TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

[beginning at 2:20]

CLIENT: Good morning.

THERAPIST: Good morning.

CLIENT: So one of the strange things about sitting over here every week is I spend time during the week thinking about what I will talk about with you. And it in part is a way of like thinking about what is going on in my life. So then I get here and it's a game of picking what things to actually talk about, because there's finite time and more things than I could talk about. So that's some of why I never seem to know what to talk about when I show up here. [3:00]

THERAPIST: Because there's a lot to talk about.

CLIENT: Yeah, I think. For whatever that's worth. So we talked some last time about you not being a wizard, or being a wizard or... So I... If I had to make a guess as to why you really were not okay with that description it would be that it seems like a case where I am turning you into some ideal projection of a person, as opposed to like an actual person, and also giving you some set of like roles that you don't actually fill, or something like that. Is that anywhere close to...

THERAPIST: Well, I wouldn't say I wasn't okay with it.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: I might have thought it was interesting to talk about.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Not okay feels like it has a different connotation. "That's not okay. I'm not okay with that."

CLIENT: [laughs] Okay. Fair enough.

THERAPIST: But I mean that-I don't mean to just sort of pick at words, I'm-

CLIENT: No, no, no, I think-

THERAPIST: -I feel that's a big distinction.

CLIENT: Yeah, no, I think that's right. Yeah, I don't... You disagreed with that description. Is that closer to...

THERAPIST: I don't-yeah, I guess-I am not a wizard, that is true. So I disagree-

CLIENT: [laughs]

THERAPIST: I [overtalk] the fact that I am a wizard. But I also want to know more about your experience of my being wizard.

CLIENT: Okay. [5:00]

THERAPIST: So if that feels like it's in your experience, or sort of among the realm of possibility or ideas, then I certainly don't want to discourage that.

CLIENT: Okay. Okay, that's interesting. [pause] Yeah, it's a very strange experience to talk about our conversations with you after they've happened, because we sort of leave some pieces of them differently. Even though we leave many pieces I think in similar places when we talk about them later. At any rate, so I have a better formulation of why I think you're a wizard, so I'm going to share that with you.

So Picasso describes art as a form of magic that mediates between the cruel world and ourselves. That's more or less his language. So... Okay, I see you have a lot of fairly modern art, so there's a... [pause] So a description of a shaman is someone who's like gone through the bad place and come out the other side and has wisdom. It's in some sense like an equivalent of Plato's cave dweller who's come into the light and comes back, but without the like the people in the cave totally reject that person thing. So kind of one of the ways one gets to be a shaman is by doing a lot of drugs, but that's... But there's this idea that one has to go through the negative experiences or the dark place in order to have access to some greater truth, or come back with some wisdom and share that with other people. [8:10]

I have no idea whether you have done that or been there, other than I know that you have a side to you which is itself probably some sort of dark place because it's got to be similar to a Ph.D., and I know a lot of people who have those or are working on them. But I do feel like you have a lot of insights into the nature of people, and into my experiences, and presumably into the experience of others, or else you wouldn't have your own business where you do that. So it's in that context that I think wizard is a description of those traits, without weighing in on the shamanic aspect. So anyway. I feel like that's a lot more defense of a little bit off-handed remark than maybe it was worth, but-

THERAPIST: It's interesting, I was thinking back to your comment, your quote by Picasso, which is very interesting.

CLIENT: Yeah, I liked it. The Texas Museum of Fine Arts had a visiting Picasso exhibit and they put that on the wall as one of their quotes. It's a little bit hard to find the exact wording of it elsewhere, but it was something like that. [pause] Whether he said cruel or hostile, or both actually. But kind of an interesting...

THERAPIST: Well, I guess if there's one's self and the cruel world there better be something that mediates those two. [10:30]

CLIENT: [pause] Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think that... that's a relatively simple way of explaining an enormous range of human actions and experiences. So yeah, I think it's true.

THERAPIST: [inaudible] [sneezes] Excuse me.

