TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi! Come on in! (pause) Oh, you haven’t been here since I got new furniture!

CLIENT: I have not!

THERAPIST: So, yeah. Either one of these chairs. I know, I re-did the configuration. I still keep this chair, so either chair that works for you, go for. They’re basically the same. (chuckles)

CLIENT: How do you like it?

THERAPIST: I like it, I like it. I like the change.

CLIENT: I think it looks great!

THERAPIST: Thank you, thank you.

CLIENT: Happy New Year!

THERAPIST: Happy New Year to you, too!

CLIENT: Thank you. Thank you for coming in in all of this.

THERAPIST: I’m good! (client chuckles) I won’t be staying until too late, so I’m good.

CLIENT: Okay. How far do you have to go?

THERAPIST: Uh, a little bit on the highway. (client responds) They plow the highways. (client responds) I’m not too worried. (pause) Welcome back! [00:00:59]

CLIENT: Thank you! This chair is much higher. It’s different.

THERAPIST: Yeah, it is different. I’m sorry if I didn’t like, I tried to (inaudible) (blocked).

CLIENT: No, no. you told me it was happening.

THERAPIST: Oh, I did tell you? Good.

CLIENT: Yeah, plus you had these little stickers on the wall, so...

THERAPIST: (chuckles) For the pink colors, yeah, which aren’t done yet, but they’re almost done. (chuckles)

CLIENT: What else is happening?

THERAPIST: Well, no, just these need to be painted (client affirms), yeah, that’s it. And actually a little bit more artwork next week, but after that, then it’s all done.

CLIENT: How long was it in the works?

THERAPIST: Uh, I think I just ordered this stuff a couple of months ago. It takes a while ago to get in, but, you know... I ordered it a few months ago and it came a week ago, maybe, a week and a half ago. So... different, right? (client affirms) The chairs are higher, too.

[pause 00:01:45 to 00:02:06]

CLIENT: So, I guess last time we left off on something that you suggested we needed to revisit. (pause) You know, it’s been a couple of weeks. It’s hard to like, jump right back into the middle of something. (therapist responds)

THERAPIST: (pause) That’s why I typically don’t say, “Last week, we left off with...” (client chuckles) It seems a little bit artificial.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: But it was on your mind.

CLIENT: Yeah. (therapist responds) Yeah. (pause) You know, I think you said something to the effect of, “This seems so important. We need to come back to this.” Or that word may be different, “need,” but... So, yeah.

[pause 00:03:08 to 00:03:42]

I’m going to sit this way, because otherwise I’ll get distracted by your books.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I’ll like, look away. (pause) I want to look that way, and there are the books. I’ll start reading the titles and I’ll get stuck there. (chuckles) (pause) (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Do you think today is harder than other days?

CLIENT: (pause) Um, than some other days. I know that it’s harder than any other day when I’ve come back and it’s been, you know, two weeks since I’ve seen you or really sit and... Anytime that I’ve gone away and then come back; but I guess those are the same thing. (therapist responds) Yeah.

[pause 00:04:52 to 00:05:19]

Yeah, so normally, I would adjust to new surroundings by talking with you about it a little bit, I think. I’m not unwilling to talk about it, but...

THERAPIST: I’m certainly not unwilling.

CLIENT: But you’re also... (pause) not giving the normal “Yes, I’m interested in talking about myself” cues that one would give, so like...

THERAPIST: Like, what would those cues be? Maybe you cue me, maybe I can cue you.

CLIENT: (laughs) So I asked you, you know, if this has been in the works for a long time. You sort of gave the “Meh, yeah, worked on it for a little while.” Then we... there was no like, “Yes, this was something I was excited about,” or “No, it wasn’t a big deal.” It was just like, “This is a thing I do every, possibly every, more than a year,” or “This is the first time I’ve decorated my office the way I really wanted to. I have this lovely new carpet that has these colors that are fantastic...” [00:06:23]

THERAPIST: I see. So I wasn’t, I was sort of... conic (ph) in my response?

CLIENT: Yeah. That’s a fun word. (therapist responds) (pause) Which... which I interpret in the sense of, “Yes, this is what we did, but this is not why we’re here. So, why don’t we move to why we’re here.”

