TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

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[joined in progress]

THERAPIST: And then, but they're doing, they do software?

CLIENT: Uh, yeah. They do educational on-line learning for people like, in third-world countries and stuff. Teach Yourself (ph) Arabic, learning how to read.

THERAPIST: Oh?

CLIENT: You know, so it's that. So that's cool. I was excited about that possibility. Yeah, and then, you know, Irrational hasn't called and... I really expected they would, but they don't seem to have called anybody. So (inaudible) they have a limited deposition (ph) as well like, yeah we're going (inaudible)... I don't know.

THERAPIST: Where was that job?

CLIENT: Quincy.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay.

CLIENT: So...

THERAPIST: Yeah. Irration , what, is there anything else, anything else, uh, hanging out there? Other than the recruiter stuff. [00:00:55]

CLIENT: Yeah, other than the recruiter stuff, there is nothing else hanging out. I mean, I put a, I mean, I put in other applications and I haven't heard anything back from them in weeks, so it's like, there is...

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: ...nothing there. So... So, I'm going to keep looking (therapist affirms). The financial advisor ditched us, handed us off to one of his subordinate advisors. I'm like, "FUCK!" I'm like, I don't have a huge job right now, so not much probable clients, so he's busy, so he passed us off to one of us, you know...

THERAPIST: Oh, okay.

CLIENT: ...other people. So (inaudible), so we got a new job (inaudible) have you back, instead of like, (inaudible), you know. What the fuck, huh.

THERAPIST: Yeah!

CLIENT: So...

THERAPIST: Yeah, he just passed you out to these, give an explanation?

CLIENT: Well, he's got a lot of clients. He doesn't live out here anywhere; he lives in California. He's like, "Yeah, so I was trimming down my clients that I have on this coast and like..." He's only keeping like, the big spenders, clCharlesy. [00:01:56]

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah, yeah, right. Yeah, you keep those guys who spend more money. (client affirms) Yeah, right.

CLIENT: It's like, "Eh!" (sighs) (pause) (sighs) So... So it sucks, you know. Just feels weird to be ditched, for not being rich enough anymore. It kind of, it's kind of like saying like, "Yeah, you're probably not going to be rich again." You know, that sort of feeling, from him. You know, like, "Oh, no, it's not a bad failure. You're just done. You're just done."

THERAPIST: That, that was...

CLIENT: I don't know, man. Like, my life seemed to be going so well, and it feels like I just destroyed everything. You know? Consistently destroyed everything. Now I'm just a dude, 36 years old, in a career that I don't like, you know, and a career I can't get out of, either; I need to stay in. This is just my life now. You know? This is just my life. I don't know. [00:03:31]

THERAPIST: How long has it been now? I mean, how many months have you been out work?

CLIENT: October was when...

THERAPIST: Is that right?

CLIENT: ...I left, I think. Was it October? (pause) It's pretty close to a year.

THERAPIST: Yeah, that is, that can really take a toll, man.

CLIENT: Yeah. Totally. Nobody wants to work with me. I mean nobody's hired me.

THERAPIST: No one's hired, yeah, no one's hiring.

CLIENT: (sighs) So, I don't know. I've still got time. I'm not screwed yet.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah, no, and it didn't take, it was, it was a lot longer than the other times. Because the other times you'd be, you'd have found something like, what three, four months?

CLIENT: Someone would have called me (therapist affirms)... when I was just done. [00:04:35]

THERAPIST: Is it just, is it kind of just lean or like, is there...?

CLIENT: Yeah, it is. It is.

THERAPIST: What was it, King (ph)... how many people did King have?

CLIENT: Um... here, like 50, I think, the ones that have... but... King, it sucks to be King, I don't know. (pause) Sucks to be a lot of people, the market has changed so rapidly, the industry has changed so rapidly. A lot of people have a hard time adapting.

THERAPIST: What about, yeah, what have you noticed?

CLIENT: Well, gains/games (ph) seem to be smaller and smaller, buckets (ph) are larger and larger buckets. There is really very little middle ground, you know? You need to make an independent gain with a very small theme (ph) that makes it big. (therapist responds) Or you need to be a huge monolith that can risk $30 million on a game (therapist affirms), you know, but in an established genre, you know, sequel of something else. (pause) So that's where we find ourselves. [00:05:46]

THERAPIST: It is a different industry, then? Than when you started?

CLIENT: Yeah, (inaudible) you asking questions is still the same.

THERAPIST: What's that?

CLIENT: Asking questions is still the same. I mean, (inaudible) is still the same. (pause) Just need a chance to do it somewhere. (therapist responds) It's all I need (therapist affirms)... is a chance to do it somewhere. (pause) We'll see... we'll see. In the meantime, I don't know. Try to stay creative, try to monetize creative things. [00:06:45]

THERAPIST: (pause) Yeah, what?