CLIENT: Bless you.

THERAPIST: Thank you.

CLIENT: [pause] My undergraduate advisor was a funny guy in a straight-man sort of way. [You're aware? 12:01] that when one retires one gives a final lecture. And so the final lecture he gave was on myths of science. Which actually caused some outrage in the department, because one of the [assists?] said, "Well, you can't call that a myth of science, it's not a myth." Unfortunately, if he'd like seen the talk he would have understood the word in a different sense, myth in the sense of like a thing that imbues the world with a higher reality, a way of explaining things that reveals rather than hides truth, gets to the essence of a matter. Anyway. So I guess I worked for a long time with that guy, I feel that view of the world rubbed off a little bit of many of the things that we do-science or art or whatever-it has that function. [long pause, over one minute] [14:15]

So I realized yesterday that I'm defending my dissertation in ten weeks, which means that I have to write my dissertation, or finish writing it. [pause] And also that it would probably be nice to have a job after that. So those things are weighing on me a little bit.

THERAPIST: I would think so, yeah. We haven't talked in a couple of weeks about what you want to do when you're done. [15:00]

CLIENT: Yeah. So I'd sort of come to this place where I thought being a faculty member would be a good thing and something I might enjoy to do. [pause] I guess I'm less sure than I was when I decided that. But I don't have a lot of time to like reconsider infinitely, and I'm not sure that that would do any good anyway. And the next step on the path is to do a post-doc anyway, so it's not like... Yeah, so, and that requires sending out C.V.s and essentially applying to professors that I would want to work with. To which any of them that are interested are going to ask for letters of reference from my advisor and the rest of my thesis committee. So I asked my advisor to write a letter of reference for me. He likes me, and eventually will finish writing the letter, but he still hasn't finished writing the letter. Which I knew was going to happen Which is why I asked him for it before I sent out the applications, because I have seen him not have a letter ready for students that he liked and it really can get close to be a problem in the job search process. [17:00]

So like I'm in this position of waiting for him to do this thing that he's agreed to do and is willing to do but he isn't doing. I don't know why he hasn't done it yet, he had a-the grant that funds most of our research group was up for renewal, the application deadline was like yesterday. So I don't know why he didn't do it, but this has been-you know, I'm just a little frustrated by it. [pause] Yeah, I guess I'm not surprised at all about it, but I'm frustrated by it, so.

THERAPIST: It sounds like how you feel about Tanya. [18:00]

CLIENT: [laughs] Doesn't it? Although there's some surprise there too, right. Like I guess was surprised to have [unclear 18:07] or something. [pause] You know, I feel like it becomes reasonable to wonder like are my feelings about Tanya coloring my judgment of this situation. On the other hand, I think it's just a frustrating situation, so I don't-

THERAPIST: Why? How did you getWhen I said it sounds like how you feel about Tanya your mind went to, are my feelings about Tanya coloring this? I didn't-

CLIENT: I didn't-sorry, I didn't say you said that.

THERAPIST: But that was where your mind went, that's interesting.

CLIENT: Well, it's sort of like I said yes first, because yes I think that's right, I think there's a real similarity there. But...

THERAPIST: In a sense that implies that your experience, you're not only saying they're similar, but you're actually saying that like your experience with Tanya in this way of negative experience is essentially infiltrating the way you see other things. Right? That's kind of a version of what you said.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. I'm wondering that, not saying it. But yeah. [pause] It's not a very testable hypothesis though, right, so I don't know what to do about it.

THERAPIST: Maybe, but it doesn't matter, because that's-your mind is making that kind of connection.

CLIENT: Hm.

