TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi! Come on in! I’ll just get a glass of water. (pause) Hi!

CLIENT: Good morning! (pause) So we talked last week some about orientation, orienting myself, so... I’m trying to do that, and I guess... (pause) You also suggested there was sort of an impermanence to, I felt like there was an impermanence to things, or that was a thing you mentioned as potentially involved. I think... (pause) I think there is a lot of intimacy tied up into it also, and... so... Maybe those would be good things to talk about. [00:01:42]

THERAPIST: What was your thought about intimacy?

CLIENT: So I think a large part of (although not all of), a large part of my difficulty last week, (and actually in general), about talking with you again after being gone for a while is, I think I work hard not to talk about my feelings or my inner workings when I’m not here. So, I think there is a... I sort of expect that I will come back, and it will be easy again, and it’s not, because I’ve been working hard not to do it, I think.

THERAPIST: (pause) Why do you think you work hard not to do it? [00:02:50]

CLIENT: (pause) Some of it is... particularly now, yeah, and I don’t know how (chuckles) like, some of this is a long-running thing. Some of it is more related to the events of the last year, or several years, so... Some of it is like, protecting specific thoughts or feelings, or preventing those from being shared with other people. (pause) So in this case, I think one important one that I have been working not to say while I’ve been at home with my family and Tanya’s family is that “I want to leave my wife, but I think it’s wrong, so I’m probably not going to do it.” Not that I had that formulated in any... (chuckles) clear sense until I was reflecting on our session last week and... so...

[pause 00:04:00 to 00:04:26]

So last week, we talked a lot about rearrangement and the furniture, but we talked about those things because they’re easy to talk about, not because I feel, not because they were particularly important to me, that the room changed, but so much as like, that was really easy to talk about compared to anything else.

THERAPIST: Hmm. That’s interesting, because it didn’t strike me as easy to talk about!

CLIENT: Well, fair enough.

THERAPIST: But, you know, I...

CLIENT: No, I...

THERAPIST: ...it’s your experience, so I don’t want to...

CLIENT: No, no, no. That’s fair. Yeah, I guess I mean relatively easy to talk about, sort of like that. (pause) That was sort of the first level of what was like, going on with me at the time, so I could talk about that with you and... I don’t know that I have it much more clearly than that, but... there were other levels that I have been... keeping held in. [00:05:34]

THERAPIST: Hmm. So you were aware of talking about that and not other things?

CLIENT: Um... I’m not sure that’s true. I guess it sounds like that’s what I’m saying, but I’m not sure that’s really true. I think I feel that way in retrospect, that I was talking about that, but there were other things...

THERAPIST: It wasn’t something you were consciously trying to do at the time.

CLIENT: Right, right. It’s just that’s the... that was the easy path, to not sit here in silence or something, so I did that. And I think it was good, but... because it sort of led to thinking about these things.

[pause 00:06:23 to 00:06:48]

THERAPIST: I mean, I definitely was thinking more about what we were talking about over the last several sessions, and how it does not seem like you feel you can just come in and jump in where you (client chuckles) left off, if that “left off” was last week or two weeks ago or whatever it was. It’s like there is something that needs to happen before that happens (client chuckles) like, there is not, and there is sort of assumption that we just, you know, continue.

CLIENT: Yeah, I don’t think that’s about you. I think that’s about me.

THERAPIST: I, I... and that’s in a sense, in a sense it’s extra good, because that’s, this is a great opportunity (both chuckle) for us to think about that. I didn’t get the sense that it was necessarily unique to this (client affirms), although there are certain aspects of the situation that I imagine heighten it.

CLIENT: I think that’s right, yeah.

THERAPIST: Because there is less of a conversational piece, and so it probably just makes it more conspicuous, but doesn’t necessarily create it.

CLIENT: I think that... yeah, I think that’s right. And part of it is, I use the conversational piece to orient myself in order to get back into that place, you know, of intimacy, so to speak. And... and that’s less emphasized (chuckles) in this context, and so yeah, it makes it more conspicuous.

