TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi. Come on in. (PAUSE)

CLIENT: Are you uncomfortable with me sitting in this chair?

THERAPIST: No. I’m fine.

CLIENT: Okay. I am uncomfortable with it which is why I’m doing it?

THERAPIST: Yeah? What made you decide to? (PAUSE)

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER) That’s a question I’m not sure I can answer. But I can give you the reasons that I’m uncomfortable with it. It’s about a foot closer to you. There’s no stool between the chairs. (PAUSE) I guess I’m... (PAUSE) I asked if you were uncomfortable with it because I’m also uncomfortable with the idea that you might be uncomfortable with it because I’m moving closer to you. So I think I worry that that might feel threatening or something like that. [00:01:15]

THERAPIST: Threatening how?

CLIENT: Uh... (PAUSE) (LAUGHTER) (PAUSE) I’m not sure. Not sure. (PAUSE) [00:02:00]

(PAUSE) I’m going to move on because I think we’ll get back to the same subject later.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And I don’t know really how to answer it. So, you know, sitting here and staring at a question is probably not going to get us somewhere. So... Have you been married before?

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: Okay. Have you been pregnant before?

THERAPIST: I’m happy to explore the questions but I’m curious about how many... There’s more now than... [00:03:07]

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:03:09)

THERAPIST: Well, yeah. Not only that there’s a lot but that it’s a pretty shift. And so clearly there’s something on your mind that you’re thinking about and working, trying to work out. (PAUSE)

CLIENT: You mean, it’s a big shift from me not asking questions to asking questions?

THERAPIST: Mm hmm.

CLIENT: Okay. (PAUSE) (LAUGHTER) Um... (PAUSE) So I am and have been for most of the time that I’ve been seeing you very curious about you and I guess I... I don’t... I have a hard time saying whether I’m more curious now than I have been before. [00:04:11]

But I also have been protecting you from that curiosity, perhaps protecting myself from... (PAUSE) ...the negative feelings associated with... (PAUSE) ...stepping past your comfort zone and also rejections. You know, maybe you don’t want to tell me anything about you. But I want to know. That might hurt. That’s one thing and then... (PAUSE) [00:05:00]

Maybe you’re okay telling me some things but I ask something that, you know, reaches too deep or hurts to think about or something like that. (PAUSE) I don’t want to hurt you. So those are sort of the reasons that I haven’t asked questions, I think. So I feel like... (SIGH) (PAUSE) Or some of the reasons. I expect there are more. (PAUSE) I feel like those are artificial barriers. They’re ones I’ve constructed. They’re not ones you have. So, they’re, in a sense, barriers that I’ve constructed to intimacy with you. And I’m trying to lower them and also trust you to tell me what your boundaries are instead of drawing some other line to avoid finding them. [00:06:09]

I’m not sure that’s all that’s going on. But that’s a part of it. (PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Well, I’m wondering also if my pregnancy is also sort of further stimulating your curiosity.

CLIENT: (SIGH) (PAUSE) It is another thing to be curious about. (PAUSE) But I... (PAUSE) Yeah. I’m not sure. My feeling is that it’s more coincidental timewise because about the same time I found out that, that you told me that you were pregnant, we were talking about my feelings for you and so it’s sort of all like... [00:07:11]

I think it’s coincidental. It just happens to be a thing about which I am curious. Clearly, it’s a part of your life. And I sort of have a sense that, you know, your life is changing and is going to continue to change. (PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Well... It’s so... In theory, I live somewhere, right. My pregnancy is so conspicuous and it’s not a theory.

CLIENT: Yeah. But also like you live somewhere but your house is very personal and not that personal at the same time in some ways. But maybe that is just a feature of the conspicuousness. I don’t know. (PAUSE) [00:08:00]

You know, the question I asked you is very personal and where you live is a different kind of personal. So... (PAUSE)

THERAPIST: And knowing these things about me, is there sort of a feeling that that way you’ll feel closer to me? What are your thoughts about that?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

THERAPIST: And is that... I mean, there, it’s more nuanced to it than this. But is that the goal, in a sense?

