TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: From heavy rain?

CLIENT: Yeah. I'm in the middle of having lunch with a friend and he was like, "Oh, flash flood warnings for tonight." I'm like, "Okay. Whatever." We leave and we're like, "Or now," because it's starting to pour. I think we both made it inside before it totally started.

THERAPIST: I'm sorry I'm so late.

CLIENT: That's okay. (pause) (laughs)

THERAPIST: What's on your mind?

CLIENT: I don't know. There are two things. What popped into my mind when I first sat down was that Zoe called me on Sunday. [00:01:05] She was like, "I know this is late, but it was your birthday weekend." I was like, "Oh, I was just happy that you called." We chatted a little bit and discussed this movie that was set where we grew up, made by someone that we know. There is a character in the movie who is also based on a student. The student's name is [Luddie Grima.] (ph?)

THERAPIST: Luddie Grima?

CLIENT: He's from Africa and the character's name is Luddie Grima.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: Yeah. The character is also African, the one I'm talking about. [00:02:03] I think he moved into my school district in middle school and then his family moved away. What was really weird is that his family moved and then the next school year another black male student moved in who was our year, so it was like this weird one-to-one relation. That was weird in many ways. Everyone always used to talk about Luddie's name. It was unusual. We were talking about it a little bit and I was thinking about it. I remember him as being popular, charismatic and funny. [00:03:11] I was trying to figure out when he moved away. I think it was maybe freshman or sophomore year of high school. It was also always awkward because his friends still made jokes about his name and I don't know if he was okay about that. That was never clear to me. He was really distraught about moving because I think he was stressing about moving to the Midwest. Weirdly, when I came to Cambridge as a freshman, he was here. [00:03:58] I walked over to see a friend of mine from high school, a girlfriend. I walked over to her dorm and then someone else yelled out the window at us and we look and we're like, "What the fuck?" The other thing that was kind of clear in this weird way was that he had a really shitty time in high school, being probably the only black kid in the school.

THERAPIST: [...] (inaudible at 00:04:27)

CLIENT: Yeah. It was weird, sort of undiscussed, but a thing. Now he's a super-successful consultant. It's also always weird – I often find it weird when I see... [00:05:01] When I was an undergrad I was not very involved with any of the black student groups, so I knew once I, despite Cambridge being big and the whole point of me going to Cambridge was to be anonymous, but it is weird. I think, especially a lot of Cambridge students, but it's just kind of weird to keep seeing this sort of – I don't know black digerati or lawyer MBA. The Black Association keeps being full of Cambridge students because – sure. It's weird when I kind of know them. That's not what I want to do with my life, but it's still like you seem to be really successful and have a big pot of money and I don't [00:06:10] But I didn't want to get an MBA, so I don't know. Most of the non-white students at Cambridge had very serious drive. I would say more drive because of people saying like "you only got in because you're black or Latino." It's like being underestimated and getting into Cambridge is kind of like a stamp of approval, like you are officially smart or you have officially made it or whatever. [00:07:12] And they got degrees like [...] (inaudible at 00:07:16) and then you go to wherever you go. I know this is not unique to people of color at Cambridge. A lot of Cambridge students do this. Yes, they're all very driven and creepy – I mean not all, but whatever. We were talking and then we were talking about Luther, the kid who replaced Luddie.

THERAPIST: You and Zoe?

CLIENT: Me and Zoe. We were just chit-chatting like, "I wonder what became of him?" and she's like, "Oh, he became a pro football player." I was like "No." [00:08:01] It was weird because I couldn't find his picture in our list of senior pictures and he wasn't listed as someone who wasn't photographed. I'm flipping through my yearbook and I found photos of him and he was, I'm pretty sure, a senior. It was her yearbook, but I was just like "what?" Zoe was like, "No, no, no. It's Luther Graham." I was like, "No, there is another Luther Graham who is black, but I think that's another person." There was Luther Martin, who was our year, and then there was someone younger named Luther Graham, who eventually became a professional football player and played for the Patriots. Then in high school, he had actually done track and field. It was weird. [00:09:04] It was just like this weird little back and forth. She was like, "No, I think Luther Martin was a year below us. I don't remember him in our classes." I was like, "No, no, no. I'm pretty sure he was our year," and we went back and forth. The reason why I'm pretty sure he was our year is because I remember vividly people trying to set us up together to go to the prom and both of us were like "no," we have nothing in common. Zoe said, "No. That's ridiculous. Blah, blah, blah. Do you remember anything talked about?" I dropped it and was like whatever. [00:10:02]

