled it in a traditional manner. He just did it in the most ludicrous location you could do it.

FATHER: Well, and I think anytime you try to manhandle him...that�s what sets him off.

THERAPIST: I just, that�s why I wanted to try to figure out with him whether it was impulsive or he had a strategic objective, and it looks impulsive to me.

FATHER: Yeah. I don�t, he did not go up there with the intention he was going to hit him.

THERAPIST: You don�t think he did?

FATHER: No! No.

THERAPIST: That�s very interesting.

MOTHER: (whispers) I don�t know...

THERAPIST: Okay. I missed... I was going the opposite way. I thought maybe he thought he had... So you think he went in and fronted him to get him to back down, and the kid accelerated the situation. Kevin accelerated it, and it got where it got. (father affirms) [00:40:04]

Because the correct way to handle that from a young man�s standpoint is to say, �You meet me after school, mother fucker!� (chuckles) And if the kid doesn�t do it, if the kid doesn�t find a way to do it, then the kid is one down, and Kevin wins. It�s interesting to me that Kevin didn�t think of that solution. That�s why I�m trying to figure out how well he thought it through. But you�re saying he was sort of part way there and it got out of hand.

FATHER: I think any time you... push his heat button, that�s his reaction, is to...

THERAPIST: So you think when the kid went to put him in the headlock, that flipped the switch?

FATHER: Absolutely.

THERAPIST: All right. But you know, haven�t you been in that situation, Wes?

FATHER: (lowered voice) I don�t blame him.

THERAPIST: I know. I didn�t want to say it with him in here. [00:40:51]

MOTHER: Well, he...

FATHER: I know. I don�t... I�m... I hate to say it. I�m kind of proud of him.

THERAPIST: Well, I wasn�t going to say that either! (chuckles) I don�t think that was, I think he did not strategically think through the consequences to himself (father affirms), but if he doesn�t front the kid, he�s going, and the kid really was bullying him, he�s going to get bullied!

FATHER: Well, and...

THERAPIST: I have to ask this question. I was teaching this sweet little middle school, little Jewish middle school children the other day at, over on Park, in the Jewish school there. They, I am, when I go and do a presentation, and kids ask me questions, I answer honestly. They said, �Have you ever been bullied?� Oh, shit! I don�t really want to answer this! They said, �What did you do?� And I said, �Well, there were three guys, and I told them to meet me after school, and they all three jumped me, and I took them all out!� (chuckles)

I said, �Now! I�m going to teach you how to do that, without having to hit anybody, which is to form a social influence that will stop the bullying in your school. You have to be tougher than the bully.� You don�t have to be physically tougher, but, you know, that�s how guys do this. It�s just you, you�re going to get in trouble if you do it in the hall. I bet that kid probably won�t bully Kevin again! I bet a lot of people won�t! [00:42:08]

MOTHER: Well, even the mom, the mom called and she�s like, �Oh, I feel so sorry for you!� (meaning me), because her son�s in...

FATHER: I think that�s why he got an ISS, because he�s already had two out of school suspensions.

MOTHER: Well, and also the school said, �Once you draw blood, that crosses the line.� So Kevin drew blood. But...

THERAPIST: Which she couldn�t have known in advance, but I have to admit, if you punch in the face, logically he should have assumed that, but (chuckles) then when Kevin...

MOTHER: But the mom was going, �You know, I�m sure George deserved it!� You know, she was totally on that side. She goes, �I, you know, if Kevin, if he�s picking on Kevin, you know, he probably deserved it and ta da ta da.� And then, you know, some people, some of the teachers and office staff at school, like, �Yeah. You know, that kid, the kid�s in trouble a lot.� So he still got suspended. Then I had that very same conversation with him on the way in, and about �Who do you actually think won in this situation?� And he goes, �Well, I did!� You know, same thing, I said, �But... you�re the one that�s out of school!� [00:43:06]

THERAPIST: There is case to be made for Kevin�s position, because in the long run, this probably insulates Kevin from bullying down the road. In the short run, he lost. And that�s why I really was asking him, it was a sincere question. I think I see his position and I see ours. I think we have to stand up for solutions, but at the same time (and if he�s correct, correct, of the series of behaviors moving up to that), that is probably his best solution, not in that situation, where he can then be held accountable for it in the way he was. I suspect... of course, I think that kid might have shown up after school! I don�t that kid realized what he was getting himself into!

