Transcript of Audio File:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

�[00:05:10]

THERAPIST: So, has Ruth kept you entertained out here? Come on back. I assume she'll come too. She got locked out today, in the lobby, and was very upset.

MOTHER: Oh, really?

THERAPIST: She knows better.

FATHER: Julie doesn't even know if that's a soundproof door.

THERAPIST: It's an exterior door, so the seal is around the outside, so you can kind of hear the radio, also helps with that.

MOTHER: But the seal around the door helps with soundproofing?

THERAPIST: That's the main reason. You guys were debating that you made sure?

MOTHER: I wasn't — I'm taking his money too.

THERAPIST: What was your bet, Kevin?

CLIENT: I thought it was just, you got a bigger door or you got a smaller door, and you were going to build a space.

THERAPIST: Totally beat you in engineering today didn't she? [00:06:14]

MOTHER: Go to woodshop.

THERAPIST: This one and the other one are exterior doors and over the years, I have learned how difficult it is to create a soundproof seal around a door, and I decided, when I remodeled this office, I was going to try exterior doors, because they do that for weather stripping. And as you can hear, you can't hear the radio at all anymore.

MOTHER: Yeah, right.

THERAPIST: If you're really loud in here and a person puts their head right up against the door, you can hear, but it sure is better than the usual.

MOTHER: Oh, so next time, I'll bring those little cups and while we're out there, we'll just�

THERAPIST: And I'll have Ruth bite you. That's her other job, is to get the eavesdroppers. Yeah, between that and the sound, actually this wall is a little better. I debated, when we put the walls around theoffice, whether I should pack them with insulation, and if I had it to do over again, I would. The other thing you can do is put that fiberboard behind the sheetrock, and it probably would have done that, but I thought I got away with it. [00:07:25]

FATHER: We can't hear.

MOTHER: And we've tried.

THERAPIST: It's been the least sound problems I've ever had in an office.

MOTHER: Good.

THERAPIST: It's nice when you can design things the way you want them. Well, Mr. Kevin, it's been — oh, whoops, this isn't your chart. I'm like, why did I start writing notes on you, that doesn't make sense. How are we doing?

CLIENT: I had a pretty good week, except our dog died.

THERAPIST: Gracious.

CLIENT: But everything else. I kind of got mad because of the situation. That was my only really bad time that we had, which was this morning, because he died two nights ago.

THERAPIST: Did you have to euthanize him or did he die of�?

CLIENT: No. We were doing exploratory surgery. I don't really know the whole story, but he just didn't make it through the night.

THERAPIST: How old was he?

CLIENT: Nine, is that right?

FATHER: He'd swallowed a sock. [00:08:26]

THERAPIST: Oh, dear. And it got caught in the intestines?

FATHER: Between the stomach and the intestine, the entry into the intestine, so he couldn't — he wouldn't eat, he lost 20 pounds.

THERAPIST: So he was around much of your life.

MOTHER: I think you were five when we got him.

THERAPIST: Yeah, that's hard. Let's see, my son is ten, so about five years ago or so, I had a cat that we had for 22 years.

MOTHER: Wow.

CLIENT: Oh, wow.

THERAPIST: We got the cat — yeah — when we were married, and that was our first try at — and boy, that was really difficult. I had to euthanize her finally. My wife kept telling me you're a bad pet owner, because I kept the cat alive, and the cat was getting more feeble. [00:09:28]

MOTHER: It's hard though. Even if it's the right thing, it's hard.

THERAPIST: Yeah, it is. Did they know it was pretty risky going into the surgery?

CLIENT: Yeah.

MOTHER: Yeah, they did. He had been sick for a while, he had done it before, but we think he threw it up at that point.

THERAPIST: He'd eaten socks before?

MOTHER: Well just the month before.

THERAPIST: Oh, just recently, okay.

MOTHER: There was something that was going on, that he was starting to eat things. He never had done that before. So, it just, it took us too long to make the decision to have the surgery. We were hoping it would work itself out again and it took us too long to make a decision.

THERAPIST: Well that is very sad, Kevin. Was it a hunting dog or was it an indoor dog?

