TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi. I'll be with you in just a minute. (pause) [00:01:30] Hi. Come on in. Thank you very much.

CLIENT: Thank you. Good morning. I guess I have a lot of questions this week, but not really any answers; so if I can remember them all I'll just start saying some of them. At the end of last session you sort of flashed out a very nice bridge analogy. I liked that. (pause) [00:02:21] But in some ways it leaves me doing that. I don't have an answer to the analogy in some sense that I wouldn't be rebuild a bridge here, but it's not something that I can do alone. Have you ever helped your friends move?

THERAPIST: Not anymore.

CLIENT: (both laugh) That's a good thing.

THERAPIST: Those were younger memories, yes.

CLIENT: There are a lot of things to carry and what you carry. I tend to find the heaviest things to carry and carry them because I can. How does that fit into (pause) my relationships? (pause) [00:03:30]

Tanya and I had an interesting conversation last night. She was thinking about the implications for, in a sense, her personal theology, but also for Christian theology generally; thinking about the implications of memory loss and memory lapse and what it means for there to be a soul if one's sense of self can be so discontinuous which, I think, is a really interesting question. (chuckles) She's not had much philosophy because she found philosophy students not very tolerable, but the question has been thought about a great deal, not in a Christian context, but for a long time what is the soul? So we talked about some of the answers that some people have given. [00:04:29] I woke up this morning and was shaving. So one of the things we talked about was the idea that one is a different person at different time points, as opposed to this sort of German idealism view of the self as the thing and it's not the other continuously through time. If there is discontinuity there then you are different selves, particularly in that construction. So what does it mean to be a person who has made commitments at some previous point in time, and is a person now? What does it mean to be a person now knowing that you'll be a different person in two years, but having to make decisions now for that future person? [00:05:33] (long pause) [00:06:33]

While I was sitting out in the outer office, a similar sort of line of reasoning eventually led to the question, "What good is virtue?" in the sense if doing the good thing or the right thing is also hard. What good is it? Which is not a question that I'm really that concerned about, in the sense that there are all sorts of platitude answers to it in the sense of virtue is its own reward or something like that. But I think that question has any weight at all for me because it relates to the idea that if we have one life, we do this one time, what is the purpose of taking specific paths, particularly when they're arduous? [00:07:43] There are a whole lot of questions that are somewhat related and some of them maybe not.

THERAPIST: They seem all pretty related and sort of webbed together. You've had a lot on your mind, although you always have a lot on your mind.

CLIENT: (laughs) Are there people that don't?

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Oh. Okay.

THERAPIST: Or they have different ways of processing or thinking about it. [00:08:34]

CLIENT: Okay. That's really interesting.

THERAPIST: There is a specificity to what's on your mind. That's not to say that other people just think about random stuff. They think about specific things, but there is sort of a particular way you organize what's on your mind. (pause) It sounds like my comment made you curious about how other people do or don't think about things.

CLIENT: Certainly, yeah. I'm always curious how other people think about things because I have a clear sense that I'm both very similar to other people and also very different, so I have a question of how different is each person from another or something like that which, in a sense, is fundamentally opposed, but you can get an answer by talking to a lot of people, which I think you've done. [00:09:47]

THERAPIST: But that question about things that are similar and things that are different goes to carrying that heavy piece of furniture or object; about you can and the assumption is other people couldn't. If anyone could carry the heavy object, what does it matter if you pick it over them?

CLIENT: Yeah, so there are two different situations that could be had, right? I could be moving things with Tanya where I can carry heavier things than she can and together we carry the heaviest things. That's just how we've done it. We've moved a few times together a few times now, but even when I was young, I wanted to carry the heaviest things because I wanted to be useful. I think back to moving things with my father and I could not carry things that he could, but I wanted to carry the heavy things because there was some sense of it being useful is the only word that I have. I can give other ones but . . . [00:10:56]

THERAPIST: What, do you think, about being useful was important to you?

CLIENT: (pause) I don't know, other than there being a task that needs to be done. I guess I was trained from an early age just to work hard at it. (pause) [00:11:52]

THERAPIST: So that your siblings are similar?

