TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

[inaudible Conversation]

CLIENT: That's all that matters.

THERAPIST: (inaudible 00:08)

CLIENT: [Jim Jam Jamboree] (ph).

THERAPIST: (inaudible 00:14)

CLIENT: Yeah. Hot enough for you? That's what people were saying (inaudible 00:21) don't know just start up a conversation. But not nearly, so I don't know say that bullshit. Because it is actually now (ph) going to be hot enough for me, which is nice.

THERAPIST: It is.

CLIENT: Yeah. I will finally be warm, which will be nice.

THERAPIST: You like it -

CLIENT: I need it to be, like, 80 or higher to actually be like, "Ah, this is nice."

THERAPIST: Oh, is that right?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. I lived in New Mexico for two months when I was kid. I was like, "This is amazing." I was like, you know, (crosstalk 00:53) body fat until after college too.

THERAPIST: Yeah (crosstalk 00:57).

CLIENT: I was accustomed to the cold. Or to being cold, you know. But still, I've got 45 more pounds [on me than I did in] (ph) college.

THERAPIST: What do you weigh now?

CLIENT: 160.

THERAPIST: 160.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And you're how tall?

CLIENT: Five-eight, three quarters.

THERAPIST: Five-nine.

CLIENT: Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. Probably if I stand up straight, you know, get a good pelvic tilt. Don't slump my shoulders. Yeah, and (ph) I went in for my back because I was so tight and fucked up. I (inaudible 01:34) bad anterior pelvic tilt, which really brings your height down. The nurse is like, "How tall are you?" (inaudible 01:40) I'm five-nine." And she's like, "No, you're five-eight." I'm like, "What?" She's like, "Yeah, you're five-eight." And I'm like, that's how bad my posture's been, why (ph) my back is so fucked up. I'm like, that's sucks.

THERAPIST: Took an inch off.

CLIENT: I lost an inch [from that] (ph). Yeah.

THERAPIST: So five-nine, 160. Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: I'm well within my BMI.

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah.

CLIENT: I feel fat. So I had this girlfriend in high school, Keisha Donaldson (sp?), who was anorexic. She didn't really lose much weight because of it, which is interesting, you know. (inaudible 02:29), like, the reason she had become anorexic was for attention, you know. And she would commit suicide for attention, all the time, you know. Not all the time, but frequently. Frequently enough that, like, it was just a thing (inaudible 02:48). It was like, "Keisha tried to kill herself again." And as her boyfriend, this was really upsetting, you know. (inaudible 02:58)

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah. She did it while you two were together?

CLIENT: Oh, yeah, a couple times. A couple times. One time, after I kissed and felt up on another girl over the summer, and another time after I broke up with her. (Sighs)

THERAPIST: Is that right?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: They were both in response to -

CLIENT: Both in response. Well, also, those weren't the only times (inaudible 03:22). She did it in response to things. People would do things and she'd try to kill herself. She'd end up in the hospital and, like, you know. And (pause) I just remember because I broke up with her. I think I may have told you, like, when I was 17 or so, I was staying with my uncle. And she came over to visit. My uncle was going to be gone all day. And so we were going to, like, just take off our clothes and be teenagers together. (inaudible 04:02) and it was great. [And I was great] (ph). And I remember, very clearly, she was lying on her back and I was lying just above her, you know, positioned above her. Both naked. A (ph) raging hard-on.

And I'm just like, "I think I want to have sex with you," because we hadn't done that yet, you know. And she looked in my eyes with such intensity, and she's like, "Make love to me," in this very serious voice. And the look in her eyes was so intense that I immediately said no. Like, "We're not going to do this." Incredibly strange, I think, for a 17-year-old boy not to have sex when he's seconds away from having sex. But it was the responsibility, I felt, come (ph) from that. I knew. I was like, "I'm not ready for this responsibility. Like, this is forever," you know. Like, this intensity I cannot reciprocate. And I knew that. So I did not.

THERAPIST: It felt like it was forever. She was saying (inaudible 05:07).