THERAPIST: Versus other connections it could make. [20:00]

CLIENT: Hm. [long pause] So we had a second session with Dr. Jannis, Monday I guess, so. I like him, Tanya likes him, I think he's good for us. So thank you.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I have observed that-and others have concurred-that at the end of therapy sessions it's a sort of common practice to give a sort of wrap up, go-out-the-door-sort of thing to think about. Not that that's always done, but it's certainly a thing. So his sumTanya, "Here's a thing that you can do to make your lives better." This week was he suggested to Tanya that she could work to have a better sense of like how dire her situation is at any time. And I could-like I can't give a charitable description of it now, I'm sorry, but essentially I could work to be less frustrated in my life. Which is... [laughter] ...incredibly frustrating advice, because it's not like I feel like I'm seeking out frustration in my life. You know, it's sort of the correct like macro level description of what I need to do, but it's... You know, I think his wording was closer to like "identify things that you could make better," but even that is-it doesn't feel very different to me. It's sort of like, "Here's the macro level problem, it has a like zero'th order approximation of how to solve it, figure out what's wrong and then solve it." Thank you. [sarcastically] So...

THERAPIST: So that was extremely useful to you.

CLIENT: Yeah, but here's the thing, right. Like I don't think that that-I find those sumTanya wrap ups amusing in most contexts, because sometimes they're very helpful and sometimes like there's a real powerful insight there. But I think there's also a... It's like when I go to church with Tanya, the Episcopalians have this very set rhythm to the way they do their services, and it ends with a like send-you-out-into-the-world thing. Sort of a, you change what you say, but it's always got that like, "And now take this out into the world and do it." And so I feel like there's a similar thing there of like you have to say something in order for both parties to feel like it's been a therapy session or something. [23:30]

I feel like I can't actually talk as much about this as I am now because I feel like when I talk about my feelings about this sort of thing it may perturb how you feel like you should handle me. But I'm not actually trying to say that you should handle me any different.

THERAPIST: That is a... Well... That might be a projection, what you just said.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Because I don't take what you say as directives. Or even implicit directives, or potential directives.

CLIENT: [laughs]

THERAPIST: But maybe you takeBut I think maybe this is true, that you sort of take what you hear and try to make it a directive or an action plan at times. Like, "What am I going to do with this? Or maybe this is because I should be something differently." I don't know. I certainly don't feel that way.

CLIENT: Yeah, but so if I said, you know, "Dr. Jannis did this thing and I really hated it, I hate it when that thing is done in a therapy session," you wouldn't think, "Do I do that thing?"?

THERAPIST: Maybe, but that's not what would be essential.

CLIENT: Interesting.

THERAPIST: (a) I would then think about, if I did do that thing, why was it difficult for you to talk to me directly about it? So then there was some anxiety about bringing it up directly, and that anxiety would be what I would focus on. [25:00]

CLIENT: [laughs]

THERAPIST: And then I also would just be wondering about why you hate it, not that, "Oh, I should not do that anymore." I should not do that anymore would not come to my mind.

CLIENT: Interesting.

THERAPIST: I would want to know why you're feeling the way you are. And maybe I'd do something differently, I don't know. But I wouldn't just sort of instantly think, "Okay, I'm going to do this differently now."

CLIENT: Thanks, that's very interesting. [long pause] So I'm not particularly fussed by that, in the sense that like the session was still a very good one, and a few seconds of frustrating advice at the end doesn't alter a good session. But so I think the advice came out of a view that my general frustration with my life situation, particularly as it relates to Tanya, colors my response to my small interactions with Tanya. So yeah. [pause] That's where my mind went between different sources of similar frustration. [27:00]

THERAPIST: There are a lot of things you're frustrated about, and that we I think should continue to talk about, maybe talk more about. Wizards are great because they can just undo your frustration because they're wizards.

CLIENT: [laughs]

THERAPIST: They're awesome. When I think about your frustration in the most global sense it's like this is not how things were supposed to have turned out, this is not how things were supposed to be. And I don't really know what to do about that, but that is a fact, the fact that I have that feeling. [28:00]

CLIENT: [pause] Yeah, I think that's really right. I sort of paused there at your choice of "supposed to be," because I think that's a deliberate choice. Because it sort of speaks to me as having some ideal of what's going to happen. But I think there's also a sense of like expected, in addition to this is not what was supposed to be. This is not what I expected, this is not what I wanted. And those are other layers thatI guess part of that is to say that like, even if I didn't have this problem with something ideal not good, that issue, it's still not a good situation thing. If that makes sense.

