TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:00:12)

[00:01:00]

[00:02:00]

THERAPIST: Hi, come on in.

CLIENT: Good morning.

THERAPIST: Good morning.

CLIENT: I don't know where to start, now. [laughs]

(pause)

CLIENT: Somewhere in the session last time, you compared my relationship to Nazi Germany. I was wondering if you [laughs] could comment on that a little bit more whether that was a throwaway analogy or whether that meant something more. [00:03:08]

THERAPIST: I don't recall...

CLIENT: Okay, all right.

THERAPIST: ...comparing your relationship to Nazi Germany.

CLIENT: [laughs] Okay.

(pause)

THERAPIST: But that's what stuck with you.

CLIENT: I think I laughed in surprise at the time. I said something to the effect of, "[United against] (ph) a common enemy," and you said, "Yes, well, that worked for Nazi Germany, also," as if...

Yes, you didn't actually compare my relationship to Nazi Germany, but...

(pause)

[00:04:00]

(pause)

CLIENT: I felt like there's a possible interpretation of you saying that where you meant something more than I don't know what.

THERAPIST: Hmm. I mean, I'll definitely tell you what I specifically meant but I'm curious about the way you took it and/or (ph) it's stayed with you.

CLIENT: Okay. I took it in as, "There's an odd thing that I was not expecting." It felt like I was saying, "Well, here's at least a positive thing that came out of this bad experience with Jannis," and you said, "Yes, well, that is a positive thing, but..." and I'm not quite sure what the "but" is. [00:05:00]

THERAPIST: Well, actually, I wasn't saying "but," I was actually saying I don't necessarily think that's a positive thing.

CLIENT: I see. Okay. Okay.

THERAPIST: And maybe, as I'm seeing (ph) it now, that may have been premature. I can see why there would be-I'm not saying I was right...

CLIENT: [laughs]

THERAPIST: ...but if I think about what you were saying, "Well, it connected us in a particular way." And I guess, you know, if I think about it very directly, I was saying that's maybe not the greatest basis for a connection.

CLIENT: Okay. Okay.

THERAPIST: I certainly wasn't comparing your relationship to Nazi Germany, though.

CLIENT: Yeah, I didn't really think you were, but...

THERAPIST: But it stayed with you, and it seemed yeah (ph)...

(pause)

[00:06:00]

(pause)

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

(pause)

CLIENT: Yeah, I think because mostly because I was a little bit surprised to hear you say and clearly not quite understanding what you meant.

(pause)

[00:07:00]

(pause)

CLIENT: Yeah, I guess I'm still not quite clear on... I guess, in context, what would be a good basis for a connection?

THERAPIST: Hmm. Well, that's a very good question. That's (ph) a much broader question.

CLIENT: [laughs]

THERAPIST: Because that does feel... Yeah, I guess I'm not fully understanding. So am I saying that does that seem like that would be a priTanya basis for a connection, a common enemy?

CLIENT: No, no, not really. It was just... [00:08:00]

I think the reason it stuck with me is just this. I was telling you about an experience that wasn't great, but I was saying, "Well, here's this other thing. At least it did this." And you were like, "Yeah, well, that's not so good."

And that's surprising, that response, when I was saying it as this ameliorating factor, in some sense.

THERAPIST: I was clearly saying that, yes.

CLIENT: [laughs]

THERAPIST: So then, (inaudible at 00:08:35) I was saying that.

But if we take up your other question, well, what is a good basis for a connection? That's a pretty big question.

CLIENT: It is, yeah.

(pause)

[00:09:00]

CLIENT: I like big questions, but I don't think I'm really going to try to answer that one.

(pause)

[00:10:00]

(pause)

CLIENT: We went to see Dr. Jannis (sp?) on Monday. I like him. Tanya (ph) likes him. I think we'll keep seeing him. A change in a positive direction from Dr. Jannis... So thank you for the recommendation.

THERAPIST: Sure. [00:11:00]

(pause)

CLIENT: I'm in this space where I'm not really sure where I am today, so I'll tell you about where I was last time I left you, and then we can end up back where we are today.