CLIENT: Well, there was this real intensity, yeah. She was serious. She was into this. There was a level of commitment I hadn't realized was possible, you know.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay.

CLIENT: It's like that horrible moment you (inaudible 05:19) and you realize the girl you're dating is way more into you than you are into her, you know. No pun intended. But, yeah. And yeah, so shortly after that, I broke up with her. I was like, "This is not good," you know. "I shouldn't be in this situation," you know. And she keeps trying to kill herself. And she's (inaudible 05:50) in this other guy, Harry, and she's going to move into his house, you know, because her parents are whacky, you know. And so, she does, about right around the time she tries to kill herself, you know. And I'm devastated, again (ph), you know. And so I'm calling her in the hospital to see if she's okay. I'm on the verge of tears, just not crying. [I'm just] (ph) asking her [so I'm like] (ph), "Is this my fault?" And with such a vindictive tone, she's like, "Yes." And I immediately absolved myself of all guilt. The tone was so obviously attempting to hurt me, but I was like, "Oh, wait. No, this is not my fault. She did this in response to something. She did this intentionally to create a response." And so, once I understood that's what was happening, I was like, "Oh, then it's not my fault. She did this."

THERAPIST: I see, yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: So (inaudible 06:56) on my 18th birthday to tell me she was having sex with Harry (inaudible 07:02) she moved into the house with. And...

THERAPIST: Happy birthday.

CLIENT: Yeah. I remember just being like, "Good for you. I mean, great. Good."

THERAPIST: To her?

CLIENT: Yeah. I'm like, you know, whatever. I mean, you're good. I'm glad that you're having sex with Harry, if that's what you want to do.

THERAPIST: But what, it wasn't it didn't affect you.

CLIENT: It didn't. I wasn't like, "Oh, man. Oh, no," you know. It (ph) wasn't a big deal. But she called me to hurt me with that, I mean, clearly. And obviously, called me on my birthday for a reason, you know. And I'm like, whatever, you know. Kids today.

THERAPIST: Hurting you like, she felt like she had [been hurt] (ph).

CLIENT: Right, you know. And she was friends with my sister for a little while. My sister was there one of the times that I broke up with Keisha, you know. I think the last time. No (ph). I did it over the phone because that's, you know, what people did in those days, you know. Oh, I was 17. What do you want, you know? And it wasn't easy to go see her. It's two hours. It's two hours' drive. So [when I was going to go to] (ph) her house for two hours, you know, I'd be like, "Blah blah blah, I'm breaking up with you," trek (ph) two hours back, you know. It wasn't going to happen. Didn't have my driver's license then anyway. Didn't get that till I was 18, so...

THERAPIST: (inaudible 08:34)

CLIENT: Sorry.

THERAPIST: No, that's all right. But I do have to turn on the airport (ph) (inaudible 08:45) airplane on. There we go.

CLIENT: Cool. (inaudible 08:50)

THERAPIST: Yeah. If I get, like, a text message or a phone call, it will (inaudible 08:58).

CLIENT: Yeah (inaudible 09:00) very useful to you.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Yeah, so (pause). Yeah, so there I was.

THERAPIST: So you do it over the phone, and your sister is there?

CLIENT: Yeah (inaudible 09:17) she's hanging out with my sister. My sister's (inaudible 09:20) (yawns) or Middletown. One of those places. I don't fucking know. I don't even care, you know. So...

THERAPIST: Did your sister have anything to say about it?

CLIENT: I don't know. I wasn't really (ph) talking to her then (ph).

THERAPIST: Oh, you were (ph)?

CLIENT: No. Didn't much care for her, you know.

THERAPIST: I didn't realize that. What was the -

CLIENT: I just didn't have like, she was just this extension of my mother, you know. And so I just lumped her in, you know. And there were moments where I was, like, the protective older brother, but also (ph) because I knew that's what I was supposed to do. You know, that was the role I was intended to play by television. And so, television had been raising me for a good portion of my life. That's where I took the cue from, you know.