CLIENT: No, it was a German Shepherd.

THERAPIST: So it was a pretty good pet for you.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Well, I'm sorry about that. It's a tough time. So, when you had your — you didn't have your breakdown right off the bat?

CLIENT: Well, I kind of did. I just went and asked my mom if she could take me out to the lake and I just sat out there.

MOTHER: The timing was, he died not last night, the night before, so during the night. Kevin didn't find out about it until after school yesterday, so it's fresh. [00:10:39]

THERAPIST: Oh, so that's why the delayed reaction.

CLIENT: Yeah.

MOTHER: It's fresh.

THERAPIST: Okay, I understand.

MOTHER: He had some alone time and that kind of stuff last night and didn't eat, you know did that whole thing last night, and then woke up this morning and didn't want to go to school.

THERAPIST: So you went out and had your lake reflection time, but then you got up this morning and were just feeling pretty bad.

CLIENT: Yeah, still the same pretty much.

THERAPIST: But took it out on us.

MOTHER: We were working with him. We were not being — he didn't need to get to school, but we were working with him, but he became angry.

CLIENT: Yeah, I just kind of wanted to be left alone and they kept bugging me I guess.

MOTHER: He admitted that he was wrong, which was very —

THERAPIST: You didn't do any property damage this time?

CLIENT: No. I was just angry.

THERAPIST: How did you express your anger?

CLIENT: I just laid down the whole time.

MOTHER: To us?

CLIENT: Oh, I just yelled, that was it. Not like — [00:11:43]

THERAPIST: Like leave me alone and stuff?

CLIENT: Yeah, stuff like that.

THERAPIST: Did you eventually make it to school?

CLIENT: No, I stayed home all day.

THERAPIST: What did you do?

CLIENT: I just laid in my room or I went downstairs and I watched TV for a little bit.

THERAPIST: Wasn't that kind of depressing?

CLIENT: Mm—hmm.

THERAPIST: Okay, so I'm just going to give you a little advice about this, because this isn't the first dead creature you're going to have to deal with, with me. These people are going to die eventually and maybe you have a friend die someday, and I promise you, there will be more pets dying. And so you do want to — I think that thing, where you went out and sat at the lake and all that stuff, that was great, I'm with you on that. And even being angry isn't unusual in these situations, especially at your age, where you're kind of learning and growing, but the more you lay around and think about things during the day, the more depressed you're going to get. It's okay, you're going to have that happen periodically because the dog was close to you and it's going to come back to you periodically in the next few days, and if your main coping is to sit around and get depressed, you're going to have a longer recovery time. So, take the time to be sad, but then you kind of have to push out and get going. You do have school tomorrow, right?

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:13:09]

THERAPIST: One more day before — or do you have two more days before?

CLIENT: We have two more days.

THERAPIST: Does that make sense, do you get my point about that?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I don't want to diminish the seriousness of it, but you're making it a little worse if you just were —

CLIENT: Mm—hmm. And this was the first dog that I've had die, that I can really remember vaguely, because we had his bird dog and then our black lab that died. I just remember burying his dog, Ellie, but I don't remember burying Sam.

THERAPIST: Were you as close to those dogs as this one? This sounds like it was —

CLIENT: No, not very.

THERAPIST: — a much closer relationship.

MOTHER: He was young.

CLIENT: I was really young.

THERAPIST: Well this is how we learn. That's the reason I was kind of giving you that bit of advice, because any time you have a tragedy or crisis in life, you want to try and let it teach you something, so you can deal with the next one. I don't even know — I don't even think not going to school was a bad thing. It's just the moping tends to make one feel worse. [00:14:15]

CLIENT: Yeah. And another thing that made me kind of mad, because I saw him as family, no doubt.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: The school said that I still had to go to school, because —

THERAPIST: Who said this?

CLIENT: The school. He said that the SRS would get involved if I didn't go to school.

THERAPIST: Whoa.

MOTHER: For an excused — we've gone through this. For an excused absence, it needs to be a family member, so a dog wouldn't qualify as that family member.