FATHER: I think he�s, the kid is, I had him in Scouts for years. (therapist responds) I don�t think he would have shown up.

THERAPIST: You don�t think he would have shown up? You know more than I do, Wes. You�re adding to my data set, so you think, if Kevin would have cast a strong shadow, the kid would have...

FATHER: He would have backed down.

THERAPIST: Kevin needs to probably think about that, because I see where you�re saying that (ph).

FATHER: God, yeah! [00:44:09]

THERAPIST: So here is the problem. We�re really trying to figure out, does Kevin have an anger problem, or do you and Kevin mix so poorly that you each express an anger problem with each other? Now, I�m really posing that. What do you think?

MOTHER: Well, I don�t think he has, shows anger just with me. But it�s... I�m definitely more there, because we�re there together all the time. But he has anger.

FATHER: They are a little salt and vinegar. Is that what, is that how you say it?

THERAPIST: Well, I don�t know if that�s the right analogy, but I totally get what you... I think you mean oil and vinegar (chuckles).

FATHER: Yeah, I didn�t think that sounded right.

THERAPIST: I could spend some time thinking through salt and vinegar; it might work! Okay, so...

MOTHER: It�s not like it�s all directed (father agrees)... I mean, you�ve had those battles with him (father agrees) when you�re home and you�re the one that took the phone away. I mean, I�m the one that�s there and having to do all that, so then that anger is at me... [00:45:03]

THERAPIST: And you all understand, I�m all for you shutting his phone off, but physically doing that... Now, I don�t know what he�ll do if you shut his phone off. Quietly, you say, �We�ll turn that back on whenever you get it together.� But, but... we�ll see. But I know (chuckles) that putting your hands on his chocolate probably isn�t the best move at that moment. And if you need to go, like... have your own self-calming time to not do that, get, go do it. Go... say, �Kevin, I�m going for a country drive,� or something.

(sighs) And if he, and if you want him to pay for your paint, by golly, you have him pay for your paint! Have at it! If you want to point out to him that he is violating your space, just say to him, �Kevin, you know, you used my paint when I asked you not to. When we go to the hardware store, please buy me some new paint for, to replace that. Don�t you think that would be fair, Kevin?�

I�d be really curious what he would say. Don�t you think he would say, �Fine. I�ll do that�?

MOTHER: Oh, yeah. Yeah. He definitely would.

THERAPIST: Okay, there you go! [00:46:05]

MOTHER: But again, it�s not one situation, I don�t know whether it was the culmination of everything and I, I...

THERAPIST: Right, because you not only have to do this 800 times a day, Maggie! (chuckles)

MOTHER: I know! I know!

THERAPIST: Constantly do it! Yes!

MOTHER: I... and I... don�t... (lowers voice) and he�s stronger than me, so I�m not that stupid that often, that I would wrestle him. (regular voice) So that was a fluke. (therapist affirms) I know, I knew it was wrong at the time, but it just, I was tired of him winning, you know, at every single thing. He�s getting away with everything, and I, I just don�t, I just am not sure...

THERAPIST: I�m not sure what he�s getting away with. I still don�t quite understand that. He painted the tires...

MOTHER: But it�s all the time, every time. It�s... like I hide his phone, he finds it and he�s using it. He, we ask him for his phone, he doesn�t give it up. He locks his door, we can�t get... it just...