CLIENT: (sighs) Well, I don't sleep; I stay up.

THERAPIST: Is that, did you stay up last night?

CLIENT: Yeah, not as late as usual, only up till 2:00 or 3:00. Like, I have this entire other life that exists around my time with Ginny (yawns), where it is like this fear (ph) bubble in every day, because I'm up for hours after she goes to bed, and I'm alone all day. So it's just this period of time where... people aren't around, you know. Just like...

THERAPIST: How do you find, yeah, you're alone all day and then she comes home and... [00:07:47]

CLIENT: I don't know; sometimes it's a little stressful. It's like, "Oh, now there is somebody here. I feel like I should interact with you," but like... You know, you're still in your decompression stage after work, so that's fine. But I'm then, not sure like, kind of, we started doing something, you know... we're going to eat dinner soon, probably. How's that going to happen?

THERAPIST: (affirms) What time does she usually get off work?

CLIENT: Um, it really depends, you know? I mean, some days she comes home at noon and works from home. (therapist affirms) You know? Some days, she's home at like, 4:00, others she gets home about 5:00 or 6:00, you know, so it all varies. She's in control of her schedule, for the most part, except that people don't die on schedule.

THERAPIST: So she might be called in or something? (client affirms) Or somebody... she gets called into work? [00:08:42]

CLIENT: Not (inaudible) (blocked). She had an older man grab both her breasts the other day. Pretty old and senile; he was also pretty deaf. See, if they lean down to his ear and really shout to get noise in, he kind of lured her in and went for the double grab. And she was like, "Man!" Old man... I'm like, "Yeah..."

THERAPIST: Probably last chance he'll have.

CLIENT: Yeah, I know, right?

THERAPIST: God, she has to put up with that!

CLIENT: Has to put up with all sorts of stuff.

THERAPIST: Wow!

CLIENT: She comes in and this older man is swearing in French. He's a Haitian, he's like, "I don't want this fucking white bitch in here!" And she's like, "Some white bitches speak French!" In French, because she speaks French.

THERAPIST: She (chuckles) said that?

CLIENT: Yeah. (chuckles) Changed his attitude a little.

THERAPIST: (chuckles) (inaudible) Boy, she can, yeah, yeah, she can stay in the room! [00:09:49]

CLIENT: Yeah, she can. That's my girl. Yeah, and I love her. She's amazing.

THERAPIST: But what about when she gets home. She's, you said she needs to decompress.

CLIENT: She needs to decompress. She's had a long day, you know? She usually needs a hug, but then also doesn't want to talk for a little bit, you know? So (yawns) it's like, okay. I've been alone for... hours and hours, since our (ph) night before and (therapist affirms) the entire day and... I'm going to be like, "Here is stuff that's happened! Here is stuff!" [00:10:21]

THERAPIST: Oh, you have?

CLIENT: And, so I just, I need to wait. (pause) So... Yeah.

THERAPIST: I imagine you being really patient with her.

CLIENT: Try to be.

THERAPIST: But it's being hard.

CLIENT: Try to be, yeah.

THERAPIST: But it's being hard, yeah.

CLIENT: Oh, sure. It gets very hard sometimes, when she... When it gets the worst, she doesn't talk and she puts on this mask of normalcy, but it's totally fucking irritating, because it's so obviously fake. And it's like, I don't even want to interact with her when she's like that (therapist responds), you know? (therapist affirms) Because she (inaudible) want interaction anyway, so it was like... you know, so I'm like, so you know like, it's like, "I'm here for you." She's like, "Oh, and I'm here for you." I'm like, "Jesus Christ! (therapist affirms) Don't just mirror everything I say! You know, just, if you're sad, go be sad. You're fine. Just, just be sad."

THERAPIST: I don't want the mask stuff, yeah. [00:11:25]

CLIENT: Yeah. She's got to be sad, and like, that's fine. You don't have to like, you know... kind of...

THERAPIST: Almost like she wants to continue to like... well, yeah, being "normal" or something and, but you can see, you know she's not really there that way. It's... (client affirms) She doesn't want to upset you or something like that... by being distracted or being sad or... yeah. Bringing her work home with her... (client affirms) And she must know that you're, you know, dying for interaction.

CLIENT: Yeah, she knows. But, you know, it was a challenge with this...

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah, yeah. [00:12:17]

CLIENT: So... yeah. And I look at Charles (sp) and his failed relationships. I mean, (inaudible) from his complacency and this resistance to change for anyone. (pause) This ability to create excuses for not doing anything like, around in his house, doing nothing, and not going places, you know.