[pause 00:08:01 to 00:08:28]

Yeah, I guess... I guess I’m aware of time having passed and things having happened in the intervening period.

[pause 00:08:38 to 00:09:01]

And... I mean, I’ve talked before about coming in and not having a sense of where to start, because I’ve had several things to talk about (or that could be talked about), but I don’t know what’s important to talk about. That’s also, it’s sort of general like, when I see something like, and I don’t know what the important things of my experience, or what I’ve been doing are to share. That’s particularly difficult, I believe, when I’ve only been working, because most people have very little access to what I do. (pause) And, if I (chuckles), if I haven’t thought hard about how to make it accessible, I, it takes me some time to formulate what I do, in any sort of accessible way, to a person who is not highly educated in chemistry. [00:10:01]

(pause) So I think that’s one piece of it. I think maybe a... more important piece is that I have, I think I have an anxiety that something will have changed in the intervening time, or that... I was just talking about protecting these innermost thoughts of that if I share some of those, then... (then I’ll be/it will be) (ph) perceived as weird, or distasteful, or something else bad. (pause) I think I’ve mentioned before, having the sense of like, “Why would you, (chuckles) why would you want to continue talking with me?” I come here and I tell you all of the bad things in my life or that I think about (or many of them), and I... so I think that’s really it. [00:11:15]

THERAPIST: (pause) It sort of speaks to this knowing like, I would evaluate the content versus appreciate the sharing, the process?

CLIENT: (pause) Yeah, yeah. And certainly that’s not primarily my experience of you, of our relationship. (pause) And I really appreciate that; that’s been very helpful. I do also have a general sense of you as evaluating... but not in that way, if that makes sense. So I feel like you diagnosing maybe or trying to piece out what is going, what is going on, as opposed to... judging. [00:12:25]

THERAPIST: I think of myself as evaluating, and it’s the sense of I’m trying to understand, as you said, piece things together.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) You do think of yourself as doing that? (therapist affirms) Okay. I’m not really surprised, that’s...

THERAPIST: I’m trying to help make meaning of something and that, I guess if you put evaluation in that sort of framework, I guess that’s... (client affirms) (pause) Well, you’re also describing is in the last year, or couple of years, that there feels like even more of yourself you need to kind of seal off.

CLIENT: I think so. Certainly, if I think back to high school, when I was living with my parents, I felt like that at times, also. [00:13:33]

THERAPIST: Around particular things?

CLIENT: Um... yeah, I can think of some particular things, but I don’t know whether it’s, I don’t know whether it’s about those particular things or whether it was sort of a category that I can’t quite identify, if that makes sense.

So, I had a large crush on one of my friends for a long time, and I never really talked about that with my parents at all, but it was very... emotional and painful for me, because it was not requited, at all. So... (pause) But I... I’m not sure whether that’s related; it’s just a time I can think of where I had a similar... where I now have a similar sense of having intentionally, or less intentionally, closed off those feelings. But yes, particularly in the last few years. Or year.

[pause 00:14:48 to 00:15:06]

THERAPIST: It’s much easier for you to talk when not too much time intervenes. It’s very, it’s dramatically different.

CLIENT: (pause) Yeah, I’ve also been thinking a lot about these things, and why our session... I mean, so I found our session last week somewhat frustrating, not... (pause) At least that was my feeling of it immediately afterwards. Sort of thinking about why I felt that way, and what had been going on, and why it had been going on has been a very good process. So I think it was an important session in a lot of ways.

THERAPIST: Do you know what the frustrating part was?

CLIENT: I felt like we hadn’t gotten anywhere. I... the... we... but... (pause) sitting now, I feel like the process of saying, “Well, we didn’t get anywhere,” isn’t actually true, but that was how I felt. But we’ve revealed this whole, I guess a set of things that was keeping us from getting anywhere, which I think is actually getting somewhere. [00:16:21]

THERAPIST: Well I felt, during it, that the process of it was an example of what we were talking about (client affirms), is that in the sessions, I don’t know what you need or what you want. I feel like I’m... I don’t... “Does he need me to talk? Does he need me to be quiet? What’s going on? I don’t know!” (chuckles) It’s exactly what we then sort of talked about as the session progressed.