It wasn't till years later, it wasn't till after her wedding and after her children were born that I actually it's when Eva (sp?) was two, is when I actually wanted to have a relationship with her. And I was like, "Oh, I'm going to go see my niece," you know. Uncle Tim was (inaudible 10:28) went over there to see Eva (sp?). And Eva (sp?) was just amazing, you know. And then my sister was amazing. And I was like, "Oh, wow." I'm like, "How long have you been amazing?"

THERAPIST: Is that right?

CLIENT: You know, like and it appeared to me that maybe always. Maybe always, you know. And she suffered even worse than I did in so many ways. Our (ph) mother practically (ph) hated her, you know. She hated me (inaudible 10:53) because I was a man, but then she wanted to tell me all her sexual secrets because I was a man, you know.

THERAPIST: She wanted to tell you all her -

CLIENT: Oh (inaudible 11:02) what was going on with her and James sexually.

THERAPIST: Is that right?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. And...

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: I'm (ph) getting a lot of details wrong, you know, when (ph) she's explaining to me how sex worked, you know, frequently.

THERAPIST: How old were you when [she would do this] (ph)?

CLIENT: I think (pause) I was probably 11 or 12 when I started hearing this stuff from her. Tim and I both walked in on her when she was in sex mode with James. But she kind of tricked us into doing it, you know.

THERAPIST: She wanted you to see?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. She was like (inaudible 11:43). She was like, "Oh, I need some toilet paper from downstairs." (inaudible 11:48) And I'm like, "Oh, okay." And I come upstairs and open the door, she's naked on the bed, and he's naked on the bed with her sheet up to his chin. And, you know, and she's like, "Oh, you weren't supposed to come in." I'm like, "Well, (pause) why wouldn't I come in?"

THERAPIST: Exactly.

CLIENT: To your bedroom.

THERAPIST: Right. Of course you would.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: She just called you up there.

CLIENT: Yeah. (inaudible 12:12) very weird. And (inaudible 12:17) she took me in the shower with her when I was eight or nine.

THERAPIST: She did -

CLIENT: Yeah, at the temple. Because we were going to the temple. And she was like, "I have to take a shower." And I was like eight or nine. I was like, "Nah, I don't want to." (inaudible 12:31) So she was wearing her temple garment (inaudible 12:34) thin mesh, you know, t-shirt and, you know, boxer shorts essentially. And sort of picks me up and she's me in the shower and she's, like, holding me under the water and everything and singing something, I think, or laughing. Chanting. I remember just being like, "I hate this."

THERAPIST: You hated [it too] (ph).

CLIENT: I hate this. So, yeah. So...

THERAPIST: She was very intimate with she shared a lot of intimate details.

CLIENT: Yeah. Oh, certainly. Certainly. I was like, "This is not good." Because she got things wrong all the time. I remember when I was five, my sister was three, and she was putting us in the bath together. I look at my sister. I'm like, "She doesn't have a penis." I'm like, "What's that?" And she's like, "Oh, that's a clitoris." Now, for years, I'm like, "Oh, a vagina is a clitoris. That's what that is," which I spelled in my head. As a five-year-old boy, I spelled in my head q-u-a-t-o-r-i-s.

THERAPIST: Yeah, quatoris.

CLIENT: Yeah, you know. And it struck me, I was spelling things in my head when I was five. I didn't realize I could read, but I could spell things in my head.

THERAPIST: (inaudible 13:58)

CLIENT: Yeah. (inaudible 14:01), you know. And it took me years to realize she said, you know, clitoris. But she was referring to the entire business as clitoris. And she told me that when I was older and I was having sex with a woman, and she, like, asked me, "Honey, did you gum yet? Did you gum?" And I'm like, first off, no woman asks you that question. That's not a thing you have to be like, "Oh, did that happen?" No, no. Clearly, clearly, that happened, you know. It's quite detectable.

THERAPIST: Gum (ph).