FATHER: �Don�t wear my shirt;� he�ll wear my shirt. �Don�t use the charger for the phone;� he�ll take the charger for the phone and take it upstairs. [00:47:03]

THERAPIST: This phone thing is...

MOTHER: He has no rule...

THERAPIST: The phone is really...

MOTHER: (under breath) (sighs) Oh!

THERAPIST: You have to get your equipment lined up on that, because then that will end that discussion in a hurry.

FATHER: That will be lined up. We... found other things on there as well. He�s sexting.

THERAPIST: Well probably... Let�s talk about that for a second. Like, he... he�s going to do that. They all, 100% of all of them do it. Now, is he sending pictures or just words?

MOTHER: I think so, but I don�t know for sure.

FATHER: I wish it were words.

THERAPIST: Definitely, send pictures.

MOTHER: Well, I have...

THERAPIST: We need to just have a discussion about what a really unfathomably bad idea it is to send your penis to people. That really is producing child pornography, so we need to have a little talk about that. He�s going to... and we, do we know these girls? I mean, they�re local or...?

MOTHER: See, he doesn�t know I know, because I just discovered this.

FATHER: Just came out today.

MOTHER: So we haven�t talked to him about it yet.

THERAPIST: You have to... here is the deal. You have to think about this. I�m going to do a radio show about this at some point. I�ve done a couple of them. But you have to think about all of your materials that you know about, about what the purpose of any spying is. You have to first of all decide if you have a reasonable suspicion to spy. Reasonable suspicion means that you believe there is a likelihood of some harmful act being committed. [00:48:24]

Now, the harmful act of texting, actual text/sexting is only if somebody�s daughter is mad about it and tells her mom, or the mom catches her, because 100% of all of them do it. They just do not think of the difference between saying something in person, or over the phone, and creating a transcript (mother affirms) of their sexually explicit communication. They don�t think about it.

I have to, I have a document that kids will start signing soon (well, and adults), that they�ll, in order to use texting with me, they�ll have to sign this document. It says that they have a passcode on their phone, that they will delete every text that we exchange, and that... what�s the other one I came up with today? Um...

FATHER: And you get to know the password? [00:49:17]

THERAPIST: Oh, I�m talking about clients I see. (father affirms) That�s an interesting other question. A parent will have to certify that they are not going to read our communications because they are privileged communication for anybody 14 and above. There is some other thing I thought of today, about texting... (pause) but... it will come back to me. But that kids will have to certify that, because any communications we have are protected communications, or else I won�t let them use texting.

They don�t think about this! (mother affirms) Oh, I know! They have to put my name in the phone as something they don�t... like Sigmund Freud or something, you know, something that no one will know what it is. That�s... if they do all those things, then they�re protecting their privacy. I can�t protect them any more than that.

Well, kids don�t think about any of that! (mother affirms) They don�t put a passcode on their phones! So if I say, �I�m very concerned about you being sexually active with your boyfriend, we need to discuss this next week,� (which I wouldn�t do, by the way (chuckles) for that reason), then they leave the phone laying around, and sister reads it and tells mom, and the whole world comes to an end. [00:50:22]

That�s where Kevin�s thinking is right now. He doesn�t think about texting as a document. So needs to think about that. Now, the question is, if you have reasonable suspicion to spy on him, is he going to do harm. In sending sexually explicit images, yes, you have the right to, morally to say to him, �We�re going to interdict that and it�s a problem,� but you need to teach him why.

Just stopping him from sending his penis all around the world isn�t going to solve the problem. He�s got to understand what that�s about. Most kids don�t.

MOTHER: They hear the information, but they... they don�t...

THERAPIST: Yeah. And then the Snapchat is what you�re talking about. (mother affirms) We did a show about that in the summer. Snapchat is really only ten seconds long, except people can screen shot the phone and immediately keep it, so Kevin�s penis waves throughout the world. (mother affirms) So those are all things he needs to learn and he needs to learn the ethical use of technology. The problem is, because you�re in such a battle, then he�s not learning about the ethics of technology, he�s learning about how to, you know, piss you off. [00:51:29]

MOTHER: Well, but we have those conversations. And like we had a great conversation on the way in.

