TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi. Come on in. (pause) Hi.

CLIENT: Hi.

THERAPIST: How are you?

CLIENT: Good. I actually am doing pretty well this week. I had a pretty good week. I started just getting outside more and kind of trying to exercise a bit more. Which I found has helped me a lot mentally every day. So I have almost been trying to do something every day when I can kind of, you know, fit it in or try different ways to fit that in. And I found that mentally that has actually really helped me a lot this week. [00:01:08]

My mind feels clearer and I just feel more optimistic, almost because of that, I think. (laughs) And then sort of if I notice that I am headed towards a low I have been trying to be more reflective of that. So yesterday (laughs) I was really, really tired. So I felt myself headed towards a lower, kind of low energy point and tried to stop any negative thoughts.

So if I was, you know, feeling a little negative because I was feeling so low energy, I was trying to think of good things that happened that day or turn it around a little bit. So those are two different things I tried this week. And, I mean, it wasn’t perfect but I felt like they helped. [00:02:22]

THERAPIST: Uh huh. Is there association between being low energy and thinking negatively?

CLIENT: There is, actually, for me. Like if I am really tired and just kind of want to sit on my couch. It is almost when I am bored is when the negative thinking actually happens for me I have noticed. Because a lot of times if I don’t have a lot of stuff planned for the weekend and there is kind of periods of down time, that is when I have noticed I kind of get into these downward spirals of like a little bit of the depression and stuff like that.

And that is actually kind of associated, for me, with being tired or down time for some reason. So, I mean, if I am low energy and really tired that is going to happen. (laughs) But it is just sort of, I think, knowing that that could lead to the negative thoughts. [00:03:25]

THERAPIST: Mm hm. Is it hard for you when you have time that is not structured?

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: Tell me about it.

CLIENT: I think it has a lot to do with control. Like this morning before I left the house I made a list of things that I wanted to accomplish today when I got home. And I need to be able to, you know, cross everything off the list and feel like I got all of this stuff done. So it is actually really hard for me to just sit and be. And if I am reading I am fine. So I actually have tried to start reading more.

But if it something like just sitting and watching TV, something kind of passive, I have a really hard time doing something like that for very long without feeling kind of restless, bored. That often can lead to overeating or eating for, you know, reason out of boredom. And then that kind of also leads (laughs) to the negative thinking. [00:04:37]

So I have a very hard time dealing with unstructured time. Like I always need to give myself something to do, have a task or be busy.

THERAPIST: Do you feel like, is it a restlessness? Do you feel kind of empty and lonely?

CLIENT: Um. Yeah, I guess more of a restlessness. I am okay with being alone but I have to be doing something, I guess. So I am fine if I am on my own but I guess I only have these kind of restless thoughts. If I am not doing anything it is hard. It is hard to explain but I need to feel in control and accomplished. And if I am just not doing anything I feel like, you know, a waste. [00:05:41]

It is a waste of time or I need to be accomplishing something that I can be proud of, to see some kind of product. So, for example, even reading a book you finish the book. There is a product. Or cleaning the house, you can see that the house is clean at the end. Or cooking or doing laundry there is a product at the end.

Whereas just sitting or just watching TV there is no end result. There is no product. You can’t see anything from time spent that way. And so I think that is why I sort of start having these, you know, bored and negative thoughts because I don’t think I should just be sitting around. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Have you always been like that?

CLIENT: I think so. I have tried to think back because I do remember as a kid I did spend a lot of time kind of on my own. But I was always reading a lot. So I think it was probably, you know, I was sort of doing that kind of stuff. I never really, I guess, watched a lot of TV or anything. [00:06:58]

But I can remember having almost like fits as a kid, of being really, really, really restless. Almost where I would have so much energy that I would just scream and kind of have almost an outburst as a kid. So I think I have always needed to be doing something. Like even in, you know, when I was in college I would always structure my time. And it is something about having that control, though, that makes me feel really good.

