TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi, come on in. (Did you see him? ph?)

CLIENT: Morning.

THERAPIST: Morning.

CLIENT: Thank you for seeing me.

THERAPIST: Sure. This time opened up, so I thought it was... a good time.

CLIENT: Yeah. So, yeah, I think I am frustrated, which is kind of where we were talking last time. So there are a lot of frustrating things happening in my life, but those are probably not the point, so... Writing a paper, and doing literature searches, none of the relevant literature is well indexed, because it's 80 years old and for whatever reason, they weren't using the right terms, and so it's not indexed well. So it's like eventually (I ph?) found a paper that found a paper that had paper that referred to this literature that's actually well networked. It's frustrating, but that's not really a big deal, usually, because that's just how these things go. [00:01:10]

I think more relevant is that I am frustrated in my marriage, and a lot of other frustrating things are happening also, I guess, and... It's like the... core frustration is a signal amplifier or something, so, if that makes any sense. (pause)

Somewhere, I don't know a month or six weeks ago, I sort of started "trying on" the decision of pursuing an academic career at a large university. I actually can't remember if we talked about that at all.

THERAPIST: Not very much. [00:02:3]

CLIENT: Okay. Then, somewhere in that time period then, around when I saw you last, save one, (pause) teaching graduate students seems worthwhile and teaching them well seems like it's worth doing. A lot of people end up in the business of ostensibly teaching graduate students for what seems to me like the wrong reason, that is, pursuing some sort of, like, self-glorifying career or something, and a lot of people suffer, as a result. I guess a person who has tenure, is a faculty member for 35 years or something, sees a lot of students; more students, the more they're interested in their own ego because, at least in biomechanics, that's the way you do it, is you bring in more students and the ones that aren't that productive you ignore and those that are more productive you abuse. So then you end up with a lot of publications and are famous and it's good, um, for you. [00:03:20]

I feel like there is a sub current in the culture that is not at all that way, that is in it for more or less the right reasons. It's a job that has all sorts of pressures, like any job, and can be done poorly or well, et cetera. Anyway, so the "try on" that as a thing to do. And sometimes I've not wanted to do it for years because a) it seemed hard, in the sense of like impossibly hard, because there are too many demands; and I guess, b) it wasn't particularly clear to me that the, there was any purpose to it, at the end. You suggested once that maybe it wasn't the job of being structured, finding purpose for every student; maybe that was the student's job themselves, which I think is pretty close to right. This sense we all have to find purpose ourselves, that's not something that can be given to us. [00:04:30]

THERAPIST: And we might do a better job than somebody else, too.

CLIENT: (laughs) One would hope, yeah! Somehow, I think other people can see us more clearly, at least for moments, that's clear, but... So it would helpful in that way. In some sense, I feel like that's a thing that you do, is come and see people very clearly for a period of time, and help them find what they are not seeing or something. (pause) [00:05:15]

So I could continue to talk about that, and I'd be happy to, but I'm not sure that's the point, today, either. The reason I started on that digression was that I've sort of been "trying this on" for a while and I... Some days it doesn't seem like a good idea, but most days I'd like it. My thesis committee is very supportive and thinks that I would be a benefit to any department in the country, which is nice, in terms of praise. (pause)

The frustration is that, particularly at the outset, it's a demanding career path, emotionally and time-wise. I am not convinced that I would be able to do it because I don't know that Tanya can take... the attendant whatever, I'm not sure what the right word is. Doing this will require a large amount of my time and focus, and I want to do it... [00:06:53]

(pause) ...and she's supportive of it in a linguistic sense or a, like, verbal sense. I think, internally she's supportive of it; it's just that I'm not sure that... (pause) I'm not sure she understands that it means she's going to have to take care of herself (chuckle)! Like, she can't collapse again, or I will have to choose, perhaps more severely, between a career and her and... [00:07:43]

Part of the whole point is that, I think that many people who are effective (in other words ph?) choose their career over the people that are around them, so that's not the choice I can make. I'd really rather not be put in the position. But I, you know... And then I can talk about this with her, in theory; but to what end? Like, what... what reasonable, factually grounded belief can I have that anything she says will matter a year from now, will be relevant to... (pause 00:08:36 to 00:09:02)

THERAPIST: Well, that seems like it's coming from a place that you don't really feel you can ever rely on her again for anything.

CLIENT: (pause) Um...

THERAPIST: And so far, you're saying nothing she says really matters.