THERAPIST: Well, good!

MOTHER: And, so he, but... He still... you know, he knows what he knows and that kind of thing, but we did have a good conversation about that kind of stuff, without him really realizing what I was talking about.

THERAPIST: Well, when his penis gets plastered on someone�s backpack, then he�s going to decide that wasn�t a good idea. The problem is, it really is an illegal act. They�ve actually changed the laws about this, because it�s becoming so ubiquitous at this point and they don�t, nobody wants children to be on the sex offenders� registry because they took naked pictures of themselves. We�d have to be, we�ve been so slow to catch up the last five or six years.

By the way, my column is probably one of the first published documents to talk about sexting; we didn�t even have a word for it, because the minute kids got camera phones, (clap of hands) that�s what they did with them. I mean, a week later, we started getting this, and this was like, I don�t know, seven years ago (chuckles). It�s been that long (father responds) that we�ve been dealing with this, right at the beginning. [00:52:34]

FATHER: I�m trying to think when I took a picture of mine. What year was that?

THERAPIST: (chuckles) Yeah, there you go, yeah.

MOTHER: I know I didn�t get it.

THERAPIST: You can sext her...

FATHER: That was the other girl.

THERAPIST: You can sext her all you want, Wes. I hope that you will!

MOTHER: Please don�t! (laughing)

THERAPIST: Married couples should sext each other frequently.

MOTHER: Oh, God!

THERAPIST: I drive my wife crazy with that. I�ll text her little sexy messages. She�s like, the kids are going to find this and I�m like, You have a passcode. That�s the point! So... But they�re going to do that, and you have to be very calm in the response. It�s the safest sex they�re ever going to have (nobody�s ever gotten pregnant from a sext), but if you have a calm conversation with him, one of the best... I�ll give you a great example, of this. I�ve never told you this story. Oh, I know I haven�t, because Kevin�s been in here.

Your, I had this mom whose kid was annoying and she came in and she says, �I don�t know what to do.� I said, �What?� I see her. She said, �My son,� (he was, I think 15) �came to me with a dilemma. He said, �Mom, I need you to get Plan B.�� And the mom said, �Plan B won�t work on you!� (chuckles) And he says, �It will work on my girlfriend. I need you to get it for her.� And she said, �Well, my God, why doesn�t her mom get it for her?� �Her mom doesn�t know we�re having sex.� Well, neither did this mom! (mother and father respond) And the mom, she actually, you know, called me. She says, �It�s kind of an emergency.� She texted me and I called her. [00:53:59]

She says, I, you know, I�m, and the clock is running on Plan B (you have to get it within 72 hours). And she says, �What do you think I should do?� (chuckles) This was before, just before you could buy it over the counter at any age. Remember the FDA came in, they forced, the court forced the FDA to change the ruling. And I said, �You know this is really a dilemma, because on one hand, this isn�t your daughter; on the other hand, if your son has impregnated her, you�re going to be every bit as culpable in this.� And I, we went through both sides of it, and she finally went and bought the Plan B. (mother responds)

But here is the important part of the story. Oh, and by the way, her rule for this was, the girl had to talk to her mother then about birth control. I thought that was very wise. (mother and father agree) So, the moral of that story is, what horrifying mess might that couple of have been in, if that kid could not come to his mom? (mother affirms) And I think you�re not very far away on this, Maggie. It�s you and he have these nice conversations, and he drove up here today, had a nice conversation? If you will start trying to go down that tube more than the one of frustration and seeing him as (sigh) such a pain in the butt, I think the two of you will be okay. [00:55:15]

But you�re going to have to kind of go, I think I hate to side with Wes on this, and have you two start a fight with each other tonight, but I think Wes�s got this down, about being calm about it. You don�t need to let him get away with things. But don�t take them personally. This is where you get into trouble. You really take it personally. Would you like to argue that point?