And when I feel like I don’t have the control or my time isn’t structured or I didn’t accomplish everything, that is when I feel bad. Which is why I think filling the time with some of the working out too, I think that is almost like, well, I accomplished that today and that is great and that makes today even better. And I mean in addition to endorphins and all of that.

I think that is part of it too is feeling like I did another good thing. I accomplished this, I accomplished that. I am in control. Like it is that sort of a feeling. [00:08:10]

THERAPIST: Versus what? Versus being out of control?

CLIENT: Yeah, or just useless, I think, more. Like I guess out of control. So out of control to me sort of means not accomplishing anything. It is not, you know, it is a little different. It is not like, you know, total chaos but it means not accomplishing anything or not doing anything with an end result.

So, you know, if I sat around instead of cleaning the house I would view that as very negative when I know that there is something else that I view as needing to get done. So that would sort of be out of control to me. (sigh) Yeah, I mean, if I haven’t I really, anything dirty in the house or not Like if I haven’t vacuumed in a few days or something, that I also view as out of control. [00:09:29]

I am not totally obsessive but a little bit obsessive. I like to see things as clean because it upsets me if I feel like I haven’t had that end result of cleaning. So if I do laundry and do the dishes or something I feel very satisfied with seeing that end structured result. Whereas, if I, you know, see there is a lot of [hair from my jog] (ph) or something, I feel like I need to do that later. I need to put that on my list.

And I have to make sure that I get that done because if I don’t it is going to continue to bother me. I am not going to feel accomplished until I have done that or kept up with it.

THERAPIST: Does it make you feel more valuable? Is that part of it?

CLIENT: Probably. I think that is part of it because I think to me, yeah, I need to be able to keep my house clean, keep up the school work, also read extracurricular stuff, do x, y and z. And that makes me feel better as a person. Or I worked out so I am more valuable, I am a better person today because I did that. [00:10:50]

So it is more like doing all of these things that I consider to make you a good person, I guess. Or I would say almost more successful, maybe, would be a better word instead of valuable. It is like what I view as success. So I view, you know, having a structure where you are able to do it all and get everything done and fit in your work out and cook dinner and clean and read and do. You know, that is success.

And then not doing anything with your time, or not having your house be clean, or procrastinating on your work and not working out. That is failure. (pause)

THERAPIST: This is not all of it. It is more complicated than this. But it almost seems like kind of a focus that will get you away from what you are feeling. I know that it produces a kind of feeling too. [00:11:59]

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: So that is not quite it.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But it seems like it is kind of a focus on something outside of yourself, outside of what is going on inside.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, in a way I can see that. I mean, but like you were saying it also produces this good, really positive feeling where it kind of makes me feel more whole, I guess. From being able to do all of these different things. And I also, I self-identify with doing well in school or being a reader or walking outside.

Like there are different ways that I self-identify. And so I think sort of in doing all these thing, like, “See like, oh, I am fulfilling my purpose.” So I think I self-identify with being a doer. Whereas, just sitting around or feeling sorry for myself, I don’t want to be that person. So that is what creates kind of these negative feelings. [00:13:24]

But, I mean, it is hard for me to just be. Like if I am in yoga or something I am kind of restless when you have to sit. (laughs) But then I can get into it and zone out but it take me a while. And I have sort of the restless kind of thinking. (pause) But, I mean, I could see how it would take away a little bit from what I am feeling and not let me process.

But I think I associate so much of how I am feeling with the ability to do or to not do these things that it is hard to separate the two, I think. (pause)

THERAPIST: Sometimes I ask questions and sometimes I sort of just want to see where your mind goes.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Which is why I am -

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: I am not intentionally trying to (cross talking at 00:14:36).

CLIENT: Yeah. Okay.

THERAPIST: But, yeah, sometimes I just like to sort of see what emerges and sort of work with that.