Like, because maybe I really want to go do stuff, and he's like, "I don't have any money." It's like, we can do stuff that doesn't cost money, even though it still costs me gas. He's like, "I don't want you paying money for gas if I can't pay you money for gas." I'm like, "That's just bullshit, man! You just don't want to go anywhere." (client affirms) Like, that's the issue, and then you don't want to want to go anywhere. You don't want to change for, you know... [00:13:18]

It's like, "So, chillax; that's what happens. Relationships will change. We change who we are for other people. And if we don't, they leave." (pause) She became more comfortable sitting around, you know, at home, you know. Like, she still wanted to go do stuff. Like, "Let's go for a hike in the woods. Let's just, you know, go to Walden Pond and like, walk around, you know. Let's just... Let's just like, fucking do stuff." You know?

THERAPIST: He didn't want to go anywhere, though, yeah.

CLIENT: No, he wants to stay home and play with (inaudible) and pretend like he can't do anything, because he doesn't have money to go to the movies; definitely can't do anything. It's like, "Come on, man!" (sighs) You used to try to try. Have you tried trying?" "I read it in a book." "Are you sure it was a book? Are you sure it wasn't nothing?" So... (pause) (sighs) Smoking on my friend's vaporizer was fantastic. [00:14:36]

THERAPIST: On Tuesday?

CLIENT: Yeah. It's a great, great device. You're not getting it like shitty smoke or anything. It doesn't irritate my, you know, gastrointestinal tract or anything. It's not smoke, it's just vapor. (therapist responds) So that's nice. It's cleaner, too, more clear headed, you know.

THERAPIST: The high is?

CLIENT: Yeah, which is nice. It was real nice. (pause) Yeah, if I ever a card (ph), I'm going to get a vaporizer. (pause) Yeah. (sighs) He's a good candidate for it, strapped (ph), you know.

THERAPIST: Charles?

CLIENT: No, Barry (sp), sorry, the friend with the vaporizer? He's a good candidate for a green card, because he has a brain tumor.

THERAPIST: He has constant pain otherwise? (client affirms) (pause) Yeah, and so are you! [00:15:40]

CLIENT: Yeah, it's a different kind of pain, isn't it?

THERAPIST: Yeah, well. It's your brain...

CLIENT: I don't know, if somebody gave it to me, I'll... Totally, I would go to my doctor like, "Would you do this?" Like, "Yeah, I'm the only doctor who will." Seems like a very popular doctor. (therapist affirms) (pause) (sighs) He may have (ph) absolutely less than three months, maybe four.

THERAPIST: (pause) Well, yeah. I guess, you know, you talking about Ginny and you. You know, it's kind of like, among the other things that being out of work has meant, it's been like, this element of your relationship has been... yeah, it's been harder. When she gets home and she's, you know, worn out or something and you're really wanting, needing some interaction with her. [00:16:44]

CLIENT: Yeah, I was free (ph). And usually, when I'm working, she gets home before I do. You know, so she has space to herself. (yawns) So... I don't know. She might come for lunch today.

THERAPIST: And I get a feeling, too, that you try not to be a burden upon her.

CLIENT: Right. Yeah, of course.

THERAPIST: That you try not to put that on her in some way (client affirms), that you'd burn her out or something or...

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't want to, you know. So... Still, who knows? (pause) Just run around tired. Ah, it's the weed, then I'll be out of weed today, so... [00:17:43]

THERAPIST: (pause) It's the weed; yeah, what is...? The fatigue?

CLIENT: I'm tired, yeah. (therapist affirms) (pause) Barry was like, "Hey, I'm going to give you a little, like a little bit of a buzz, like a bowl full." I'm like, "Thanks." I'm like, "That's going to last me for an entire day and a half." Like, I'm extremely conservative with it. It was great, you know. (pause) So...

THERAPIST: But it eases this, all, I mean, certain things... What have you felt like in the last two, couple of days of (inaudible) around in it?

CLIENT: I love, I love weed. I love being high (therapist affirms), you know like, it's just better, in many cases, than the alternative. Which is, well, the alternative is very same-y (ph), you know? So like, so what's every day like? It's like every day! I do not feel as smart as I used to be. Like, it takes the edge off the mania some. I don't get faster, I get just creative bursts, you know. So... Just kind of... [00:19:05]

THERAPIST: And as you're (inaudible) make those kind of...

CLIENT: That's because, yeah, it's like that's with my other day, I was in that role, right? You know? And, whereas weed, it's like, "Oh, okay." Things are a little brighter, you know, feel more creative, can pop out more creative work (therapist affirms), so... Yeah.

