TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: I'm going to get keys made in the next few days and just leave them.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Yeah, exactly. So, but, until then, like, yeah, so anyway. I have a scheduling question for you. I assume that after my class is over in like, I forget, six or seven weeks or something that you would prefer our old 5:15 time on Thursdays rather than the 8:30 time in the morning, but it's up to you. You can have either one.

CLIENT: I don't know. I really liked doing the morning last week. We'll see if I can keep up with the getting out the door on time.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: So, can I leave that undecided for now?

THERAPIST: Absolutely.

CLIENT: Okay, great. Yeah. The retreat was really good and I got back. This morning it was back to the same old, same old. I couldn't tear myself away from the computer to get to work. Couldn't tear myself away from social media to do work at work. Like, I was hoping that the reset would, I don't know, help me find some motivation and be better in some way and it didn't and that's a little frustrating. [00:01:45]

And I'm also getting very frustrated with the situation with the physical space of our apartment. I think I've mentioned this before. There is just so much clutter and I try to battle it, but Dave just isn't there for me. Like, in the beginning of December, like the first week of December, I told him I really wanted to do a serious clean out of the study and get some new furniture for the study over Christmas break. Would he help me? He said yes. I said this is really important to me. Will you help me with this? He said yes. I said okay, let's block out some time and we put time on the calendar for Christmas break.

When that time rolled around, I said okay, come help me clean. Oh, I'll be there in five minutes. I just want to read one more thing on the Internet. Then, you know, 45 minutes later he'd come in and do ten minutes worth of work and I need a break now. I'm really tired and he'd go fuck around on the Internet some more. [00:02:40]

And it's just, it has become clear to me that the clutter is not a problem for him and cleaning it is not a priority for him. Like, my options are either to deal with it by myself or continue to nag him and get really frustrated and upset and kind of feel disrespected by this. I don't know. That's very upsetting to me. And then Dave talked me out of shopping for new furniture because we're planning on getting a new apartment in the summer anyway because yes, the commute is just, it's killing me.

THERAPIST: For real.

CLIENT: So, you know, his argument was we're planning on moving in six months, so why buy furniture now? Why not wait until we see what the new space looks like and buy furniture for that space? Which I guess there is some logic to it, but you should have brought that up, you know, weeks earlier when we were negotiating rather than when I had keys in hand. It's like okay; let's go to the furniture store now. [00:03:40]

THERAPIST: Yeah, well, it doesn't sound so much like an excuse if he didn't have actually had some, a little logic to it. Yeah.

CLIENT: But, you know, one of the things that was really wonderful for me about the retreat, I mean there were many wonderful things, but one of them was, you know, the monestary is a house where, you know, there are four monks who live there and then there's a bunch of vitrines. It's a house. It looks like an 18th century farm house because it is and it hasn't really been retro filled much. But, it's so clean and so tidy and there's not just piles of shit everywhere, and there's furniture. Like, there's not just piles of stuff stacked in the corner because there's no shelving to put it on. Like there are shelves. Things are put away. Things are orderly. It was just so nice not to be constantly tripping over shit and I really want that. Dave is just fighting me tooth and nail on it and it's really frustrating I don't know what to do other than like to suck it up and do the decluttering and the furniture myself and tell him if you don't want to participate, you don't get to complain about how I set things up, which, I don't know. I don't want to have to do it by myself, but I might have to. Like, is it fair and reasonable to say if you don't want to help with the organizing the stuff and buying the furniture then you don't get to complain about what furniture I buy or what organization scheme I choose? Like, obviously I wouldn't throw anything of his away. [00:05:15]

THERAPIST: Right. I guess I couldn't say what's reasonable in your particular marriage, but that doesn't sound off the wall to me.

CLIENT: Like, it's not like a red flag, you know, that's something only something horrible abusers do.