CLIENT: Yeah. No, that makes sense because I am able to kind of think things through on my own, I think. But, like I said, my mind kind of races. (laughs) So yeah, I pretty much feel like I am thinking or my mind is racing to different places all the time. It is really hard for me to still my mind or just be. Which is why doing a passive activity is really hard for me.

Or even when I am driving I have to listen to a podcast or listen to talk radio or something. (laughs) I have a really hard time just listening to music and zoning out. I have to have that stimulation all the time. (pause) [00:15:41]

THERAPIST: I started thinking about therapy as a passive activity. Like where you just are and see what happens or what emerges.

CLIENT: It is hard. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Yeah. It is certainly not structured. I mean there is a structure to this for sure but then within the space there is not a lot of structure.

CLIENT: It is hard. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like I have a really hard time if I am out with other people that aren’t very extroverted. And if there is silence it is really, really, really hard for me because it is hard for me to just sit there. Because the whole time, if I am with the other person, I am thinking, “Why is so and so being quiet? Are they being quiet because they didn’t like what I just said? Maybe I should say something else.”

And then I just start to kind of blabber on. Which is why it is really hard for me. Like I don’t really have any friends that are really introverted or anything because it is so uncomfortable for me to be in that, a silent space or to just be. It is not, yeah, it is not an easy feeling for me. [00:17:02]

THERAPIST: So this will be an interesting exercise.

CLIENT: (laughs) Yes. Yeah. (pause) Yeah because I think that I know a lot of people use meditation and stuff as a really good mindfulness technique. And I have always been afraid to try it because I don’t know how to take to something like that. And I know that you have to practice. (laughs) But, yeah, it is just really, really I think difficult for me to feel happy or any sense of satisfaction if I am not actively thinking or engaging with something. (pause) [00:18:19]

THERAPIST: Well you could be actively engaging, just not with other people. You could be actively engaging with you mind, I guess. It is sort of a funny way to put it.

CLIENT: Yeah. That is true. That is a different way of thinking. Well, I mean, so I feel like (pause) Yeah, that is true. I guess I am always Because I was trying to think when I am reading maybe I am kind of actively engaging with my own mind but there is still some kind of a stimulation there. I am not alone.

But I wonder if that I mean, so I think a little bit of when I was feeling that low, low energy time and tried to reflect on it and get myself out of it, I guess that might be a little bit of me in trying to engage with myself. And try to talk myself out of feeling a low that I know is kind of for no good reason. [00:19:39]

Like there wasn’t anything that happened to me to make me feel low. It was just because I was kind of tired and kind of restless. And, you know, I was too tired to do work and I was too tired to do anything. So I think me trying to reflect on, “Why am I feeling this way? Nothing bad happened. I actually had pretty good day and I am just tired.” It was a good technique.

But definitely when I was doing that it was something I am not used to doing. And it almost made me wonder too if journaling would be good for me as a way of self-reflection because then I am still kind of doing something. (laughs) But it might help me to pick out more of the positive things that are happening during my day. [00:20:40]

Because that is what So that is what I sort of struggle to do is to rationalize the situation. Because often I will just see the negative and not see the positive and focus on the negative so much that it sort of takes over. So I might have had a great day but then I got stuck in traffic and I got home late and I was tired.

And so that was what I was focusing on instead of focusing on the other really good or really positive things that happened in the day. And often there are so many but you have this one negative and you just kind of just drill down on it. So I have wondered if some kind of, almost a self-reflection at the end of the day would be helpful to me.

Because other than the weekends that is when I tend to get more negative or be more down, if I got stuck in traffic or something happened. Or I don’t feel like I accomplished everything I should have with that day. I wonder if trying to even meditate or do something reflective at the end of the day would help to turn my thinking when it gets like that. [00:22:10]

Or even almost make it into some sort of a practice where your thinking doesn’t even drift so negatively anymore because you are so used to reflecting on the good. I don’t know. It is something I have thought about doing but haven’t really done it.

