TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi! Come on in!

CLIENT: Good morning.

THERAPIST: Morning!

(pause 00:00:26 to 00:00:59)

CLIENT: Did you know you were pregnant when you got engaged?

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: What brought that question to mind? Is it something you’d been thinking about?

CLIENT: Yeah, so, so... I’m very happy for you. I left and I was thinking about it. It occurred to me that I hadn’t asked my usual question of like, “Was this intentional?” But... the timing was different from how some people... order their lives. So... it occurred to me that... that this might have been an experience that was not... planned and... as a result, might have involved some suffering, on your part. So... [00:02:01]

THERAPIST: Hmm! How?

CLIENT: (pause) Well, remembering that I know nothing about your relationship, one could imagine that you... would have a decision to make... and that that would not be an easy one. (pause) So I... you know, I can count okay, so... I was pretty sure of the answer to the question before I asked it, but I thought it was important to talk about, because it seemed like, it seemed like it says a lot about me. I was also interested in you, and wanted to express my interest in your life and... You know, I think it (chuckles) it says a lot that my initial response was just like, very positive, because that’s not always my initial response. I also tend to ascribe to you, I think, the highest possible intentionality. So... Not that it’s troubling for me in any way if you like, are not the ideal person. Just that like, as a default assumption, you get the ideal values. So... [00:03:36]

THERAPIST: And how would this be less than ideal?

CLIENT: Um, I... (chuckles) (pause)

THERAPIST: I’m... I’m seriously trying to just follow how you’re thinking.

CLIENT: Well, so, so the... (pause) In the abstract sense (not talking specifically about your relationship), often pregnancies that then result in engagements were not planned. That... situation leads to choices that people may or may not have made otherwise. So...

THERAPIST: Not at my age! (client affirms) Pregnancies do not happen at my age! (chuckles)

CLIENT: Okay. (pause) Well, again, congratulations! [00:04:47]

THERAPIST: Thank you. (pause) So you’re thinking people don’t try to get pregnant if they’re not married.

CLIENT: Um... (chuckles) Many people don’t try to get pregnant if they’re not married. Again, that doesn’t say anything about... your specific circumstances, I think, so...

THERAPIST: Maybe. I’m not sure that, but... okay.

CLIENT: Well, so there is this sort of like a distribution of behaviors in the world, right? So, knowing that, knowing the sequence of events doesn’t tell me anything about... other than you fall in some distribution of behavior, but you could fall at either tail, so... It’s less likely, but that doesn’t... I also have no idea how old you are, so I (chuckles)... Your response is an amusing one, in some ways. [00:05:55]

THERAPIST: How so?

CLIENT: Well, it’s just like that, but... I know you’re older than I am, but I... That’s like... That doesn’t bound things very much. I know you’re not 80, so...

THERAPIST: But it sounds like... the thought process was, your immediate response was congratulations, you were very happy. And then you thought about it after, and tried to sort of fit these timelines into things that felt familiar to you, that you know, and then started to kind of wonder, maybe even worry a little bit.

CLIENT: Oh, yeah. Yeah, that’s almost exactly right.

(pause 00:06:35 to 00:07:56)

Yeah, and then part of the worry, I think, is... you know... are you okay? I’m pretty sure you’re okay, because you, or at least that you will tell me that you are, because I’m not really your support network, so... nor should I be, probably. But... (pause) But also like... my response does not like... necessarily take into account your... feelings or circumstances in the matter. So... Yeah. It would not necessarily be the case that you were wholly happy about... where your life is at the moment, and so... [00:09:12]

THERAPIST: Which could be true, whether I were married first or not.

CLIENT: Absolutely, absolutely. But (chuckles), but again, I sort of ascribe to you very high intentionality, so it’s sort of like, that, not that... Yeah. So I think it was sort of a recognition that my implicit assumptions were not necessarily valid, that I wasn’t even aware of them. That was the... so... [00:10:12]

THERAPIST: But then just the different set of implicit assumptions just kicked in.

