TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: You had mentioned yesterday that I was describing what was happening more than how I was feeling about it with my mom and various people.

THERAPIST: I kind of get the feeling that you thought I'm supposed to have the reaction? Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: I mean you aren't, but that's sort of how it feels.

CLIENT: I don't know. When I think about it, maybe. I think it's not exactly that I want you to be angry on my behalf so much as I want, I think affirmation or confirmation that how I feel is reasonable.

THERAPIST: That is more the sense that I get. I mean there are people who are kind of like can you believe this? They kind of want you on their side. That's not so much the feel it has to me, but more so what you're saying is like yeah, okay, he's annoyed. So it makes sense that I'm annoyed. [00:01:40]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You have to trust that reaction.

CLIENT: Like when I first realized that Chet had off for the week. I based my assertions on that you were going to be here for a while and then went up to the librarian and was like did that make sense? Was that crazy? What?

THERAPIST: That's annoying, right?

CLIENT: Yeah. I'm like don't your managers tell you things?

THERAPIST: It's not like I'm completely furious and you need to be on my side on this. It's more like this isn't me, right? He's being whatever.

CLIENT: Yeah. Exactly. I was really furious.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: (inaudible) I guess, so one of the things I was thinking about was, we did a, the panel that I was on was called moding 201.

THERAPIST: Moderating? [00:03:00]

CLIENT: Yeah. The 101 is the basics. This was like what do you do when your panel goes rogue? What do you do if someone heckles? We talked about horrible examples and things that we have done. While I was sitting there people started listing things and I was thinking well, usually as a moderator I try to sit in the middle of like say five people. I watch people's body language and the audience's body language. If someone's like how can you tell if a question is going really wrong? I said usually the whole room kind of goes and I know more than once on a panel I've like grabbed and punched my hands and had someone say don't worry, it will be okay. That's the reaction. It's how people react. I was thinking about it. Oh right, I'm surrounded by a lot of nerds who are crap at that which leads to a lot of situations where I'm just sort of like I'm pretty sure that normally we don't do it that way. [00:04:20]

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: The person is really insistent they are right which is also very (inaudible). Then I have people who say I'm pretty sure I am the more normally socialized one here, but this is very confusing. Not just the gamer. I don't know. I do spend a lot of time, I spend time in the workplace or if I'm talking to. I hate that on the phone I can't see the other person and I really want to see their body language and it drives me pretty bat shit. I'm having a very hard time communicating with people who are autistic because they are not giving me any signs and I find it very disconcerting and confusing and just difficult in general. [00:05:40]

Of course, being involved in a liberal gay politics whatever stuff, I have done a lot of, I have facilitated discussions with multiple facilitators. So you don't have lines of power or checking in how they feel about what is going on. I guess to me a big part of just normal communication involves watching the other person and picking up on not just the words they say. So, with Chet it's, I mean there's a lot of things with Chet. One of them is I feel like I'm doing all these things. Then I'm trying all the ways to communicate the information and he doesn't take it in. Then or his response is to be confused and be like I don't understand what you're saying which is, I don't know. It's very frustrating because for all that everyone says they are excellent at communication, I think I'm pretty good at communication. So I guess it was just that moment of so I think we fundamentally disagree and you're in a position of power, but you won't admit it. [00:07:50]

Yeah. Which is not... I think what a lot of what I was feeling, I felt like things were out of control. I don't generally think of myself as being controlling, but I like, I don't know. I like some things to be controlled. Like dinner or something else I can't think of. I just constantly felt like I was about the lose control of the situation or that I kind of had the feeling of like getting sucked up in something and like I want to go to the right and everyone else is going to the left. The crowd swept me to the left. I also felt like I wasn't doing a very good job of communicating with people or talking to people. Communicating. [00:09:30]

THERAPIST: It's the way that you are very worried about having the experience like being lost. Like being sort of dropped in the crowd and not being able to say or do anything about the way you wanted it to go. Where you're coming from with Chet gets lost for whatever reason. I mean with the panels as well, sort of going off the rails and there's sort of scariness about that. You're worried about that.

