TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: (inaudible)

[pause 00:00:15 to 00:02:15]

CLIENT: Good morning!

THERAPIST: Morning!

CLIENT: Changed the routine!

THERAPIST: I did?

CLIENT: Yeah, you said I could go on in. That's very definite!

THERAPIST: (inaudible)

CLIENT: (pause) So I'm having a rough time, I think. You know, my marriage is about at the same place it's been, which isn't great but, you know, isn't a change. (pause) I'm supposed to defend my dissertation in eight weeks. But I feel like one of the large pieces of it is unravelling, which is... just very frustrating. And... [00:03:12]

(pause) And it's actually... neither the case that it's completely unravelling nor the case that it's, that it matters that much, whether that piece is there or not. But it's still like, here is this thing that I've worked on for many months now, and thought I had worked out and in a place that I could present it reasonably, just... (sighs) (pause) Just not...

[pause 00:04:05 to 00:04:44]

THERAPIST: Will it hold up, will it postpone when you defend, or will it just be not what you wanted it to be?

[pause 00:04:50 to 00:05:11]

CLIENT: I think only the latter, but that's... (pause) But I think it's sort of an entangled question, rather like... (pause) Yeah, I guess I don't think this piece is essential to defending, so if I just let it go, I can continue on with the other work. But I feel like, it's one of those problems that I always feel like I have... I feel like there is a solution to it that I could access, if I could just figure out what piece of information I was missing. But the...

(pause) It's sort of like the people who, (chuckles) the people who really understood the, exactly what piece I'm missing are mostly dead now, because working inside a theoretical framework that's 50 years old and no one tries to handle this particular type of problem in this fashion presently, not because it doesn't work, or didn't work, but because there... Essentially, you can log a set of things into a computer and get an answer, and that's easier, so that's what people do.

(pause) It's actually not easier. There is an entire like, subfield of people who just do that, so they understand. It's sort of like... I drifted outside of my expertise by a lot, and am scrambling to find any piece of anything that I can hold onto it by. So anyway, it's not that essential, in some sense; like, I should just let it go, but... It's a problem I've worked on for a long time, and having an answer to it would be helpful, or I would like having an answer to it; I'm not sure which is really true. I think there is actually an open question in this particular area of the literature, that answering it would be helpful to the other ten people who care about this question.

[pause 00:08:17 to 00:10:10]

I guess I feel like this, the particular, working in academia in the way that I do is sort of like... being presented with a very open-ended, "Can you answer this question?" And it's really something more like, "Can you answer this question under this specific set of constraints?" Like given some finite amount of time, and resources, and the knowledge you already have, can you answer this question. But that's, (chuckles) that's sometimes not how I respond to it, I think.

THERAPIST: (pause) Well, I think you're talking also about your marriage and your life. [00:11:26]

CLIENT: (heavy sigh) Um... That seems likely, but I wasn't thinking about it, like at the front, in the last thing that I said. I have certainly felt... the analogy other times, but...

THERAPIST: (pause) Well, the way I thought of it is, you have these questions. What you said before, about this piece of your dissertation, and I asked whether it would postpone getting done or it would get done, but just would leave something out. And to me, that seemed very analogous (client chuckles) and like, is this necessary or is it just, would it feel good to have sort of this piece figured out that is not, probably won't be figured out. And then this issue of wanting, not wanting constraints, the constraints that you have on some of the questions, to be able to respond to them or answer them in a good enough way, or satisfying enough way. [00:12:47]

CLIENT: Yeah, I think that's definitely true. (pause) So I spent many hours yesterday dealing with a computer glitch where it like... this has nothing to do with my thesis, just every time my computer tries to make a secure connection, it dials a remote server in the middle of Texas (I don't know why), and then doesn't get a response. So it hangs up for a while, so everything is just bogged down, which again, sounds kind of analogous. It can point to what's happening, but I can't fix it and invested a lot of time, know what's happening, but still keeps bogging things down. [00:13:40]

There was another reason to say that, about the analogy. Oh, so I think that part of what I was trying to point to in that description of the particular constraints on the question, but feeling like an unconstrained question. It hangs me up, in a similar way, like... If I were working in industry, the question would be, "Can you solve this problem to this degree in two weeks?" And if the answer is no, the answer is no, and you move on.