THERAPIST: Oh, I’m very curious about your, I mean, it’s a very different room! (chuckles) So, I’m absolutely curious about your experience. I didn’t have that much to say on my end, because... I was really, “Oh, I have to say I really like it,” but we were just, didn’t have that much to say on my end, but that’s not to say I’m not curious about what your experience is.

CLIENT: (pause) (laughs) Um, and so... (laughs) My experience is that our conversations are exactly like that, almost all the time. You’re very kind, but you also... (pause) quickly deflect any discussion that would relate to you towards my experience of you, or the surroundings or et cetera, so that’s... [00:07:49]

THERAPIST: So would it, is it about, if I would talk more about myself?

CLIENT: (sighs) (pause) I don’t know. I think that... (pause) I typically attribute to you intentionality in most of what you say, because I think you are fairly intentional about what you do and don’t say, and... And so... even if not in the specific moment, I think there is a sort of method to the way you approach these sessions. Maybe I’m making that up, but, um, I... sort of assume that you went to school for a long time to learn a specific like, skill set and practice it a whole lot. So... I feel like I don’t know what you mean by “better.” Certainly interesting things come out of, um... this discussion might be of some interest... but that’s why you get the leather chair. [00:09:24]

THERAPIST: (both chuckle) You think the leather chair is better? I don’t know.

CLIENT: You don’t like the leather chair?

THERAPIST: No, it’s... no.

CLIENT: Seems (inaudible). Well, the... I can’t remember if you kept that or not, because it was out of my field of vision (therapist affirms), you did keep that one also?

THERAPIST: That’s actually, that’s a good one, that’s a Herman Miller chair.

CLIENT: Sorry. I was gesturing at the desk.

THERAPIST: Oh, no, the desk actually is new.

CLIENT: Okay. It didn’t look the same.

THERAPIST: The desk was awful, the last desk was terrible. (client chuckles) It was really not good. It was a crappy IKEA desk, (client laughs) (inaudible). [00:09:55]

CLIENT: But you kept these two pieces of furniture, so I assumed you liked that chair.

THERAPIST: It’s been a good orthopedic chair.

CLIENT: I see.

THERPIST: So... sort of, because I’m in it most, a lot of the day, so... (client laughs) But it seems like when we go... one of the things that I’ve observed is when you go away and come back, that there is, the relationship feels a little more awkward, or just is feels a little more lopsided or... And so it’s kind of hard to know how to get into the rhythm.

CLIENT: Um, for you, or for me, or both?

THERAPIST: I was actually commenting more on you, but maybe that’s not fair. Maybe it’s maybe both of us, and maybe that’s more fair.

CLIENT: (laughs) I mean, I certainly feel more awkward after I haven’t seen you for a while, so...

THERAPIST: Yeah. I mean, I get that sense, I get that sense. It’s like, “Okay, well how do we do this again?” I get that sense. (client affirms) Is that my being, I mean, yeah, I’m not terribly chatty. It’s true! (chuckles) And so, that part of it is, that’s maybe not even a good way of saying it, “I’m not terribly chatty.” I mean, there is more to it than just that, but that’s just, you know... [00:11:03]

CLIENT: Is that you in general, or is that just how you conduct the sessions?

THERAPIST: I don’t know. Probably both, probably both. I certainly wouldn’t describe myself as chatty.

CLIENT: (laughs) Okay.

THERAPIST: (pause) But I guess one of the things that I think, I’m thinking about now, is that it’s not about how sort of, how the session is going, but that you, that maybe you’re feeling a sense of sort of awkwardness, or just like, trying to get back into something.

[pause 00:11:40 to 00:12:00]

CLIENT: Yeah, I think that’s right. (therapist responds)

[pause 00:12:00 to 00:12:28]

Yeah, I think there, I mean... I don’t have a handle on all of it. I think some of it is more general features of me, and not seeing people for a while, there is sort of a... a disconnect or something. (therapist responds) In this specific relationship, there are also sort of like, I am thinking about what things will I tell you, or should I tell you, or will I want to talk about with you when I don’t see you. Then when I see you, there are all of these things that I could talk about, but then like, the reality of you is different from... (pause) my mental “not image” of you.