THERAPIST: Are the evenings the time where you spend with your boyfriend?

CLIENT: Yeah. Like we will usually have dinner together or something and that is really good. But a lot of times he also needs a little He is very introverted or more introverted than I am. So he needs time after work, like a period of time, just to wind down and kind of, you know, be alone. Which he is totally okay with.

And so it is during those period where I am by myself and we are not, you know, having dinner together and talking about the day and stuff like that. It is those periods where I am on my own that sometimes I can have this negative thinking or these lows. Because I just feel really restless. [00:23:20]

And it is the same thing on the weekend. We will do some stuff together but we are not doing activities and things together the whole time. And so it is the periods where, you know, he is kind of doing his own thing and I am doing my own thing where I get into these weird thought patterns.

So it is not really when we are together. It is when I just have down time on my own. And I can’t deal with having a lot of that. (pause) Whereas, I think, you know, he can and actually needs that restorative time. And so, yeah, it is hard for me to just not have different schedules and not (ph) And I probably do need that restorative time a little bit but it is hard for me to do.

Which is why I guess I tried to start reading more and tried to start doing other things where I felt like I was accomplishing something or making these lists for myself, which I tend to do more lately. [00:24:43]

THERAPIST: More so than you used to?

CLIENT: Yeah. I would say maybe in the past year, though, I started doing them. Like I didn’t really used to make lists. But I will, you know, make a list of everything that has to be done and I have to cross everything out. And then if I have, like a lot of times if I have down time too I like to take the time to plan. So I will plan out, you know, I will do meal planning or I will plan out when I am going to do different chores or when I do different work.

Like I have to take the time to make this schedule and these lists for myself and then I feel like, you know, that is accomplished and structured. And I have the list waiting and I am going to do this and this and that. And it is going to be a really great day because here is all the stuff I am going to be able to do. (pause) [00:25:45]

So I wish that I didn’t have to make them but for some reason (laughs) they make me feel, it is this sense of accomplishment of crossing something off that feels really, really good. And sort of staying ahead of the game even with school stuff and not procrastinating. And a lot of times now I actually am, on my down time I will do even extra stuff for school.

Like I don’t, you know, I try not to let myself watch TV anymore. And so I will do extra school work or watch some BBC video for school. Or just, you know, I always have to spend my time doing these extra things because I think that it is going to make me sort of ahead of everybody else in the class. Like I always have to be the best at everything, I think. [00:26:54]

THERAPIST: Or else?

CLIENT: (laughs) Or else, I mean So I have tried to think about how I will react if I get a grade that isn’t an “A” on an exam or something. Because I know that I just punish myself really badly for things like that. So I am sure it will maybe happen this semester (laughs) because I am taking really hard classes. But I think I just feel like a failure.

Like to me a “B” is a failure. Or even an “A minus” is a failure and I am not successful and I am not good at something and I need to work harder. And why didn’t I study more? Or, why didn’t I do this? So there is definitely a lot of punishment (laughs) or just really negative self-thought. So, yeah, even with the I didn’t work out today or I didn’t clean, or I didn’t do, you know, whatever it is it is sort of like I am a failure for today because I didn’t do all of those things. [00:28:23]

And that is the thing that I am trying to flip around but it is really hard. So actually one of my friends from school got a “B+” on something and she was really upset. And so I tried to think how would I want to think to get myself out of the negative thinking because she was doing, you know, something similar to what I would probably do. (laughs)

And so I said to her, “Well, you still did really well compared to everyone else.” But then there is that comparison too. And then I said, “You still got a (inaudible at 00:29:01). Like it is obvious that you understand this and it was a hard exam.” And I think I would want to be able to talk myself out of negative thinking with saying those things.