CLIENT: Um... (sighs) No. They’re much more explicit at that point.

THERAPIST: A different set of assumptions?

CLIENT: Yeah, but I was aware of them, and as a result, aware that they had no (chuckles) particular... I try to be very careful in phrasing this, because like, I really don’t know anything about, other than, like... So...

THERAPIST: Well, it seems like it’s sort of, this is about what it’s like, operating with not a lot of information. You know, trying to fill in what things could mean for me.

CLIENT: Yeah, I guess that’s true, too. Yeah, absolutely. You know, on the other hand, there is a wealth of information here, you know. It explains why you’ve stopped drinking coffee, so... But yes, I think that is right.

(pause 00:11:29 to 00:12:33)

So I wondered how uncomfortable this is for you, this conversation has been?

THERAPIST: Well, not really. (client affirms) What was your concern in terms of that? Like, how would I feel uncomfortable?

CLIENT: Um... (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Because the questions are personal?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, we’re talking about a very personal set of questions. (pause) And also, I have been uncomfortable in talking about it and so I... I think I have, as a result, wondered whether you might be uncomfortable also. Mostly, I think because I’m uncomfortable, because I’m worried that I’m going to like... It doesn’t make sense, or that I’m going to run into something that will upset you. (pause) Which doesn’t make a lot of sense, because I, I actually trust you to be able to deal with your emotions like, I really do. So... (pause) Again, I think that says a lot about where I am, at present.

(pause 00:14:11 to 00:15:10)

THERAPIST: I was thinking that, when you refer to the minister, who married you and Tanya, that that first question you asked was whether it was planned.

CLIENT: (chuckles) Yeah. (pause) Yes. It didn’t even occur to me that, when you told me you were pregnant, so...

(pause 00:15:38 to 00:16:00)

Yeah, so I also said last week that my sister was 32 weeks pregnant, so like, you were just starting to show a little bit. So I was sort of wondering like, how far along might you be, as I was walking back to my apartment, which was the point at which I said, “Hmm... the timeline is different from what I would have expected.” So... different from what I would have expected, given the assumptions that... you act only intentionally, which obviously is an absurd assumption about any human. And... that you were following some normal course of life events, which is... has no particular validity, necessarily. Anyway, but that led to the question and all. So the oh, how interesting that it didn’t occur to me to wonder that at all, neither at the beginning or at the end. I was just happy for you. I think that’s because I really like you, and I think you would be a fantastic mother and I think it’s, I think it’s great. [00:17:34]

THERAPIST: Thank you.

CLIENT: And, so you know, assuming that this is what you wanted, I just thought you must be happy, and so I was also very happy for you. I think there is also like... (pause) I certainly think I have a desire for children, in a general sense. Here is this thing that I want and you have that is, and that’s great! I want you to have good things, so...

THERAPIST: (pause) Well, and I was thinking in terms of comparing me to your sister. She is someone who, at least from what you last said, is in not a good situation, in some ways. [00:18:39]

CLIENT: Yeah (chuckles), that’s definitely true. (pause) Somehow, that doesn’t seem particularly important to me, in this context, but maybe it is important and I just don’t... recognize it as such. (pause) I mean, you’re very different people, but also like, the particular trouble she is in is that she’s getting divorced while pregnant, not that she’s getting engaged or married while she was pregnant, so...

(pause 00:19:42 to 00:21:33)

THERAPIST: What are you thinking about?

CLIENT: I’m sort of thinking about... I wasn’t really sure where else to go on this topic. You had sort of... you had mentioned reasoning in the face of not having very much information. You know, certainly you’ve seen some elements of how I reasoned without very much information, which is a situation I’m often in, professionally. It’s just, what we do is we collect data and then try to figure out what the next thing to collect is, and what might be going on, and so forth, so... [00:22:22]

There is a sense in which I’m comfortable with... that. There is also a sense in which one the reasons that I like experimental science is that... for the most part, one can query without... There are usually financial and temporal costs associated with it, but... (inaudible) ever needs to be known, then you go find it out and then have the answers. There is something nice about that.