THERAPIST: How do you see the difference between supposed to be and expected? How do you distinguish those in your mind?

CLIENT: [pause] So you can sort of estimate the likelihood of any outcome. Not necessarily well. People are very bad at it, and I'm not good at it at all. We've talked about that at some length. But you have to think of the possibility in order to assign an expectation value to it. Like to have a probability for it you have to have thought of it. And we're not really on a map that I knew existed in some sense, like thought I could end up here or something. So it's a little bit different then just like I feel like our lives were supposed to go this way, and like we had this goal and it was all going to work out in exactly this fashion. So like I don't even see the possibility that failing in this existed. Is that any sort of meaningful distinction?

THERAPIST: [pause] Like what's supposed to be shapes the expectation? [31:00]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I'm not sure if that's what-

CLIENT: Yeah, I think that's right. So it's like you could pick like it was supposed to go this way, and that bounds you to expecting this range of outcomes, and we're outside of that range of outcomes. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Well, I think the issue of frustration goes back to something I said a few weeks ago that you find very helpful, and I told you, you know, there's sort of two possible alternate outcomes. One is, you know, you make due with and maybe find joy in the aspects of your relationship with Tanya and your outside life. Or you say this just simply is not enough of what I need-too much of what I don't need-and I'm going to part ways. Both of those mean that you've worked through a lot of frustration. Those are non-frustrated decisions. Those are decisions based on having worked through the frustration. And so to put it maybe the converse is, part of the reason that you're not able to go on one of those paths right now is because you're feeling so frustrated. But neither of those two are what they were supposed to be. Neither of those two should ever have been options anyway.

CLIENT: [pause] Yeah, I think that's right. Yeah, I think that's right. The last part, the part about not being able to go on either-the part where those being like not frustrated decisions I don't-

THERAPIST: Well, you've moved beyond some level of frustration to being able to make that decision, I should say that.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: That they're not decisions made out of frustration. Those are post-frustration decisions, "Okay, this is now what's available to me."

CLIENT: Right. [pause] How do I move from where I am to a place where that's possible?

THERAPIST: Well, we have a lot more to talk about in terms of your frustrations. Your disappointment and your disillusionment. Your anger. And you're angry at Tanya, you are angry with her. You're angry about her, you're angry with her. You're angry at the unfolding of your lives over the last year. [33:45]

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. [long pause] So there was a moment in the couples counseling session, Tanya sort of described the things that she thought I might be angry about. And then everyone sort of-both of them sort of like in a sense turned to look at me, "Is that really-is that the case?" And... [pause] Yeah, there's a whole lot of complicated things going on in there. Because yeah, I still feel like my emotions can damage Tanya in ways that are like not controllable. Which obviously is true, I just said yes to you. Like I'm-you know, yes I am angry with Tanya, I'm angry about everything. I mean, you have described how I feel. [pause] [36:00]

I think I acknowledged that it was largely the case, but I didn't want to talk about it there. The only explanation that I have been able to come to since then is a feeling of like I am so angry that I don't feel like she gets to... [pause] I mean, I don't feel like she gets to just show back up and have access to my deepest feelings. It's not how this works. Like relationships are built on some sort of trust and intimacy and so forth, and the sharing of feelings goes with that, it doesn't come with just like being in the hypothetical state of relation. So.

THERAPIST: Were you able to say that?

CLIENT: That last part? No, I've only just articulated that now.