CLIENT: (SIGH) It’s a goal. I don’t want to say it’s the only goal because it’s also like the practice of doing it seems to be an important thing. So that’s a goal. But there’s also just like I am curious. I don’t know why I’m curious. I just am curious. So does that make sense at all? [00:08:57]

THERAPIST: Yeah, I mean, I think though the question for us to think about as so why... I mean, not that why puts it as if there’s something wrong with it. I don’t mean why in a bad sense. But just like what does it mean why?

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER) Well...

THERAPIST: Because it means a lot clearly. (PAUSE)

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER) So I... (PAUSE) Yeah. I don’t know. I’m more or less always curious like about almost everything. So it’s like... (PAUSE) I’m not sure if you mean to be asking the question “why is that.”

THERAPIST: Maybe. [00:10:01]

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER) Okay. And I really don’t know about that. I feel like you’re asking the more specific question of why am I curious about you or these particular things is important which I think is a very reasonable question. But I sort of can’t separate from the other one of like why am I generally curious. I like to know things. I... (PAUSE) I think usually, “I find it interesting,” is a sufficient answer for, “why are you curious about that thing.” I realize that’s not the case here. It seems like there are other important things too. But... (PAUSE) [00:11:00]

In a professional context, this question comes up like, “Why do you want to study that thing?” And that’s a hard question to answer for a lot of different reasons in part because the people that have the funding to allow you to study things don’t have the same motivations that most people studying them have. Like I have the sense that at least some people, my advisors, some of my friends do academic work just because we’re curious about things. We want to know how the world works and how these particular things work. What can you do? That’s not necessarily the purpose of funding. It’s a purpose that comes and goes in public funding depending on... (PAUSE) [00:12:00]

(PAUSE) But, at the end of the day, it comes down to I want to solve specific problems but I also just want to know things. I get interested in a specific problem and then want to understand it and solve it. I don’t want to feel like you’re a problem that I need to solve. But I’m curious about you and who you are and why you are who you are and... (PAUSE) But that’s always the case for people that I care about. (PAUSE) [00:13:00]

(PAUSE) You know, on the level of simple curiosity, is it hard to date as a couples counselor? I would imagine that would be difficult.

THERAPIST: How so?

CLIENT: So... (LAUGHTER) Tanya (ph) has a few friends who are women and priests. They find it difficult to date because most men that they meet... (PAUSE) ...sort of response in one of two ways. [00:14:11]

One of which is how they want to tell them everything about their personal spiritual journey immediately as if this is a person to lean on not a relationship to form or they sort of like, “Whoa. Okay,” and leave. So it’s... I imagine it could be similar not that your experience has to match. But so... (PAUSE) I feel like it... (PAUSE) I mean, do you feel like I have not expressed curiosity about you before?

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: Okay. I feel like I have been saying that I’m curious about you for a long time and not asking questions. [00:15:03]

I guess I’m asking whether that has actually coming across. That would have been something I thought I was saying but wasn’t.

THERAPIST: No. But it’s more obvious in your asking and the questions that you have.

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER) Sure. (PAUSE)

THERAPIST: And I guess I asked about the pregnancy piece because many of the questions that you’re asking is around pregnancy and my relationship and so forth. So the curiosity seems to revolve around that in particular. [00:16:01]

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: Yeah, I think it’s generally true that I’m very curious about your relationships. (PAUSE) [00:17:00]

(PAUSE) Yeah, the other question that I have is what does your husband do? What is his occupation? (PAUSE) Yeah. I don’t... (PAUSE) I don’t have a clear sense of why that is. (PAUSE) [00:18:00]

(PAUSE) I think it’s because I have a sense that they’re important in some way. (PAUSE) You know, I asked if you were happy or content some time ago. That was an important question to me. But I feel like you have sort of suggested loosely that you take care of yourself in a lot of ways and you have a lot of relationships and that is one of the ways that you take care of yourself. [00:19:03]

That may be me reading into what you said. But that is the sort of general sense that I got that is you have a sort of support network of some kind. Between that and some sort of internal strength that you have, you are able to do the work that you do. (PAUSE) I’m also reminded of one of the professors on my committee who likes to find aphorisms and one of the things that he likes to point out is that humans are more sensitive to change than they are to things that stay the same. So this is a thing that’s changing. We see motion better than we see static objects. So this is, you know... Maybe that comes back to conspicuous in some sense. [00:20:07]

But also like this is clearly a thing that’s changing in your life and life is changing in pretty good ways. So that like raises my “Oh Change” alerts or something. Then clearly I have questions like, “How much is this a change?” “What kind of change is this?” (PAUSE) I can stop asking questions if you want me to.