THERAPIST: It's not surprising, right?

CLIENT: No. She had been defensive when I asked her about it directly and was then kind of like, "Well, you know..." but no. A few minutes later she was like, "Oh, I have to go. Dinner reservations. Blah, blah, blah. Bye." It was just very – I don't know. I was really happy when she called at the beginning of the call, and then I was just thinking "why did you call?" the conversation about Luther was frustrating, the "No, no, no. People were trying to set us up." And she was like, "Well, who?" Well, my friends and his friends; and my friends were her friends. [00:11:03] I rattled off a few people that were Luther's friends because I didn't feel like rattling off our friends. Also, I just was frustrated that she called me 15 minutes before her dinner reservation or a half-hour before her dinner reservation. To me, that's what I pull when I don't want to talk to my parents. (laughs) It's a classic "I gotta go." I don't know what she was thinking or doing, but I mentioned race and she was like, "Gotta go. Bye." [00:12:05] Then I sent her a little while later a text being like, "Oh, yeah. It was Luther Graham was a freshman and played football." There was this weird response. Her response was sort of like I just don't know anymore.

THERAPIST: [...] (inaudible at 00:12:30)

CLIENT: Yeah. What it felt like is when someone says "I guess you people will never be satisfied;" like "I try to be sensitive, but you people are always angry." Yeah, [...] (inaudible at 00:12:58) none of your business. Whatever happened happened and I have to go. [00:13:04] I guess part of the awfulness, the beginning part of the phone call is always good and then it's really not. I had decided that I wouldn't initiate a phone call to her – like after I got off the phone with her I was like, "You get to make the next phone call." (pause) [00:13:59] So, yeah, I guess I feel like I really am stringing myself along on that, like it's not going to get better and I've already been direct, so either she wants to work on that or she doesn't. The answer seems to be that she doesn't, which sucks.

THERAPIST: Sorry about that.

CLIENT: The other thing that also adds to it is that one of our friends is Latino and he also passes as white pretty easily. Actually, he probably passes as Jewish or Italian. [00:15:06] I was thinking and I was like, ‘Yeah, if your hair was just a little curlier," but most people would probably not pick Latino. And so I'm like, "Wow, your boyfriend doesn't look... I don't know if you know that." Obviously she does, but then also I'm kind of like, "What are you doing? Where are you going? Why?" The other thing I was thinking about was that I was having lunch with my ex-boyfriend, Elliott, which is always weird. [00:16:03] (pause) He has dated several people since we broke up, as have I. I'm not holding any feelings towards him and I don't think he does towards me, although (sighs) we had this awkward point in our relationship, which was part of what initiated me breaking up with him. It was that his parents wanted him to marry someone who is Jewish. He has three brothers, two younger, and that wasn't their thing. The three brothers are already going nowhere and so, out of the blue, his dad said to Elliott... [00:16:56]

THERAPIST: Sorry – like "going nowhere" like not going to get married or...?

CLIENT: Yeah. One of them, he didn't have a job and his parents were paying the rent. The other one was a proto-musician who, I think at the time, he sort of got a band together and then the deal had kind of fallen through and he was deejaying. There was no long-term anything going there. I think Elliott just turned 35 or something like that or was nearing 40. They were on vacation and his dad, out of the blue when they were getting on the tour bus...

THERAPIST: I'm sorry. Is this around the time you broke up or...?