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:11:00]

THERAPIST: Part of this starts being body language and being something you can't deal with on the phone. Partly being very attentive to that in order to know best how to speak to the other person so that they will get where you're coming from. I think part of it is the worry it that you're going to get tossed.

CLIENT: Yeah. I think it's also, like along with being able to I guess. I want to get across whatever it is that I'm thinking. I feel like part of that is the other person acknowledging that in some way. So not too extreme like I hear that you said this. Something like oh, yes, I have heard these words you said and I have some kind of response. (pause) [00:12:30]

I don't know. One of my coworkers was saying that she would have preferred the library transition and just said we're a dictatorship. Suck it up. Then to ask for feedback. Oh yeah, totally. If the answer is it doesn't matter what you say it's alright we're just going along.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I was talking to someone again about the ideas that I have for getting people to use expensive (inaudible) and the person I was talking to today, probably because I just sort of sat down and said hi. We're talking now. [00:14:00]

So, she can like or whatever. (pause) It gets in this weird place where I want to communicate directly and be like yes, but I don't want to use a 2x4 and then there's that moment of okay, I sort of softened the bluntness and I can't tell if the other person is like yes, I hear your subtle bluntness or if they're like nope, nope. Didn't hear anything. Which I find so frustrating. [00:15:00]

I'm just like we're wasting time. Life has social methods which are a fact of life. I guess it feels both rude and inconsiderate not to say my feelings are hurt, but my doing my job is hurt by spending time talking to someone who won't, isn't going to listen to what I say. Or, if they're listening, even going to acknowledge what I said. [00:16:20]

I can never, I'm never really sure if I'm being naive and idealistic and the idea that I could sit down with someone and say so, I noticed these problems with this. I think one of the problems is that people are really upset about how this happened so I think it would be really helpful if you did something to kind of acknowledge that people are upset and then you offer them support by teaching. I was thinking about the (inaudible) because, you know, everyone is pissed about it. I said you should somehow acknowledge that in some way and then be, instead of saying just teach differently, help people teach differently. [00:17:20]

Acknowledge that it doesn't do it, but kind of does. I feel like I'm saying it in a not real complete way, but it doesn't seem so hard to be like yeah, so, we got this thing and it doesn't work very well or it doesn't work the way that you planned. I don't know. I get very caught up in people just refusing to acknowledge that, so it doesn't seem that huge as part of the greater conversation. Well, they first person said it would make ponies and I'm not going to make ponies. You know, we have this, so what else can we do with it? [00:18:20]

It's like that or I don't even know. I don't feel like I'm going for radical honestly, but I feel like I'm going for let's talk about what's really happening in a way that's still polite and not argumental and it doesn't go anywhere. Cambridge is not a place that I've worked, but I've worked in many parts of Cambridge and I feel like that level of clarity has worked sometimes. I don't know. I guess, to me, it doesn't seem that hard. You know? (pause) [00:19:30]

Where I sort of end up at the end of these discussions sometimes is wanting to say something like look, you know, you might need it like why I feel like I'm saying the sky is blue and you're saying the sky is green. She's like no, no, no. I'm like okay, but I said to her I do not understand why you are, we're talking about something and you're just like nope. I don't know. I guess it just never, like to me I'm just like... [00:20:30]

THERAPIST: I wonder if explaining it in sort of this moment is like maybe you're wanting to be sort of reacting very clearly about how frustrating and kind of (inaudible) it can be.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean at the end of feeling all this self-doubt over things that like an hour later I'm like no, I'm sure I was right or at least I have a valid viewpoint.

THERAPIST: I think it's more than that as well. Also, the intensity of the frustration that you were feeling.

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:21:45]

THERAPIST: It seems to me as you're talking about how it would be helpful. (pause) [00:22:45]

Yeah. I mean I guess it seems a little bit like when talking to me, it seems like you're pretty clear on what it is and sort of pretty confident that this happens a lot and that generally it's not you. But, where you seem to be less sure is in the initial reaction in that you're not so sure if it's reasonable to have that response.