THERAPIST: It's another, it's another kind of damage of the, of being out of work, too, is that you don't have that feedback of being at work and feeling like...

CLIENT: (inaudible) (therapist affirms) I'm sorry; can I use your bathroom? (therapist affirms)

[pause 00:19:44 to 00:23:07]

Want a drink of water there? (therapist affirms) (pause) Barry and Helen (sp) have this, the day I went to use their bathroom, go to wash my hands, there is no soap, just like, a bottle of Purel. I was like, I'm like... "This will do, this will do, but... I wish I had some soap!" Oh, well... Different people's houses.

They have these two puggles who are super crazy hyper, for the first like, 20 minutes that you're in their house. They're like, standing up and like, "Can I get at you, can I get at you?" So I just ignore them for 20 minutes, and they're like, "I get to you! It's you! You're a man and you smell like Hank, our best friend, Hank and..." After 20-30 minutes they get pretty insistent. You try to stand (inaudible), they get up onto you, you're like, "No, you can't get up on me!" (therapist responds) So I just do this thing, where I like, put one like, one finger's on back of their neck, and just like, "Stop it! Stop it!" And then they just, slowly there is like, they spin, turnaround, and sit down between like, my knees, one sitting on the (inaudible) (blocked). [00:24:15]

THERAPIST: Huh!

CLIENT: Boom! There you go! Like, that's all they really need is a gentle hand on the scruff of the neck and they were like... I'm a bigger dog!

THERAPIST: Alpha dog!

CLIENT: Yeah. So, just... just chill.

THERAPIST: Just chill out, yeah.

CLIENT: But it takes them 20 minutes to get to the point where they can do that. Because they're like, "It's you, it's you!" (therapist responds) But they're...

THERAPIST: But it kind of settles their excitement, or something like that.

CLIENT: Yeah, and like, the youngest one, is fucking stupid. It's amazing how dumb she is. I mean, my dog is not very smart, but he is much smarter than these two other puggles. He loves them! We drop him off there, he gets really excited whenever we drop him off, for like, to stay for a weekend or something when we go away, because he loves being with those guys. [00:25:05]

(pause) Reminds me of ((not com)). So, you know, every ((not com)), I go every year. Ginny is actually thinking of ditching out this year. She wants to know like, how I would feel about her ditching out. I'm having a difficult time with that, because I realize that a big part of what makes it possible for me to go on this five-hour car ride, to stay in this place for five days, is the fact that she comes with me. (therapist affirms) And I don't want to at all be like... "I don't know, come along! Spend vacation days on stuff that's not really a vacation for you," you know. So (sighs)... On the one hand, I feel like, "Well, you don't have to go. Totally, you don't have to go," and then try not to ditch on ((not com ing)). (therapist affirms) And I love ((not com ing)).

THERAPIST: Does she know about...you know, you need her to be with you? [00:26:12]

CLIENT: No, I haven't mentioned it, because I just realized it, and I don't want to bring it up, you know?

THERAPIST: Yeah, why?

CLIENT: Well, because it's just... because then she'll go, you know? Then she'll be like, "Oh, well, then I'll go!" (therapist affirms) And I'm like... like, but I don't want you to go and waste vacation days, if you're not going to enjoy yourself. Like, that's not what I want for you, you know? (therapist affirms) Despite the fact that I really like... seeing you there. (therapist affirms) Even though I see her for bits and pieces, right? We'll both go off and do our own thing, and she swims or reads...

THERAPIST: But her being there is just of immense importance, I mean... yeah.

CLIENT: Well, it makes it easier to drive five hours (therapist affirms), you know? It's more comfortable. I'm less afraid, most of the time. [00:27:12]

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause) And feel that if you told her, it would just be, she'd feel (snapping fingers), I mean...

CLIENT: Makes her feel obligated to go, and she always does stupid stuff like that. You know, like...

THERAPIST: What if she did? What if she felt obligated to do it?

CLIENT: She goes into uncomfortable situations, because she thinks she might make something easier for someone else (therapist responds), which always makes her a great hospice worker. But... in life, it's just really burdensome. It's like, "Great! Now, if I have any sort of need, you're going to drop everything and fill it, so I can't tell you when I have needs or else you'll drop everything and fill them, as stupid as that is." You know.

THERAPIST: Yeah. And largely because you feel like you don't want to put that on her, you don't want to make her do something that she feels obligated to do or this other thing. [00:28:21]

CLIENT: Right, exactly. And so we just (inaudible). (therapist affirms) Yeah, I (inaudible), I guess.