When I came here last time, I thought I was doing reasonably okay. There's sort of a (inaudible at 00:11:46) talked about how that these things that you'd said had been very helpful, and I have been working to apply them, use them, that had been good. [00:12:00]

(pause)

CLIENT: I think the most amusing way to story is that you said, "Oh, that's good, so let's talk about this other thing. Let's talk about your sex life. How's that going?" And that, in a sense, just completely tanked me. That's amusing in a sense of, "That's working out for you? Are you sure?" [laughs] It's a way to (inaudible at 00:12:50), which is not at all what you were really doing I don't think.

THERAPIST: Wait, are you sure? [00:13:00]

CLIENT: [laughs]

THERAPIST: I wasn't the questioning the same thing that you said (inaudible at 00:13:02).

CLIENT: No, absolutely not.

THERAPIST: (crosstalk at 00:13:05), so, (crosstalk at 00:13:06).

CLIENT: It was more a question of the-I think, in some sense, what I was implying by saying, "These are working well," is, "I'm doing okay." And you're saying, "Okay, that's good. I'm not really sure that's true." I don't think you did that, but that's it.

THERAPIST: Well, it would assume that I knew that other things weren't working out for you, and I didn't know that.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. Which is why I don't think it's a factually accurate description, so I'm not sure why I felt it (ph) that compelling, there. I don't really find it a true narrative, just this... Anyway, I think we get stuck on that for a while, but I don't know whether there's actually meaning in it or not. [00:14:01]

THERAPIST: But it seems like I have a lot of negative things to say: "Your relationship is like Nazi Germany," "Are you really sure things are working out for you?"

CLIENT: [laughs]

THERAPIST: Sounds like I have a lot of those kinds of things to say.

(pause)

CLIENT: Yeah, it sounds like, when I tell it that way. For me, I think, what really happened is I had been... [00:15:00]

I guess you talked in the end about Tanya's and my sex life in the context of unmet needs and failure to balance needs. And I think both there were a lot of specific feelings that I had not been dealing with, because there's (ph) too many feelings to deal with, all of the negative feelings all at once on that subject. And then that is related to all of the other issues in the relationship.

(pause)

[00:16:00]

CLIENT: I feel like I'm really struggling to communicate this effectively.

(pause)

[00:17:00]

(pause)

CLIENT: To go back to your "A lot of negative things" comment, I think the world is more comforting if you're an all-seeing wizard which I know you're not, and I'm okay with you not being, it's just as well. [00:18:05]

But in some sense, you may as well be, because... It's a particular feature of our relationship, or how you work, or something that... In some sense, you find the problem areas, which is part that resolving problems, if she was [finding with her] (ph) (inaudible at 00:18:40).

So given that I had a whole lot of negative feelings about my relationship, between Wednesday and Sunday-ish or further but... [00:19:01] I think it's comforting for there to be someone else who recognizes the relationship dynamics as unhealthy.

(pause)

CLIENT: Which I'm pretty sure you do, regardless of any specific thing that you did or didn't do or say or didn't say if that makes sense.

THERAPIST: I'm not 100% committed to that, what you just said. I'm not going to 100% endorse it.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: It certainly what you just said clarifies my thought that you're taking, you saw what I was saying much more negatively than I had at least intended it. [00:20:09] That fits (ph).

(pause)

CLIENT: Yeah, I think I presented it back to you today much more negatively than I actually took it.

THERAPIST: Maybe you're also saying on a basic level that it's helpful for me to validate your experience.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely; that has been helpful a number of times.

(pause)

[00:21:00]

THERAPIST: But this distinction that I'm going to try to make is important, and it goes to your sort of wizard, your thought of well, maybe I can be a wizard or maybe I am and knowing that that's sort of funny and comical because it's not true, but maybe there's some, "it would be nice if the world worked that way."

CLIENT: I think I'd actually be less happy in that world.

THERAPIST: Why?

CLIENT: I don't know, but (inaudible at 00:21:39). I'm interested in what you had to say.

THERAPIST: Yeah, in terms of your feeling negative about the relationship and it's nice to sort of feel that I would see it as unhealthy dynamic; somehow, that it would jive, somehow, your experience with my assessment. [00:22:00]

I'm not even sure I would commit to that, your relationship being unhealthy, because I don't know what you need and what would be good enough for you and what you want. I mean, I know, but I can't know that for you. I can help you understand your experience and figure out what kind of relationship you want and whether this is sufficient or not, essentially, to put it in a very crude way; but it's not my job, nor, I think, is it really within my ability to assess your relationship, "This is good, this is bad," as some sort of objective measure because you're living in it, and it's your relationship.