THERAPIST: Where did that come from? [00:20:59]

CLIENT: Me. (LAUGHTER) You know, you’re asking why I’m asking questions. One possibility is that you’re uncomfortable with me asking questions. So...

THERAPIST: No. I want to understand where it’s coming from.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: I’m not feeling uncomfortable.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: But I’m feeling that this is extremely important to you and we’re here to understand what’s important to you for sure. And it seems like there’s kind of some anxiety around it too. (PAUSE) [00:22:00]

CLIENT: Yeah. It’s hard. Every time I ask you a question, I tell you something about myself, about what I’m curious about, about the things that matter to me in some way. I tell you how much you matter to me and... (PAUSE) Yeah. I think I am deeply afraid of disappointment or loss. Neither of those capture the right sentiment. So, yeah, there’s a sense of... I’m also afraid of hurting other people. I don’t like to do that and so there’s sort of... There’s anxiety around that. [00:23:09]

THERAPIST: Well, as a result of being pregnant, I’m going to be away for some period of time.

CLIENT: Yeah. Actually, that... (SIGH) (LAUGHTER) I’m okay with that, I think. So Tanya asked me a couple weeks ago. I told her that I was going to see you more frequently because you were going to be gone for a while or the payment we had worked out because you were going to be gone for a while. She said, “So, are you going to be okay?” (LAUGHTER) Chad (ph) is out of town or on vacation this week. She was apprehensive about that at the time. So she was drawing on her own experience and suggesting that that would be a very hard things for me. I don’t have the sense that that’s true. [00:24:09]

I think if you were to disappear for six weeks without me knowing where you were, that would be really hard. But... (PAUSE) I sort of... In some sense, you know... (PAUSE) Childbirth is dangerous but in the modern day is not that dangerous compared to historically. (PAUSE) So you’ll probably be fine barring those complications. I have complete certainty in some sense. I know what you’re doing. (PAUSE) [00:25:00]

(PAUSE) Yeah. I really don’t like uncertainty, I think. (PAUSE) You know, you’ll go away. You’ll come back. Assuming I’m still in Denver... I hope I am because I like talking to you. You’ll come back and we’ll resume. It’ll be hard at first probably. That seems to be the pattern. But then it will be okay. (PAUSE) [00:26:00]

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: But it does seem like, in addition to the curiosity, there’s something that you’re sort of struggling or grappling with. (PAUSE)

CLIENT: (SIGH) (PAUSE)

THERAPIST: And I’m very curious... I’m curious about you choosing to sit in a chair that makes you feel uncomfortable. (PAUSE) [00:27:00]

(PAUSE) [00:28:00]

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: So my initial thought is, you know, I don’t come here because I want to be in pain forever since I come here for exactly the opposite reason. I have the sense that like there are things in my life both that are causing me pain and there are things in the past that have caused a great deal of pain... (PAUSE) But I also get the sense sometimes that there are particular things that I do or find uncomfortable that... (PAUSE) ...I just need to do. [00:29:11]

There’s actually... Sitting in this chair is actually not that different from sitting in that chair. The view is a little bit different. It sort of impacts things a little bit. I’m actually about a foot closer and there’s no stool. I don’t have anything that I’m hiding behind. (PAUSE) [00:30:00]

(PAUSE) But I think, in a general sense, I am exploring my fear. I think that’s my macro view of why I’m sitting in this chair today... (PAUSE) ...which is definitely something I’ve been doing for a while, largely as a result of interacting with you. (PAUSE) [00:31:00]

(PAUSE) We spent the end of the session last time talking about what am I afraid of and I could not tell you what I was afraid of. And so you sort of closed the session suggesting that it was uniquely difficult for me to deal with disappointment or find life again afterwards which is both very true and I found very frustrating. I feel like I expressed briefly some of my frustration. (LAUGHTER) We know this. We’ve knowing this for a while. (PAUSE) That does not... That doesn’t point a way forward which is hilarious as a life microscopic repetition of the macroscopic problem which is I feel frustrated in response to that and sort of, “How do we go forward.” But that is exactly the question that you were suggesting I have that... (PAUSE) So... Anyway, so the... (PAUSE) [00:32:15]