CLIENT: Hmm. Yeah, and... (pause) I can’t tell you what I want in those circumstances. You sort of offered to be more chatty, and then were more chatty, and I found that... (pause) freezing in some way, like...

THERAPIST: Freezing?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: (pause) How, actually how do you mean? [00:17:21]

CLIENT: Yeah, I... (pause) Sort of like, you were willing to be accommodating, and I couldn’t say, “Yes, please do that.” (pause) So I think part of it is one of the ways that I orient myself is like, looking to social cues. So if you are, in some sense, seeking to put my needs first, then I have lost the sense of how I’m supposed to put my needs first, if that makes sense. (pause) So, I mean, that’s one way that the conversation helps orient me in other circumstances, I think. It’s sort of like, “Oh, we’re doing this thing, we’re just talking about what’s going on. I can do that.” [00:18:25]

THERAPIST: You’re trying to adjust to the situation, so if I’m trying to adjust to you...

CLIENT: There is that, and then there is also the part where I’m aware that the conversation we’re having is about me being unable to talk about me. And I can’t get a grip on how to adjust to that. That’s sort of independent of you adjusting to me. I feel like there is another thing I can’t quite articulate there.

(pause) Sort of like it might be difficult for you to be more chatty, and that might be asking too much or something. Not that I think that, sitting here now, but... (pause) I think that’s related. Sort of like, if I ask this thing of you, if I ask you to listen to... these bad things that I think, or feel, or have happened, you won’t like me. If I ask too much, you won’t like me or something. [00:19:45]

THERAPIST: Well, that seems consistent with you not wanting to ask for very much from people. (client affirms) (pause) And maybe it’s sort of intensified by feeling that you’re in the opposite role of actually feeling Tanya has asked for too much, that there is actually (inaudible).

CLIENT: (chuckles) (pause) That’s certainly consistent with how I usually behave. (pause) In the sense that if I have gone through something and I see someone else going through it, I... (pause) in places where I think it would be help , would have been helpful to have known something, or been told something, or heard something, I try to supply that. So yeah, that... sounds probable.

[pause 00:21:24 to 00:22:22]

At this point, I feel like we’ve sort of gotten to the edge of what I have sorted out. I don’t really know where to go from here, both in the session and really in a larger sense. I feel like we’ve come back, we’ve circled around some of these pieces a lot. (pause) I think I’ve said I’m afraid that you won’t like me, and I mean that both you and more sort of in your role as... (sighs) you know, the arbitrary other person in a relationship with me. I feel like I have not formulated that very much before. I don’t know if you have a different sense of that.

THERAPIST: No, not different. [00:23:26]

CLIENT: Okay. And so I think that’s an important thing, but I don’t really know what to do about it.

THERAPIST: (pause) I mean, there are so many ways to go with it, but I was just thinking about what you were saying before, about Tanya, about feeling like, you know, how you feel like you want to leave your wife, but it goes against what you feel you (inaudible) should do. (inaudible) It’s not a dilemma. I don’t know how to put it; dilemma isn’t the right word. Just this... I don’t know.

CLIENT: I feel like it’s been a dilemma, but I also don’t know that I have (at least not recently) put in one sentence, that description: “I want to do this, but I think it’s wrong.” So that’s actually been a helpful sort of realization in the last week. [00:24:34]

THERAPIST: I guess a dilemma is a dilemma to the extent that you don’t have to do something about it. Then the question is, “Is it something that you’re trying, this, is it sort of a...” I don’t know why I’m finding it, hard time finding words today. I was thinking of dichotomy, maybe a conflict, that the goal is to live with, or is it actually something you want to figure out what you should do with, which is a different kind of problem (client responds), or do without.

[pause 00:25:04 to 00:26:08]

CLIENT: So that’s a, that was a question.

THERAPIST: Yeah, it was a question that wasn’t necessarily like, “Give me an answer to,” but I was framing something.

CLIENT: Yeah. Um... So I guess I heard it as, “There is more than one way to proceed here. Do you want to live with that realization or do something about it?”