(pause)

[00:23:00]

(pause)

[00:24:00]

(pause)

[00:25:00]

(pause)

CLIENT: I think there's a sense in what you're stressing, true things a little bit at the expense of other true things. I think you can tell when I am having a good experience or not, from talking with me, but that's a minor quibble.

What you said is actually very helpful, because I think it clarifies why I would not be that happy in a world where you were a wizard. Because if you were a wizard, you would have a very clear sense of what I should do, but you are claiming that you do not have a clear sense and in fact can't. [00:26:00]

While you might have opinions about it, that's different from you being a wizard and knowing what I actually should do. Which is helpful, in some sense, because...

(pause)

CLIENT: You know, I think if we take anything from Greek myths, it would just be the belief that knowing what the future might hold is never really that helpful. It always goes badly when you try to tell someone what they ought to do when you have knowledge of what they actually ought to do.

(pause)

[00:27:00]

(pause)

THERAPIST: What are you thinking?

(pause)

CLIENT: [laughs] I was thinking that you were clearly thinking things but weren't going to tell me, at that moment, so I started thinking about all the things that that we had talked about might mean. I got about as far as... [00:28:00] Your description of the role that you play in some sense relates to me figuring out what I need, deciding whether it's sufficient or playing a role about facilitating that journey.

(pause)

CLIENT: I got as far as I'm not really sure what I need, then here we are.

(pause)

THERAPIST: Well, with your not being happy with important aspects of your relationship is not only causing a problem of you being unhappy, but it's causing a problem of you don't know what to do about it. [00:29:09]

(pause)

CLIENT: Yeah, that's definitely true.

(pause)

THERAPIST: It seems like one of the things that you took away from last week which I actually think I would agree with this you were saying about last week's session, I would agree with this in general, that at times, you don't let yourself know how unhappy you are. [00:30:10]

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, that's definitely right. Well, I think it's a little more general than unhappy. It depends on how you define unhappy, but in some sense, sad is an emotion that sometimes I don't let myself know how much I am, or angry is another that I felt (inaudible at 00:30:34). Uncovered in a session, in some sense; been there, but I haven't been acknowledging. Yeah, that sounds right.

It goes back to the wizard theory (ph). You help me find those places (inaudible at 00:30:54). [00:31:00]

THERAPIST: I like to think of myself as a really good navigational system.

CLIENT: Yes. You're definitely that. [laughs] I just like the word "wizard," it's fun. Has a z in it. "Navigational," it's just not as...

THERAPIST: Not as fun?

CLIENT: Yeah. But no, you are-yeah, I guess that's not the best analogy, in the sense that to use a navigational system well, you have to know where you're going, and I think particularly in that type of feature, finding a place where I am not acknowledging some way that I feel. I don't know where I'm going.

(pause)

[00:32:00]

THERAPIST: Yeah, I guess it's not a good analogy because usually in the navigational system, you have to program in your destination. Your destination is "better."

CLIENT: [laughs] Well, now you're just a wizard. Take me to better. [laughs]

(pause)

THERAPIST: I know you said, you know, you don't want to answer or tackle that question, but I think the question that you initially asked about, "What does bring connection?" [00:33:02] You didn't say it like that, you said something like, "How do people build a connection?" or...

CLIENT: You had said essentially that uniting against a common enemy wasn't a good basis for a connection. What would be?

THERAPIST: Right, [exactly, and then what is] (ph)? That (crosstalk at 00:33:18).

CLIENT: Sorry, but I particularly didn't want to answer it at that moment, I felt like some of the other things that we've just talked about were important context for you to have in what I was thinking about, but fair enough. That is an important question.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: [laughs]

THERAPIST: Different people have different answers.

CLIENT: Dr. Jannis, I think, seeks to answer that question for any given couple by asking them, without telling them he's asking them.

He started our session by asking how we met, how we came together, which was really interesting and I think a clever tool. Obviously, the tone of two people coming in to couples' counseling is not, "Hey, everything's great!" so it's an interesting way of turning that around so that the tone isn't necessarily negative the entire time, but also gives the context for, "Yeah, this (ph) is nice."

I'm sorry. I know you know this field very well and are quite good at it, just was interested in that particular technique.

THERAPIST: Yeah, why would apologize for that?

