TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

(Silence)

THERAPIST: Hi.

CLIENT: Good morning. So I would like to continue our conversation from last week. I think we need to start somewhere else. So during couple's counseling Monday, I told I guess both of them, but I told Tanya that I was thinking about leaving her. So that seemed important to talk about. [00:02:28]

(Silence)

THERAPIST: What was it like to say that?

CLIENT: Hard and terrifying afterwards. [Sort of] (ph) I've said this thing that I've avoided saying for weeks or months, so as not to hurt her. And clearly, it hurt her, and (pause) at the time, she said that she knew. Like, that that was not a surprise to her. She has since revised that to say that, you know, that was more like her worst fear and was one of the many things she used to beat herself up about. (Pause) But that (pause) she felt shocked and betrayed. That was our conversation yesterday. We had (ph) couple's counseling on Monday. Monday night, she said she was scared about the future of our relationship. I don't think I've ever felt closer to her than that moment in the last several weeks, because I actually felt like we were talking about the same relationship. [00:04:30]

[And since it all came out] (ph), I feel like the couple's counseling has been going well. You kind of kept asking about it, and I've kind of said, "Well (ph), it's been fine." That's been about all I've said, but I felt like we've been (pause) dealing with reducing stress, individually and together, in the couple's counseling sessions, and that's been good, but in some sense, it's like it's been until (ph) things have felt better in the sort of immediate sense, but there's still this other big thing that just is there and that we're not talking about. So now (ph) we'll talk about it.

THERAPIST: I've never heard you express that in here either.

(Silence)

CLIENT: Well, I actually didn't mean to be hiding it from you. I actually didn't think I was, so that's very interesting. [00:06:23]

(Silence)

Yeah, I'm not quite sure what to make of that.

(Silence)

THERAPIST: Did you think you had already talked about it?

CLIENT: I felt like we have talked about it as being one of the two possibilities for the future of my life in the yeah. So (pause) yeah. So in some sense, yes. No, I don't think I've said, like, "I'm thinking about this." But...

(Silence)

THERAPIST: It's certainly the idea you more sort of the immediacy of it feels new.

CLIENT: Okay. What do you mean by immediacy?

THERAPIST: Well, as two possibilities and sort of in a general way. General isn't quite the right word. Versus something that's far more specific and on, you know, not on the surface. I don't know. Immediacy is the only word that comes to my mind. Like, "This is something that I might do." It seems to sort of take an idea and make it much more sort of practical and actionable.

CLIENT: Okay.

(Silence)

Yeah, I guess I've been sitting here thinking maybe I use words differently than other people. [I don't know] (ph). In some sense, this brings us (ph) back to the conversation last time, in terms of your talking about I seem to look for some set of rules, and then everything follows from there. So there are two possible outcomes. Everything follows from that. So the practical thing sort of follows immediately, in some sense, for me. But I can see how that's not (pause) in general. [00:10:32]

(Silence)

I guess I also feel like we've talked several times about (pause) you sort of asked if I thought that Tanya thought that I thought about the relationship ending or things like that. And so I feel like this is in that same family of questions, but clearly, I'm wording something differently than you are. If you feel like we haven't talked about that, or I haven't expressed that before.

THERAPIST: Well, it's certainly more direct than you said (inaudible 11:29) expressed yourself.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: And it seems more present than future, if that makes sense. "I might do this, and these are the possibilities," versus, "I'm thinking about doing this." It seems much more I guess that's what I meant by immediacy, is more (pause) really a present focus, rather than a potential focus.

(Silence)

CLIENT: Yes, I said it much more directly here than I said it there. So I haven't actually said that set of words to anyone until that moment. So (pause) yeah, I don't know. I guess the immediacy piece (pause) is interesting, and I think Tanya is probably taking it a similar way, similar like this is a thing that might happen now. But (pause) I'm not quite sure that's what I meant. (Pause) I think I felt (ph) more like, this is a thing that might happen, and I need to not be the only one aware of and acknowledging that in this situation. That I'm (pause) holding something back in order to protect her, but the thing that I'm holding back is getting in the way of actually having a relationship. Because I sort of had this concern that if we spend too long talking about something, that's going to come out. [00:15:06]

(Silence)

CLIENT: I mean, assuming (ph) that's the conversation to have, I'm thinking about leaving my wife, how does that strike you?

(Silence)

THERAPIST: Well, I guess maybe one of the questions in that is how do you feel about that?

CLIENT: Not good, but I didn't yeah, yeah, not good. [00:17:05]

THERAPIST: How do you mean?