And I am aware that the day comes that I get something other than an “A” it is going to be really, really, really hard on me because so much of my self-worth is being good and having to almost be perfect. And, yeah, I think it is just it is really hard for me to deal with anything that I consider to be, not necessarily a failure, but unsuccessful.

So, for example, I took an organic chemistry exam and knew that the last question that I had had some trouble on it. And so I decided that I failed the exam but I actually got a 94. So it is that one thing that you know you didn’t do right and that is failure, I thought that I failed the whole exam. So to me that was failure. [00:30:20]

So it is almost changing, I guess, my view of what failure is. Because certainly, you know, getting a “B” is not failure. Not cleaning your house every week or having dirt or something isn’t failure. And not being able to cook dinner one night because you are tired isn’t failure. But sometimes I see it that way and I want to change my opinion of that.

So like last night I was too tired to cook dinner but I actually tried to just let it go and say, “It is okay. I am too tired to do laundry. I am too tired to some of the cleaning I wanted to. And I am really too tired to cook. I had exams, I had all this stuff and it is okay.” But then I found myself so needing the sense of accomplishment at the end of the day so I folded laundry and cleaned while I am doing other stuff because I needed to have that some sort of sense of accomplishment with what I was doing with my time at home. [00:31:39]

So in a way I was, you know, trying not to feel guilty but I still needed to that stuff at the end of the day to try to feel like, “Okay, everything is in order so it is okay that I didn’t cook.” I needed, I really needed to feel that.

THERAPIST: I have a couple of thoughts that came to my mind. I mean one way of thinking about sort of needing to have order is that there is something that feels not ordered inside.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: You know, and so it is a way of It is kind of an externalization, to use a kind of clunky word for -

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: like of something that is going on inside that can’t be managed.

CLIENT: Mm. Mm hm.

THERAPIST: And I was thinking about that and I was thinking also about, you know, people have experiences and those experiences feel very true. They may not quite fit the situation but there is some truth to it.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: The idea that, you know, there is this feeling you have of being a failure.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: And worrying about being a failure and needing to compensate for it.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: And it gets sort of played out in all these different ways in your life.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: But there is some truth to it inside. There is something maybe deeper about this feeling or fear that is maybe old and maybe has a history to it. And so I was thinking about that. [00:32:51]

CLIENT: Oh, I mean, there definitely could be, there definitely is a history of it, I think. And it absolutely could be from stuff way in the past. Because, I mean, as a kid I was always considered to be smart until in fourth grade there was some exam that we all had to take to be in some special program where you have to leave school. And I didn’t do well on that exam and so then I couldn’t be in that gifted group.

Or in ninth grade the only AP class I didn’t class was science because they thought that I wasn’t good at that. But now I am trying to prove and, you know, and I am interested in the classes I am taking, but I am also trying to prove I am good at science. You, like ninth grade teacher told me I wasn’t but actually I really am. [00:33:54]

And so there is a lot of stuff where because, you know, kids made fun of me because of my weight and the way I looked or my glasses and all this different stuff, school was like it. But I wasn’t even good enough at that. So there is that way of, okay, well, my looks aren’t good enough or my weight isn’t good enough. School or intellect is all that I have and if I am not good at that then what am I?

So I think, I mean, all of that stuff definitely goes way back because, you know, I would react to not getting a certain award or not being chosen for something very negatively. Because a lot of the praise that I got from my parents was in those areas. Like excelling with music or school because I was not, I wasn’t very good at sports or anything. So that was kind of it and those were the areas that I needed to be good at and I needed that praise. [00:35:09]

But somehow I always kept trying and I wasn’t good enough with that. And so then I can remember that also kind of going the other way and saying, “Well, I am not going to be good at school so I am going to try to be popular.” So I can remember as a freshman in high school I kind of stopped talking because I thought, “Well, I am being really out there and outgoing and I am saying the wrong thing. And that is not leading me to be popular because I am always saying the wrong thing. And so maybe if I don’t talk then I can be popular because certainly I am not good enough at school to just have that.”