THERAPIST: Hmm. Different in particular ways? Or just...?

CLIENT: Well, (chuckles) um... (pause) Knowing that I am not particularly good at predicting what, how you’re going to respond to anything, I don’t construct a response from you when I think about wanting to tell you about something. That’s what I meant by “not image.” (therapist responds) So like, the presence of you as, you know, real is very different from there not being (chuckles) any response. So it’s... So I think there is that going on, too, but... (therapist responds) (pause) I think this time, it’s been a little bit more jarring. I... um... (chuckles) I think I used that outlet on the wall in the same way that I use normal social cues in this relationship. [00:14:22]

THERAPIST: How do you mean?

CLIENT: It’s about there, in respect, in relation to you when you’re sitting in this chair, so like, that’s where I would end up looking most of the time. So it’s sort of like, I think in normal, normal well, this is, there is nothing abnormal about this relationship... Any relationship with a friend who I haven’t seen for a while I would... (pause) There would be small talk (chuckles) in the way that was perhaps awkward this time. Some of that awkwardness (or all of it, or whatever), is related to me, but normally we find something that sort of catches, and then (therapist responds) move along into a normal conversation, which I think is a thing you have recognized also.

THERAPIST: So you’ve lost some visual orientation? [00:15:23]

CLIENT: Yeah. (therapist responds) That’s the short way of saying (chuckles) everything I just said, I think.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I see that.

CLIENT: But I was using the visual orientation in place of... apparently in place of a different sort of orientation I usually have. So, I don’t meet with most friends in the same place every time, but we sort of maybe go through similar patterns of conversation. (therapist responds) (pause) But I find my patterns of conversation awkward, so... Say hello, and then sit here for a little while, and then eventually I start talking. But that’s awkward for me under normal circumstances, I think.

THERAPIST: So you’re like, you look for something that’s familiar, and so in this situation, familiarity is less the pattern and more of our conversation, or something like that, but more just sort of visually, that there is some orientation there that’s been kind of thrown off kilter. [00:16:21]

CLIENT: I think so? (therapist responds) I was not aware that was what was going on until I kept looking over here. (therapist responds) There are books instead of an outlet, which obviously...

THERAPIST: It’s something that was familiar that became different.

CLIENT: Yeah. But it’s very pretty, so...

THERAPIST: Thank you. I know that, but... (client laughs) it can be disorientating at first. I’m facing a different part of the room, too.

CLIENT: Is that weird for you?

THERAPIST: It’s different, but I don’t know if it was weird. It was definitely different. It was an adjustment and now I actually like it. So... It’s different.

[pause 00:17:05 to 00:17:24]

I mean, one way to put it very simply is, it’s hard for you to focus on yourself first. (pause) Like, you... There is sort of a... surveying isn’t quite the right word, but there is kind of a feeling of like, needing to be grounded, or something in some fashion, and then the settling in after that.

CLIENT: Yeah, I think all of that is... about right.

THERAPIST: Uh-hmm. And there are something if we go for a week without meeting, then some, like a pattern, even a pattern feels like it’s, was, not broken a little bit, but just somehow disrupted, maybe. Whereas from week to week, the pattern feels a little bit more regular. So not, the not going for a week without seeing each other, and then also sort of the different orientation, I feel like it’s kind of a double whammy. (client affirms)

[pause 00:18:36 to 00:19:01]

CLIENT: You know, even week to week, it’s more awkward than, at the beginning of the sessions than at the end of the sessions, so...

THERAPIST: I know, that’s always one of the reasons that I thought that your coming more than once a week would be helpful, actually. (client responds) Which, I mean, that’s true in, I mean, in general. For some people, it’s even, you know, more particular to them. (client responds) I mean, I think we do very good work once a week, so (chuckles), it’s not that I feel like it’s suffering in any way, but that continuity can be actually very grounding for people. (blows nose)

[pause 00:19:34 to 00:20:17]

CLIENT: In this new arrangement, it’s also very strange for me, because I am (clears throat and excuses) very curious about who you are. I know we don’t, I don’t ask you very many questions about it. But we’ve, you know, we’ve talked about that some. (therapist responds) Now this, you know, this whole wall of books that are like, more or less in my field of view, is information about you that has not been accessible before, but it’s sort of like... it’s there in the... the easy way? (therapist responds) Like, I can just look and read it, rather than having to talk with you about who you are, so... (therapist responds) That’s also distracting. (therapist responds) I don’t know whether that’s more so or less so than the visual thing, but certainly my habit in talking with you of looking that way is compounded there. [00:21:16]

THERAPIST: Hmm, uh-hmm. Maybe that’s not a bad thing.