THERAPIST: No, not at all. You know, I mean it's an organization scheme. No, it doesn't involve throwing his stuff in the trash. Like, you know, finding furniture he somehow can't use or something. I mean again, like, kind of have enough to be exactly fair or what. It certainly sounds plausible.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean most of the time I think I'm reasonable for me to be irritated about and what is not. Like the, the piles of tools that he keeps buying and leaves piled in front of the bookcase in the living room because there's no shelving to put it on. [00:06:25]

THERAPIST: So, like drills, hammers?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Dremel tools and things like that?

CLIENT: Yeah. Not big tools. Like, all small hand tools. Like nothing huge, but still.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Like, they're in this box in front of the bookshelf because he refuses to buy fucking shelving to put things away in. Like, I feel like that's reasonable for me to be irritated about because that is a shared space, but like, god, his closet. Like, half of his clothes are just piled in a pile the floor in his closet and he's got clean clothes and dirty clothes mixed in and they aren't folded and are they are wrinkled I kind of feel like that's not my place to complain about because that's his closet and I don't use that space.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like it drives me crazy and I hate looking at it. I tell him that, you know, he can't have it falling out of the closet. You should have the door closed and latched so I don't have to see it.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Like, I keep being tempted to go in there and, like, sort his clothes and fold them and like put them away and hang them up and iron them and wash the dirty ones and that's really, I don't see how that would lead anywhere good. [00:07:30]

THERAPIST: Because you'd be resentful as all hell for having done it?

CLIENT: Yes. And he would be resentful at me for having messed with his stuff besides the implied judgment.

THERAPIST: I see. Yeah, I mean, for the most part I could imagine some people would be like okay, thanks, that's great, but other people would be like leave my shit alone.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: He's more like that sort of thing?

CLIENT: Yeah. Like, also, he cross dresses. He's really touchy about me messing with his women's clothing. Like, he's, I think he's still somewhat a little bit ashamed about it, even though he has talked to me about it. And like, I've been encouraging. Like, I think he doesn't like for me to know how much women's clothing he has.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: Or like touch it or having anything to do with it. Like, that's just, but then he doesn't keep it segregated from his street clothes and it's all just one big horrible pile falling out of his closet. So, like that's obviously something where I shouldn't say anything or do anything about.

The living room is one obviously where I do have a right, but there's just all of these cases in between where it's not as clear cut and it's just super frustrating. Part of me wants to say, you know, in our next apartment we should get a three bedroom apartment and have two studies. Then like everything that belongs to him can be in his study and I don't have to deal with his shit. [00:09:05]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: My stuff can be in my study and he doesn't have to deal with my need for dozens of cabinets and drawers and probably far more organizational furniture than is actually necessary.

THERAPIST: You would not be the first couple to do something like that. I'm pretty sure.

CLIENT: Yeah. I'm, I'm sure.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But, like, it's just I keep telling myself we're moving in six months in to a new apartment. This isn't a big deal. But it's so...

THERAPIST: Maybe it is.

CLIENT: It's so frustrating.

THERAPIST: I don't know the other thing, the practical thing is I would imagine it's possible to buy like cheap shelving and drawers.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know, like not necessarily the stuff you're going to have forever, the nicer stuff, but like you could some Ikea shelves or something like that. You know, I don't know, but I would guess it's not that much.

CLIENT: We have a huge set of Ikea shelves in the bedroom that we assigned to him for his stuff. Like, it's got, it's got 25 kind of square cubby units. I reserved four of them for bed linens and towels, but he has the rest and his stuff is just spilling out if it. He has so much crap and it's not organized. It's not, the clothes aren't folded and it's always falling out of the cubbies and like I really don't want that in the bedroom because that's, it's ugly and it's bad.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:10:30]

CLIENT: But, yeah, I've got another piece of the clutter problem. I mean I'm thinking about clutter a lot because that was something we actually talked about on the retreat. Like the emotional and spiritual end. Like physical, literal clutter.

THERAPIST: Was he there?

CLIENT: No, I went by myself.

THERAPIST: Yeah. That's sort of what I thought, but, you know.