But that's not the way it works. I have to set the time boundary, but there are no clear rules for setting the time boundary. A lot of people just set it at, "Eh! I've worked on this hard enough!" I don't have a default, "No, that's enough" thing. Like I have the feeling of, "Oh, my God! This is terrible!" But I don't have the, "No, no; cut it off" response. (pause) So, anyway, I guess all of the analogies still hold in some way, but... [00:15:00]

THERAPIST: You're very frustrated in a lot of areas of your life, because things are not going the way you want them to go, and the way you worked toward them going. (client affirms) And then, I guess, one question that you're faced with is, "What do you do about that, then?"

CLIENT: Right, right. And certainly my (chuckling)... a lot of my normal response is, "Well, work harder! That will fix it!" Because that often does fix it.

[pause 00:15:40 to 00:15:58]

THERAPIST: Well, it may fix it, if you frame the problem corr , in the right way.

[pause 00:16:01 to 00:16:21]

CLIENT: Yeah, I think there is a real gem of truth in that, but I think that part of it is that the longer you work on a problem, the more likely you are to frame it in the correct way, if you keep changing the way you frame it. Of course, if you frame it the same way and just keep working on it, that way you're never going to get to the right way unless that was right the first time, so...

THERAPIST: Well, you said that you weren't doing well. Are you talking about the things that are upsetting you? (inaudible) (blocked)

CLIENT: I think so.

THERAPIST: No, I just wanted to make sure it was (client affirms) (inaudible) (blocked) association. [00:17:00]

CLIENT: Yeah, I feel like I've led with the thing that I feel most upset about, whether that's actually the thing that's contributing the most or not, I don't know, but I think it is. (pause) At least to my immediate frustration, or something, so...

(pause) I guess I haven't listed, you know, concerns about what am I going to do after I finish this, what future, (sighs) what future can I have, and what future will I have, not much (ph). Again, sound like similar questions across many areas of my life. [00:18:00]

THERAPIST: You mentioned last week that you were frustrated with Dr. Jannis, well at least, on a couple of points, and that you were going to meet with him and I was wondering how that went.

CLIENT: That went well, actually. It went very well. (pause) I sort of expressed to him how I... how I was hearing the particular things he had said, what I felt like I was hearing. He just sort of said that that was not what he meant to be conveyed. You know, that's an interesting conversation to have. (therapist affirms) It went fine. [00:19:03]

(pause) We kind of continued talking from there, because that's, you know, one of those sort of intake, get to know both patients separately, or both people and the couple of separately, too, sorts of things. So he... I get the sense that he sees me as an interpreting many of my experiences, particularly with Tanya in the last year, in the light of previous traumas or something like that, which seems to make sense, whether it's, you know... I felt like we've talked about that (therapist affirms), before all (inaudible) and I'm not sure what else to say there. [00:20:10]

THERAPIST: And when you say in light of, then how do you sort of think he's thinking, or how do you think about, you know, what is that thought, I mean, that thought process? Because that implies a certain kind of meaning to what's going on with you and Tanya now.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. (pause) Right. So, I sort of feel like she... you know, just quit on me and that has broken most of the trust that I had (which, again, we've talked about a lot). But he interprets in some sense, in light of having been a part of this religious organization and having large breach of trust there. (pause) Yeah, I guess I don't have a clear sense of what that... what that means, other than like, he... (pause) Sorry, I'm not sure I'm answering the question. [00:21:39]

THERAPIST: You're doing fine.

CLIENT: Okay. (pause) Yeah, I guess I said that our marriage was in the same place, but that might not actually be true. It seemed true when I said it, but that might not actually be true. I guess I feel like Tanya is getting worse again. I don't know that that's true, and...

THERAPIST: (pause) What makes you feel that?

[pause 00:22:24 to 00:22:48]

CLIENT: I feel like she's had... more bad days... per week in the last few weeks than she was a few weeks before. (pause) I don't know what confidence level to attach to that. I... So, I guess... yeah, but... (pause)

So she had been going directly from seeing Chad on Mondays to the couples' counseling on Mondays, which doesn't sound like a great idea, but that's how the scheduling worked out. So, Monday she just... couldn't really be present for the session, in a like normal sense. We spent more time like, talking about what it meant for her to be there at that moment, and how that affected our relationship. So that was, I guess in some sense, a very useful thing. [00:24:19]

THERAPIST: But it sounds pretty intense. (client affirms) (pause) Do you connect with her unhappiness? Does it resonate with you?

[pause 00:24:46 to 00:25:04]

CLIENT: I don't know. (pause) I think I definitely used to, in some sense, like... (pause) Yeah.

[pause 00:25:30 to 00:51]

THERAPIST: Used to...?

CLIENT: (pause) Yeah, I think in some sense, it used to resonate with me.

THERAPIST: And then what changed?