CLIENT: Yeah, that's what kind of made me mad.

MOTHER: But if you were unexcused, then you have enough of those, then SRS gets involved.

THERAPIST: Do you have any excused absences? With whom did you speak about this?

CLIENT: I didn't talk to anybody about it. I just talked about it with my mom.

MOTHER: I called the school this morning and it just doesn't fall under that spectrum.

THERAPIST: Except that you actually can excuse him for any reason.

MOTHER: Here's the problem though, with that. In and of itself, and I was telling Kevin this. In and of itself, I get it, because it does — you know, fresh, every time something comes up it hits you, you know I get that. However, he's had eight absences this semester already. [00:15:29]

CLIENT: But five of those were for being suspended, and I still did schoolwork at the house all day, during school hours. So technically, I've only had three absences.

THERAPIST: And that includes this one or prior to this one?

CLIENT: Yeah, prior to.

MOTHER: I think two classes, he has eight absences prior to this one, and then all the others were seven. I think he just missed — so this will be the eighth and ninth, right?

CLIENT: Yeah. Some, I've gone home at the end of the day, because I don't feel good at all. Somewhere, like our lunch line, usually we used to come in and we all just used to jump right into the lunch line, and everybody got through within five minutes. Now they excuse us by tables and it takes about 20 minutes, and we have about 30 minutes to eat. Usually, we're the last tables to be excused for some reason. It's not about how loud you are, it's just by choice.

THERAPIST: I know you're headed somewhere with this. [00:16:35]

CLIENT: Yeah. And so you have to eat really fast.

THERAPIST: And then that makes you not feel good?

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't know why.

THERAPIST: Yeah, Kevin buddy, one of the ten problems or twenty, the ADD people have, is you all just cannot stand to be uncomfortable, just like we were talking about with our fabulous bra discussion last time. I deal with this all the time with my kids, so it's not like it's unusual to me, but you've really got to try and fight through some situations. I think your need to stay home for the dog is a better reason than your tummy hurts because you ate too fast. The problem is, if you start going home for everything, then nobody takes you seriously when it's something serious like your dog dying and you feel really bad. Do you know what I'm saying? So, figure out where you're going to fight through on the hard days and then when you really need a mental health break, great. I agree with you, the suspension of five days is a different matter.

CLIENT: That was just the one time. [00:17:44]

THERAPIST: So she just advised you, like did she say okay Kevin, you just have to know this, you mom? Was she just saying, you need to be aware that if these are unexcused, eventually you could get a truancy?

CLIENT: Well, I know this one girl, it felt like she missed half the year. She was probably gone two out of five days, two out of the whole week the whole time.

THERAPIST: Ruth likes to play her musical instrument over there.

MOTHER: That's cute.

THERAPIST: Okay, so you figure you'll be okay or what?

CLIENT: I think I'll be okay, because I was suspended for more days than I have missed class.

THERAPIST: So, but when you were apprised of the unexcused absence, did your mom just say to you here's what you need to know, I called the school, or how did she handle it?

CLIENT: She was just like, I called the school and they said that a loss of a pet doesn't count as an excused absence, or something like that, and that kind of made me mad because she knew that I was hurting, but yet she called the school to see if I still had —

THERAPIST: She's got to inform them. [00:18:56]

CLIENT: What?

THERAPIST: She's got to inform them, she does have to let them know you're not there.

CLIENT: I know, but —

THERAPIST: You think she should have excused you, is that what you're saying?

CLIENT: Yeah. She made it sound a little bit worse than it was by saying that I've missed eight days of school. I have missed eight days of school but yet, five of those days, I was still doing the homework the whole hours of school, so I got just as much done, if more.

MOTHER: Kevin, I wasn't doing that for my benefit. I'm doing that from the school, looking at your record, saying that you have eight absences. Like I said, that goes in your record.

CLIENT: But also the suspension is going to go in my record, so that's going to show that I only had three excused absences.

MOTHER: I do think — I mean, this happens on several situations and it might be a good one to kind of nitpick about the defiance. There was no — and we weren't arguing and yelling. I think we did a good job of trying to calmly� [00:20:07]

THERAPIST: Right. That's what I was sort of figuring. I was asking if you had just kind of advised him. Go ahead.