CLIENT: What’s not a bad thing?

THERAPIST: Well like, I mean, one way of framing it is a distraction, but sort of, there is some curiosity there, maybe some feeling that like, some way of being able to sate that curiosity by seeing what I read, or at least what books I own, (client chuckles) the same thing as what I read.

CLIENT: (laughs) Or at least what books you’ve brought here.

THERAPIST: What books, exactly. (client chuckles)

[pause 00:21:54 to 00:23:11]

CLIENT: So, I was thinking about... You were suggesting that I find it hard to talk about myself first. That’s another one of those that I sort of say, “Yeah, I think that’s right,” but I don’t have very much to say about it (therapist responds), so... But it seems like that’s actually something that is very important to the work we’re doing here.

THERAPIST: (pause) When you had said, you know, where we ended last week in my saying it was, or last time, and saying it was very important, do you remember what it was, or you were just flagging it, that I had said that? [00:24:11]

CLIENT: Um... I mean, yes. It was this same subject.

THERAPIST: Right!

CLIENT: Okay.

THERPIST: I wasn’t sure if, that you were referring to that or not. I mean, I wasn’t, yeah, I wasn’t sure.

CLIENT: Okay. And that I was not... sure whether you were... testing me or... (chuckles) or... Okay.

THERAPIST: No, It wasn’t a test. I was just wondering.

CLIENT: I mean, do you remember that (therapist affirms) also? Okay, all right. Okay. (pause) What just happened?

THERAPIST: What do you mean?

CLIENT: I feel like you asked me a, I don’t understand what you were, what information you were trying to elicit from me. [00:25:06]

THERAPIST: Um, I was trying to understand if you were trying to work on what we were talking about last week, or last time, or not. I was just trying to under , I was trying to just understand your thought process, I wasn’t necessarily, it wasn’t a test. (pause) Is that... Did that answer your question?

CLIENT: I think so.

THERAPIST: Okay. Was there more to the question?

CLIENT: I don’t know. (therapist affirms) (chuckles) Um...

[pause 00:25:41 to 00:27:24]

THERAPIST: What are you thinking about?

CLIENT: Um, I’m just reprocessing the whole thing. I feel like... When I’ve been away for a while, I come in and we, it’s awkward for me. So I try to make small talk and look to visual cues. We don’t make small talk. That’s just not (chuckles) what goes on in our interactions, usually. So then that’s... That doesn’t really change the awkward level for me, so it’s still awkward. So, then yes, I was trying to just, well, let’s just go back to this subject. But it’s a little bit artificial in the way that I tried to bring it back. And also, I... (pause) It sounds like perhaps confusing for you, as to what exactly I’m doing. [00:28:31]

THERAPIST: (pause) Well, in a sense, one way we can make it less awkward is to talk about the awkwardness, which sounds paradoxical, but not necessarily; I mean, which is what we’re doing, but...

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: (pause) The thought that came to my mind, which was... Somewhere, I guess, I don’t know if I said this in particular, a few weeks ago, but just sort of like, the permanence of things or impermanence of things... Like, I feel like when you, we go for a week or so without seeing each other, there is something, the permanence, it doesn’t, something feels more impermanent about it? Like, you’re sort of starting over, like this isn’t like, something that’s here and structured and you just jump back in, but it’s something that needs to be re-established or recreated (client responds), that it’s not quite, I mean like, an established structure. I mean, I imagine with the sort of office being different, too, it’s even more so. Yeah, you know, you’re kind of, things have changed! They’re not the same! (chuckles) But... they’re the same (inaudible), yeah, certainly pieces of furniture are the same and it’s the same room, but... But that’s just, I sort of thought about it in that way, in terms of permanence and impermanence. (client responds) Starting over from scratch.