CLIENT: Yeah. So [it was very strange] (ph). And when I was four I started masturbating when I was four. Just, like, (inaudible 14:56) against the ground, you know. And I was like, "Oh, this is cool." Like, you know, one day my mom catches me doing it. She's like, "What are you doing?" I'm like, "Oh, I'm doing my penis exercises." You know, I was like, "Oh, this is an exercise I'm doing." And she's like, "Well, you shouldn't do that because someday you'll do your penis exercises with your wife." And I had this image of my wife and I, of me and a naked woman, lying side-by-side on the ground.

THERAPIST: Rubbing on the ground.

CLIENT: Yeah, facedown. I'm like, why would we do that? I'm like, that doesn't make any sense, you know. But so, for years, that's how I did it. And...

THERAPIST: On the ground.

CLIENT: Yeah. It wasn't till I was 12 and a friend of mine was like, "No, you're supposed to get an erection." Because, you know, as a kid (inaudible 15:42) if I got an erection, that was a problem. It's like, "Oh (inaudible 15:45) do anything," you know. You know, and (laughter) I remember when I was 12, and I'm like, "Oh, that's how that's supposed to go. Oh, that's interesting," you know.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: But, you know, for years, she'd be like, "Are you still doing your penis exercises?" I'm like, "Oh, no." And she's like, "Good, because you shouldn't do that, because that's [second only to murder] (ph)," you know. This is Mormon town. Second only to murder. There's almost nothing worse. It's better that you rape someone than touch yourself. It's less evil. I mean, think about that. Think about the world -

THERAPIST: Rape. Assault.

CLIENT: Yeah. It's just better to do any of those things, other than touch yourself, you know. Rape a child.

THERAPIST: (inaudible 16:35)

CLIENT: Yeah, exactly. Before you touch yourself, make sure you do any (inaudible 16:38). Don't kill anyone, because that's the worse, but -

THERAPIST: (inaudible 16:43)

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. So, clearly, that was all fucked, you know.

THERAPIST: Well, yeah, I guess it has a whole 'nother level of meaning to the whole what was her name, that looked at you so serious?

CLIENT: Keisha.

THERAPIST: Keisha sort of saying, you know, "I want -" What did she say?

CLIENT: Make love to me.

THERAPIST: Make love to me.

CLIENT: Make love to me, yeah (ph). That was so serious. Yeah (inaudible 17:23) be like, "Oh, wait. No. That's far too serious." (inaudible 17:31) period of time when I still thought that I should wait to have sex when I got married. That didn't last past my first semester in college. It didn't last past my first opportunity outside of high school to have sex, you know. [I remember] (ph) dating Sandra Wells. That's back when I was the only freshman (inaudible 17:50). I was getting passed already by the older women. And it was great. It was fantastic. I'm like, "This is amazing. Like, I'm hooking up with all these girls and, like, doing stuff and straight fun."

And then one of the few times in my life, at that point, I realized Sandra was flirting with me. We were in [Roger Fulton]' (sp?) room, and Star Trek was on TV, and she's like, "Oh, I like Star Trek. Star Trek's pretty good." She's like, "But, you know -" she's like, "Whatever, I'm just going to go hang out in my room right now. You know, just me. It's (ph) kind of lonely." I'm like, "Oh, okay. Great, see you later." And she's like, "Okay," as she goes. And, like, five minutes later, I'm like, "Oh. Oh, okay." (inaudible 18:30) Knock, knock, knock. And she's like, "Hey." She's like, "I didn't know if you were going to come down here." I was like, "Yeah, no. It took me a bit, but I figured it out." And so we started hooking up and that (ph) was great. And it was after a couple days of that that Betty Hummels (sp?) came by, knocking on our door. She's like, "Oh, hey. I see (inaudible 18:46). How's it going?" I was like, "Oh, I'm sticking around here (inaudible 18:49). Okay, I'll see you later." And Sandra's like, "Oh, god. Like, was it her turn with you?" you know. And I'm like, you know, I mean, "I'm here with you. That's what's important right now."