CLIENT: Yeah. I think the big, some of the, like, I think some of the emotional buttons or areas or whatever. I don't know. The more I think about it, the more I think like well, I would really like someone in the library system who is above me to say something critical about (inaudible) and say well, that kind of sucked. I think that would help tremendously. [00:24:30]

I sort of feel like as I've been on things I'm just like yeah, that that's that big thing that was huge and horrible and I can barely get people to say, to prove to me that something happened and for you to put out an apology and I don't know how to get one. Or, if I could. I think though my attempts to have like open discussions or whatever with management is to maybe like walk backwards in to so while we're having an open and honest discussion and you're actually listening to me, this thing happened. [00:25:30]

Yeah. I mean I don't know if it's like I can't move forward until someone other than me addresses that or what, but I feel like kind of childish saying Michael Henry really hurt my feelings. I'm like, you know, made things really horrible and I really just want to apologize or I would like someone to make me feel bad about that. (pause) [00:26:35]

I mean part of it that well, Karl as fuck is not ever going to come out with that. Chet. I doubt will anything and so it right now I mean like how I can jump, but the further up it gets the more I feel like why does this person, why would this person care about how this one employee feels? (pause) I mean part of it is I guess like if I can't get it from my direct supervisor or the person above that person to say yeah, it sucked. Why would anyone else care? (pause) [00:28:00]

I mean one of the other things that I'm worried about is I'm worried about if they asked or was like hey, can we talk about this? I'm super scared of crying. Like I think this loss of control would be, I think it under minds whatever you're saying to the other person. I don't know what I would do with a direct, right now there is a very clear, implicit we don't like, and we don't like really care how you feel about anything. Go do your job. But, no one has actually said I don't care about your feelings. Go do your job. So, I've worried that bringing it up is going to lead to why are you being so miserable? No one cares or like you should be over this. Why are you talking to me about this? (pause) [00:29:45]

Also, I guess I worry that I will be told why are you holding on to this thing that happened so long ago? He left the library. Why do you still care? Why are you still upset? You know, like, move forward and don't cling to the past. (pause) [00:31:00]

I think I want acknowledgement of my worth as an employee and as a person because I am a person. I don't know. I don't trust, I really don't trust HR to talk about that. I don't really trust Chet very much. I don't trust Karl at all who is the guy in communications. I guess I feel like well, I don't know. Like, I've been an employee long enough where I am at an age where why am I still asking someone else for affirmation? Also, I'd really like some affirmation. (pause) [00:32:30]

I was thinking today I want to talk to Chet about the time totaling. I was thinking I'm going to talk to my dad. He's in HR and what my dad will say is that you should do what your manager says. Wait him out. I don't think that's it. What I wanted my dad to say would be I'm not actually even sure if that's good HR advice. (pause) [00:34:00]

THERAPIST: What I'm wondering about is whether you, putting it rashly is, I think you know you know you're probably never going to get this. I mean you've talked to a lot of people about this. In HR, Chet, Karl, other people you work with. You've talked to the, I forget what her name was. She was the diversity something.

CLIENT: The diversity recruiter.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Like there's somebody. I don't know. I wonder if in holding out this hope is a way of warding off or trying to protect yourself from some of the more negatives in the ways you actually see where you work and how you feel about that.

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:36:00]

THERAPIST: In other words, the focus is on who can you find and where is the next person going to be more so than on how much they let you down and how horrible that has been and how horribly it reflects on where you work.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean I think it just, it seems to me so obviously like not fair, not just and not sensible. To me I'm like wow, this is a lot of crappy things. I am a skilled employee.

THERAPIST: I'm sorry, I'm a what?

CLIENT: I am a skilled employee. These are things I know about.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I don't want my workplace to be that level of toxic, but I think it is that level of toxic. I mean sometimes it feels like the frustration of (inaudible) that they'll believe, like oh, that would be really exciting if we weren't doing it here.