CLIENT: [sighs] In case you took it as I was telling you how to do your job or something like that, which I... [00:35:00]

THERAPIST: Nope (ph). I didn't take it that way, for sure.

CLIENT: Okay. That's good.

Anyways, so I don't...

(pause)

CLIENT: ...so that's an interesting approach, and I guess what he took from what we said was that we connected particularly on intellectual questions and sort of a... desire for knowledge and truth and (inaudible at 00:35:52) liking to talk about ideas. That seems like an okay basis for connection. [00:36:00] It's certainly one I value.

(pause)

CLIENT: What he sort of left on the table, because I think he had gotten enough answer for the moment, was that we were both somewhat discontent (inaudible at 00:36:27), at the time, so there was this sort of-yeah, I guess there's a way to project that it's the same, like uniting against a common enemy, but that was, in that case it was much more finding someone else who's having a similar experience of the world. Which is, I think, different does that sound different?

(pause)

[00:37:00]

CLIENT: Although if pressed (inaudible at 00:37:09), I can draw a very clear line between those two things.

(pause)

[00:38:00]

(pause)

CLIENT: There's a sort of intellectual or emotional ways of connecting. I think there are important physical ways of connecting, also. I think of sex, I think eating. Shared experience in that way, I think those are important ways that people connect, also. Or I think those are good ways to connect, not always like... Certainly talking about making a connection, in the context of sex, has all sorts of-just has an enormous range of applications in the real world, and I don't know that I want to endorse all of them, but... [00:39:07] I think that's important.

(pause)

THERAPIST: I started thinking, at this moment I have no idea why this thought came to my mind I started thinking, "Where are all your other relationships go?" I'm not saying they've actually been lost, but I was just thinking about how much we've been talking about you and then you and Tanya, and how little I've heard about anybody else. I mean, it just could be that the focus isn't there, but I just (ph), "Where did James's family go?" [00:40:01] That's what I started thinking about.

(pause)

[00:41:00]

(pause)

CLIENT: I've sort of-particularly with my siblings, who are kind of a wide range of ages, my youngest brother was a junior in high school and my older sister is a couple years older than I am, so big spread.

Pretty good with my siblings; I guess I have been in fairly loose contact with them for the last several years, because I've been in different states. I went away to college and that sort of (inaudible at 00:41:44). We're at different colleges and that's sort of distant in itself; but then, I went to Illinois, everyone else was in Texas, so it's a ways. [00:42:00]

In some sense, that hasn't changed a great deal, recently. I think I've actually had less contact with them... On average, across the last year, than usual, but...

(pause)

That's maybe less true now than it was six month ago or something.

(pause)

[00:43:00]

(pause)

CLIENT: My parents, I sort of talk to one of them every week, more or less. Often, not both of them in the same week, just (inaudible at 00:43:27). Or I'll call or (ph) they'll call and I'll talk to one of them, and then we've talked for a while and that's that.

I guess I'm sad about the state of my relationship (inaudible at 00:43:48), because I want to be closer to my family, but I'm not (ph). Mostly, I want to be physically closer, because it's difficult to keep in touch with a large number of people from a large distance. I'm not particularly good at it. [00:44:02] A lot of people are that good at communicating in short bursts or via a large number of telecommunication devices and I just don't have the time or energy to manage that, so... It becomes another thing to manage or do not. I think that is helpful, I don't know.

THERAPIST: I think maybe one of the reasons it came into my mind is I wondered if you're feeling isolated.

CLIENT: Yeah, sorry. I had it in my mind to finish what I was saying differently, to address that and say, "Yes, I do feel isolated." I do feel alone. That was particularly difficult this weekend.

(pause)

[00:45:00]

CLIENT: My best friend Franco is also in Andover, I've mentioned him several times. That's really good. I still see him a couple of times a week, we have good relationship.

That's about my only regular contact with anyone else, [laughs] other than I guess I talk to my advisor, we video-conference once a week.

(pause)

CLIENT: That's a strange relationship. I'm not sure that Kevin (ph) thinks about me in between me seeing him once a week.

(pause)

THERAPIST: I realize that we're actually going to need to stop for today.

CLIENT: Okay. [00:46:00]

THERAPIST: I will see you next Wednesday.

CLIENT: Okay. Thank you.

THERAPIST: Okay, take care.

CLIENT: You, too.

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