CLIENT: Before we broke up, but it was a thing that made me be like "we're breaking up." Previously they had also been like, "If she's not Jewish, she has to convert," like if you're a potential bride. [00:18:01] His dad said, "You know, if you married someone who didn't convert but you raised the kids Jewish, that would be okay." And then got on the tour bus – referring to me. (laughs) Elliott told me this and he was also kind of a little shell-shocked but also a little like, "S-o-o-o." It was this very weird interaction. We were both like, "That was fucked up." And then his parents [never brought it up again.] (ph?)

THERAPIST: But was he on board with them?

CLIENT: With him wanting to marry someone who is Jewish?

THERAPIST: Or raise his kids Jewish or just do what his father said? I assume so, in that you were like, "Okay. We're done." [00:18:59]

CLIENT: It was almost like he wanted to raise his kids Jewish like [...] (inaudible at 00:19:08). He wasn't particularly religious. His family is not particularly religious, but we dated when I was in college and I could get tickets to High Holiday services for free as a student, so we went to High Holiday services together because he asked me to go and I said, "Sure. It's free. Whatever." I think I probably just did it to stay there with him the whole time and do things together, but he's not really religious.

THERAPIST: Like it mattered, but he had to think about it.

CLIENT: Yeah, it' mattered to him. I don't think he cared about marrying someone who is Jewish; I think he cared more that his kids would be Jewish. [00:20:05] Also I don't think he is a particularly – we had never talked about marriage.

THERAPIST: Right. What was awkward about that moment was that his dad said the same. He was telling you about it, but that was like 12 steps ahead of where you were.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Not 12, but – I don't know – more than one.

CLIENT: He is 12 years older than I am, so part of the awkwardness is that, "I see how your compatriots, your friends, are getting married and some of them are having babies or thinking about it. I am not going to get married and have a baby, too." (laughs) And, yeah, it was this weird, "So-o-o," but not direct. [00:21:00] We had talked, at one point, about me moving into his condo, but he is a horrible, horrible, horrible slob, which drove me crazy and also I had said to him, "I don't want to live with you if I don't have a room with a door that I can close." His condo is open. The bedroom has a door and the bathroom has a door and then the rest is kind of open. So we kind of discussed that and he was a little bit hurt by it. I was like, "I don't know what to tell you."

THERAPIST: Is that important? Why was that important?

CLIENT: Why was it important for me to have a room that...? I wanted to have a space that wasn't covered with his crap. [00:22:02]

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: He has high piles of newspapers and everything.

THERAPIST: I see. But really it is as much about his slobbiness as anything else?

CLIENT: Yeah, it was a question of slobbiness and also I just wanted to be able to, because it was so open, there was no good way I could just be quiet or be alone and have some privacy. Now, at this point, I'm positive that if I was living with somebody I would want my own bedroom or my own room with a door. Also, it's a very nice condo, but it's also kind of a single person's condo in a way. [00:23:03] There's one bedroom and the rest of it is all open so, if you had kids, once they were past toddlers you would need to (laughs) – you would have to leave because there's nowhere to put them. I initiated the break-up and part of it – I have a lot of feelings – but part of it is also that I knew I didn't want to marry him. I knew I didn't want to marry him and I also was feeling like half the reason we were dating was just because we were dating – like there was inertia.

THERAPIST: How long were you together?

CLIENT: We were together for like seven years, I think. A while. [00:24:03] Maybe eight. Oh, well.

THERAPIST: I'm sure you mentioned that to me. It's just been a while.

CLIENT: I'm always hazy on how long we dated, but I also felt like the process of me dating him was also preventing him from forming a relationship with someone who was at his stage in life. There were other things, but those were two of them. Now for some reason when I hang out with him I feel very frustrated. [00:25:08] He's, you know, [...] (inaudible at 00:25:13) guy to have in Cambridge or whatever, but he knew this one couple and one of them decided to transition. She was becoming a man and he was like, "That's really weird." I was like, "What?" He was like, "It's really weird. Why would you want to become straight? You're lesbians. Why are you becoming straight?" He kind of thought it was a joke or that it was obviously weird or that describes a lot of my friends. He was just like, "No, no, no. [00:26:03] If they start out trans..." It was this awful kind of bizarre... "I couldn't even date someone who did that and it's kind of weird that you said that." It was also offensive and upsetting. And then when we go to places or events when we're both there, like the IT summit.