THERAPIST: Oh, oh. I see. [00:37:30]

CLIENT: Yeah. I'm like oh, yes. You're on that committee (inaudible) library and I don't know. (pause) I guess I get in to this so well, then why am I staying which is a lot. [00:38:30]

I guess part of what makes it difficult is that I feel like periodically someone saying something nice I'm like awesome, that's great. That's what I want, but it's going to be horrible and of course softening it. It's like no, you don't know. This time it could be great or contextually different.

THERAPIST: Is there a name for the person telling you that story?

CLIENT: Yeah. To the point where it's totally different. Yeah. It's a mix.

THERAPIST: Or at least, go ahead.

CLIENT: I was talking to someone today about, she's like oh, if you are interested in blah, blah, you should get your, or in this committee that Karl wants to do. I was telling them, I'm like so, here's the problem. This sounds really exciting, but I don't want to do it if it's going to go nowhere and I don't see and I don't know that Karl is the person who is going to go forward with it. [00:40:00]

I don't know. I guess it put her in a very difficult position. So, I was an asshole, but her response was kind of like oh, no but like we're planning it better. You should really, if you're interested, do it. I know better than to do that again, but it's also so tempting because yeah, like, while this coworker, we talked about it and she said you talk for like five minutes about it and like oh, it would be awesome. I'm the one that's repeating in my head like what it would be awesome, but not with whatever.

THERAPIST: Is there any actual chance it would be awesome? I mean we talked about it. I don't think you ever described to me in sort of the people at your workplace that did anything you feel good about. I'm not saying that's never happened, but you haven't described it to me. [00:41:20]

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean my favorite is the measure of reading collection. I get a lot of joy of that because some rich people donated a shit ton of money to the library that can only be used non curricular, fun reading and that was a big pot of money, so I got to be like I think we should buy 20 books by lesbian Latinos and they're like sure. So, I love that.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I really was ridiculously excited to read books out of the collection, but that's completely not my job. That's just a committee that I'm on that I happen to like.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I made up a project for myself that I like. Yeah. I mean the IT work that I have done is satisfying sometimes.

THERAPIST: I'm not saying that your job isn't satisfying. There are some things you enjoy doing there. [00:42:30]

CLIENT: What I was going to say is that I'm essentially cut out of the IT because they're re-organizing and they're making it done and now my actual department has been a cluster fuck. So, yeah. I like people who are in other departments, but not mine and like, you know, and crash the (inaudible). Those kinds of things and I don't think they mind, but it is kind of weird that, like, I don't know. That I don't think, in my most immediate department that I'm just like lazy and incompetent. Incompetent. Leave.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:43:30]

CLIENT: Lazy, incompetent and going nowhere. Chet has the competencies to say when I get a raise at some point, so yeah. I think part of the desire to go on to other communities is to just get out of my department because I feel like other departments do work on some things and are less sucky except I guess the grass is always greener. [00:44:20]

I mean I take your point that it's not like every single thing I do at work is horrible, but you know. There's a lot. Most of the structural things, that like, just like whatever, they don't go well. They don't fill us in too and I often feel like I'm losing people in my department talking about we really need some magic person to do x, y and z and I'm like hey, I can do xy and z and they're like yeah, we really need this magic person. That it's not that, usually it's more like they don't even say anything because I am not the magic person. [00:45:30]

THERAPIST: I think, I just thought about I guess I'm hearing a lot of the shady things you feel about that which I think your interest is in sort of getting something more positive from someone is kind of an effort to look at. I mean it would be great if somebody responded well, but I think you're sort of putting that to a particular use, mainly to put the focus away from how shitty you have been describing feel in the sense that in a variety of ways but that happens consistently and it sucks.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Monday, not Tuesday. And you said Friday was not good, right?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So, I'll let you know if I have anything. Okay?

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't know. Today and yesterday I'm having a hard time getting out of chairs.

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