CLIENT: But, I have a really hard time getting rid of stuff. Like I'm a hoarder too and that terrifies me because my parents are hoarders and Dave's mother is a hoarder and I don't want to. That drowning in stuff the way our parents do. So, like I try to fight it, but it's really hard for me to get rid of stuff and when I get like these impulses to like clear stuff out, they're just kind of just really over powerful, overpowering and I just feel like physically uncomfortable until I have like cleared out a drawer or a closet or something and thrown stuff away. [00:11:35]

But, like, I often can't bring myself to let go of stuff. Like old clothes that don't fit anymore. Like, I still have, this is embarrassing to admit. I have some clothes in my closet from when like I was 20. Like, that was ten years ago. They don't fit me anymore. They're probably never going to fit me anymore and on the off chance that they do, they're horribly out of style, but I keep hanging on to them because, I don't know, I feel like, you know, I bought it and, you know, spent money on it and this was an expensive pair of pants and, you know, I have to keep scolding myself for getting too fat to wear them and, you know. Well, you spent so much money on these pants that you can't wear.

THERAPIST: Oh, I hear this.

CLIENT: It's pretty terrible. So, sometimes I'll ask Dave to just like sit in the chair next to me while I sort through this stuff and tell me, you know, it's okay to throw that out, but he finds that really emotionally draining. But, you know, I'm basically asking for his permission to do something that part of me wants to do, but part of me is resisting. [00:12:35]

THERAPIST: Yeah, you want him to hold your hand to make it easier for you, right?

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: It's not crazy. I mean, it may be draining for him. I'm not trying to blame him, but I'm just saying that's not a crazy thing for you to want. It's not unreasonable.

CLIENT: But I can't help but feel that it might be easier to get him to work on, you know, dealing with his stuff. I didn't need his help when I'm dealing with my stuff. I'm referring to stuff literally here, but I guess there's a metaphysical component to it as well. And it's just also because whenever I talk about stuff, Dave, I don't want to ascribe emotions to him that he has not verbalized because he won't admit it. He very much acts like the way I act when I'm feeling judged, if that makes any sense. [00:13:45]

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: And I know he's gotten angry at me before for saying judging things about his parent's house. Things like your parents' house is, you know, way over the top and kind of disgusting.

THERAPIST: You mean with the amount of clutter of stuff?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I think I remember you explaining a while ago that his mom is like a legit hoarder.

CLIENT: Yeah. Like piles of stuff on the floors of every room of the house. There's one room that you literally can't walk in to. You open the door and you take two steps in and there's just stuff piled up to chest height. Like stuff piled on the stairs. There's like an 8" wide path to walk up the stairs. It's terrible and it terrifies me. And I have said some awfully judgmental and thoughtless things about his parent's house because I hate going there and Dave gets really mad when I don't want to go over to his parents. I try to explain to him that I find it really stressful and it's upsetting to me. Like, literally, like I can feel my heart racing when I'm in their house and it triggers all kinds of anxiety. Except I'm not always able to find my words and instead I say something cruel about his mother being a slob or a cave troll or something. [00:15:00]

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: Yeah. So, there's always baggage around. I just, I want to live in a neat and tidy and clean apartment. That's all I want and I don't know how to get there between my issues and his issues and our issues. [00:16:00]

THERAPIST: You know, I guess I'm thinking probably about what is it about the clutter that makes you anxious or drives you nuts? I'm not saying it's surprising that you don't like clutter or that you have a pretty intense reaction I gather to it. I can imagine that results in a number of different things and I wonder. I wonder what it is in part because it sounds as though having more wiggle room with your feeling and reactions to it would probably make it easier to navigate.