I had some frustration and despair to work through when I left. (PAUSE) Which was a really interesting process. (PAUSE) You know, you might remember the time early on that you were sort of asking questions about my mother and I said, “Okay. I’m done here.” I didn’t have the same sense of like, “I should just stop.” [00:33:01]

You know, I sort of had an overriding sense that while it was disappointing this time to end on that particular note, to feel like I don’t have an answer to this question, and, in some sense, we hadn’t covered any ground. Like we were back at the same point of... (PAUSE) Yes. Despair is a thing I struggle with. I would hope that we would cover more ground than that. I’m expressing my feelings at the time not telling you what I actually think. I think we have covered a lot of ground. (PAUSE) (SIGH) (PAUSE) But, in this particular case, it was very clear to me what the solution was. The solution was to come back today. [00:33:59]

The way forward was clear and I had no disinclination to take the way forward. Just was frustrating to be where I was. (PAUSE) I can’t remember exactly the path of thoughts that led to the end of that... But the end of that was a realization that I’ve already given you today which is I deeply fear disappointment. I think it was sort of like you had asked, “What are you afraid of,” maybe not those words, “So we can figure out whether it’s real or not.” [00:35:07]

You know, it’s very real. I have been deeply disappointed, for lack of a better word...

THERAPIST: Oh, I wouldn’t say, “Let’s figure out what you’re afraid of so we can figure out whether it’s real or not.” That would not be the second half of that sentence for me.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: I felt the need to interrupt you there.

CLIENT: I’m glad you did. It’s very interesting that you would say that. You definitely, in association with fears, suggested that they may or may not be real or the thing in which I’m afraid may or may not be real in the context of why am I afraid of intimacy with Tanya. At least that’s how I heard it. [00:35:57]

THERAPIST: Yeah. I guess... I don’t... That’s just not how I frame things.

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: They’re real because... I mean, what’s a real fear versus not?

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: So I... The goal, in my mind, the goal of exploring the fear is not to find whether it’s real or not.

CLIENT: Yeah. So... (PAUSE) I feel like I’ve mangled what you’ve said now. But I... (PAUSE) But I do feel like you suggested that the... (PAUSE) ...not the fear but the thing of which I am afraid may not be real. (PAUSE) Which seem like different things to me. They may not be different things. [00:37:05]

THERAPIST: I think I’m not following. Let me try to follow along.

CLIENT: Okay. Fear is a feeling. But it’s a feeling about a thing, about an event that may or may not happen. And it might not be possible for that thing to happen. And, in that sense, the thing that one might be afraid might be unreal.

THERAPIST: But all events could possibly happen. I mean, you could be afraid of the end of the world and that’s a possibility too. (LAUGHTER) So... (PAUSE)

CLIENT: So, you know, being who I am, this is a case where I’m actually... I would say, “Well, what do the data say? What does the transcript say that you said that I heard different from what you said?” That’s... Not that we actually need to do that but that’s how I function.

THERAPIST: You heard me very differently, it sounds like.

CLIENT: Clearly I heard you very differently than whatever you meant to be said. Now I’m sort of curious about what you meant to be saying. [00:38:09]

(PAUSE) At any rate... (PAUSE) (LAUGHTER) The realization that I had that I felt like was really important was that I was afraid of disappointment or loss. These are things that really hurt. They have hurt in the past. I’m afraid of them happening again. This is particularly true in the case of Tanya. I’m afraid of putting my trust in her again. I really opened myself up to her and relied on her and then she went away. That really hurts. (PAUSE) And so I guess I... I don’t know if I told you. But she’s been doing better recently. Like she’s been really well for the last three weeks or month. [00:39:05]

Which has been really nice. It’s actually been... I have been able to enjoy her being herself in some sense. But I know it’s going to go away. And you might quip that I don’t know that. But I’m sure it’s going to go away. I could be wrong. But I’m still certain about it. That’s not a common feature about me. Usually I remain agnostic about the things I can’t know or I try to. You know, I form theories and hypotheses and there’s a different category than knowing. But I feel like I know that she’s going to get bad again and then she’s going to go away. So why would I start to rely on her again? I feel like I’ve tried to express this view repeatedly. But I always feel like I stumble through it or something. [00:40:09]

THERAPIST: Well, I was thinking... (PAUSE) This isn’t beside the point but there’s other points besides this. But I was thinking it depends on what you put in the foreground and background. Because even if you’re sure it’ll go away, I would say that you’re similarly sure that it’ll come back again because being sure it’ll go away is sort of seeing a cycle which I’m not 100% sure, you know, you’re (inaudible at 00:40:37)

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: I don’t know if this is an upward trend or cycle. But thinking it’s a cycle certainly seems possible. She’ll come back again. But what’s in the foreground is her going away. Which I don’t mean to be quibbling or focusing on her coming back but it’s just to give a sort of perspective on that take.