CLIENT: So there's one level where I take my vows very seriously. We've talked about that before. So it feels not good in that sense. But it also feels like, I don't know, that there's (pause) there used to be a relationship here that I really, really valued, that was really important to me and that was really good. (inaudible 17:39) So to say that I'm thinking about leaving is in some sense to say (pause) that relationship has gone so far from what it was that I don't recognize it anymore, in some fundamental ways, and I feel like (pause) I guess I feel like I'm not really known, and a few of my needs are met. And I don't see a way to make that better.

On the other hand, one of the reasons that I talked about this in the couple's counseling is that I feel like this is a (pause) the step towards leaving or the step towards fixing the relationship. It looks the same. We have to talk about that set of problems, in some sense. So I don't feel good about it in the sense that that's not a (pause) it's not really where I want my life to be. So it's sort of facing that is how I feel about the circumstances that I'm in is hard.

It's also hard in the sense of, you know, what is it what do I think it says about me, that faced with that set of problems, my response is, "I'm done here"? [00:19:41]

(Silence)

THERAPIST: What do you feel it does say about you?

CLIENT: Yeah, I actually don't know that I know what I feel like it says about me, but I think I am afraid that it says that I am a quitter or something like that.

(Silence)

Yeah, I guess I feel a little bit like large pieces of my identity are tied up in being loyal and not quitting. (Pause) That's the opposite, in some sense.

(Silence)

I also feel like we're a little bit in the abstract again, in the sense that I feel like we've talked about this before, in the context I feel like I'm in the position where I have to be unhappy or a person that I don't want to be. So... [00:22:00]

(Silence)

But I think maybe I'm tired of being unhappy, and so (pause) now we're talking about this.

(Silence)

THERAPIST: What are you thinking about?

CLIENT: I was thinking about what I was going to say when you asked that question. I think the answer is just I'm sad. I'm not really thinking about anything in particular.

(Silence)

THERAPIST: Can you tell me about the sadness? [00:24:20]

CLIENT: I can try. I guess I don't know how to talk about it in some sense, other than, like, I feel sad.

(Silence)

I guess the metaphor that comes to mind I don't know (ph) particularly why is it feels like I'm in a pool of sadness, or something like that. Not drowning in it just in it. (Pause) Yeah. (Pause)

THERAPIST: So is the pool is it water?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. Sort of like a pond in the woods. Kind of dark. Kind of daytime. (Pause) There's probably a house in the distance. I don't know whether anything of that's meaningful, but that's (ph) the sort of (pause) there's the response, if I'm asked to describe it, I guess. [00:26:37]

(Silence)

So I feel like I sound sort of, like, peaceful and gloomy, but that's missing some feature that I still only have the word sadness for.

(Silence)

I guess I'm sort of thinking about what conversation am I going to have with Tanya next, in the context of, you know, if you are surprised by the immediacy of it, then I guess I can't feel like I'm saying something that is communicating a different thing than I mean to be communicating.

THERAPIST: Well, you said something that made an impact on Tanya on Monday.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. [00:29:15]

THERAPIST: Do you feel somehow that you're worried you weren't communicating to her?

CLIENT: I feel worried that I communicated something stronger than I meant to communicate. Like, "I'm thinking that I might leave you next week," or something like that. [That was too] (ph)...

THERAPIST: "I'm thinking about this as a possibility.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. Or even just things are bad enough that I think about this. Maybe (ph) that's just the rephrasing of the possibility thing.

THERAPIST: Do you feel like it's mostly a problem with communication, or do you feel that you're feeling kind of ambivalent about it in your own mind?

(Silence)

CLIENT: I definitely feel ambivalent about it, but I (pause) yeah.

(Silence)

THERAPIST: Or even ambivalent about how immediate it is. [00:31:15]

CLIENT: Yeah, that might also be true. You know, realistically, there's no immediacy to it, in the sense that, like, I desperately want things to not be the way they are, but (pause) but saying that is about as much of a step as I'm at all prepared to take (pause) because I (pause) I guess I think in some sense it's an indicator of there being problems, more than anything else.

(Silence)

Yeah, maybe I am ambivalent about the time scale also. [00:33:15]

(Silence)

Yeah, I think if we weren't married, I probably would have just said, "That's enough. I'm done here." At some point in all of this. So...

(Silence)

But I feel like marriage has different obligations and commitments, and so there's a because I don't know what the right thing to do is. I don't even know what that word means in this context, so I don't know what the right time scale is either for something like that. [00:35:27]

(Silence)

I also feel like maybe I shouldn't have said anything, so...

THERAPIST: (inaudible 36:29)

CLIENT: To Tanya. You know, I feel like I should definitely talk about this with you, and I also feel like I guess I feel badly, like, just talking about bad things here, but that may be a separate issue. I don't know.

THERAPIST: What do you mean by that?