[pause 00:30:08 to 00:30:44]

CLIENT: Certainly an interesting way of thinking about it. (therapist responds)

[pause 00:30:46 to 00:31:35]

Yeah, I don’t... (pause) I don’t have a lot of thoughts in response. I think it’s interesting, though. (therapist responds) You know, it’s sort of, it fits my suggestion that it feels similar from week to week, in that there is something that must be re-built in that language, or that it’s re-build more quickly in a week (therapist responds), or from week to week, but... (pause) I don’t know; I guess I feel that way about my work, also. So, when I go away from it for a couple of weeks, I have to get back into it, or find my way back into it, so... (pause) So I don’t know what that... (therapist responds) I don’t know what that means. [00:32:52]

THERAPIST: (pause) I’m not sure how this fits together, but I think it does somehow, that you’re also someone who very much believes in commitments, which sort of speaks to a kind of permanence. (client responds) I don’t know how that fits in with this. I imagine it does somehow.

CLIENT: I like the suggestion. I have no idea how it fits in, either. (therapist responds) Or maybe you have an idea; I don’t have an idea of how it fits in, but... Another feature, when I’ve gone away from here, is I’ve gone to a place and done a thing every time. So it’s sort of like, the focus in my life has shifted for a while and I’ve come back. So I feel like that probably plays a role also, but I don’t know exactly how. [00:33:52]

THERAPIST: And it’s different from this time.

CLIENT: No, similar to this time. So this time, it was a different thing, but I went away and visited my family and Tanya’s family, and then I came back, but my life here is just very different from visiting my folks.

THERAPIST: What was it like to visit them?

CLIENT: It was nice. It was stressful, internally stressful, there was a lot going on. So a lot of people and there is a... (chuckles) There is a sense in which we’re very similar, all of my siblings and I. I, perhaps because of our sessions, I’m sort of more aware of some particular features of our similarities. So...

THERAPIST: (pause) In what ways was it stressful? [00:34:56]

CLIENT: For someone who doesn’t look to their own needs or desires first, there is a lot of people to try to balance their needs. No one is (or very few people, except maybe the three-year-olds), talking about what their needs or desires are, because they’re all doing something similar.

THERAPIST: And in that way, you feel similar to your siblings?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. That was one similarity I recognized this (therapist responds), or felt on this trip. (pause) It was perhaps the most notable in my 17-year-old brother, who like, when asked like, what he wanted, would try to find out what the majority opinion was, and align himself with that, so that his choice had as little impact as possible. [00:35:54]

THERAPIST: (pause) Hmm. That’s (chuckles) interesting. (pause) To put it kind of not very elegantly, where do you think you guys got that from?

CLIENT: You know, (chuckles) the simple answer that I don’t really believe, but is probably right to zeroth order, is from our mother. So, my mother is actually very similar to that, except for the trying to align herself with the majority opinion, because she’s in charge. So, it’s sort of like... she’s always trying to balance the needs of five children and her husband and appears to neglect her own needs (although I don’t think that’ s actually really true; I think it’s... I think it’s sometimes true). But that’s... I say, I only believe that in a zeroth order sense, because I don’t have a mechanism for that transfer from her to us. [00:37:26]

THERAPIST: When you say “appears,” but you say you don’t think it’s true; so who does it appear to?

CLIENT: The arbitrary objective observer that I made up...

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: ...for the purpose of this conversation.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: (chuckles) So, me... to me.

THERAPIST: So that dynamic of no one saying, “This is what I need,” but everybody looking to everyone else, is part of made it stressful?

CLIENT: (pause) I think so, yeah. (therapist responds) Because, so when I come home, I come home least frequently, because I’m farthest away. So everyone wants to see me, but everyone wants to see me at the same time. No one will say, “I want to see you and like, talk with you.” So, everyone just kind of like, shows up and we’re all there. So... And no one wants to like, step on anyone else’s toes, so no one will say, “I want you to do this with me.” So we kind of like, muddle around until something happens. [00:38:42]

THERAPIST: (pause) Like, waiting?