CLIENT: (pause) Yeah, I think so.

THERAPIST: Unless you were treated differently.

CLIENT: No, no. I think so. It's certainly interesting. Even with my siblings I wanted to carry the heaviest things in a metaphorical sense; and so it, perhaps, among them it was harder to recognize that they were the same way. Certainly there are particular things that each of us did not really wanted to do. Like my older sister never wanted to clean her room. It was year's worth of fights with my mother, her not wanting to clean her room or whatever that problem really was. (pause) [00:12:55] I can't remember any particular task, but I certainly remember the feeling of "oh, I have to do that now" that comes with being assigned a thing and not wanting to do it or being asked to do a thing and not wanting to do it different things but a similar feeling maybe. Looking at them out in the world yeah, I think they pay very similarly in a lot of regards. But, in some sense, that doesn't answer maybe it does answer. I don't know.

THERAPIST: It's a type of answer, yeah.

CLIENT: Okay. I feel like it's not a complete answer, but it gives some story, at least. (pause) [00:13:52] I think it's something of the form that my parents valued this thing and I really wanted to do things my parents valued out of love, admiration, respect something like that and so I did this series of things, in a sense, to do that. In doing it I came to be the person who does that thing, but I'm not sure that's a complete story, either.

THERAPIST: What else do you think is in the story?

CLIENT: I'm not sure because (pause) I don't have a very complete memory of being very young, like five and younger or seven and younger, so I can't think back to how it started or how long the thing goes back. [00:15:10] That's, I think, the main piece that I can't speak to and so I feel like this is not necessarily the case of this being something my parents trained in me solely.

THERAPIST: But it certainly became a part of you.

CLIENT: Yeah, that's the case, and it's one that hasn't gone away in the way like there's this whole church fiasco thing that we've talked about some before. That really questioned a lot of the faith, beliefs, surrounding my upbringing. This isn't one that I questioned significantly. It's even not one that I question now, in some sense. [00:16:05] It's like I can look at it and say that there is something that I'm taking it for granted that virtue is a good thing, in some sense, or being useful or doing this thing is a good thing. I can recognize that I have no way of I can find no proof that it's a good thing, but I also have no real inclination to abandon it.

THERAPIST: But the question would then be "why do the virtuous thing?"

CLIENT: Yeah, I think so. Yeah, in any specific instance, yeah. In a broader sense, "why seek to live a virtuous life?" or something like that. [00:17:10] (pause)

THERAPIST: It's a pretty big question.

CLIENT: (chuckles) It's made more complicated by, I think, a real question of what is virtue or what is the good? What are good things in the modern world? (pause) [00:18:05] I really don't have clear answers to that. (pause) I think I have a general feeling that every time I find some answer to that question, it collapses the thing collapses. When I was 15 I really thought this church thing was a good and important thing in the world, but it really just collapsed in an important way. It wasn't trustworthy. The people around it weren't trustworthy and that calls into question the things they say and then the whole thing is just unsupportable. [00:19:07]

In a lot of ways I had this view throughout all of my education up through high school that going to college was this place that I would be able to learn a great deal. It would be great. It was supposed to be the place for someone like me and my experience with it just did not match my expectation in that way, and so it was another time that the thing collapsed in some way. I found a path out of that through chemistry research. This was a thing that I really liked, that I thought was important, and it was learning things that were on the edge of what people know and that was awesome. (pause) [00:20:06] Knowing more now, I'm not sure that any institution that does character research is doing it in a way that is (pause) conscientious enough or has the goals. I've always oriented towards the right goals. We talked some about this guy not getting tenure right at the same time that I was doing my preliminary examination and how that was, in a lot of ways, a profound trust-breaking thing for me also, I think. It's not one that most people around me would recognize as one, but it felt like one for me in the sense that this person has all the things that you should be valuing. [00:21:01] Clearly you don't value him for some reason that wasn't clear to me at the time, although I have learned some of the pieces since. What are we even doing here? If that's not really what we're after, then why are we here?

THERAPIST: Do you wonder that with Tanya?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. I was getting a little bogged down in each step. I'm sorry.