THERAPIST: That's a weird analogy, because I in no way feel that you experience Tanya as a parent. But the analogy that had is like some dad or mom taking off for a year or so, and then showing back up, "Hi, I'm home!" And you're supposed to be like, "Oh, hi mom. Let's just be in a relationship now." [38:00]

CLIENT: Yeah. And I think it's actually a really apt analogy, because I feel like that's been Tanya's experience of her own mother.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And so maybe that's apt in a weird way, but like-

THERAPIST: It's very interesting. Certainly not by her design, but something somehow is being replicated from her own experience in your relationship together, in maybe an ironic way, but maybe not. She's not able to-even though she knows what it feels like to be on the receiving end of that she's not able to identify that you've had that experience with her.

CLIENT: You know, and I think I have mentioned... I think I have like pointed out that analogy before some months ago to her. [pause] Yeah, I said that in response to the last thing you said, now I've lost exactly why that seemed relevant, but... [long pause] So that sort of sent me towards thinking about like one of the difficulties in the whole thing is that like she doesn't remember a bad time because of the ECT. Like it's largely gone. [pause] So I don't think that analogy canMaybe that's the point, I'm not sure that analogy can like really be understood for her, because the part of her memories that she still more or less has access to has like-she was still trying. Because I think there's a, I don't know, useful description of the situation in which she turns into a different person when it's really bad. [41:00]

THERAPIST: But she can understand that intellectually. I understand emotionally, but intellectually you can understand. If you have no memories of something you therefore sort of by definition cannot be there for other people in addition to your husband you are-you are not present. That is something intellectually that I think she could understand.

CLIENT: Sure, sure.

THERAPIST: Even if she can't understand what that experience might be. But then she might be able to understand that experience by virtue of trying to relate it to her own experience.

CLIENT: Right. [pause]

THERAPIST: I was thinking-one of the things that you've talked about in terms of not wanting to disclose, it basically goes along with what you're saying now really, that you talk to her about your feelings because you're worried about them damaging her. And the other thing is, you don't have a right to know how I feel. You know, you have a right to know that I'm angry. You thought you had given up those rights.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, certainly those are... When it's not one it's the other, right?

THERAPIST: Or maybe it's both at the same time.

CLIENT: Right. Yeah, I think that's probably more accurate in a lot of cases. But then I feel like there's the question in my position of what do I do. Standing by either of those views perpetuates the problem in some sense.

THERAPIST: Right. [43:00]

CLIENT: Like if she's saying, "Well, I want to be there for you," and I just say no, well, she's still not there for me. But I'm not sure that's her fault at this point.

THERAPIST: Well, it's a process of the two of you talking about her knowing how hurt you feel, and how much you don't want to even share with her you're hurt because you feel so in a sense betrayed, and what the two of you can do about that. That's the kind of-that's the conversation.

CLIENT: Hm. [pause]

THERAPIST: And the conversation is, how do you build trust and what are each of your roles in that, because you both have a role. You have a role of gradually over time allowing yourself-if you want to, if you want to take this path-of taking baby steps to trust her, in response to your feeling that she is understanding you, understanding the extent to which you feel deeply betrayed, and really appreciating that on an emotional level and making efforts to create an environment where you feel you can trust her. So it's both of those parts.

CLIENT: Hm. [pause]

THERAPIST: But in my mind that's the kind of dialog that needs to take place for you to move on in this relationship. [pause] This was-were actually not at least consciously intentional, but we do need to stop. So those were not intended to be parting words, but okay. [laughter] I will-or I may have asked you this already. Is it okay, and do you want me to talk to Dr. Jannis, sort of touch base with him? Or would I just hold off and we can talk about it?

CLIENT: It is definitely okay.

THERAPIST: Okay. [45:15]

CLIENT: Yeah, I guess was unsure how much you had talked to him already, because you sort of like had contacted my-

THERAPIST: Yeah, not very much.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: You know, just very-not very much. I mean, so if you want to-I don't like to ask questions at the very end of a session.

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: So if you want to table it till next time we can talk about that too.

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: You want to do that? Okay. Okay, great. Then I'll see you next week.

CLIENT: Okay.

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