CLIENT: Yeah, um... The only reason I didn't assent immediately and 100% is that it's not an "ever" thing, necessarily; but there is no reason at this moment that... (pause) There is no reason in the next, I don't know, some span of time, to believe that I can rely on her, or I don't feel like there is... which is a little bit different from, like, believing that I can never rely on her again. It's to say that, like, I think a time window, a year or two years, I can't rely on her during that time, but... I would need to, in order to follow this career path, and so... [00:10:36]

THERAPIST: (pause) I'm sure there is sort of a better scientific way of putting it, but it's, I'm sort of trying to tease out the noise from the actual, sort of, variables. The problem is the noise in the one set of circumstances is actually the pertinent variables in another; does that, is there a scientific equivalent to that?

CLIENT: Well, that's about right. Yeah, usually people talk about the signal and noise at the same time, so you're looking for a signal from some... some data stream has a signal, but it also has some error on all of the signal, and that's the noise. [00:11:24]

THERAPIST: I see. Even though they're not using noise the right way, because I think that that then becomes the signals in other contexts.

CLIENT: I... I think that's right.

THERAPIST: Okay. Now, as I was trying to draw that analogy, I lost my point! (chuckles)

CLIENT: Sorry! (chuckles)

THERAPIST: I was going somewhere... Yeah, I mean... I'm going to say you can't do this, and of course, you can; but you know, you can't live your life at, even for year, just saying that nothing that Tanya says can I count on, and then just try to live, because you can't live like that. I mean, I don't even know if, like, that might actually be like a practical statement.

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: ...it'd be like a moral statement or something; it's definitely not a moral statement. I don't think it's only a theoretical statement, I actually think it's a practical statement.

CLIENT: No, I think that's right; but I'm not sure what to do. (pause 00:12:20 to 00:13: 40)

So Tanya has a strained relationship with her mother; it's her mother, actually that has a lot of the same symptoms that she does, and has for years. Her mother wanted to help with our wedding somehow, so we picked a task that didn't matter (it was flowers), but that she would be very good at if she came through on the subject. She ended up coming through very well on it; but if she hadn't, it wouldn't have mattered, because we had a back-up plan. At that point, (was cared ph?) particularly about the flowers, and so it was a really good thing. [00:14:25]

But... it seemed relevant when I started telling you that... I think that the point was that, in that circumstance, my solution to the problem of Tanya continually relying on her mother, who was unreliable for any sort of emotional support, was to essentially like... I don't know what a fair description of it is, but not care and then rely on her for something you don't care about. [00:15:05]

(pause) Actually, I think that was the right choice in that solution, or in that situation, because it gave her an opportunity to help and participate without a) without a lot of pressure from anyone else, because she got complete control of the thing but b) without a lot of, I don't know, without a lot of emotional attachment on our end, because there was no guarantee that that was going to be a worthwhile investment. I don't know, maybe that's not a healthy way to handle that situation. (chuckles) It worked out okay, but... (pause 00:16:10 to 00:16:26) Yeah, I think that's probably relevant, unless you had something to...

THERAPIST: Well, what I was thinking is that, even though it would be wonderful; adults don't need their parents, if their parents... I mean, they cannot need that, right? You have the capacity not to need your parent as an adult.

CLIENT: In theory. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: In theory, right. Certainly not the way... I mean, different from when you need your parent as a child.

CLIENT: Absolutely.

THERAPIST: But typically, people want to need their spouse in a way that they don't need to need their parent, because that's... like adults and... the function that your parents served, it would be lovely to have a great relationship, but you don't need it. And you don't need a good relationship with your spouse, but most people don't want to think they get to have those choices more than they do with their parents.

CLIENT: You say you don't need a great relationship with your spouse? [00:17:25]

THERAPIST: You don't... I should say you don't need your sp... No one needs anyone the way a child needs a parent. We start there. An adult child does not need their parent the way they did. In theory, you know, you'll survive without... anyone can survive without a great, good relationship with their spouse, but most people want that. They want to need their spouse in that way, and they need to want, you know, both... It's not a survival issue, but that's what most adults want.

CLIENT: (chuckles)

THERAPIST: In a way, they can kind of, you know, it is what it is with you parents. You know, not to trivialize it, but...

CLIENT: Sure, sure.

THERAPIST: You have less of a choice. (phone rings) [00:18:15] (inaudible) And I thought where you were going with the example, just not actually intentionally, but just sort of generally, well maybe I can just need less. If you give someone an inessential task, then you don't care if it's bad or not. It's hard to see how this would translate to your marriage.

CLIENT: Well, so I think the translation is that is my sort of... in a sense that's my response to situations like this, is to adjust my expectations to close to zero, just saying. (pause 00:18:58 to 00:19:10)

THERAPIST: And I guess, another problem with that is, it's not only isolated to the very big area of your life, of Tanya, but then, it has to then translate to all other areas of your life, where you then assume that all bets are off your expectations of your career, then, are close to zero because you can't commit to anything, and so forth.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Then everything becomes close to zero.