MOTHER: I don't know what your perspective is, but I'm reading books and I'm learning different things, and so it was not a you get to school kind of thing, but it was, this is going to be an unexcused and this is what happens, you know those kinds of things. I understand why you're upset.

THERAPIST: It's informed consent, you're giving him informed consent.

CLIENT: But she always tells me if it's an unexcused absence, that the SRS is going to get involved. That's what she always tells me.

THERAPIST: Well, down the road, it could happen.

CLIENT: I know, but that —

THERAPIST: It's going to be more of not really SRS but there's a truancy, it's a juvenile justice issue and it's a truancy, and that is theoretically possible.

MOTHER: But that's what the school — so I'm giving you the information they're giving me. But the anger and the —

CLIENT: Couldn't you see where the anger was coming from? I kept saying that I wanted to be left alone. Dad kept knocking on my door every three minutes, saying —

FATHER: First, — [00:21:14]

CLIENT: Dad. Every three minutes, telling me that I needed to go to school, and repeated it maybe six times, and it was obvious that I've made up my mind that I'm not going to go to school, because I feel so crappy, but they both just kept knocking on my door and knocking on my door and knocking on my door. I had matches, because I went to the lake, to make a fire, and then I just sat by the fire, and so it's a teenage room, it smells bad in the room, so I lit a match, and then they come up and they're freaking out about what's going on. They asked me, "Why does it smell like matches?" And I was like, because I lit a match. Why did you light a match, and then I said, "I don't know."

THERAPIST: You don't think they found that a little odd do you?

CLIENT: Yeah, but I'm not going to be smoking. I have really bad asthma right now, that could kill me. I mean, I know it could kill me. [00:22:20]

THERAPIST: I mean, did you ask them what did you think I was going to do?

CLIENT: Yeah, I did.

THERAPIST: What did they say?

CLIENT: Okay, what did I ask then? You seem like you're disagreeing with everything and this is the exact story.

FATHER: You said we freaked out on you lighting the match. I calmly asked, "Did you light a match in there?" And you said yes and I go, "How come?" Then you got mad, you wouldn't let me in. We were both incredibly calm through this whole thing, and you had started out angry the second I knocked on the door.

CLIENT: Because you hadn't been —

FATHER: The second I knocked on the door, you were angry the very first time.

CLIENT: Did you not listen to the whole very first story I was saying, because you kept bugging me and I just wanted to be left alone. I had made that obvious the first time that you knocked on the door, and then you guys came in, and then you somehow unlocked the door from the other side. You got in, you both — you sat down, then mom came around, and then you started asking me the same question and then you go, "Why did you light the match?" I don't know. Did you light a match? Yes. Why did you light it? I don't know. Well, why did you light the match? I don't know. And you asked me that like five times and then I got angry, because you just — I don't understand why you would need to know why I lit the match. [00:23:47]

THERAPIST: Well, because what if you're so distraught, you decide to burn the house down?

CLIENT: Well, I mean it's, it's —

THERAPIST: It doesn't make a lot of sense, but your answer to the question is so bad that it just adds fuel to the fire, for lack of a better metaphor. If they said why did you light the match and you said — I don't know what a good answer would be frankly, it's smelly?

CLIENT: Well, if I said it smells in my room, they would just be like yeah, why did you light the match?

THERAPIST: They were probably like, why don't you get a deodorant spray.

CLIENT: Because my friend — not my friend, this kid, he broke all of them.

THERAPIST: Your friend broke your deodorant spray?

MOTHER: Not deodorant.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I didn't say it very well, I mean like the can of spray like I have in here. Why don't you just spray your room?

CLIENT: Simply because we don't have any.

THERAPIST: So in this situation, you're acting weird.

CLIENT: Because my dog just died, I mean I'm going to be acting weird.