THERAPIST: That's okay. I didn't mean to rush you.

CLIENT: The final step was one of my ways of finding my way out of that collapsed world with you was have you seen the show Firefly?

THERAPIST: I've heard of it.

CLIENT: It's like fourteen episodes long, so it doesn't take that long to watch because it got canceled very early. It's one of Joss Whedon's better shows. (pause) [00:22:27] I think it would be more apprehensible if I don't try to give you an analogy that involves the show. It would involve too much explanation. In essence I decided that the important thing to stick to was my friends and family, and particularly Tanya, and here we are now where Tanya has, in some sense because that was a conversation that we had together. This is the thing that's important; it is us and (long pause) . . . [00:23:51] it's sticking together, taking care of the people you care about, finding a way to get by. (pause) She's still here, so in some sense that isn't gone but . . . (long pause) [00:25:27] It's been compromised in a way that I have a hard time articulating sometimes. I feel like you described it once as, in a sense, a failure of all of our expectations and hopes. Those weren't exactly the words, but that's sort of the shorthand I give it now. (pause) Yeah. So all that's happening is sort of desperately clinging to it to keep together what remains. Then afterwards, there's the looking back and saying, "I don't really want that to have happened, I just don't want the last several months to have been what they've been." [00:26:35] I think I'm slowly accepting that they did happen, so there is that. (long pause)

THERAPIST: I was going back to your talking about discontinuity. What I thought about is just like the church could have fallen apart after. The church could still remain but it's never the same; what it means and what it represents is dramatically different than it was before. Maybe it is a good analogy with you and Tanya, too. Certainly it's very different, even though she's still there. [00:27:36]

CLIENT: And that one is an interesting one because it is still there. My cousins still go and for them it seems to be largely the same, so there is this disconnect for me of looking and saying, "Yeah, it's still there, but it's not the same." She's come back. Tanya is more or less here again in a very real way, but there is also this other person who has been there, too, who may still be there in the "several people" description, which I don't really buy anyway. [00:28:34] It makes for a particularly stark distraction in some way. (pause)

THERAPIST: The way you talked about the progression in the church to the different educational institutions to Tanya, it's like you feel like "Now I have something to believe in and invest in and be sustained by," and it's like one by one they fall. The way you say it, it's heartbreaking. (pause) [00:29:27]

CLIENT: Thank you. (pause) Also, I'm sorry. I feel bad.

THERAPIST: What have you done to apologize for?

CLIENT: (pause) I feel like I have brought my grief to you and it has rubbed off a little more today than usual.

THERAPIST: You've shared your grief with me. You shared something with me.

CLIENT: Thank you for sharing it. (pause) That makes a lot of sense. You've said it enough times that it's starting to sink in, or it did today at least. Thanks. [00:30:49] (pause) I don't know that I have a lot more to say in the sense that you understand how I feel about it in a real way and . . . (long pause) [00:31:46] I guess I don't have a clear sense of where to go. (pause) I certainly want to rebuild my relationship with Tanya and am trying to do that. It's hard. (pause) In part it's hard because it's hard to acknowledge how far apart we are now and we weren't before, whenever "before" exactly is. [00:32:49] (pause) In part because we're physically closer than we have been in a long time. We went to school together, but then we've been in different cities for years. (long pause) [00:34:24]

THERAPIST: Are you sad?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. In a good way, though, I think. (pause) You understand and you're not upset with me for being sad and I'm not afraid that me being sad is going to influence you negatively in some way, so it's safe and I feel understood and it's nice.

THERAPIST: Thank you for the opportunity to provide that to you.

CLIENT: (sighs) (catches breath) [00:35:25] (pause) You're welcome. It's not easy, but I'm very grateful to you for doing it for me. It's not easy for me to do. I am very grateful to you for doing it. (long pause) [00:37:54]

THERAPIST: Are you having any particular thoughts?

CLIENT: Many, many thoughts. Wondering what you will do with this, this conversation and the internalization and all of that, interestingly not from the perspective that I'm concerned about you, because I trust that you are able to handle it, so I'm curious as to how you handle it, in some sense. Then wondering to what extent this is possible in a non-therapeutic relationship. [00:39:00]

THERAPIST: Can you say more about this [ ] (inaudible at 00:39:02)?