And she found out I was a virgin, like, day one. She's like, "Oh, god." I'm like, "What?" She was like, "You can't have sex with virgins." I'm like, "Well, I was going to wait until I was married." She's like, "Ugh, okay. That's fine." And, you know, we hook up a couple more times. I'm like, "You know what, I (ph) changed my mind. Like, I think we should have sex." And she's like, "I don't know, because you're a virgin. (inaudible 19:23) get married." I said, "Yeah, I thought about it. Then I realized, that's stupid," you know? What matters is love, you know. What matters is a connection. And, you know, I was like, "So that's what's actually important." And she's like, "Oh, wow." (inaudible 19:41) I remember being, like, right before we actually decided to do it, she looks me deep in the eyes and she's like, "Listen." She's like, "You will always remember me." [She said] (ph), "This is significant," you know. She said, "This is the first person you're having sex with." She's like, "This is a significant event." And she's like, "Before you do this, you have to consider, you're always going to remember me and you will never be able to forget me." [I remember looking in her eyes] (ph) so super smooth, like, "I never want to forget you," you know. Boom (ph). Done.

But, yeah, and then we had sex. And it was great. And I was like, "This is amazing. Like, this is what it's all about." And I remember getting up and, like, afterward, going, "Yeah." She's like, "Yeah." She's like, "Yeah." I'm like, "Yeah, I feel good." She's like, "Yeah." I said, "I'm like (ph) a man now." I look in the mirror. I'm like, "That's a man looking back at me." (Laughter) And she's laughing and laughing. I'm like, "I'm so fucking hungry right now." And she made this, like, tray of muffins or cupcakes. She made a tray of cupcakes in her toaster oven. I just ate them. I ate six cupcakes. Like, ah, yeah. I just chowed them down. I was so hungry. And yeah (inaudible 20:54) like, "That was great," you know.

THERAPIST: It was like your body came alive [or something] (ph).

CLIENT: Yeah. I was like, "This is amazing." It changed my world. It changed my entire world. And I was like, "I just want to do this all the time. Like, this is what we should be doing." And so we had a lot of sex. [I wouldn't leave] (ph). Then I was with her all the time. You know, I was, like, really clingy and really needy. The virgin fling, you know, is what the phenomenon you may have heard of, you know. So, like, someone has sex with someone for the first time, it's like, "Oh, now you're the most important person in my world," you know.

And eventually, she was like, "I need you to leave." She was like, "I need you to go home," you know. It was after a couple months. And I was heartbroken. She broke up with me, and I was heartbroken. And it destroyed me. Absolutely destroyed me. Didn't know what to do, you know. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Broke your heart.

CLIENT: Yeah. She totally did. She was the first big love, you know.

THERAPIST: Yeah, there's something about that. Like, you were on the opposite side of it with Keisha.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You knew, like, what it means to really get -

CLIENT: Well, that's true. It's a good point, actually. Yeah, I was on the opposite side of that. It was incredibly serious.

THERAPIST: You knew how serious [it was to her] (ph).

CLIENT: The (ph) responsibility that she was (ph), like, kind of wary of as well. But at the same time, you know, we were adults, you know. And so, like, you can't just put off having sex (inaudible 22:27). You know, someone has to be your first eventually.

THERAPIST: Yeah, and something about you and sort of seeing it as [you did] (ph) with Keisha, and then you feeling it in your own way, a kind of real attachment or really deep, deep attachment to that person that Keisha was going to have to you for the rest of her life. I mean, (laughter) possibly -

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Like you said, forever. It was going to be forever.

CLIENT: So later that year, I hooked up with Felicity Belton. Felicity Belton was notorious for liking to have sex with people and for having sex with lots of people. And (inaudible 23:05) we were flirting. She'd been in college five years at that point, so she was 22. So we were all, like, "Oh, we're 18 and 19, and she was 22," you know. It's an older woman.

THERAPIST: (inaudible 23:18)

CLIENT: (inaudible 23:19) she had a lot of sex, and she was very open about how much sex she had. And I remember (pause) yeah, I remember the cast party, because cast parties were amazing, you know. Let's all get drunk and high and fuck each other, you know. Or, like, just, you know, group makeout sessions or whatever. We'd all pile into one bed and just, like you'd fall onto the bed, and you'd kind of get passed around the bed. You'd come off the bed at the other end. That was great, you know.