(pause 00:23:00 to 00:23:39)

One of the places I thought this conversation might go... but that it hasn’t exactly... We talked several weeks ago, at the end of a session, about like, sensitivity to other people or something like that. I forget exactly how you phrased it. So, I thought there were elements of that in this, and it might lead us in that direction again, but... I don’t have anything to say on it, it’s just like, anything that I thought might come up.

(pause 00:24:12 to 00:24:41)

THERAPIST: Does my being pregnant make you think more about your wish for children? You had mentioned that.

(pause 00:24:49 to 00:25:29)

CLIENT: (chuckles) I am not actually sure how to answer that. Yes? No? (chuckles) I have thought about it, as a result... But I think about it occasionally, anyway. And I might otherwise have thought about it in the context of Tanya being acutely unwell, because... it really does not seem like... (pause) It does not seem like that’s a desire that will be fulfilled in the near term. Or something like that. (pause) So, in response to your sort of causal question, I have no idea, but...

(pause 00:26:45 to 00:29:24)

So, entirely unrelatedly, I’m very sad. It’s been a trying week. Again, unrelatedly, but... So Tanya’s father came to visit this weekend, which was... well intentioned, but made her very anxious, in part because they’re unable to make reasonable travel plans on a reasonable schedule. So it was still like, they were still making travel plans on Thursday and they came on Friday, so... By then, Tanya was already anxious about feeling like she had to help with the planning and figure things out and didn’t want to do that. She had just... done her three days of nannying (ph) right after getting out of the hospital, so... [00:30:22]

She had mostly cleared her weekend schedule, so that she could have time to recover, and then had to deal with the emotional turmoil caused by dealing with her father. It was also a good visit like, once he was here. I think it was very good for her, but... (pause) It was complicated by some... Tanya had also agreed to dog-sit for a friend. Several... I don’t know, a month or more ago, and so she did that also. So they (chuckles) they all stayed at... her brother came up also. They also stayed at her friend’s apartment, which... was fine. For me, that’s very weird, but it’s fine. [00:31:24]

THERAPIST: “For me is very weird,” meaning that you think it’s strange that they did that, or... for you that...

CLIENT: Yeah. It was just a strange thing to do. “Oh, you’re dog sitting for someone. Well, we’ll just come stay with you in someone else’s house,” like... Tanya’s immediate response was, “Well, I have to ask the person whose house it is whether that’s okay, but, yeah, I guess we can do that.” So it was okay with... that person, but, still just, for me, a very strange thing. I see it as equivalent to inviting yourself to someone’s house that you don’t know. At least the way I was raised, there were some social norms against doing that sort of thing, but I was raised in a weird place, so... who knows?

But that was also... I guess, in the other sense of... your question, that you were asking me about, it was trying for me, in the sense that I didn’t go stay with them, because that seemed like a nightmare. But... there was, so like, Friday night, before they got in, and Sunday after they left, Tanya stayed down there. I knew Tanya was really not doing well, so her being alone was anxiety inducing for me.

(pause 00:33:04 to 00:33:44)

Yeah, there is a sense in which I knew this was coming (sighs) a week before it happened, because... her father had e-mailed while she was in the hospital and said, “You know, I would like to come up and visit you. Is that okay?” Tanya said, “Yeah, I’d love to see you. Why don’t you come up after I get out?” Because... she apparently has no ability to project herself into the future, and think about what her emotional state will be, and the impact of her father visiting.

THERAPIST: Because if she did, she would be less likely to have him come?

CLIENT: Yeah! Yeah! (chuckles) If she had been able to... get... like, a quarter of... what it was going to be like, in her head, when she was replying to that e-mail, she would have said, “Why don’t you come in a month or something. Or never.” But I actually think it’s good that he did come visit. I think that’s a good thing. I think it was poorly timed, and poorly planned, and caused a lot of stress, and it didn’t relieve a lot of stress. So that seems like the opposite of the point, when you’re trying to visit your daughter, who just got out of the hospital for mental illness. So... (pause) But ultimately, it comes down to he needed to see her. That’s why he came up. He needed to feel like he was taking care of her. [00:35:22]

THERAPIST: Are you annoyed at him?