THERAPIST: (affirms) But I feel like I meant it a little bit less as a, you know, “Here! Pick!” (client chuckles) But yeah, so like, that’s why I said a little bit more of a framing, but I guess there is sort of edge of, “Okay...” (chuckles)

CLIENT: (pause) And I don’t really know. I guess I had... that formulation was a way of living with the circumstance that we’ve been talking about for a long time, I think.

[pause 00:27:18 to 00:27:59]

Yeah, I don’t know. (pause) Certainly for right now, I feel okay formulating it in that way of like, “I want this other thing, but I want to do what I feel like is right more.” (pause) I think (chuckles), I think the reason that’s important to me is that it stops it from being an active question all the time of, “What do I want?” or “What am I going to do?” to just, “I don’t know how to answer or didn’t know how to answer...” So it just leaves this open question all the time, and I... can’t deal with that or something, don’t seem to deal well with it. [00:29:10]

(pause) In a lot of ways, it’s not a different way of framing the problem than we’ve framed it a dozen other times, but it feels different somehow. (pause) I think it’s a stronger statement.

THERAPIST: (pause) This is the thought that came to my mind, I’m going to try this framing. There is some idea that, you know, of... I don’t know, being, I don’t want to say “happy.” “Happy” is too much of a, it seems sort of trivial, in a sense. But some idea of sort of being content, or whatever, about sort of being able to be connected with yourself and with other people at the same time, always having that be kind of a harmonious process, or act, or something. Right now, you’re in the dilemma that that feels like that’s actually very separate, of being sort of connected with yourself and your own feelings, you feel like, in order to do that, you can’t be honest with other people. You have to seal off part of yourself in order to remain in contact with other people, and vice versa. That is a difficult position to be in. (pause) It’s a particular kind of seclusion. [00:31:05]

CLIENT: (pause) Yeah, I think that’s right. That’s certainly, I mean, you’ve seen a lot of that happen, or you, we’ve been talking through a lot of the time in which that has become really prominent in that... I guess I’ve mentioned maybe this is a thing I’ve done before, or but... And maybe a thing that I always do, to some extent, but it’s certainly become dramatically more prominent when I felt like I could not say anything to Tanya that might disrupt her mood.

(pause) You know, there are probably a half dozen or more sessions where you’ve sort of said, “Well, I don’t think you need to protect me.” So, yeah, yeah, I think that’s right. Or a good formulation of what’s going on. [00:32:25]

THERAPIST: Well, you’re describing with Tanya, you’re also describing with other people about your feelings. An important, I mean, it is about marriage, which is like a huge part of your life, and it’s also just sort of such a basic thing about how, who you are as a person, how you feel, and what you want in life, and how you want to be. I mean, it’s about you, too, that you feel you can’t share.

CLIENT: (pause) Hmm.

[pause 00:32:52 to 00:33:23]

Yeah, yeah.

[pause 00:33:23 to 00:33:59]

Yeah, I don’t have anything else to add. I was sort of sitting here, trying to think of... why or... But I don’t have anything that I haven’t said already for why. Um... don’t know how accurate it is... or the “what to do about it.” I don’t have that. I mean, there is the practical, “Well, just talk about things.”

THERAPIST: (pause) There are also the fears you have when you’re talking.

CLIENT: (affirms) Hmm. You know, I think we haven’t talked about all, I guess, this session is trust, but that seems like it’s really different. Another way of describing what I’ve been saying is that I don’t trust people to... accept or handle or deal with... me. [00:35:10]

THERAPIST: Why do you think... why do you think that’s difficult for you?