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:17:05]

THERAPIST: I mean the things you mentioned are anxiety. Like at his parent's house which sounds like it's related to a fear that you will become like that. Like anger. Sort of, it's kind of critical anger. That he's like that or that they're like that. And then this kind of judgmental, guilty anger when it comes to putting stuff away. [00:18:10]

CLIENT: So, in on line forums we're talking about knitting and crafting and the whole hobby for these funny, cutesy little acronyms that people talk about. Like, so, people talk about their knitting stash, all the yarn they have that they're going to knit one day. People talk about how there's this acronym SABLE. Stash acquisition beyond life expectancy where you've bought so much yarn that even if you knit continuously every day for the rest of your life span, you couldn't knit it all and that just like, even just thinking about that, fills me with dread. Like, I feel horribly scared and anxious and upset and like my stomach is hurting right now even just talking about this. Because it's just so, I don't know. I'm not entirely sure what's so upsetting about it. Maybe it's the idea that, you know, everything in your stash represents an obligation or commitment that you've made. And part of it just seems really wasteful to me. [00:19:15]

THERAPIST: Just kind of like getting more homework assignments than you could complete in your entire life?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That's not so much that it's indulgent, as such as overbearing.

CLIENT: Maybe.

THERAPIST: And kind of guilting yourself.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean I have, you know, my knitter friends look at my stash and say like ha, ha, that's not a stash. Wait until you really start knitting. Like, well, A, fuck you. I've been knitting since I was probably 9 years old.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And B, like I don't want, like, the amount of stuff I have already feels overwhelming to me and burdensome to me and like and that's, it's a relatively small amount relative to other people participating in the study.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Like, I have one, two, three, four, five, six projects that are in progress because I keep starting things and not being able to finish them. And probably enough yarn to start and finish another six projects beyond that. And that's, that's way too much.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: I haven't bought any yarn in years except for, you know, a handful of, you know, impulse buys.

THERAPIST: Right. [00:20:30]

CLIENT: But I haven't like planned a yarn shopping expedition because it's just too much. Actually, in the last year I've only bought yarn once and that was because I went in to the knitting store because I had some of my hems sewn and the owner of the store let's people come in and use her bow winder for free, which is nice because bow winders cost about 80 bucks. You know, most places will charge you to use them. She'll let you use hers for free. So, I went in to spin my yarn and I saw this new brand, but, you know, I had an impulse buy. I was not doing good at impulse control that day. It was very pretty.

THERAPIST: How much was it?

CLIENT: About 40 bucks.

THERAPIST: I asked because you sound guilty about it. [00:21:30]

CLIENT: Mostly because I am feeling guilty about it, but not because of the money.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay.

CLIENT: Because it's just more stuff and also because I took it home and immediately started using it instead of working on any of my projects that were already in progress.

THERAPIST: Oh, I see.

CLIENT: And then some little things that are works in progress or gifts for other people and I'm feeling double plus guilty making something for myself instead of finishing a gift for someone.

THERAPIST: Right. Not only are you failing to follow through with something you started, but you're also blowing off somebody's gift. [00:22:20]

CLIENT: Right. Well, I mean, they're, one is a pair of socks for my mother which I'm not feeling terribly enthused about finishing because the last pair of socks I gave mom, she put in the dryer even though I told her they were not washer or dryer safe and she shrunk them down to like child size and then was mad. And one is for my sister, and, you know, my sister I, our relationship is fraught and I don't particularly want to be working on something for her, but

I promised her. The last thing is a scarf for Dave and I don't mind making things for Dave, but the particular pattern is kind of tedious and boring to work on. [00:23:15]

I mean I guess that explains why I feel anxious around stuff that are crafting supplies, but, or like books that I haven't read yet make me feel very upset because they're a thing that I ought to be doing.

THERAPIST: You bought it.

CLIENT: Better read it.

THERAPIST: Better read it, yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. I actually finally, finally, about two weeks ago, brought myself to get rid of a stack of books. I just went through the bookcase and said have I read it? No. Have I been carrying it around for more than five years? Yes. Okay, I need to just accept that I'm not going to read this book ever and I took them all to the used book store and sold them all. That was very hard and I actually cried about it because I felt like I was like a failure.

THERAPIST: I see. You either should not have bought them or you should have read them?

CLIENT: Yes. And since I can't go back in time and unbuy them, I should read them. I figured five years, like, it's not going to happen. I mean never mind the fact that my tastes have has changed in five years. [00:24:30]

THERAPIST: Yeah. The issue, I mean to me, doesn't seem at all that you got rid of them, but that you feel so bad about it.