CLIENT: (pause) Yeah, which I'm not really okay with.

THERAPIST: I know.

CLIENT: (laughs) (pause 00:19:44 to 00:22:00) Yeah, I don't know. See, usually, it's, part of the point of lowering expectations is that then one is not, I am not frustrated when expectations are not met; but at some point, that is... I either have to not care about Tanya and/or my relationship with her, or I have to be frustrated about where our lives are; seem to be, like, all I am capable of doing. I'm not really that happy with either of those things. (pause 00:22:32 to 00:22:54)

THERAPIST: I haven't thought about what you said, but you're so deep in thought; are there other things you're thinking?

CLIENT: (pause) I mean, so I went to Ohio for two weeks. She didn't kill herself; just passing the lowest possible bar, in some sense. She wasn't hospitalized, so that's passing another bar. (pause) But it was clear that she was having a rough time, and it's clear that in a sense, she like, cannot live on her own for a long period of time; two weeks I probably about as long as she is able to live on her own, is my guess. [00:23:42]

When I got back, it was clear that she had been self-injuring again. Not cutting, but like, scraping with things, just... (pause 00:24:02 to 00:24:25) Yeah... don't have a conclusion to that; that was the end of that.

THERAPIST: And you felt, or she communicated to you or felt that it was a direct correlation with you being away?

CLIENT: Well, she didn't communicate that at all, but that's what I felt, yeah. (pause 00:24:37 to 00:25:15]

THERAPIST: You felt if you were here, that would not happen?

CLIENT: Yeah; I'm not sure that's a good thing, um, but I (inaudible at 00:25:23; pause to 00:25:35) You know, the sense we're drifting in two... like, trying to unpack what her issues are, which is a problem that I am not sure is tractable, so... You know, if I'm not there... if I'm there, she's less likely to self-injure, because, I think, because she'll feel more guilty about doing it. That's, it's not particularly clear that that's helpful.

It's also not particularly clear that that's attached to anything, like anything I do or don't do; just like, so... (pause 00:26:34 to 00:26:58)

You know, at this point, the number of suicidal episodes she's had, while I have been present, far outweighs the number that she's had while I have not been present, so what does that mean?

THERAPIST: Do you have a thought on what that means, or just, who knows?

CLIENT: Who knows! Yeah, no that's... it's not particularly clear those things (signal to pick out ph?) there or that there is a clear one, because it's... the time sequence has too many changes in it. You know, I moved here, so that is a big change from when we were visiting each other long distance. And so, is it because I was here, or is it just because that's where she was during the time period when I was here? I don't that's an answerable question, but it seems relevant in some sense because now we're at this question of like, what did me leaving me have to do with her mood or stability? [00:28:10]

THERAPIST: Well, there is one issue of the sense of responsibility you feel to kind of monitor her, ground her somehow; and then there is the other issue of, regardless of what you are or aren't doing, that this is a really unhappy situation for you, regardless of what the cause or amelioration of the distress. Being married to somebody who's in chronic distress is extremely upsetting.

CLIENT: I think that's right. Yeah.

THERAPIST: And... I mean, everything, sort of, you believe about yourself and about life and your, sort of, your ethic, your life ethic is being challenged by this marriage. That is, sort of, unwavering, non-contingent commitment, which is really being challenged, because I feel that on some level, you're thinking, you know, are there ultimate exceptions to that rule? And even the idea that there would be an exception goes so against your sort of, you know, moral (Client chuckles) ethical and just personal value system grain, it goes so against that, that you're really struggling with it.

CLIENT: Yeah, that's right. (pause 00:29:39 to 00:29:51) Thank you for understanding. (pause 00:29:53 to 00:30:29] Yeah, I think that's right. (pause 00:30:30 to 00:32:15)

THERAPIST: And I feel like you're coming up against something that we all come up against because we're human: you're coming up against your limits. You're wondering how flexible they are, you know, whether some of your expectations about Tanya can be met over time because she'll get better, or what your limits are, and what happens when you feel you've reached them, and what are your choices at that point.