THERAPIST: This passed around thing (inaudible 23:52)

CLIENT: Yeah. Sex was a very, you know, open thing.

THERAPIST: Casual and -

CLIENT: Yeah, very casual. And we connected. We were theater majors, so we could do passion in seconds, you know. It was what we trained to do, was form immediate connections, you know. And so, you know but I remember being extremely drunk, drinking, like, half a bottle of Southern Comfort, you know, with a buddy of mine and taking shots of [Gold Slider] (ph). You know, just being fucking ridiculously drunk. For a 115-pound boy, you know, drinking half a bottle of Southern Comfort and a bunch of shots of [Gold Slider] (ph)was trash. It was absolutely trash. And I remember going up to her, being like, "Hey, you know, we should have sex. And (inaudible 24:40) I'm not very good yet, but, like, you're really experienced. You could, like, tell me what I'm doing wrong," you know. And she laughed, and she left. She's like, "Come back, talk to me again when you're sober." I'm like, "Okay, okay." So I stumble away.

Like, half an hour later, I walk up. I'm like, "Felicity, I'm sober now. You know, we should talk about this." She's like, "You're not sober." I started just laughing because I'm still totally trashed. I'm like, "You're right." Anyways, not till later in the spring, after I broke up with Sandra. Because I had this conversation with her, I think, possibly before Sandra even. No, that wasn't before Sandra.

THERAPIST: The night you were drinking.

CLIENT: Yeah. And so then after Sandra, we had the Vax (ph), which was a virtual memory system. It was before IM. (inaudible 25:28) Vax terminals in every room you could do word processing on.

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah, okay.

CLIENT: And you could also chat with other users. And so, you know, late at night, you find yourself either surfing the net with a text browser, you know, text-only browser. Because Netscape was amazing, and it was only in the computer science lab on the Macs. And they had pictures on there. It took, like, ten minutes to load a picture but, like, it was there. You could see it, a picture over the interweb. (inaudible 26:00) But, you know, and then you'd see which of your friends were on because you pull up the user list and you scan through everyone who was online till you saw, "Ah, Belton," you know.

And so, I'm like, "Hey, what's up?" She's like, "Oh, you know. Not much. Blah blah blah." I'm like, "Look, it's, like, 2:00 am." She's like, "Yeah, I know." I'm like, "We should totally hook up." She's like, "Really?" I'm like, "Yeah. We should do this," you know. It's like, "I'm single. You're single. We should do this." She's like, "I'm walking to (inaudible 26:35) to get a can of beef stew." She's like, "If you meet me on the way, you can come home with me." I'm like, "Great." So I go on down (inaudible 26:48) back to her room. But we actually didn't have sex at all. She was like, "No, we're going to fool around and stuff." And she's like, "You don't want to have sex with me (ph)."

THERAPIST: What was the "ah"?

CLIENT: Herpes, apparently. Herpes. So she wasn't, you know, going to be like, "Let's have sex. I'm having a herpes outbreak," you know. No, it was later the same year, I got a call from Orlando (inaudible 27:17), which is a few dorms away for upperclassmen. And he called my phone. He's like, "(inaudible 27:22) really need to talk to you right now. It's really important." I'm like, "Oh, shit." I'm like, "Betty, sorry. Like, you're going to have to go home. Orlando needs me." So she's like, "Oh, okay. No problem." Because we had [just been fooling around] (ph). (inaudible 27:30) Walked down to the (inaudible 27:34) and he's waiting to let me in. I'm like, "Orlando, what's wrong?" He's like, "There's nothing wrong. It was important." I'm like, "Well, what's so important?" He's like, "Well, one, we're waiting for pizza." I'm like, "Okay." He's like, "And two, Felicity Belton is upstairs naked in my room and she wants to have a three-way." I'm like, "Oh, sweet. Yeah, no problem."