CLIENT: Yes. Because that's money that I spent that I could have spent on something else. That I could have spent on something that I would have enjoyed or saved or given to charity or found something useful other than like essentially burning it.

THERAPIST: I see. So, you're horribly wasteful?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So, stuff seems to come with pretty heavy obligations.

CLIENT: Yes. Or like, this is going to sound ridiculous. I have a pair of jeans sitting on my desk, not in my closet. I bought them two and a half years ago when I got pregnant. They're maternity jeans. They fit in terms of girth, but they were like 8" too long and I meant to take them to a tailor and get them hemmed. And I mean to, and I meant to and I didn't get around to it and then I had the miscarriage and I didn't need maternity jeans anymore. Like, the logical thing to do would be to just take them to Good Will at this point because I can't return them. It's been two and a half years which is long past the return by date for any store, ever. I'm not going to wear them and I've gained weight since then. So, even if I got pregnant again, they probably wouldn't fit, so like why am I holding on to them? I don't know. [00:25:50]

THERAPIST: How many other sort of tangible reminders of the pregnancy and the miscarriage do you have?

CLIENT: Not that many. I have a shawl that I made and a half finished baby blanket.

THERAPIST: I have to imagine that has something to do with it.

CLIENT: Maybe. I mean I have this issue with all kinds of clothing items, not just maternity clothing.

THERAPIST: Right. Yeah. Maybe it's not that.

CLIENT: I don't know.

THERAPIST: Do you have a kind of . Would it sort of, I mean, because you know what happened with the books, it sounds as though it might be really painful to bring it to Good Will knowing you never got to hem them to wear them.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Does that seem more possibly like why you don't want to get rid of them? [00:27:05]

CLIENT: Maybe. I mean I could describe all kinds of things that I have sitting around that I know I should get rid of, but I can't bring myself to. Like, back in 2008, when I was campaigning for President Obama, there was this fundraiser that I got a ticket to for being a campaign volunteer. It was like a $2,500 a person fundraiser. I was able to go to for much, much less than that and I bought a really fancy, expensive dress. It was like a $350 dress which was an enormous amount of money for me then because I was working my first real job after I got out and worked for, you know, a fraction of the market rate of my skills is worth.

THERAPIST: I see. [00:28:00]

CLIENT: And it was this fabulous dress. I wore it to the fundraiser and it was great and I've worn it to a couple of fancy parties since then, but I've gained quite a bit of weight in the last four years and I doubt it would fit anymore. Like can't, like, not the oh, it's a little snug. I mean you literally can't get the zipper to close. I can't bring myself to get rid of it even though it's, you know, just sitting in my closet, taking up space, staring at me accusingly. Every time I look at it, it's an excuse to beat myself up for my perceived moral failing and gaining weight. I mean again, the logical thing to do would be to give it to someone who can wear it and enjoy it and use it and have it not taking up space in my closet and also like causing all of these negative feelings any time I look at it. You know, there is the voice in my head that says you spent so much money on it. You can't just get rid of it. Like, that would be like throwing money away. It's like well, the money is already gone. I'm not wearing it, right?

THERAPIST: Right. [00:29:00]

CLIENT: And I wore it multiple times. I got plenty of use out of it.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I mean it sounds like what you want to, what you're trying to manage is your sort of critical rage at yourself which itself, you know, isn't very logical. So, I mean you can't really logic it away, but, you know, the way you're dealing with it actually is reasonable in the sense that you probably will take it out on yourself, unfortunately if you do the things that you think make sense. I'm not saying that's not workable. I think it is. It would be seem that's what you're consistently trying to manage.

CLIENT: Right. [00:30:10]

THERAPIST: You're trying to kind of save yourself from and how you're doing with your stuff. And maybe related also to, I gather there's another side to this too in that you're probably furious with yourself that you have so much stuff.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: And that is there is clutter.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: So, you're kind of screwed.