MOTHER: I don�t know that would have considered it personally. I don�t like that... and what I understand is that growing up, you did what your parents said. And the normal things, discipline, don�t work for him. So, in my opinion, he does whatever he wants and he has this...

THERAPIST: Well, now did I hear you just, did I hear you correctly that normally kids do what their parents say?

MOTHER: Growing up.

FATHER: When we grew up.

THERAPIST: When you grew up.

MOTHER: Absolutely. Back in that era...

THERAPIST: How did they get you to do that?

MOTHER: They did! (chuckles)

FATHER: Scared us. (therapist chuckles)

MOTHER: Well, I mean you had your wild thing. I did not. We, it was a... yeah. [00:56:18]

THERAPIST: But see, I think you began to respect your parents after you were 25, and you just think you did when you were a kid.

MOTHER: I knew if I did something wrong, I would get...

FATHER: There would be consequences.

MOTHER: ...spanked, and it was the physical, you know, spanking. I think dad always says, we messed up like once or twice when we were little, we got spanked, and we never... That�s what he keeps telling us. But it was true. I knew that if I did something wrong, I was going to get it bad. Well, kids today, you know, we don�t do that anymore, and I don�t know. So I didn�t do things wrong. (chuckles) He did, but...

THERAPIST: Well I... You did things wrong, Maggie.

MOTHER: The stories come out around the campfire.

THERAPIST: No doubt. Yeah, I, my parents, I don�t want to say never spanked me (but maybe a couple of times), but that isn�t why I did anything for my parents, especially when I got to be, you know, 14 or 15. My dad was always a tall, thin fellow and weighed like 130 pounds, most of, he was like six foot (chuckles/(inaudible). And got all the way up to 145 at one point! [00:57:24]

And so, I don�t know that I�d want to try to take him (he�s a pretty strong guy), but it didn�t ever occur to me that that was an issue. I just, I did respect him, but I didn�t ever think of it that way. It would never have occurred to me, to think I respected my dad. And I also, you know, you know how I was respectful to him? I was really careful to sneak around, sneakily, so that I would never get caught and embarrass him.

My dad was a United Methodist minister in town, so I went out of my way (father affirms) to be very, very careful. But I absolutely was in places I shouldn�t have been, doing what I shouldn�t be doing. And I got caught a couple of times and I was really (chuckles) embarrassed. I had compunction about that, but it didn�t make me not do those things. (father affirms)

MOTHER: It maybe, and dad taught and mom had a business and I had older sisters that were, you know, good in the community and that kind of stuff. And I knew that what I did would reflect badly upon my family. And I... In fact, I remember going to junior high, walking to junior high one day. A van pulled up beside of me and asked if I wanted marijuana. I said, �No, my dad teaches Health.� And I kept walking! I mean, that�s how I respect/stops/, that�s what it meant to me, that that would be an excuse to these drug people that, yeah. So I never wanted to disappoint my parents. [00:58:44]

THERAPIST: Well, I think you had more a sense of referent power with them because you, you had faith in their judgment. I think you must have, if you were that supportive of them, the way I was with my parents.

MOTHER: Oh, absolutely.

THERAPIST: So, I didn�t, you know... That was a little different. I think you were a little more anxious than I was, because I was not a very anxious person, but I was detail oriented enough, that I knew that I could be sure not to embarrass my parents. But I think Kevin, I don�t think Kevin is that far off the mark on that. I just think he is a more normal kid than you are familiar with. The point of adolescence (whether it�s your adolescence, yours, mine, or his), is to do teenager things and to differentiate from your family of origin, so that you are an independent person.