So I was kind of making out with her. And I actually went down on her. And I was thinking the fact that she had herpes, you know. But, you know, she wasn't having an outbreak and I didn't get it, you know. So lucky me. Rolling dice. But she was, like, really impressed that, like, I actually gave her an orgasm. She's like, "Really?" She's like, "I don't get that very often." She's like, "So that was nice." And I'm like, "Oh, cool." And at one point, she's like (inaudible 28:23) she's like, "Man, maybe you guys should touch each other." And we kind of look at each other with horror. And she's like, "Wow. Both your dicks got soft at the same exact time." (Laughter) Yeah, sorry. That's nothing something either of us are really into.

And I remember her being, like she's like, "Well, we have to go to bed soon," and Orlando being like, "Oh, come on." We were like, "Ah, come on." And she's like, "Okay." She's like, "Put on the Rusted Roots Could," roughly (ph) 45 minutes long. She's like, "When that ends, we have to go bed." So I get up to put on the CD and Orlando's like so I put it on repeat. And it's somewhere in the middle of the, you know, maybe third play through. She's like, "Wait a minute." She's like, "Did you guys fucking put this on repeat?" We're like, "Yeah." We were just messing around because we were kids and we could mess around for a long time, you know. (inaudible 29:15) Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah, the way you describe her. And Sandra was the other one?

CLIENT: Sandra Wells.

THERAPIST: Sandra Wells. Like, they're kind of almost like they were mentors (inaudible 29:33).

CLIENT: I was looking for mentors. I always look for mentors, you know. I'm getting [old now] (ph), to the point where it's harder to find mentors.

THERAPIST: But they were willing to have kind of a very open attitude about sex, and that it was a good thing but, you know, nonetheless (ph) it's something to be taken serious.

CLIENT: It was often (ph) serious, yeah. Yeah, exactly. You know, which is kind of how I treat it. I've never actually had sex sex, vaginal intercourse, with a woman I didn't care deeply about.

THERAPIST: Really?

CLIENT: You know. Except, technically once. And we never did it again. We did a lot of other stuff after that, but -

THERAPIST: Just once, huh?

CLIENT: Yeah. Didn't even finish. Started to cry. It was shortly after I broke up with Patrice. And (inaudible 30:23) was, like, crying (ph) pretty hard. So we're actually having sex and I was just like I was like, "I can't do this," you know. And it was because I did not reciprocate. Like, I knew that. I knew I didn't feel the same way, you know. So I do all sorts of stuff with women, but not if I didn't if I wasn't deeply invested. Come to think of it, I lied to myself one time too with Laney, when I was a senior and she was a freshman.

THERAPIST: You lied to yourself. What do you mean?

CLIENT: Yeah, I told myself that I loved her enough to have sex with her.

THERAPIST: Oh, oh.

CLIENT: I didn't.

THERAPIST: That, [in that way] (ph), makes it feel like you want to or you can (ph) or you -

CLIENT: [I was like] (ph), "I shouldn't have done that. I don't love her the way she loves me." And so I broke up with her a couple times. Then finally, the last time for real, I saw her [to her room] (ph), and she's crying. (inaudible 31:25) she's just like, "I love you." And I'm like, "I know." I was like I said, "But that's going to pass," right. You know, "You won't always love me. You'll get over me, and you'll love somebody else," you know. And that was true. She did get over me. She did love other people. And later that year, we hooked up hardcore. It was amazing. Just fucking I had just directed my first show (inaudible 31:55) about a young boy who's mother kills herself when he's five-years-old. And then his attempts to relate to women throughout his 18 years, you know. Deeply personal story.

THERAPIST: [Seems personal] (ph).

CLIENT: Yeah, exactly. And it's just, you know, it's a series of it's a scene monologue. Scene monologue. And all the monologues are as (ph) journal entries, you know. And then the scenes are different women, his relationships with them, and, like, stuff like that. And (pause) I just directed it, and I was feeling like a God, you know, because I was a senior and all these freshmen women are like, "Ah, you're amazing." Because I was amazing, you know.