CLIENT: Just sort of (inaudible 37:06) I don't know that I would find it fun to talk about the horrible things in other people's lives all day, so I appreciate you listening and talking about it with me. And I guess I'm sorry that that's what I have to talk about.

THERAPIST: Well, I don't quite see it that way. I feel you are talking about to me about very meaningful and profound things in your life for the purpose of creating a better life, whatever that better life looks like. (Pause) But there is a way that you can move to despair, and I wonder if that's part of where your comment is coming from, that there would be something that would maybe you would gravitate toward despair at times in hearing this, imagining if you were me. That's why you feel badly.

CLIENT: That sounds reasonable.

(Silence)

THERAPIST: I mean, I hold out a lot of hope at the end of this process. [00:38:57]

CLIENT: You mean you extend it towards others, or do you hold it yourself?

THERAPIST: That's interesting. How do you say that? That's an interesting distinction. What do you think?

CLIENT: How (inaudible 39:12) hold out could mean that, like, you are holding on to a lot of hope about the process internally, and hold out could also mean, like, you are handing to me there is hope that things could be better.

THERAPIST: I think both.

CLIENT: Okay. I can see both, yeah.

THERAPIST: I think I thought about it more internally, like what you said, the former. But by extension, I think the latter.

CLIENT: That makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense.

THERAPIST: I imagine because I feel that way, I communicate that. But I'm also aware that that can also be communicated prematurely as a way of avoiding the pain in the present.

CLIENT: (inaudible 39:58) we all can just hope things will be better or -

THERAPIST: Things will be fine. Things will be great. But if they don't feel great at the moment, I could hold out hope that things will feel much better. But if they don't, if that's not the sort of current picture of your psychological state, it actually could be almost an avoidance. Sort of like saying to someone, "Don't worry so much." (Laughter) I'm not really sure that's you hope at some point they worry less, but that's not very useful at the moment.

CLIENT: (Laughter) Yeah. Thanks.

THERAPIST: And this is whatever sort of situation you feel or what was going on in your life, the sort of pull toward despair is a compelling pull for you. It's not all there is, for sure, but it's a compelling pull. Like, "This just sucks. Like, blaming Tanya just sucks. It's an awful place, and there's nothing good for me to be had here."

CLIENT: Right. And I find my way out of it, eventually. (Pause) Yeah, I think that's correct. (Pause) So I guess my question is, like, what do I do about it?

THERAPIST: Well, certainly, one thing is to appreciate that that's where you go, that that's your tendency. And it's very you know, I continue to think about this. You know, one of the ways out of it for you was to find someone who shared the similar belief that is Tanya, and in some ways, I think you felt very close and very bonded, and very understood, which are all wonderful things. I do think there's a more problematic side, as we've talked about, in that there's a joining together against feeling like the world is a disappointing place, and that's problematic because then there's no person leading the other to show that there's actually good things to be had for starters. [00:42:37]

CLIENT: Right. And I think it's important to add that, like, that was not the only thing going on in our relationship.

THERAPIST: I appreciate that.

CLIENT: Yeah, but I think that that I think you're right that was going on. And I think that when our relationship has been good, that has not been the essential or priTanya feature of it. And in the last several years, that has been a much larger feature of it. Because I think in some ways, both of us have drifted much more towards despair in the last couple of years.

THERAPIST: And I think it will be helpful. This is artificial in some ways, because this can't be done for anybody. But in some sort of framework, to sort of disentangle your despair disentangle meaning think about, not your despair for (ph) Tanya's.

CLIENT: Well, that's in some sense very heavily related to this idea of leaving, right?

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: One of the things that one of the feelings that pushes me in that direction is feeling like she has been a drain on me for several years, or has been like, I've been trying to get out of to use the language we're talking about now, to get out of despair or away from it. But she's been drifting more and more into it. And (pause) it's hard to swim for two people. So...

THERAPIST: And it's really, I mean, you know, early in your relationship, it was a way to actually feel hopeful because you could feel that you weren't alone in that experience.

CLIENT: I'm not the only person who's seeing that there are bad things here.

THERAPIST: Yes, and that it's sort of flipped (ph). It's kind of like my analogy. I know it was an awkward one about, you know, you sort of doing drugs (inaudible 44:40) (laughter) All of sudden, wait a second, we have a heroin addict. This is incredibly different. I wasn't realizing we were getting in this deep. And then where things flipped, where it's not sort of being in a shared experience, but it's feeling like someone is drowning and you're being dragged down.

CLIENT: Yeah, I think there's a lot of yeah. Maybe it was it doesn't fit perfectly, but I think there's a lot in that analogy.

(Silence)

THERAPIST: You know, James, we're going to need to stop for today, okay? I will see you next week.

CLIENT: Okay (ph).

END TRANSCRIPT