THERAPIST: Sure, but if you start acting weird, the police or your parents or anybody in the universe, aren't going to ask you, gosh did your dog die? They're going to be like, you're coming with us. And so when you do like weird things, like light a match, like if you put a pillowcase over your head, I'd say have at it, whatever, if that's meaningful, if you're like whenever a dog dies, I put a pillowcase over my head, great. That can't hurt anybody. It just looks weird, it doesn't look dangerous, and when you're lighting a match, they have to wonder if you have ill intent. They have to, that's not an overreaction, because is it not true that when they overreact, I tell them that. This isn't an overreaction. And when you have no answer, because I can't think of a good answer, lighting my crack pipe? No, that's probably not a very good answer, so they can't figure out what you're thinking and guess whose anxiety goes up then? Right. So, I see where you guys were having a hard time. Now sure, you were distraught and feeling sad, but that actually adds to their worry, that you're maybe not thinking straight. [00:26:04]

CLIENT: Mm—hmm, but I mean I think it would have been as simple as did you light a match? Yes. Well, don't light a match. I mean, it could have been as simple as that. It could have then gone away and it wouldn't feel — that's just what I feel.

THERAPIST: So if you came in the living room �—

FATHER: And you smelled gas.

THERAPIST: Yeah. If you came in the living room and your dad had your mom around the throat and he was cutting off all her hair, wouldn't you wonder what was going on?

CLIENT: I would be so scared that I wouldn't —

THERAPIST: There you go, thanks. That's what I'm talking about.

CLIENT: I wouldn't even talk about it, I wouldn't even ask.

THERAPIST: Right, very good. And they're thinking the same thing. They're thinking, is he going to light the bed on fire, is he going to burn himself? Is he burning himself, is he so upset?

CLIENT: I mean, I know it's a dog and he meant a lot to me, but I don't think I would kill myself over that.

THERAPIST: I believe you.

CLIENT: That's too selfish. [00:27:04]

THERAPIST: I understand in the moment when you — I know you're fine and I know you're not going to light the house on fire, but in that moment, people are going to wonder what state of mind you're in, and if you go out there and your dad's got your mom around the throat and you say what's going on and he says, well the dog died and I just feel so sad. Does that make you feel better, the story I'm giving you? No, it is not. You're going to be scared and think he's crazy. I know it's a bigger example than what you did, but you have to remember, and you're a smart enough guy, Kevin, you have to think, how are people perceiving me. Even when you're upset, I know at 13 it's hard to believe, but the universe does not revolve around you and when you're upset, you still have to think, how is it going to look if I do this. I think you just let your emotions get to you. I understand how that is but this is part of why this is an opportunity for growth. [00:28:10]

FATHER: So, if we go in and knock on his door and say Kevin it's time for school. No, I'm not going today. We should walk away and not pursue that?

CLIENT: Well, I don't think you should pursue it 20 times after you ask me the first time, obviously.

THERAPIST: I think there's a contextual question here and if you said that without the dog part of the story, I would have said no, you've got to go to school.

CLIENT: Yeah, and I agree with that too.

THERAPIST: I don't think he should come home because his tummy hurts ever, throw up. Go throw up and then you can go back to class, that's what the rest of us do. The only good reason to be home this year, that I know of, other than being sick, is the dog dies. That's a legitimate reason to be home, but any other time, he's got to go to school.

MOTHER: We agree, we a hundred percent agree with that. He's so defiant that it doesn't always happen. [00:29:14]

THERAPIST: You mean in the non—dog situations? I do recall, this is not an infrequent problem.

MOTHER: Right.

THERAPIST: No, he's got to go to school.

CLIENT: And if he didn't die I would have been — I would have gotten up. My mom wakes me up at six—thirty, then I get up at seven, and then I get ready and I'm perfectly fine at school.

THERAPIST: Right. When you say he's defiant, what do you mean?

MOTHER: Absolutely will not� This morning example has the dog involved, but even if he weren't, if he doesn't want to do something he will not do it no matter what.

THERAPIST: But he is getting to school most of the time, except for the two days that he — or two to three days he hasn't gone.

MOTHER: Well, can you say —

FATHER: I think the issue is the amount of anger that comes out in such a short — it's immediate. There's nothing that grows and grows and then all of a sudden� [00:30:31]

THERAPIST: Is it always right at the moment he's still laying in bed?