CLIENT: How very comforting.

THERAPIST: That's me. Mister reassurance. Yeah. I mean, I guess I started out imagining what might make you anxious about Dave's parent's house and that might be part of what makes it unbearable is you worry you'll be like that.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Then you're terrified of how you'll treat yourself if that happens to you and that is terrifying. Yeah. [00:31:45]

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't know what to do. Last year, I took a bunch of clothes to the clothing swap, which was great. Like, especially because I saw people walking around that same weekend wearing some of my stuff that they had bought from me.

THERAPIST: Cool.

CLIENT: Yeah. But some of the stuff is just, I don't know, like the stuff that felt expensive to me at the time I bought them. Like, I mean I guess a $350 dress is still pretty expensive, even by my current standards, but like, you know, there's this skirt that I paid like $18 for when I was, you know, 22 and didn't have a job and that felt like a huge amount of money. Like, now $18 is, you know, nothing. I think I spent more than $18 on beer Friday night. Thursday night. But it's still like, I look at it and I think I can't give this way. It was so expensive and I know it doesn't make any sense. For some reason, I'm back in the mindset that I was in when I acquired some of these things. [00:33:20]

THERAPIST: Yeah, it sounds like it would be pretty satisfying to have some account of why you're like so critical of yourself over this kind of stuff.

CLIENT: Is my time up?

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: Oh, okay. Sorry, you've got that tone in your voice that usually precedes we should stop now.

THERAPIST: Oh, no. No, no. Well, isn't sort of a, I need you to answer in a way which I don't really like which is why your dad was probably like that quite true, but I like this one better. It's not, it's mostly at first it isn't true. [00:34:35]

CLIENT: The first time what?

THERAPIST: It isn't true.

CLIENT: Which true do you mean? I'm sorry. I got lost for a second.

THERAPIST: Sure. That you say things like that to yourself because those are just the sort of things your dad would say to you.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Or to your mother or sisters probably.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Or maybe your mother would say to you as well. I have heard more about your dad saying things like that. The other reason is I think you may have these incredibly strong critical reactions to doing things because you want to. Or just because it matters to you. And then, as you buy things like clothes and books, it's generally more about that. I mean sure, there are kinds of clothes you need for work or to go out, but you know, like, if you spend a little more or if you get a few more, you know, there's...

CLIENT: Yes. [00:35:45]

THERAPIST: That kind of stuff that like not just for functional reasons.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And I, my impression is that you can enjoy that to some extent, right? Like, getting clothes.

CLIENT: I do.

THERAPIST: Or yarn or a book.

CLIENT: I mean I'm realizing something now that a number of the clothes that are sitting in my closet that I've been telling myself I should get rid of, but I don't want to or that I want to get rid of, but there's something in me that resists that and makes me feel upset about the thought of getting rid of them. They're all very feminine clothes. It's like I have tons and tons of skirts. I have so many skirts. Probably more than two dozen skirts, that I rarely wear because, A, I don't like wearing skirts and B I don't have any tops that go with them and I always feel vaguely mismatched and uncoordinated, but every time I think about getting rid of them, like, I don't know. I guess I have this fantasy in my head of who I could be. This really well pulled together and elegant looking woman. You know, have everything together and kind of that image in my head of, you know, an adult woman who's well put together involves like skirt ensembles. So, I keep buying these really beautiful skirts. [00:37:05]

THERAPIST: Oh, I see, because she wears them.

CLIENT: Right. And like they're really beautiful skirts. You know, really high quality materials. Really nice, but I don't have anything to wear them with and so I never end up looking or feeling pulled together because none of my tops really match.

THERAPIST: Oh, I see.

CLIENT: I mean on some occasions I've taken the skirt I want to find something to match with to the store and asked someone, you know, at a Nordstrom's or whatever or some shopper to help me find something to wear with this.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: You know, help me find something, okay? This shirt was the result of one such shopping expedition where I ended up not wearing it with the matching skirt because it doesn't feel right.