The purpose of being parents is to instil in kids what we think is the correct way to treat others, and to behave, and to get ahead in life, and all that. Those things have to be in conflict! They have to be, because you can�t differentiate from you, if you just agree with everything he does. I mean, I know people who let girlfriends sleep over and smoke weed with their kids! What�s that kid going to rebel against? They�re probably going do a bunch of coke and heroin or something, because there is nothing to push against. [01:00:00]

So you have to stand up for what you believe in, but you have to have two sets of expectations. One of them are your internal expectations and one are your external expectations. The internal expectations are going to be easier. The external ones can be, �This is what we expect you to do.� I don�t know, �Don�t have sex until you�re married,� or whatever. I don�t suggest you shoot for that one because it... right. (father chuckles) That�s my... exactly, Wes! (chuckles)

But, you know, shoot for like, �I hope that when you have sex, it�s with someone you love.� That�s a good one to shoot for. Well, internally (sighs) that may not happen. But you kind of know that, but you uphold a standard, you teach him a standard that you believe is important. You know, you can pick a ton of those, but inside, don�t take them personally. If he has sex with a girl and, you know, he�s not in love with her, don�t take it personally. If he�s, you tell him you need to be respectful of old people, which he seems like he would be...

FATHER: Very. [01:01:00]

THERAPIST: Yeah. But if, whatever! If you tell him, �I expect you to manage your temper appropriately.� But inside, know that�s hard for him and that you�re going to hold him to the standard, but you�re not going to feel hurt or personally affronted. I don�t know if that�s a word or not, but... personally upset by it if he doesn�t. That�s where I think you two struggle. I think you don�t take these things nearly as personally and I think you take them personally. I think you feel hurt that he�s doing these things. I actually don�t think Kevin means to hurt you. I think he means...

MOTHER: I don�t think I feel hurt. Angry, but...

THERAPIST: Well, you come with... but if I were to poll Kevin... What did you say? Angry? If I was to poll Kevin, I think he would say that you probably get angry, but I think he�d say you take it too personally. We could try it. He would say some teenageboy version of that. He�s pretty articulate. He might say it just that way.

MOTHER: Oh, he is very... And it would be fine with me if you ask him. I never looked at this as if I�m hurt, because that to me is a different total emotion than how I feel. [01:02:02]

THERAPIST: You used, let me say one word for what you said. You used the term �disappointed� earlier. Just the word, I mean you said it in the context of after he had done something and you already disappointed that he hadn�t gone, I think with Wes, if I remember it. That disappointment is the word of hurt. And I... Think of that, just think about it this week, because I think that�s what connects to you, that you feel kind of like a failure at this sometimes.

That is not in evidence, Maggie. (chuckles) There is no evidence that you�re failing. He�s actually a pretty polite kid, he comes in here and speaks, I think, pretty articulately. If you can keep him channeled somewhat, having a will is helpful in our society, to be willful. I think he could use a little more personal responsibility. Anyone want to argue that point? (chuckles) But that�s something you work to help him evolve. I have a whole book about that. I�ll let you get a copy of here next month, or next year, in which I talk a lot about responsibility. He probably would like...

FATHER: It�s not (inaudible). [01:03:07]

THERAPIST: Not, I just did a focus group on it, an ironically named focus group on Sunday. We have a lot of good input on it, and I�m doing my revisions now, so I�m hoping it will be out either March or April; and Kevin will like it! I think Kevin would probably read it. It�s at a level he would probably enjoy, even though it�s for adults. I normally figure 15 and up for that, but I think he would like it.

FATHER: (inaudible)

THERAPIST: Does he read much?

FATHER: No. Maybe he�d read it.

MOTHER: What did you say?

FATHER: Does he read much. No.

MOTHER: He hates it.

THERAPIST: He might like this one. He might say Jesus is about me.

FATHER: Um... is he going to come back in today?

THERAPIST: Well, we�re out of time! I was wishing to do so, but this became so interesting that we just kept going.