THERAPIST: The what?

CLIENT: There's an IT summit and he's part of it.

THERAPIST: Is that what he does?

CLIENT: He's a systems administrator, so it was like IT people from all over (inaudible at 00:26:58). [00:27:02] He clearly wanted my attention and was kind of like, "Why don't you come over here and chat?" I talked to him for a while and went away and he was like, "Where did you go?" He kept on wanting to do thing with me where I'm like, "Okay, but there is this whole room of people. Why are you kind of following me around?" There was some book event we were at that we were both interested in. I saw a friend and started chatting with them and he just started following me – not really entering the conversation, but just like – I don't know. [00:27:57] It was something that used to frustrate me when we dated because I was like, "Just because they're my friends, they're not your friends. Also it's weird when you just stand next to a conversation and don't interact. Stop it." I find it weird that he still does it and when it happened I had this trapped moment of, "I don't want to be rude, but can you go find your own friends or something? I worry that you're going to do something really offensive like that in front of my friends and it makes me really anxious." [00:29:04] We're not dating anymore. I'm not his girlfriend and I feel like he's acting kind of like my needy boyfriend who is lonely –but we're not dating. (laughs)

When we broke up I said that I didn't want to see him or talk to him for either three to six months, not because I hated him, but because I said and I felt that we had all these established ruts and patterns and I wanted to break them. I thought it was successful on my part. [00:30:03] I'm just sort of waiting, like I don't know what to do. I don't want to hurt him because he's not really doing – he's not being malicious. He's just awkward or he feels lonely or he's like there's no one here to hang out with. Or he's like, "You know all these cool people." I'm like, "I do know cool people." But "stop following me around" is what I end up feeling like. Every time this happens, I feel like "I'm not your girlfriend. [00:31:00] I'm not the person who does – whatever emotional – I'm not supposed to fill your emotional needs. Also, you didn't ask. But mostly, I just feel like you're not my boyfriend and I'm not your girlfriend. Stop." I don't think he's aware enough of what he's doing to stop, which is also probably part of why he remains unmarried.

He was dating for quite a while a woman who – they always seemed very close. [00:32:02] She wanted to have kids. She was just like, "I just want to have kids. Fuck waiting for my husband. I want a sperm donor." He was kind of hurt about it. I was like, "But, Elliott, do you want to be a father right now?" He was like, "No." Also, legally you could get custody of her kids that aren't – anonymous sperm donor is the way to go for a variety of reasons. She moved and they still see each other. He still sees the kids and whatever, but – I don't know. (pause) [00:33:00] I feel like I also end up falling into this weird acting-like-his-girlfriend pattern, wanting to make sure he's okay or (pause)...

THERAPIST: Looking after him?

CLIENT: Yeah, because he clearly wants attention and emotional support and all these other things. I find myself falling into feeling like I should provide them – or not even thinking about it that much, just knee-jerk doing it and then I'm like "what am I doing?" (sighs) [00:34:03] (pause) But then I also feel like "what are you doing that you're still..." We've been broken-off for a very long time. (pause) He used to always offer me a ride someplace, like to get groceries. I took him up on it for a while. And then I thought you probably should stop doing that, so I stopped. I stopped my part but he didn't stop his part. I'm confident that if I called him right now and asked him for a ride to the airport or whatever he would say "yes." [00:35:04] (long pause) [00:36:24] I'm also thinking about it because there's this science fiction convention.