FATHER: No.

MOTHER: No. The defiance is just any time that pretty much he's not — things aren't going his way or we're asking him to do something he doesn't want to do. You know, handling frustration is not a good thing with him. Can you think of situations that you know, just —

THERAPIST: Is it better when the medicine is on.

MOTHER: Oh, yeah. Yeah, so usually this happens after, at night maybe, or if he hadn't had his medicine.

CLIENT: You've also got to realize, I was really tired, didn't get much sleep last night. I couldn't go to sleep the whole time. I didn't have the patch on and I was mad, because it was six—thirty in the morning.

THERAPIST: But they're saying that there are other times that aren't dog death related.

CLIENT: Yeah, that's because it's usually in the morning or when my patch is off. [00:31:33]

THERAPIST: And I believe that we are all keeping the patch on correctly at this time, are we not?

CLIENT: Mm—hmm.

THERAPIST: No? People's heads are moving in different directions. You're saying yes you are and your dad is shaking his head.

CLIENT: Well he's never home, that doesn't even make any sense. You're not — you're never —

FATHER: The moment I talk.

THERAPIST: What?

FATHER: The moment I talk.

THERAPIST: Because we need to keep it on as long as we can and not interrupt your sleep.

MOTHER: I've asked that he let me in on when it comes off, that I'm there when that patch comes off, and that's never happened. So I don't know for sure when it comes off, but we can usually kind of tell by attitude or that kind of thing. I did notice, when he was home with the suspension, that he was very distracted, and so we did up that medication. I don't know if I mentioned that last time.

THERAPIST: Oh, I knew we were talking about it. I didn't know if they did or not.

MOTHER: It was quite obvious, so I learned a lot those five days, and we did up it to the 30, but I don't know when it comes off. I think he's been keeping it on lately actually, because he's been coming home and doing his homework. [00:32:45]

THERAPIST: Okay, see that's good. So it's later on. I wish I could know about when you're — the time of day when you're having the most trouble, and the span of time. If you can mark that on a calendar or something, it would really be good.

FATHER: It's usually nine o'clock on.

MOTHER: I don't know how I can't pull an example, because it happened� This has been a better two weeks and honestly, it's been a better two weeks.

FATHER: It's usually in the morning, before the patch goes on, it's usually at night, after the patch comes off.

MOTHER: Yes.

THERAPIST: And we never could get you to let him put it on you before you get up?

CLIENT: Oh, heck no, I would not.

THERAPIST: You are such a pain in the ass, I just want you to know that.

CLIENT: Well, she says the exact same thing.

FATHER: I've come in and kissed you while you're sleeping.

THERAPIST: What is your complaint, Kevin?

CLIENT: I don't get how I'm a pain in the ass when I don't want her to be touching my butt.

THERAPIST: Well, she can touch your back. She can put it higher on your back, man.

CLIENT: Well, whenever I do, then it stretches out.

THERAPIST: I don't want my mom touching my butt either but I don't care if she touches my back. [00:33:47]

CLIENT: It doesn't feel comfortable there.

THERAPIST: Stand up and show me where you're putting it.

CLIENT: I put it right there.

THERAPIST: Gee, that is low. That's below your beltline.

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean but there's more stretch in your back.

THERAPIST: No wonder you're having trouble keeping it on.

CLIENT: Well, we got the KT tape, the kinesiology tape, and it leaves it on there, but when it's that high it stretches out and it bugs me through the day.

THERAPIST: The reason I'm saying you're a pain is because if we could get that thing on you earlier, your morning will go so much better than it does. I see why you don't want to put it on your butt, I didn't realize it was that low.

FATHER: There's some examples of Lucky Charms in the morning.

CLIENT: We've already talked about that.

THERAPIST: He did what?

FATHER: I guess they've talked about it.

MOTHER: I think that was last session.

CLIENT: The Lucky Charms.