THERAPIST: (pause) Yeah, it puts you in a tricky bind then, because you really... because what do you do, then, with these, you either kind of... have to keep them to yourself, or if you tell her, then she feels thrown into this, "I have to make it right" kind of thing. (client affirms) (pause) Why doesn't she want to go?

CLIENT: Eh! She doesn't really play a lot of the games that we're playing or... there is a lot of drinking and loudness, and she's not really into that. It's not like a lot of the stuff that she does there is sort of geared to her, you know. (therapist affirms) So... So... (pause) Yeah, I don't understand that. (pause) I love ((not com ing)), actually, I love it. [00:29:46]

THERAPIST: Oh yeah. (pause) Where you going? Where, you know, where is your mind going here?

CLIENT: I don't know, man. I just love ((not com)). I love the idea of knowing where I'm going to sleep, and knowing what it's like. There is room just for me and Ginny, don't have to share with anybody else. There is no weirdness. You know, just...

THERAPIST: (pause) Yeah. Again, just to say, I mean... I don't think I know anybody in all my years that has been through as much trauma in a car as you have. (chuckles)

CLIENT: (chuckles) Yeah, it's probably true, right? (therapist affirms) I mean, you know... Lots of car accidents, and people just trying to hit me, and going off the road in the driver's seat, you know? (therapist affirms) I'm like, spending most of my life there. I spent most of my childhood in a car, when I was homeschooled. We would do errands, every day, we'd go do errands. And what did that mean? It means we got in the car, she'd bundle us in the car (my sister and my brother and I), and we would just go to the mall and to other stores... and sometimes go to the DMV. It's like, every day... [00:31:18]

THERAPIST: To the DMV?

CLIENT: Well, yeah, because she had to do something at the DMV or whatever, but I mean it was like, every day, we would spend the day driving around and going to places on errands. We'd stop at Burger King for lunch, and Burger King for breakfast, you know? So, for about three years, I ate mostly Burger King.

THERAPIST: Is that right?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: This would be, how many days of the week?

CLIENT: Five!

THERAPIST: Five days a week?

CLIENT: Five days a week! To the point where my brother was three, one day we didn't go on errands. He turned to me and he says, "Why aren't we in the car?" Every day of his life, every day of his life, we had been in the car. And it never occurred to me, until he asked me that question, that every day of his life was spent in the car... in a car seat, most of the day. [00:32:15]

THERAPIST: Basically, like his home.

CLIENT: Yeah! It's like, that's just what happens. Wake up, you get in the car (therapist affirms), and go places. At night, you come back home.

THERAPIST: Sort of "What the hell is going on? Why aren't we in the car?"

CLIENT: Why aren't we in the car? That's what life is. (therapist responds) Cars and malls, right?

THERAPIST: And what did you guys do at the malls?

CLIENT: Wander around, go to stores and look at things, and sometimes buy things with money we didn't have, you know, with checks she knew would bounce (therapist responds), you know. (pause) With checks she knew would bounce! (pause) It's insane, right? (therapist affirms) Write checks that she knew would bounce, but she'd write them anyway. Like, "Oh, well! That's going to bounce!" You know, just... it was just part of everything. It was just part of everything, it's just what happens, just what your day was like. You know, you just... [00:33:22]

THERAPIST: Yeah, no. I mean like, if some authorities had known this, they would have immediately... this would been stopped.

CLIENT: Really?

THERAPIST: Yeah, no. You can't do that.

CLIENT: Yeah, can't do what?

THERAPIST: You can't take your kids around all day and shop and not have them, have some sort of education going on.

CLIENT: Oh, that's true. Yeah, no, homeschooling was a joke. Yeah. There was no homeschooling. There was nothing. There was a few days where she tried to teach us about Native Americans, because that's what she thought was really the most important thing. We learned about Native Americans. And like, she'd rather go to a Laundromat. She'd be like, "All right, no math for you!" And so we never did math, you know. She never made us do anything that was hard. You know, even when we were in school, it was like, "Oh, I don't feel well." I wouldn't' go to school that day.

In third grade... was it fourth? Or was it fifth? May have been fifth. The principal called us all in, my mother and I, he was like, "Your kids have missed one-third of the school year." He was like, "They can't keep missing school." It's like, they've missed one-third of the school year! Just for sick days. You know, he was like, "This can't happen anymore." And so, in sixth grade, she pulled me out of school. (therapist responds) You know? [00:34:44]

THERAPIST: That's what happened, okay. What would she do on the sick days? Was she actually making you sick? Or the (inaudible)

CLIENT: I don't know. I mean, I'm just, I was stressed. I just had anxieties for as long as I've been alive. I was worried about what was going to happen in school that day, because I mean... Okay, so kindergarten was great until the teacher got pregnant and it was this fat woman every day, and I stopped talking. So they thought I was retarded. "We're going to hold you back, do kindergarten again." They had my parents in and said, "We believe your son is retarded and we need to review kindergarten again."