[pause 00:26:07 to 00:26:26]

CLIENT: We got outside of my frequency range, with which I could resonate. We've moved to... She was really, really bad.

THERAPIST: (pause) So what changed is the intensity of her unhappiness, and then you could no longer relate.

CLIENT: I think so? Maybe not just intensity, maybe kind also. (therapist affirms) At least that's the way I talk about it, but maybe they're the same. You know, maybe it's just, it was an intensity that I couldn't relate to.

[pause 00:27:12 to 00:27:36]

And then coming (ph), you know, that's been a while now since that was the point where we were at. So coming back, I feel like I have tried to separate my mood from hers more, both to recognize that I'm not responsible for her mood and also to like, continue functioning, despite what her mood is. I mean, you seem to have the ability to (chuckles) listen and connect with me, and then continue with your life. I certainly don't have that, so it's, in that particular relationship with Tanya.

[pause 00:28:31 to 00:29:20]

THERAPIST: What are you thinking about?

CLIENT: Um... I was thinking about this being an interesting line that I don't think we've touched on in this particular way before; or at least I don't, it doesn't feel very familiar, but it's interesting. So I was thinking about is there, is there anything else involved in it? I don't know. You know, maybe I'm afraid that if I do get back in resonance with her, I will stay in resonance when it gets worse; I don't know. Like it, it's hard, it's painful to... to be there and, it's just, it's... bad a lot of the time for her, so... [00:30:31]

THERAPIST: In my mind, I agree that this isn't, most certainly for me, as formulated it, it's more formulated now than it is in the past, this particular line of thinking. That wasn't where my mind went. It went more kind of a differential (chuckles), sort of a differential diagnostic question, to put it really very, kind of crudely. But my first thought is, or one of the things I've been thinking about is, one of the ways you described being drawn to Tanya (or the two of you being drawn to each other), which is sort of a kind of disappointment or disillusionment with academia and maybe other things. But certainly this joint experience about, in a sense being unhappy (chuckles), not globally, but in particular areas and understanding that about each other. Then just the thinking about that as the beginning point, sort of understanding then how your relationship unfolded from that point. [00:31:35]

And I thought more about the comment I made about Nazi Germany. Do you remember that comment? (client affirms) And how I sort of made it glibly, like, "Well, maybe that's not the best way to join, around, you know, to join about disliking a couples' therapist." And then I started thinking about maybe all of the other layers of meaning in that, given that I'm certainly not implying that the two of you were joined around being, you know, Nazis; but that I did wonder some of what brought you together was potentially problematic in the long run, about being joined together against, against! You know, period.

[pause 00:32:17 to 00:32:42]

CLIENT: That is a very interesting suggestion.

[pause 00:32:46 to 00:34:00]

But I guess I have got, kind of, three directions I'm curious in. One is, I feel like that particular description has like, has potential long-term ramifications for our relationship, Tanya's and mine. One is a question of whether... Say that's true, like that that's how we first connected and that's not particularly helpful. But if we then connected through other ways, does it matter that much? Because it's not like that was, not like our relationship was just, "Ah, we hate everything-together!" I guess the third is kind of more personal, like "What would, what does that say or mean about my particular world view or interpretation of the world or response to the world or something?" [00:35:00]

THERAPIST: This is a bizarre analogy; I'm not sure if this is going to work, but it keeps coming to my mind. (client affirms) I use the analogy, it's like, you know, the two of you like to drink, you know, or smoke pot or something. You know, it was kind of an escape from things, it felt good and it didn't cause any harm. But then, one of you went over the edge.

[pause 00:35:25 to 00:35:39]

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't know if it's going to work either, but it's interesting.

[pause 00:35:41 to 00:36:03]

I feel like that's interesting because, in part, because it... it answers that third point in the, "Eh! It's not that big a deal! That's not the issue" sort of way. I'm not convinced that's true, but...

THERAPIST: I'm sorry; what's...?

CLIENT: That it's true, that the third point is not that big a deal. (pause) I feel like you've also been suggesting that perhaps I would be happier if I interacted with the world a little differently than I do.

THERAPIST: Yes! Yes, and probably happier ultimately, but less frustrated. (pause) This isn't quite the description I'm looking for, and I hope it's okay, but like a little brooding.