THERAPIST: Oh, the Lucky Charms, we talked about those. It just happened. I just wish we could get it on you earlier in the morning. Are you bathing in the evening? [00:34:51]

CLIENT: Most of the time, and then I usually wake up and I take a shower.

MOTHER: Sometimes you do but usually, you bathe at night.

CLIENT: (sighs)

THERAPIST: Some day, when you have a girlfriend, you'll let her put it on your butt, and I will be so happy.

MOTHER: Wait a minute, slow down there.

THERAPIST: Someday, he'll have a girlfriend, maybe in college or something, and then I'll be like, have your girlfriend put it on your butt, and you'll be like no, I don't want her touch around the butt, and I'll be like I don't care. But in this situation, I understand it's just — and you're saying you've tried it higher on your body, where mothers are permitted to touch.

CLIENT: Yeah. That's how we started and I always, every time I bent down to pick something up, it would stretch out and it bugged me, it annoyed me. At the end of the day it would be all crinkly, I mean even with the KT tape, and it wasn't comfortable at all. So, when I started putting it on my rear, it was a lot easier and usually, I can't tell that it's there, but sometimes it stings but it's not really that bad. [00:36:00]

MOTHER: Kind of on your hip.

CLIENT: Ish, yeah.

THERAPIST: Well, that would help, but we can't figure out how to get that done. There's some research even, where they're putting the thing on for people who — for the ADD people who actually get a little tired on it, they're actually having them put the patch on at night before they go to bed. I know that's bizarre.

MOTHER: Huh?

THERAPIST: I was ATA a couple years ago and they were talking about that. We were discussing this very issue and it was for particularly, people who don't get up easily. So, all right, then you think it's about after nine, because that actually makes perfect to me, for the washout period.

FATHER: Yeah, it's — yeah.

THERAPIST: What time do you go nighty—night?

CLIENT: I'm going to bed pretty early, probably around eighty—thirty now.

THERAPIST: You go in your room at eight—thirty and you don't go to bed until eleven?

CLIENT: If I go into bed at nine, I don't get to bed until one. [00:37:06]

THERAPIST: You're not falling asleep until one?

CLIENT: Not usually.

FATHER: It's hard to when you're playing games or texting.

CLIENT: Oh my God. I even notice you downstairs working, constantly, —

THERAPIST: Kevin, dear buddy, why do you have any electronic devices in your room at night?

CLIENT: Because, usually I listen to music.

THERAPIST: That was my radio show this morning, Kevin.

CLIENT: None of the radios come in.

THERAPIST: My radio, you should have listened to my radio this morning. I said that now that it's Christmas and all the little boys and girls in fourth grade are getting their smartphones, they should be taken back at night.

FATHER: We wanted to cover that today.

THERAPIST: Well, how lucky.

FATHER: From last week, where we have control and what's a good app.

THERAPIST: Does he have an iPhone, I can't remember.

CLIENT: Mm—hmm.

THERAPIST: Okay. Yes, Kevin, we're going to have more control over your little phone now.

CLIENT: I got a phone for privacy. [00:38:08]

THERAPIST: Yeah, and you can be super double private until about nine o'clock at night. Do I not totally defend your privacy until — remember this conversation? Where I said if you are handling it correctly, then I will defend your privacy a lot. You can text all sorts of cute things to girls but you can't do that at ten o'clock and ten—thirty. The research on this is as clear as it can be. I just posted it on my Facebook today. Just today, I put up an article about sleep deprived teenagers, and guess what the number one reason is they're sleep deprived? Oh guess, Kevin, do please. Screen time. When do you get done with study time?

CLIENT: I usually do it for about an hour and 20 minutes, and then I get my phone back and then I start working on some more homework. [00:39:09]

THERAPIST: You work on homework after study time?

CLIENT: Oh yeah, she's just like, "Kevin, you can't be done after an hour and 20 minutes." And then she — but then I have to agree.

THERAPIST: You're supposed to be done in an hour hopefully.

CLIENT: Yeah. Hear that?

MOTHER: Kevin, you need to —

THERAPIST: How can you not get done in an hour and 20 minutes? You should be done in 70 minutes.

CLIENT: Makeup work and stuff like that.