THERAPIST: [...] (inaudible at 00:36:38)

CLIENT: Yeah. Basically, you need a ride to it. There is a bus that runs once an hour that drops you off at the side of the highway – sort of. He has given me a ride there a bazillion times. But when he does, he's also like now we're going to the convention together as "con" buddies, but intensely so. [00:37:09] He wants to have every meal with me. He wants to [...] (inaudible at 00:37:12). What are you doing? This year I was like, "All right. Fuck it. I'm arranging rides with someone else. This is getting ridiculous." I guess I kind of dread going (sighs) and having him pulling at me and wanting a lot more from me than I would give to a friend that I haven't talked to that much. [00:37:59]

THERAPIST: I wonder (pause) if you're also worrying a bit about being alone. (pause)

CLIENT: Sort of. I guess Elliott represents the bad way of being alone – or a bad way of being alone. I don't know. I guess I don't really see the connection about is it because I want him to leave me alone?

THERAPIST: Yes. [00:39:01] (pause) There are a lot of aspects to what you're talking about with the core being Elliott. I guess, in a way, I felt like it might have been easier to talk about the way it is sort of disappointing you or the way you feel like [it sucks that you're pushing him away] (ph?) and those things, I think, are probably there, but I wonder if there is something more disturbing where it's more like a crutch or a tail, in a way, or there is something about sort of wanting to be less close to these two people that goes along... [00:40:10] I guess I was thinking as well about your worries about being alone. It's not for me to say. I'm not pulling that directly from something that you say. I guess there are a few things that made me think about it and I'm also kind of playing a hunch.

CLIENT: I don't know. (pause) I guess I don't feel worried about being romantically alone, if that makes sense, and that something that Zoe and Elliott are desperately afraid of. [00:41:03]

THERAPIST: Yeah, maybe that was the other thing with Zoe was the way that she's with somebody but you have not spoken highly of him with that relationship.

CLIENT: I hate him so much. (pause) I think Elliott is also feeling like he would be married by now or in a long-term relationship. I did think I would probably be in a long-term relationship by now, but it doesn't really – like I used to think that, but I don't feel badly. I'm not upset. [00:41:58] I'm not [...] (inaudible at 00:41:59). I'm not going to do the "God damn, I'm getting married before I turn 40," which a couple of people I know have done, and I think that would be terrifying. I think that what Elliott does make me think of is my chronic fear that I'm doing that to people that I think are my friends, like I'm hanging on them; I'm annoying them. (pause) I don't know. [00:43:01] I do understand a lot of where Elliott is coming from. I was with him for so long. He does not notice body language, social cues or anything. You have to hit him with a two-by-four. I don't know. That's part of what makes me feel less neurotic.

THERAPIST: You just don't feel similar to him socially?

CLIENT: Yeah. I'm scared of it, but I also know that that's an irrational fear. [00:44:03] (pause) I guess I don't want to be Elliott. (pause) I don't know. The other thing is that, in some ways, I remember when I was dating him I think we had this conversation at some point where we were talking about parents and I was like, "Is there ever a point where your parents stop treating you like you're their kid, like you're a little kid?" He was like, "Nope." Great. (laughs) He was like, "You're their kid for life." I'm like, "That's probably true." Obviously, your relationship changes, but you're still their kid. I'm just like, "Oh, my God." [00:44:58] Elliott was also horrible someone who made me realize very strongly that with age does not come maturity because we would have these fights or arguments and I would feel all the frustrations I would feel talking to a 23-year-old guy, but I'm talking to a 33-year-old guy; and it drove me crazy. (pause) His comments about this trans person just really – I don't know – brought it home and also he asked me, "What do you think about this?" but wasn't really asking. He was like – it's weird. [00:46:20] Then he persisted with it and I was like, "I think it's fine. I would like you to not." I guess it's also like the relationship I'm really glad I'm not having. It's also a relationship where, when friends of mine run into each other they're like, "You dated him for a lot of years?" And I'm like, "Yep. Don't know what to tell you. It started when I was 18." (laughs) That's also just a little awkward.

THERAPIST: We should stop for now. I think we're still on for next week, and then the following week I think you're out.

CLIENT: Yeah.

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