My father and my mother, "Well, there he goes! My son's retarded!" My father goes, "My son's not fucking retarded! Like, give him an IQ test." And they're like, "Okay, your son's a genius, we don't have a gifted program, so... you know, he can been enrolled, re-group (ph), which were me and like, two other kids, which I had then immediately assumed was because I was stupid, in first grade. I was like, "Oh, shit! Just me and two other kids in this class! Like, we must be the worst readers (therapist responds), you know, in the class." [00:35:47]

THERAPIST: Did you know what the other kids were reading out of (inaudible).

CLIENT: Yeah. It's like, but we were in first grade. We were reading, you know, first grade books. And it is reading (inaudible), there is like, no difficulty. And that's the thing I remember, is like, thinking like, how I must be so bad at reading, but (inaudible) I can just look at words and read them. (therapist affirms) I remember, I was asking for things to be read to me, because this is how things were often done. Comic books, my stepfather had (ph) comic books, when I was like seven, he'd read this to me; she said, "Read it yourself!" And I remember just looking at it and be like, "Oh. Yeah. I know what this says."

THERAPIST: Wow!

CLIENT: Just reading it. Like, "Oh, okay. No, I can read this." You know, and I remember that realization at seven like, "Oh, yeah! I can read! How about that?"

THERAPIST: Yeah. What I'm also struck by is that there wasn't like, some sort of presence that was telling you what you were, like, that was helping you understand your world. [00:36:39]

CLIENT: They didn't tell me I was smart. They didn't tell me I tested well. (therapist affirms) You know? And so I thought I was stupid. So in second grade, we probably went to four different schools for second grade.

There is this hippy con artist, convinced my mother to move out there, so we did. And he stole a bunch of our furniture, a bunch of other people's furniture. He started a thrift shop, and he took everything in the shop, and just skipped town, emptied out the entire store full of clothes and (inaudible) stuff and furniture. Just left. [00:37:40]

Yeah, so, and I was, so in my fourth school, and they were all at different points in math, you know? They were all doing different things. So it was very difficult. Then in fourth grade, we moved back to Hamstead, different school, The teacher, she was just mean, you know? She would like, yell at kids for being little babies. You know, make them cry and like, "You're crying? You're a big baby! Babies cry!" You know?

Like, you know, I'd play with my ears, you know, it's a nervous tick; I've always kind of done it. You know, like... so. And (therapist responds)... she would yell at me for that. She was like, "Look at the baby, playing with his ear!" And every so, I would miss, I would miss a lot of days. I'd be dragged into the school, kicking and screaming. Like, I did not want to go. (therapist responds) You know? [00:38:34]

Some days we'd have to go, other days they'd drag me in. I hated it. I would come in and cry, basically, every single day. And... hated it! And so one day, I missed the day where she taught us long division, you know. So I come in, and everyone is doing long division. I go up to her and like, "What is this? And how..." Like, a symbol I've never seen before. I'm like, "How do I do this?" She was like, "Figure it out yourself! Go do long division on your own! You've never seen this before! What is this? It's long division. That's what I've told you. Do the problems on the board."

THERAPIST: It was just numbers and a symbol.

CLIENT: It was just numbers and a symbol. I had no idea what they mean or how they relate to each other. So I didn't do long division, just, for years. I just didn't do it.

THERAPIST: Is that right? [00:39:26]

CLIENT: Yeah. I guess, at least (ph), I don't know how to do long division! And then, that's just like for years. Then in fifth grade, they taught short division. I was like, "This is easy. Like, why don't we just always do it this way?" It's like, this is, like, "This is really simple! Like, Oh, I see now!" Then it wasn't until high school, I'm like, "Oh, fuck! Like..." Because it was like, addition and multiplication were always so easy for me, but subtraction and division were really hard. So one day, I was like, "Oh, they're just backwards." I'm like... subtraction is just multiplication in reverse, division is just multiplication (corrects) subtraction is addition in reverse, same thing with division and multiplication. I'm like, "Oh! These are just opposites!" (therapist affirms) You know? So I'm like, "Oh, now this is actually pretty easy!"

The same thing with Algebra in high school. Struggled and struggled with Algebra. It was like, this is just so, it's x's and y's and (inaudible) abstract and there are no why for anything. You just do it over and over again; it's like, "Here is the way to do this problem. Here is 30 of this problem. Do this problem 30 times." It's 30 different versions of the same problem. Like, I'd lose focus halfway through this, I was so fucking bored. And in long form algebra, if you lose focus, you miss a variable, you know, you're screwed. (therapist affirms) So I was like, "Oh, I got (inaudible) (blocked)."