CLIENT: Yeah. I appreciate that and think there’s something interesting in that. I’ve been thinking if you ask me what I think of something, I’m more likely to respond with the things I don’t like about it. My guess is you are more likely to respond with the things you do like about it. [00:41:11]

I think we might eventually (inaudible at 00:41:15) but I think that’s how we both might start. So I think this is an interesting example of that same thing. I am not as sure that she will come back. That is... So, yeah, maybe it’s a cycle. It’s seemed to both of us, Tanya and I, that this has had some features of a hypomanic episode. She suggested it to me but I had been thinking it independently which would sort of suggest diagnostically that it’s bipolar too or something like that. But the problem is that the good phases are intermittent. There is a cycle but the good phases will last and presumably over time, one works toward not existing in either extreme but somewhere that is normal and acceptable. That’s... [00:42:08]

That’s an aspiration rather than something about which I have any certainty. The only thing about which I am certain is that she will get bad again. I’m not certain that she will live. I’m not certain that there will be a good time again. So... (SIGH) (PAUSE) I feel like I should apologize now for having that view. But I’m not going to.

THERAPIST: Why do you feel like you even should?

CLIENT: I don’t know.

THERAPIST: To me? You need to apologize to me?

CLIENT: That’s the feeling.

THERAPIST: What have you done to me to have that view or that you feel that you need to apologize for?

CLIENT: I’m not sure. But I wanted to tell you I had the feeling so we could explore it. I think, in some sense, I’ve rejected the hope that you were extending or the positive vision. So I think I feel bad about that, I think. [00:43:01]

(PAUSE) Yeah. I think that’s right. (PAUSE)

THERAPIST: I have no emotional commitment to that view.

CLIENT: Okay. Thanks. That’s helpful. (PAUSE) So this fear of loss takes a whole lot of forms. In searching for a job, I’m afraid that... I have a very good advisor now. I’m afraid that I will be in a situation where I have a less good advisor, somebody who is not supportive. And so there’s a loss associated with that. I’m afraid that I will get trapped into something I don’t like or enjoy. That’s not a reason not to do it. But that’s just a thing to be aware of and take into account when I’m selecting my work. [00:44:06]

So there’s sort of another place where like the fear is important and it’s saying something but it’s... It’s also trying to say more than it should be allowed to say. So I should pay attention to it but then do what I need to do. So... (PAUSE) Is that sensible? Have I said... Okay. (PAUSE) I mean, the context of... (PAUSE) ...of Tanya again divorces a safe thing that would be a great loss for me in some ways, surrendering some particular set of my values or piece of my value set. It would also mean, in some sense, like surrendering my remaining faith in Tanya, whatever there is left of that. [00:45:11]

I talked some, I think two weeks ago, about feeling disappointment in myself for thinking about it and telling people about it as a result. So, you know (inaudible at 00:45:25) kindly told me that I was wrong, that other people would not be disappointment in me particularly those who knew what was going on. So I can confirm that you were correct in that. I knew you were at the time. But it still didn’t feel true. So having had that realization about disappointment, I was able to talk it with some of my close friends. So...

THERAPIST: That’s good. I don’t mean to interrupt. I realize, you’ve... We’ve run a little long.

CLIENT: Oh I’m sorry.

THERAPIST: No, no, no. It’s not your fault. Please.

CLIENT: The clock is...

THERAPIST: Yeah. That clock is slow. I know that clock is slow. Oh, if you ever even notice that clock... I should set it correctly. It’s few minutes slow.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: But I’ll see you tomorrow. And tomorrow we’re meeting at 11:50.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: Okay. Great. So I will you then.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Okay. Take care. [00:46:07]

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