THERAPIST: Why do you have makeup work, because you stayed home?

CLIENT: It was part of the suspension, Spanish was going way too fast, it was hard for me, I was caught up on Spanish. Then, while I was working on Spanish, I was getting caught up in other assignments and then I just went crazy. She would say — the Spanish teacher would say half the things in Spanish, and like she'd say a sentence, she's explain what one word was in there but she wouldn't tell us what the word was until we got finished with the lesson.

THERAPIST: Okay, so what's your — you were getting ready to say something, what?

MOTHER: This quarter has been — you know, how it started out, with all the Fs and stuff, and he's having to work himself back from that, and so never completely got caught up until yesterday, and now he's gone again today. So he got caught up in everything yesterday.

THERAPIST: Well let's hope next semester, we can keep it to 70 minutes, or 80. You're in eighth grade? [00:40:29]

CLIENT: Mm—hmm.

THERAPIST: Because he just can't do more than that.

MOTHER: I'm not sure why he's saying that I'm making him do more, because that's actually not, in my experience.

CLIENT: It seems like you're so full of crap when you come over here.

MOTHER: So, he comes home, he has snacks, all that kind of stuff, then around four—thirty is when he's supposed to start.

THERAPIST: Is that right?

MOTHER: He's supposed to give me his phone, sometimes it doesn't work like this, like clockwork, but sometimes it does.

CLIENT: I always give you my phone.

MOTHER: Then he gets down around six, and then he'll come down and he'll say, I'm going to go up and work more on Spanish, and when he does that, I allow him to have his phone back, because he's already done his —

THERAPIST: He's done the time, absolutely.

MOTHER: But if he's going to do extra, I'm like you can have your phone.

THERAPIST: It's on him.

MOTHER: But it's suggestion, not my suggestion, that you go up and you do extra. Now, he's done a lot of —

THERAPIST: The fact she's giving you the phone does prove the point she's making.

CLIENT: Yeah, but I didn't think the agreement was an hour and 20 minutes without the phone. I thought it was an hour and 20 minutes, well yeah, obviously without the phone, but I didn't think —

THERAPIST: Help me Kevin, you're confusing me. What? [00:41:38]

CLIENT: An hour and 20 minutes without the phone and then this is how it used to work. I mean, she used to tell me to go up, and you need to work a little bit more, and an hour and 20 minutes.

THERAPIST: Kevin, you hate it when they go back in time and say remember how Kevin used to be. So, in the current reality, you're supposed to do — I don't think it's — it's not 120 minutes is it, it's 80 isn't it?

MOTHER: It's 80, 80 minutes.

THERAPIST: So you do 80 minutes. I don't want you to have to do more than you can do. Eighty is what you can do, and then it's your phone and if you're like mom, I just love Spanish so much, I'm going to study the rest of the evening. No one is stopping you Kevin, but you can have the phone, and then that's what I'm trying to figure out, your time span with the phone. So you get done at six, right, roughly?

MOTHER: Right.

THERAPIST: And then you have the phone for what, three hours?

FATHER: He's got it all night.

CLIENT: Oh my God, dad.

THERAPIST: Well, there's the problem. Isn't it true, you have it all night?

CLIENT: I usually get off of it and you came into my room and you said, "You need to be off by ten." You said that the other night.

THERAPIST: Okay but Kevin, why can't you just give him the phone back at whatever time we decide tonight, just give it to him. [00:42:44]

CLIENT: Because I listen to music and my radio doesn't come in. There's commercials on the radio and each commercial is around 20 minutes for the radio station that comes in.

THERAPIST: Well that's true.

CLIENT: And when I listen to Pandora or iTunes radio, it's nonstop.

THERAPIST: All right, that is a very good argument, because I use my phone similarly to that.

CLIENT: Mm—hmm.

THERAPIST: I have it monitor my sleep.

CLIENT: I don't know many teachers that use the radio.

THERAPIST: So you're fine with him going ahead and having it shut itself off for — oh, wait a minute, that's going to mess up� No, you could — hmm, I'm confused. Is Pandora an application, an app?