THERAPIST: How so?

CLIENT: I don't know. I just, I kind of feel almost like I'm playing dress up with someone else's wardrobe. Or, like, it doesn't quite work the way it did on the mannequin. I'm not sure what's up with that, but it would sure be nice not to have so many skirts taking up space that I never wear and then making me feel guilty every time I grab a beat up pair of jeans. [00:38:20]

THERAPIST: Do you feel anxious if you're wearing a pretty, femmy ensemble?

CLIENT: A little bit, yeah.

THERAPIST: Or feeling kind of put together in that way?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Does anything come to mind about that?

CLIENT: Not really. Did I tell you about my experiment that was done two years ago?

THERAPIST: I don't believe so.

CLIENT: So, I realized that, well, I felt remarkably uncomfortable wearing, you know, dresses and skirts to work and I felt part of that was, you know, because of the male dominated environment there might be some part of me that, you know, might be worried that I wasn't being taken seriously. It's a pretty safe space for all manner of the expressions of gender and gender items and sexuality and I thought, you know, if there's anywhere where I can wear really fem clothes and experiment with that look and not worry that people will be judging me for being too girly it would be with them. So, I put together, like, ten different outfits for this five day time. I had daytime and evening outfits. They were all very feminine and they were all brand new outfits that I had bought for this occasion. Put together a full ensemble. I didn't leave anything out. You know, bought the top, the bottom, the accessories, the shoes, everything all together. And I got tons of compliments and people were coming up and asking to take their picture with me and, you know, telling me I look really fabulous and this, that and the other. [00:39:50]

And there were a couple of themed parties. There was a 50's themed party, so I had to, you know, a 50's themed outfit. And it still felt really horrible and awful and I hated every minute of it and ended up like pulling the plug on the experiment half way through and going back to jeans and t-shirts. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Were you surprised?

CLIENT: Very.

THERAPIST: Is there any more you can say about the way in which you felt anxious and horrible?

CLIENT: I just, I think the best way I can describe it is like I felt like I was in drag. I felt like I was wearing a costume for someone who wasn't me.

THERAPIST: Which I find that interesting in part because I don't gather you have a problem with like people dressing in drag or in costume. So, I guess it's striking. [00:41:15]

CLIENT: Right. So, anyways that whole experience and like, you know, the whole following year I kept trying to come up with ways to kind of wear feminine clothes and be okay with it. You know, it was very much a conscious effort to, you know, okay let's spend some money and stop trying to pull outfits together from mismatched pieces and like actually go and like ask people at stores like Nordstrom's for help and like look at fashion magazines. Because my hypothesis was that because I didn't get to experiment with fashion growing up and my parents were very much a, you know, not okay with, you know, wearing what was in or what was popular or what was trendy and they were also very, very frugal about clothing. Like, I felt part of my problem was that I was just trying to pull together outfits from pieces that sucked. So, I had a bunch of like cheap, mismatched pieces that I got because they were on the bargain rack. Like, if I stopped doing that and started buying whole outfits maybe I would feel better because, you know. [00:42:30]

But, like after a great time of very intentional attempting to make it work and intentional like paying attention to fashion and exclusively looking at what people around me were wearing and trying to emulate that, it still did not feel okay. So, that's why I gave up on even trying to wear feminine clothes and started like deliberately looking for more masculine style clothes when I go shopping and I haven't converted my entire wardrobe over yet, because I don't like shopping because it's hard to find clothes that fit because of my size and that's a whole separate pile of insecurities and issues right there, but I can't bring myself to get rid of all the clothes I bought during the time that I think of as my fem experiment.

THERAPIST: I think we should stop for now, but, yeah, I find myself wondering what's going on with all of that. It does sound like it relates to some of the issues with stuff. I mean it's probably involved with other things as well.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: But you brought it up when I mentioned about being kind of reacting very critically or harshly with yourself for doing things that you like or enjoy or that's coming out of you and I think that's certainly a piece of it. That's it for today.

CLIENT: Okay. Thank you.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

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