I need to have, you know, this other stuff too. So, I mean, there was always a lot of self-identification with, I have to have something, be the best at something and I am not the best at anything. And I don’t know what to do because I have to pick something. I have to pick who I am going to be or what I am going to be good at because I need people to recognize me as this one thing or fit into this one box because I need them to be praising me for that. [00:36:38]

So a lot of times now people will say to me, you know, “You do it all. I don’t know how you do it all. You are always helping other people. You are always doing that.” And that almost fuels it more when people So now people are giving you praise for it so then you say, “Well, that is who I am. I have to be really, really good at it.” So, I mean, I think that is where a lot of it comes from. Like it definitely goes way back.

THERAPIST: I am sorry. I didn’t mean to interrupt.

CLIENT: No I am just saying, I mean, I just always needed to self-identify as something and whatever it is I have to be really good at it.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. Well it made me think about when you use the word “recognize.” I started thinking about, you know, how we have begun to sort of talk about your relationship with your Mom.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: And how there was a failure of recognition. That what she saw you as is just an extension of her.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: And not recognizing you in your own right. [00:37:44]

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: And so here you are trying to create an identify for yourself that is uniquely yours but that has some drawbacks to it in terms of the toll it takes on you. (laughs)

CLIENT: (laughs) Yeah.

THERAPIST: But it is sort of a way of creating an identity. And in lieu of not having sort of that kind of recognition maybe of you as sort of your own person.

CLIENT: That makes sense. Because I mean, so I always think I have tried to strive to figure out who I am and what I actually enjoy and, you know. And so actually, I mean, for me the first sort of, or what I thought was the first sort of accomplishment in terms of going back to maybe something I enjoyed or who I was, was overcoming the fear of studying science.

Because I was actually really, it took me a while to decide to make a career change because I knew I had to take science classes and I had been told I was bad at science. And so for me almost going back to who I was as a kid before I was told that I was bad at it was a sense of accomplishment because it was [00:39:00]

I think what I have been trying to do is figure out how much of who I am today is because of societal pressures or society telling me who I should be and me trying to go with it. And how much of it is what I actually enjoy and what I love and what I thrive doing. And so a lot of my initial (inaudible at 00:39:27) I think, were because of things that society, in a way, had told me I was good at.

Like people had always told me I was very good with, you know, with history and you are good with helping other people. And so I studied political science and international peace studies because people told me that was what I was good at. But it wasn’t actually what I really, truly enjoyed. Do you know what I mean?

It was more like I was doing it and fulfilled in a way because other people told me that that was the role that I should take. And so what I am constantly trying to do is sort of figure out, what do I actually, truly, truly enjoy? And not just enjoy because I saw someone do it on TV or someone told me that was what, you know, what I should be doing. And it is this constant really difficult struggle. [00:40:31]

And I think with the science stuff it is like I really, really do truly, truly enjoy it. And it is not like a fake enjoyment. I mean part of the enjoyment might be from doing well but it is not a fake enjoyment because other people told me that I should do that. It is something that really does spark this intellectual curiosity in that, you know, I can really get lost in that. I actually do enjoy.

And for me that is the first thing that I have been able to reconcile. Because I feel like there have been these external influences for so long that it is really difficult to figure out who I am or what I actually like to do.

THERAPIST: That makes a lot of sense.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: I mean what you describe I mean there is a lot of ways in which what you were describing with your Mom would sort of have negative impact on you. And I am sure there is a lot good in your relationship too, so I appreciate that. [00:41:38]

CLIENT: Yep.

THERAPIST: No relationship is all bad.