FATHER: I do think that he will be angry that you sent him out of the room... and may rebel about coming back next time.

THERAPIST: Oh, well okay. Go grab him real quick. That�s probably a good idea.

MOTHER: Well, how I think, I think, you know, on our ride home, I�ll just tell him it was more about me (chuckles), because it�s true. [01:04:07]

THERAPIST: Well, I think, I think Wes�s right. Grab him a second and let�s just make sure we�re all good, because what he thinks is, we�re all in here bashing him. And we�re not! (chuckles)

(pause)

FATHER: Hi! (pause) (door closing)

THERAPIST: Okay. So, hello Kevin! We... we�ve reached a peace. So, the next time that you need to defend yourself, could you perhaps tell the person, �You better meet me after school, boy!� Or you can use other language quietly, if no one hears you. And he says, �You gonna make me?� I don�t know what he says. You say, �I will, after school.� And he says, �Why don�t you do something now?� You say, �Because I don�t want to get suspended again. So you meet after school.�

And he goes, �Well, I have to ride the bus.� And you say, �Well, just miss it, because I�m going to be out there after school waiting for you.� Off school grounds, over there, far away. We believe he will not show up, but if you do that, then he will be in the down position and you and he can take care of business, where you don�t get in trouble the next time. [01:05:29]

This is what I�m trying to figure out, if you have to, if you�re going to have to use aggression to protect yourself, think first. I actually don�t think you realized this was going to get as hairy as it did. (Kevin affirms) So, now you know, in the future, because we think defending yourself is appropriate, but choose your place and time. That makes you the superior man in the situation. (Kevin agrees) Fair enough? (Kevin affirms) (pause) How long are you, when do you get to go back to school?

KEVIN: Um, 20...

MOTHER: Tuesday.

FATHER: And then they�re off Wednesday.

THERAPIST: Is there any chance... I know I�m pushing it here (chuckles), but is there a chance that you and he could shake hands and you just tell him... Naw, I knew I was pushing it.

KEVIN: No. No way.

THERAPIST: Okay. I didn�t want you to shake hands in a like pussy way (Kevin chuckles), I wanted you to shake hands in like a strong way like, �Are we square now?� Because I think he�ll say, �Yes,� because he ran down the hall crying. (Kevin chuckles) But if you were to be the bigger man and try that, you might have more power; but I am not there, so I do not know. I�m just saying what I think about it. (Kevin affirms) The person who reaches out is the stronger person, because that person is not afraid. Just something to think about. [01:07:01]

Okay, so did you have any closing questions? I will give you equal time next time, Kevin, since I booted you out. I will boot them out next time (Kevin affirms) and give you equal time. Is that fair? (Kevin affirms) Good.

FATHER: Thank you.

THERAPIST: (sighs) Fair enough. Did you get to talk to the pretty girl in the lobby? (Kevin chuckles)

KEVIN: No, I just sat there and drank water.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay. Well, then I will see you on Tuesday. Yeah, you can talk to the pretty girl. She�s very nice. She�s probably (inaudible) and looks a little old for you, but... (chuckles) All right, Sir!

KEVIN: See you!

THERAPIST: I�ll see you the next time! Take care.

FATHER: Thank you.

THERAPIST: Good luck with your... sheet rock skill. (father chuckles) One of the things you might want to watch out for is that normally I do really good work, but if you could feel it there, you�ll see a bad seam and you want to...

FATHER: You haven�t been in our house! There is not a good seam in there!

THERAPIST: Yeah. You want to use three knives. (Kevin chuckles) You use the narrow knife and the bigger knife and the bigger knife (inaudible) you can go with as little sanding as possible.

KEVIN: I�ll just put some caulking on it, I guess.

THERAPIST: No. (chuckles)

FATHER: Paint it white?

THERAPIST: Learn if you�re going to break things, you learn how to fix them. See you later! (all respond)

END TRANSCRIPT