CLIENT: Was I? (therapist affirms) Or am I?

THERAPIST: Both. (inaudible).

CLIENT: I sure seem like I am, don’t I? (therapist affirms) (pause) Yeah, I think I was. Yeah. But, you know, this is the sort of, this was just (chuckles) how they exist in the world, as a family unit, so like, there is some resignation to that also.

(pause 00:35:58 to 00:36:50)

Yeah, at the end of the day, I can deal with annoyance... (pause) It’s less clear to me how to deal with Tanya’s inability to deal with anxiety or stress or pick a word.

(pause 00:37:17 to 00:38:40)

Yeah, I don’t know what to say.

THERAPIST: (pause) Less clear how to deal with it, because it’s so unpleasant.

CLIENT: Yeah, it’s unpleasant. There is nothing really I can do to escape it. I... it’s acute for a long time.

(pause 00:39:24 to 00:40:08)

It’s packed with uncertainty. It seems like I might have some control or influence, but I don’t actually. So it leaves me in this position of feeling like, “Well, if I had just, you know, am a little more supportive, it will get better,” when in fact, how supportive I am is almost irrelevant to whether it gets better or worse. My actions are, mean very little, but I mean, it’s very easy to continue to do more and more, with essentially no payoff, which itself like... presents it, if the things I do don’t matter, which I know is what I just said, but I mean, don’t matter in, I guess, some other sense. [00:41:00]

(pause) I’m not sure there is another sense, though. That’s interesting. So... Yeah. Trying to influence things that are not actually... things that I can influence makes me feel powerless. Who would have thought? (pause) But then there is the uncertainty again, right? Because some of the things I do actually matter, but... I have no idea which they will be, on any given day.

(pause 00:41:47 to 00:43:30)

What are you thinking?

THERAPIST: I was going back to what you started with, in talking about sort of seeing me as someone who is intentional, and then worrying about circumstances being not ideal. I just started thinking about ideal in particular. You know, what it means to deal with not ideal situations and view it like, “I feel fine with that.” And how... well, probably, by definition all situations are not ideal, since ideal is not in reality. But I just, yeah, I started to think about that, different circumstances under which people actual (inaudible).

(pause 00:44:17 to 00:44:51)

And I just thought about circumstances that you want to have to deal with and then the circumstances that you actually have to deal with.

CLIENT: Do you mean me, or the generalized you?

THERAPIST: You... both, I think. (pause) All this, just various friends and so forth going through “not ideal” situations that have turned out really nicely for them. I mean, if the certain parameters were not as they would have set them up. (pause) And so maybe it’s about flexibility, not quite flexibility, but something like that.

CLIENT: So that makes sense, and, you know, I started, had a few hackles raised towards the end of what you were saying, because there is a sort of interpretation in which I could read you as saying like, “Well, you should just be okay with where your life is right now.” (therapist denies) “It will be okay,” which... (chuckles) Thank you for clarifying, but I didn’t really...

THERAPIST: No, I wasn’t saying that at all. [00:45:57]

CLIENT: I didn’t really think that, that you were. I think it’s interesting in the context I was talking about. I can deal with Tanya’s father coming to visit, and her family’s (chuckles) strange circumstances. You know, I bitch about a little bit to you, or to my other more intentional friends, but like I can deal with it just fine. I actually like seeing them. But I really don’t know how to deal with this, and...

THERAPIST: Even though I said, I want to, I realize we’ve run out of time (client affirms), but, and I won’t, and of course, I can’t (inaudible) to say, but I definitely did not, that was not what I was thinking about at all.

CLIENT: Thanks.

THERAPIST: But let’s pick this up next week, okay?

CLIENT: Thank you.

THERAPIST: Okay. Take care!

CLIENT: Thanks, you too.

THERAPIST: Okay, thanks.

END TRANSCRIPT