CLIENT: Yeah, I think trust, understanding, safety, the sharing part of it. Obviously it's, in some sense, directional here, but that's the defined nature of the relation in some other way.

THERAPIST: Perhaps. There is certainly a truth to it, but I have to have trust in you to be able to say the things and do the things that I do.

CLIENT: I guess I was more trying to acknowledge that this is not like a reciprocal relationship where you have a bad day or something traumatic happens in your life and you tell me about it.

THERAPIST: I understand. [00:40:06] (pause)

CLIENT: Do I still need to say more?

THERAPIST: No, I understand.

CLIENT: Those were the big thoughts. I guess I was thinking about my friend, Franco, with whom I do have a very close relationship. (pause) In answer to my own question of whether it's possible, we have a very good relationship and . . . [00:41:05] (pause) Much of the same dynamics are there and in both directions, so I guess the answer is yes, I think it's possible and that's a good thing. It's hard and people are fragile and it takes a lot of work in some way; (pause) but it's worth it. (pause) [00:42:29]

THERAPIST: You're deep in thought again.

CLIENT: Yeah, I guess I was thinking about our conversations about switching therapists and in this context are complicated maybe, given that, in some sense, that conversation was possible because of the time that we have been meeting.

THERAPIST: I'm sorry. The switching therapists meaning the couple going to see different therapists?

CLIENT: No, no, no. Moving somewhere else and Tanya switching therapists or something like that.

THERAPIST: Oh, I see. Interesting.

CLIENT: It just makes it more complicated, good and bad. It's complicated because it's presumably taking away a close relationship. I'm not sure whether I said good or bad before, but that seems like it's not a great thing. [00:43:37] But then the practice of developing another one can only be good, I think.

THERAPIST: I see. Now I see the analogy. You're thinking about Tanya's relationship with Chad.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. So now you've seen some piece of my thought process. I seem to be in the moment and I generalize outward in a variety of directions. (pause)

THERAPIST: Is that something that's come up very recently specifically between the two of you, or just in the general idea of where you will go? [00:44:34]

CLIENT: Just in the general idea. It hasn't really come up since you and I last talked about it. (pause)

THERAPIST: I just started thinking about what are the conditions under which someone can feel safe?

CLIENT: That's a really good question. (pause) [00:45:28] Do you feel like there's a general answer? That's a general question that has particular answers.

THERAPIST: I guess it depends on how you define particular. My first thought was that there are ways you can think about it. There has to be an element of predictability, otherwise to me that seems sort of foundational. Feeling safe there has to be even if it's sort of different every time there is a predictability in the change. I think that's one of the things that has been so problematic in your relationship with Tanya is that it seems to come completely out of left field and from day to day you don't know where you're going to get it. It's the opposite of safety. You have to feel like you're on guard. You cannot to me the physiologic component to safety is being relaxed, in some sense, not having to be vigilant or alert, which is the antithesis of not knowing what you're going to get from day to day. [00:46:42] (pause) I just realized we're going to need to stop there. It's a very interesting idea. I'm not going to see you for a few weeks. You're away three Wednesdays, is that correct?

CLIENT: That's right.

THERAPIST: Am I away the fourth Wednesday or are we away the last Wednesday together? I'm away the 7th of August.

CLIENT: And I'm away the 31st of July.

THERAPIST: Okay. I'm just away the week of the 5th, but I'll be back on the week of the 12th. I am looking at the one person I was thinking about a couple's therapist for you, she is unfortunately really booked right now. I have someone in mind. I'll contact her, but I imagine you don't need her information until you get back.

CLIENT: That's right. Tanya will feel better the sooner we have some answer.

THERAPIST: I was going to call her today so, assuming she's not away, I will touch base with her. She's in Burnley, I'm pretty sure, so it's not too far from where you guys are. I hope you have a good trip and I'll see you in a few weeks.

CLIENT: Thanks very much.

THERAPIST: Okay. Take care.

CLIENT: You, too.

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