But recognizing, you know, sort of trying to, you know, really clarify what those limits actually are, recognizing that you have some, is very important. I'm very serious about that. Saying "Nothing matters," that's sort of like, I'm not even going to, I'm just... it's this sort of free-for-all (chuckles) that sort of almost obviates the question of limits. It skirts around the issue. (pause 00:33:10 to 00:33:39]

CLIENT: Maybe. On the other hand, it's... yeah. No, that may be right. (pause 00:33:46 to 0:34:10) On the other hand, I think it's also a sense of, like, taking our limits to a limit, at the limit of everything being finite in a nearly infinite large space or time. The whole series of finite things don't matter very much. But no, I think that's right, that, in some sense, taking the limit to the limit is a way of bearing what is probably the more important point, that there is a limit in the first place. (pause 00:34:51 to 00:35:50)

Talking about, in terms of limits, is kind of strange, because... I guess in most contexts, I feel like I am aware of being human and limited and so...

THERAPIST: Well, I guess, it was kind of an odd way of putting it, but not only limits to what you can do, but limits to what you can do without. There are certain things you can't do without, there are limits to what you can do without.

CLIENT: Uh-hm. (pause 00:36:40 to 00:37:43) Yeah, that's right. Definitely don't think about that much, but yeah. (pause 00:37:49 to 00:38:02) But then, that puts us in this, puts me in this place where, like, there are limits to what I can do without, and there are limits to what I'm willing to do and, there is not a whole lot of space left in between those things now. (pause 00:38:13 to 00:38:55)

In an extrapolation, it's kind of like induction; doesn't really have any formal validity, but it's kind of fun to do anyway. Often, it's useful; in spite of the effect. So it's not that hard to extrapolate from the present place where I'm like, I, you know, I made these vows and I want to keep them because I want to be a person who keeps vows... but the cost of keeping them in the sense of, like, not leaving...

I think at some point, presence stops being sufficient. (pause) But they're saying, at least a logical future world, and probably a real world future world in which that's about all I can get is presence, so... (pause 00:40:06 to 00:40:42) And that's not really where we are right now, but it's... clearly I think about it sometimes.

THERAPIST: Yeah, and my one concern for you (and you're trying to negotiate this), and I don't even know how to describe it, just... I don't know, sad situation, I was going to say something more dramatic, but maybe that's the best way to describe it, I'm not sure. My concern is that you not see your options too starkly, like one being complete self-abnegation, you know, no goals, personal dreams, hopes of your own, yet alone anything that you could possibly expect from your marriage; or leaving. That would be my concern for you. And I can understand why they feel so stark right now. [00:41:35]

CLIENT: Yeah, I guess I don't really feel like those are my only options. In a sense, I don't feel like those are, either of those is actually an option, so... But there, I guess they're sort of like the bounding poles of my range of options or something. It's not a particularly clear... but there is a good point in the middle to aim at.

THERAPIST: Well, even like, you're not pursuing academic career for fear of not being available to Tanya. What do imagine you would do then that would make you more available? I mean, people have to have a job. [00:42:12]

CLIENT: Well, that's the point, right? There are not a particularly clear pole in the middle to aim at, and so at some point, like, that's what I want to do, but I... I think I am more concerned that I'm going to get somewhere into it and then there will be other people relying on me and... I don't know. And I'll have to either abandon them or Tanya, and ...

THERAPIST: But even, see, that is so stark. I guess I'm not sure what that would look like practically, you would be abandoning one or the other.

CLIENT: Isn't that what I've just done? Like, I left my physical presence in my PhD program and came here. [00:43:05]

THERAPIST: (James ph?), well, so that's one piece of it, that you had imagined that you'd be pursuing an academic career, where Tanya wasn't living? I mean (blocked)

CLIENT: No, no, I mean...

THERAPIST: I don't mean to be so concrete, but...

CLIENT: No, no, that's fine. I... no, certainly, that would not be the case. Yeah... (pause 00:43:21 to 00:43:47) No, I mean, I think you're right, that there are some overestimating going on there. (pause 00:43:50 to 00:44:14) Yeah, I don't know.

THERAPIST: I mean, it's mostly, sort of an extreme way of saying it, it's like, feeling like you can't make commitments to other people and other things because you will always potentially be held hostage by Tanya's needs. Even that potential feels like it could limit you from doing other things.

CLIENT: Yeah. And part of it is, knowing that I have this other commitment that may balloon in scale at any time. How can I reasonably make a commitment to anything or anyone else? Or something like that, you know. [00:45:10]

THERAPIST: My sort of knee-jerk response is, How can you not, how could you not, but how could you live like that?

CLIENT: (laughs). An appropriate response, yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay. You know, we kind of need to stop for today, but I want, oops, I didn't mean to cut you off, I just...

CLIENT: No. Nothing of any importance, more on the same theme, so...

THERAPIST: Well, which is important. But we'll pick this up on Wednesday, okay?

CLIENT: Okay, thank you.

THERAPIST: Okay, bye-bye.

END TRANSCRIPT