THERAPIST: All it takes is one little thing. [00:40:49]

CLIENT: Yeah, and... you know, it was awful. (therapist responds) You know, and it wasn't until senior year in Physics, I'm sitting next to an exchange student. I'm totally lost and like, I memorized the formulas and they're all really cool and everything. All this doesn't make sense, but I was like, "Fuck! I have to do fucking math!" (sneezes, excuses) Sitting next to my friend from Africa, and I look at his paper, and he's fucking changes something. I'm like,

"What did you do?"

He was like, "I just moved this to the other side of the equation."

I'm like, "Wait; what do you mean, you moved it to the other side of the equation?"

"Well, I just reversed it and put it over here, so it was like plus x here, now it's minus x over here. It was like, and that's just how we... (therapist affirms) simplify. "

And I was like, "Oh!"

And suddenly algebra made sense (therapist affirms), as soon as you put the real variables in there, I was like, "Oh! Oh, really?" And then, boom! Algebra was fucking simple. I was like... (therapist affirms) why couldn't (inaudible) if someone give me an application day one? (therapist affirms) You know? [00:41:57]

THERAPIST: No, that's right. In a way, you're talking about your entire history was like, filled with these experiences. It's a bit how like Kevin needed you to kind of come in and tell him, "Hey this is how it's done, you get out of this..."

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. "This is real; do this."

THERAPIST: That's right.

CLIENT: "This is what needs to be done; you have the resources; go do that."

THERAPIST: And that's precisely what wasn't happening for (client affirms) all those years.

CLIENT: Well, he said that was some of his dad. He was like, "You know, my dad's... more like a friend. We watch movies together. He's not the kind of guy to go do this thing or go get your license." I'm like, "Okay. Go get your license." (laughs) You know? It's like, "Great. Do you need someone in authority to tell you what to do, because you're unsure? Fine. Easy."

THERAPIST: That's right.

CLIENT: "I can do that." And then you just did those things, because they're not hard and you're a smart boy. [00:42:52]

THERAPIST: Yeah, but you need somebody in that function just to...

CLIENT: Yeah, to show you the application and give you some assurance...

THERAPIST: That's right.

CLIENT: ...(inaudible) wandering blindly ahead, which I think makes sense. It's very difficult to trust anything, on account of my mother, my entire life (therapist affirms), you know. What are the reasons for that? Why is that the way it is? What is she going to make up that fits her particular cosmology in the moment? You know.

THERAPIST: Yeah, she wasn't just leading you blindly ahead. She was leading you psychotically ahead.

CLIENT: Yeah. And just recognizing that, so really, I'm just thinking like, "Okay, everything she says is..." And even knowing it, I still... Yeah, I saw a white moth the other day and (inaudible) "Oh! Shit! White moth!" And I'm like, "Right. White moths are not poisonous."

THERAPIST: (chuckles) Right!

CLIENT: They're going to suddenly kill you. White moths are poisonous! Where does that even come from? [00:43:47]

THERAPIST: No. I used to work at a place that would see kids that were in, you know... taken, often times, they were taken, or they left home and they're in the Department of Child and Family Services. You know, they had stories similar to this. Some not even close to as crazy as this, that you went through. (client affirms) But that was true.

CLIENT: It's so funny, so funny I wasn't taken away.

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah. Or something would have happened.

CLIENT: Someone would have intervened.

THERAPIST: That, yeah, that's the way to put it. Something would have, she would have had to have some sort of treat , I mean, I don't know.

CLIENT: Something about it.

THERAPIST: But she... it's also sounding like she was somehow clever enough in some way...

CLIENT: Oh, yeah! She just evades it all. She can wear the mask of normalcy for a very long time. And even after sometime, people were like, "Ah, okay. She's definitely a little weird." But that's it! [00:44:46]

THERAPIST: Just weird.

CLIENT: That's like, "Oh, she's a little weird." It's like, "No, you don't see the depth of what's going on."

THERAPIST: Well, people don't want to look.

CLIENT: Well, no, of course not. An awful lot of people don't expect to see it very often, you know? (therapist affirms) That's true of everyone, sadly, even myself, so... But I have to look for those things.

THERAPIST: No, if, if I was a DCF worker, I heard of one-one-thousandth of what you said...

CLIENT: (chuckles) Really?

THERAPIST: ...literally!

CLIENT: (laughs) That's so funny to me! That's so funny to me, because it, we lived in perpetual fear of someone taking us away. That's what she'd always tell us. Like, "You can't tell people anything, (therapist affirms) because they'll take you away, you know? They'll think I'm sexually abusing you."