CLIENT: (sighs)

[pause 00:35:30 to 00:36:19]

I don’t have a good answer, or an answer that I feel like is... I don’t have an answer. I can sort of... I don’t know, point in different places, but I don’t know that it’s right, or that it... I can’t make it all fit together, if that makes sense. So, I feel like a lot of people don’t like themselves, and that’s why they are scared of letting anyone know who they are. But I don’t really feel like that’s the case. Some of these feelings I don’t like, particularly, but... or feel badly about having, things like that. So, to that extent, maybe, but... I actually... like myself pretty well, I think I’m pretty cool. Not in any actual sense of the word “cool,” but (chuckles)... [00:37:19]

So, thinking back to, I guess I, (chuckles)... One of my cousins is the same age as me. We went through school at the same time, because we lived near each other. He just, at least while we were in school, didn’t like me at all. I don’t really know why. So I have often assigned that to me being intelligent, because that seemed to be a reason to be picked on in middle school, for example. Also, a little weird. We talked some about that before. Family had like, these distinct religious beliefs and were just a little bit different. But that’s all I have, is that set of things.

[pause 00:38:13 to 00:38:48]

THERAPIST: Well, not trusting people has sort of two components. It’s willingness and it’s capability, it’s both. We’ve talked, you know, sort of off and on about the capability part, being capable.

CLIENT: Are people capable? Or am I capable?

THERAPIST: Right. Well, when you think about trusting people, right? They have, in order to trust them, they have to be capable (client affirms), and they have to be willing. (client affirms) They can be capable, and not willing. They can be willing, and not capable. (client affirms) I feel like we have talked about the capability part, and some of your feelings about questioning, you know, are people capable in certain ways.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. And a lot of that related to like, talking about the particularly bad periods of Tanya’s illness like, people capable of dealing with that. [00:39:39]

THERAPIST: Also, when you were younger, though, always feeling like a lot of things were up to you. Even your volleyball team story, about, you know, taking on every single role of the volleyball team. And even younger, when you were describing your teachers, you know, sort of feeling like they had, you know, a lot of confidence in you to be able to figure things out that they may not even be able to figure out, and you were much younger. (client responds) Seems like it’s had a long history. (client responds) And it doesn’t directly relate to trust, but the two could come together. [00:40:13]

CLIENT: Hmm.

[pause 00:40:21 to 00:40:59]

THERAPIST: What are you thinking about?

CLIENT: I’m just thinking you’re remarkable!

THERAPIST: Hmm! How so?

CLIENT: That was a... that’s scattered over several sessions across a year, those things that you’ve just sort of put together. (therapist responds) I’m clearly not your only patient. I’ve seen a half dozen others of them, so... (therapist responds) Thank you.

THERAPIST: Well, thank you for the compliment. But what you say makes an impression on me. I mean, in some ways (client chuckles) that kind of speaks to kind of your feeling like, you’re sometimes not feeling the continuity. I guess in my comment, it clearly showed you the continuity (client laughs) and you certainly are continuous in my mind.

[pause 00:41:46 to 00:42:19]

CLIENT: Point taken. (therapist responds) You know, my experience is also continuous, and you get an hour a week of it, so... Or 45 minutes. So there is this... (pause) I have the sense that you have access to only what I bring to you, or you observe in that process. And so yeah, I guess sometimes I have concern that that is a sort of, a filter that prevents you from seeing the important things, but I don’t think that’s really true.

[pause 00:43:20 to 00:44:13]

But back to the capability thing, which I think is a really interesting suggestion. I... I do think that does relate to trust. I have a lot of trust in myself, to be able to do things and not a lot of trust in other people. That sort of... or a bounded trust in other people, and that’s sort of similar to what you’re suggesting.

[pause 00:44:44 to 00:45:13]

It seems a little weird, on the other hand, right? My teachers all really liked me, the same ones that we were talking about. The volleyball team, those people really liked me, so maybe that’s part of it also, is that I know how to have that role in the relationship, and don’t know how to have the other role.

THERAPIST: So we can think of therapy as practicing.

CLIENT: (chuckles) Um... Yes.

THERAPIST: Hmm! (pause) (chuckles) I didn’t mean to make that comment as a last comment (client laughs), although it is, because I realize we’re out of time. (client affirms) So I will see you next week, then! And I’m away the first week of February. It’s still a little ways away, but just to let you know.

CLIENT: Okay, all right. Thank you.

THERAPIST: Okay, very good! Take care!

CLIENT: You, too!

END TRANSCRIPT