CLIENT: Yeah, that's probably fair. (chuckles)

[pause 00:37:12 to 00:37:36]

THERAPIST: The alcohol or pot analogy I came to, came by, is like, there is something, you know, a little indulgent almost about, you know, sitting around and saying the world sucks. It's a little indulgent, and it can be kind of fun! Just be like, "This person sucks, and this person sucks. This is supposed to be a great school, and now it sucks." And it's actually, can feel kind of good, and it's a little, you know, a little bit of that, you know, could bring people together and it's a little indulgent, but, you know... But then you overdose on that. (client chuckles) And you generalize to, "Life sucks and everything sucks" and the whole thing just... Then that's a problem. I'm not necessarily saying that was Tanya's, you know, from A to B kind of thing, but just, you know, the, it's not a perfectly coordinated metaphor.

CLIENT: Yeah, and that's fine.

[pause 00:38:25 to 00:39:00]

Yeah, this is really fascinating, I... (pause) I mean, it's, you know, it's interesting to talk about it, it's indulgent, but I actually do think that there are things wrong with the world, right? Like, that is actually a thing that I believe. I think that, at least some of them can be better, and so there is sort of like a... (pause) Yeah, I don't know.

THERAPIST: For sure.

[pause 00:39:41 to 00:40:30]

CLIENT: I think it's kind of interesting that I keep, I sort of keep pointing to that piece, like the "Are we drinking?" or "What does that part mean?" And you kind of keep pointing to the other piece of, "went too far."

THERAPIST: I'm not sure I follow what you just said.

CLIENT: Oh, okay. I'm sorry. I guess I said it in a lot of shorthand. Um, so I sort of keep, like, you know, the analogy is not exact, it's not like, it wasn't just an indulgent thing to like blow off some steam, but I mean, that's not the important point. You sort of keep coming to the other end of the whole thing, of it went too far, as being... I think the central thing that the metaphor was trying to get at. That's all. I was pointing that out. I don't... I don't know quite what it means, that I keep looking at it, and then kind of looking back to. Well, but it's not an exact analogy, right? So, instead of... because I guess, I don't know how to, I don't know how to grapple with that piece, or something. [00:41:51]

THERAPIST: Well, I guess a related piece is, there is something about Tanya's unhappiness that speaks to you and that you understand. And a piece of that is what brought you together. And, so the differential diagnostic part is, you know, try to understand how much of your unhappiness is because you're in a situation right now, in your marriage right now, that, you know, would make many people deeply unhappy. Or how much of it also is sort of your own, that you bring to it. I know it's a very artificial distinction, but important nonetheless.

Like, for example, you know, this is a little bit too simplistic, but you know, some people might be in this situation, be like, you know, "Life is good and I like life. I don't understand, I can't be with a person who thinks of life as miserable. I don't even understand this. I do not understand this. I can't live with, and I don't even understand how this person operates in the world. It doesn't make any sense to me. I couldn't, I can't live like this, because it just seems so foreign (client affirms), because there are so many good things in life." [00:42:57]

And I'm not saying the, you know, not saying they would then leave, because, you know, they don't care (inaudible), but sort of that, versus being able to resonate somehow with being unhappy about the world or being unhappy, that there is more of it that feels personally resonant. That's two different pictures.

CLIENT: (pause) Yeah, I guess I feel some piece of both. Like, I get the unhappiness with the world, that we do. The suicidality I just don't get. (pause) We've talked about that before, sort of like it, I just don't get it. You know, when they were asking (ph) this sort of question of like I could probably come to understand it, but I'm not sure that I really want to, I'm not sure that's a particularly... healthy thing to come to understand. (therapist affirms) [00:44:08]

(pause) You were also talking about being sort of an artificial distinction between how much of it is just like, "This is a situation, it's very bad, it would make a lot of people unhappy" and how much I bring to that. That's, I feel like that's a question that I, that question I really resonate with. I don't know what the answer is to it, and that weighs on me, I think.

[pause 00:44:44 to 00:45:22]

THERAPIST: Well you, you and Tanya understand about each other that, about not being lighthearted. I don't know what the, you know, the right description of not lighthearted is; serious, something... You don't take things lightly, neither does she. Maybe that's the sort of, the over, you know, you don't take things lightly, but wait a second: she's really not taking things lightly.

CLIENT: (chuckles) That's an interesting way to describe it. I feel like that's become more true over time, I feel like we used to take at least some things lightly, I think. (pause) Yeah, I guess I used to really think we'd take some things too seriously, just as a, you know, as a culture, like that's a problem, some people just take some things too seriously. Sure do seem to take things very seriously now.

THERAPIST: Yeah. You know what, we need to stop for today. (client affirms) Though, I never did touch base with Dr. Jannis yet, but I would like to this week. Is that still okay with you? (client affirms) That's great! Just wanted to check with you. Okay, I will see you next week! Okay, take care!

CLIENT: You, too.

END TRANSCRIPT