CLIENT: Right. (laughs)

THERAPIST: But one of the problems in what you described is not really, A, not feeling someone is curious about who you are and then also just this confusion.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Are you just, you know, to what extent are you being You know, is an image being, or a set of who you are is being imposed on you.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: And to what extent is it really a reflection of who you are.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And it is confusing.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean and a big example of that too would be religion because that has been very confusing for me. Because my Mom made me teach religion classes to kids and do all this stuff at church and just imposed this whole thing on me that I just followed because that is what I was told to do. And I have been, part of me feels like this guilt about not wanting to be Catholic or follow the same religion as her, and part of me feels this total confusion over the whole issue. [00:42:56]

And when I go home I still go to church with her because I don’t want to upset her. And, you know, I think that is just one. There is a lot of different areas but that is just one area where it is really, really evident because I have been so confused about, well, I know that I don’t really believe in all the same stuff as her. But I don’t even know what I believe in because you have been so indoctrinated with something or told this is what you should do or guilted into it, that it is really hard to come out with your own feelings or your own set of beliefs.

And there is a lot of, you know, exploration and stuff. But it is really difficult when someone told you for like 21 or 22 years, really like, “This is what you have to do and there is no other option and this who you need to be,” it is really hard to reflect back on those years and reflect on what is going on now and try to identify what is true about what you believe or who you are. [00:44:05]

THERAPIST: I can totally see that.

CLIENT: Mm hm. Yeah, so. I mean that is one area where I have really been able to identify what is going on and I still feel really confused. But I can see what has been going on. But I think that subconsciously it has happened in every area of my life, really. And it is really hard to figure out what you want or who you are or what you enjoy and believe when there have been so many years, and really formative years that were spent just being told, you know, “You are this and you should do this and you are good at this.” (pause) Yeah. (laughs) [00:45:07]

And I think a lot of, that is where a lot of my guilt comes in because breaking the mold or doing something different. Like when I decided to change careers and go back to school there was so much guilt. And it was really hard to deal with. Like there was so much negativity from my family.

And now And I actually had talked to them about it. And I said, you know, “I don’t appreciate this. This is what I have decided to do and here is why I am going to do it. And I don’t appreciate you being so negative because it is not going to change anything.”

THERAPIST: Why were they negative about your career change?

CLIENT: Because I was leaving a job where I was making a lot of money but I was really unhappy. And they felt that that was a bad decision because I was going into a field where I wouldn’t make a lot of money and going to be spending a few years not making any money. And so they thought that was a very bad decision. [00:46:21]

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: And so what I tried to stress was, for me, being happy and fulfilled means so much more. And I just need to do this now and it is really important to me. And it took a long time for me to get them on board. And there was other people that were really negative towards me about it too. Like the president of the college I went to said, “Why don’t you just become a pharmacist. They make more money. Why are you?” And he is a priest. (inaudible at 00:46:54) (laughs) You know?

So there is so much judgment and so much negativity. And that was really hard to overcome. And so it is like as you continue to make all these changes there is always going to be that judgment and negativity. I mean especially from my family but from everywhere really.

THERAPIST: We are going to need to stop for today.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: But let’s pick this up next week.

CLIENT: Okay. Definitely.

THERAPIST: Did my assistant, I want to make sure, did she send you anything? Statements or anything?

CLIENT: No. That is what I was going to ask you because I think there is a form I need to fill out for Blue Cross.

THERAPIST: Right. So you should, what you will get from her is just sort of a co-pay statement.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Yeah. So usually at the end of the month people pay me. You know, like we just do monthly invoices.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: So you will get a co-pay statement and exactly, she will give you a statement to submit to your insurance.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: And I think it is on their website there is a form to fill out. You have to fill out very little of it. Almost all of it is on the statement. Like you just have to fill out I think your member ID and your name and your address.

CLIENT: Oh. Okay.

THERAPIST: And then everything, you just attach to the statement.

CLIENT: Just attach everything and send it in to them.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Okay. Great.

CLIENT: That makes sense.

THERAPIST: Okay. Great. So I will see you next week.

CLIENT: Thank you. Okay.

THERAPIST: Okay. Take care.

CLIENT: You too.

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