THERAPIST: Oh my! That's what she'd say!

CLIENT: You know, "Or they'll think I'm beating you," and in fact, she was hitting me (therapist affirms), you know? And...

THERAPIST: She'd say sexual, and she'd hit... (inaudible) (blocked) [00:45:43]

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean, yeah, you know. And when she wanted to divorce James (sp), she keeps on sexually abusing Kevin. We're like, "Whoa! That's something new (ph)!" We're just like, "Did he ever sexually abused you guys?" We're like (emphatically), "No! No! What?"

Essentially (ph), she told my sister and I both that our father sexually abused us. And for years, we were like, "Oh, yeah, my father sexually abused us." Because it would have been like, "Wait a minute! No, that never happened! Like, I have no memories of that. There is no feeling of distrust with him," although then, she's told me that he's really scary, he might hit me at any moment, which he never did. He never even came close! He never really even raised his voice to us. He'd yell at her, because she was insane, but he never yelled at us (therapist affirms), even though Tourette's (ph) like, Tourette's was very clearly never directed at us. It was just a thing that was a part of him, you know. [00:46:41]

Bridget was the other day, she was like, she's still, she's like, "I'm still angry sometimes, that he just wasn't around. I mean, he ditched us." I'm like, "Do you realize that Mom threatened to put him in jail?" (therapist responds) She didn't know this. I was like, "Mom threatened to put him in jail when I was about six, because he couldn't pay child support. And she was like, 'I'll have you arrested.' So he skipped, and ran away, because he had been in jail, and he didn't want to go back to jail (therapist affirms). You know, he has (inaudible) staying with us anyway, and she was like, 'Oh, if you stick around, you'll go to jail.'" What she wanted was him away from us, and that's what she got, you know.

THERAPIST: And even went as far as to say he had sexually abused you?

CLIENT: Yeah! You know? If you tell us... So, but anyway, and that went on when my mom was living with James again, every now and then like, still, because he still drives her around and gets her money and... effectively is still married to her, even though she's been married three times since him. And (sighs)... I'm like, "What are you doing with James? Like, is this the man who raped your son or isn't he?" Because Kevin has no memories of this either. [00:47:55]

THERAPIST: (under breath) Because James is Kevin's... I got it.

CLIENT: Right, so what's... "So did he, did he rape your son or didn't he? And if he did, why do you have anything to do with him? Right? And if he didn't, well why did you say he did?" Well, for obvious reasons, why you said he did, because he could just leave (therapist affirms). You could have a divorce immediately.

THERAPIST: Yeah, right. That's like the trump card. (client affirms) Yeah.

CLIENT: Just like, "My three-year old son said the following things, you know? So clearly he was sexually abused, and..." It's like, "Really? Did that really happen?" Probably not. (pause) Probably not. [00:48:46]

THERAPIST: But there is a lot of (sighs), I mean, you know, it's just a lot of... I'm just thinking to tie that into the whole driving and wanting a place to feel safe when you go somewhere to not (inaudible) and then to have some sort of...I think... of course you did. You want to have safety, you want to have a, some sort of feeling that... protection and, that you just didn't have. It was kind of like, "Oh no..."

CLIENT: Insane.

THERAPIST: Insane.

CLIENT: (inaudible)

THERAPIST: And of course, you want... it's this complicated thing for you to ask for this stuff from Ginny.

CLIENT: Yeah. I'm trying to figure out what I'll do without it. [00:49:39]

THERAPIST: It's hard, it's... yeah. And, you know, sometimes you need it for a while. Sometimes, you just need it.

CLIENT: Yeah, it's not about her (ph), though.

THERAPIST: That's the dilemma, though, isn't it? But it's also completely fair that you want her there.

CLIENT: Uh, sure, sure. That's a rational statement, is just doesn't really help the situation, though.

THERAPIST: No, no, no, no, but that's the complexity of that situation. You care for her, you don't want her to feel burdened, you know that she goes through a lot. That doesn't make what you feel any less real or important.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) Therein lies the rub, as it were. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Um, so listen, next week, because I'm not working on Monday, I don't have anything; I don't have a second meeting for us right now. I can certainly, if you want, I can let you know. [00:50:39]

CLIENT: Uh, yeah, let me know and we'll see if it (inaudible). Let's go with Thursday for now. We'll see what we do, then I'll see if we can be regular after that.

THERAPIST: I'll know by next Thursday if Monday at noon works as a regular time. I'm pretty sure it will.

CLIENT: Okay, great.

THERAPIST: Okay!

END TRANSCRIPT