CLIENT: Um, yeah, it does feel like waiting. There are certainly like, large periods of time where is just waiting or like, yeah. Or conversation with the sense of waiting for something, if that makes sense. We’re talking, but it’s not... But either it’s not a very deep conversation, or it’s complicated by everyone being there. So, it’s really hard to have a deep conversation with six people at once. (therapist responds) Maybe you don’t find that to be the case. I find it to be the case, that it was hard to have a deep conversation with six people at once. [00:39:44]

THERAPIST: Well, if they’re broken into smaller groups, yeah.

CLIENT: So...

THERAPIST: And even then, maybe you want privacy, so...

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: Do you have a sense of what people are waiting for?

CLIENT: No, no. So that’s, yeah, that’s also stressful. I feel like, that there is some sense in which, you know, I’m there and everyone wants to see me, although that’s not the only thing anyone wants. And so it’s like...

[pause 00:40:12 to 00:40:30]

You know, I actually want to see everyone, and I want to spend some time with each person, and I want to... I want to take care of everyone! That’s part of it. But I don’t have any sense of how to balance that, when there is, I mean, there are just too many possible combinations of “do this, and then do this, and then do the...” So it...

THERAPIST: So what eventually happens?

CLIENT: Something; (chuckles) I mean... So, fortunately my two sisters both have three-year-olds now, and so they have very clear needs and schedules. So, they come over... when they can, in the three-year-olds schedules. So what ended up happening a lot was like... because they also want to see Tanya, and so Tanya is there also, so...

[pause 00:41:30 to 00:41:51]

So often, one or the other of us would end up playing with one or both of the three-year-olds, depending on how many were there at the time. When they weren’t there, we’d play games with my two brothers (who are in high school and college), who mostly just want to play games and hang out with us. So it’s sort of easier to meet their needs, in some ways, because I know what they want to do. So it kind of defaults between some of those things.

THERAPIST: Do people look uncomfortable?

CLIENT: No, no.

THERAPIST: Like, feeling, “Um...”

CLIENT: (pause) No, not really.

THERAPIST: Uh-hmm. But there are still a stressful element to it. [00:42:46]

CLIENT: Yeah, particularly for me, and I think it’s also stressful for each other person, in their own way. I think there are some shared pieces and some not at all shared pieces. So I’ve sort of been talking about, I sort of drifted from saying there was the shared thing to talking more about the experience for me (therapist responds), but... You know, I could talk about each of my siblings individually, but that would take a long time. I’m not sure it would be (chuckles) particularly useful. But I don’t know, so...

THERAPIST: Do you think like, your siblings, or your mom, don’t know what they want? Or they just are inhibited from speaking up? [00:43:40]

CLIENT: So I have the clearest sense with my oldest sister. So that there was this... Her three-year-old was sick this trip, and so that put a lot of stress on her. Her in-laws were coming in at the same time I was here, but only for a day. It’s always stressful for her when they visit. So, at any rate, so, one evening she e-mailed us to tell us that she wasn’t going to come over (she lives about ten minutes away from my parents), and said something less strong than, “You are welcome to come over here.” So I think she wanted us to come over and visit with her. (therapist responds) [00:44:33]

(pause) (chuckles) And this just gets very complicated. So anyway, so I was talking with mother later about how stressed Vivianne was. She, (inaudible) inside, said (inaudible), you know, “I think that it would be helpful for her, in general, to vocalize what she wants, both in her marriage and in general.” I forget why I mentioned “in her marriage” also, but it seemed relevant. (therapist responds) So, I guess, I mean, you know, it’s a very different thing to say, “I want you to come over here,” as opposed to, “You’re welcome here,” or something less strong. So anyway, so... But I think a day and a half later, she called and said, “Would you come over,” or something like that. So that was nice. She actually asked for what she wanted. So we did go over. [00:45:29]

THERAPIST: That’s an example. Well, James (ph), we’re actually going to need to stop for today, I’m realizing. (client affirms) I will see you next week, at our regular time! (client affirms) And the furniture will be the same!

CLIENT: Okay, thank you.

THERAPIST: Okay? Okay! Take care!

CLIENT: Bye.

END TRANSCRIPT