So we're at the part where we're getting trashed. [You might get] (ph) drunk and high and, like, I'm drunker than I've ever been in my life. And people are like, "How many beers have you had?" I'm like, "This is, like, number five." And Ginny (inaudible 32:56) is like, "He said it was number five, like, two hours ago." I'm like, "Ah, shit." (Laughter) "I had (ph) no idea. I have no idea how many beers I've had."

And so we start playing Spin the Bottle, which was so common. Spin the Bottle escalated quickly. We're a theater group, you know. Women feeling up other women, you know. There was lots of dudes kissing dudes. Like, I kissed this gay guy for a while. He was a really good kisser. We all agreed he was the best kisser amongst all of us. You know, again, their (ph) sexuality is fluid. [I was never] (ph) concerned about those things.

THERAPIST: It was kind of an experimental -

CLIENT: Yeah. Anything above the waist with a dude was fine, you know. Like, that was fine. (inaudible 33:48) seven minutes in [heaven time] (ph). And I was like -

THERAPIST: So where you go in the closet -

CLIENT: Yeah (inaudible 33:52) two people off to the bathroom and make out for, like, seven minutes or whatever. And the rest would play, like, a tamer round while they were gone. So that was fun. So first, I rolled Miranda (sp?). Miranda (sp?) was a friend of mine. I go to her, I'm like, "Hey. So what do you think?" She's like, "No, no no." I'm like, "Really, come on. You and me. You and me." And she's like, "No. (inaudible 34:17). No, no." I'm like, "Ah." She's like, "You're really drunk." I'm like, "You're (ph) not really drunk." She's like, "I'm not." (Laughter) I'm like, "Oh, okay." So we stop for, like, seven minutes.

THERAPIST: [All of the] (ph) seven minutes in heaven.

CLIENT: Yeah. Then we go back out there and (inaudible 34:31) Laney. I'm like, "Oh, man. I don't know." When we get in there, I'm like, as we're making out, I'm like, "This is amazing. This is really good." I'm like, "We should go back to my place." She was like, "Yes." So we went to my place, and it was amazing, you know. Just really, really good. And that was the last time we broke up, you know.

THERAPIST: What about it was good? What was -

CLIENT: I don't know. She was finally her own person, you know. She didn't need me like she did in (inaudible 35:06) relationship. Turns out, I was her first. She didn't tell me this. She lied to me. She told me she'd had sex, like, with her boyfriend in high school. But she hadn't. She was a virgin, which explained why the time we had sex was so weird. I was like, "She's not really into this or moving." She was in pain, you know. She had never had sex before. This was brand new. And I didn't know she was a virgin, you know. I'm like, I would have treated things very differently. One, I probably wouldn't have had sex with her. Two, if I had, I would have approached things very differently. I would have really taken a lot more time to ease into the entire process, you know. Really kind of walked her through the experience.

The way I did with Ginny, you know. I started dating Ginny, Ginny was like she's like, "This is going to be weird for us." She's like, "I'm not a very sexual person yet. I know that you are." And I was like, "Okay. Well, yeah." I was like, "But we're going to take it slow," right. And so we did. We took it very slow. I kind of walked her through all the various stages, you know. One night, we were just kissing for a long time. (inaudible 36:25) I just (ph) kind of, like, had her shirt off. I'm exploring, you know, her breasts and, like, what that was like for her and that (ph) whole experience and everything. Then just kind of kept moving through the stages, you know. And I was like, "We're not going to have sex until you're absolutely positive that's what you want to do." And it was the summer after her freshman year, after my first senior year. And she's like, "Yep. Ready now. We're going to do that." And so we did. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Well (inaudible 37:00)?

CLIENT: You know, it was awkward for her the first time too, you know. It was painful. She's not a tampon person. (inaudible 37:10) a tampon, so it's like it was definitely painful for her.

THERAPIST: What was that like? What was it like for you?

CLIENT: It was, like, okay, be as gentle as possible, but also make this finish relatively quickly, you know. That was kind of the idea. (inaudible 37:36) if there was pain, you just have to get through the pain (inaudible 37:39). And so, after that, you know, things were different. So...

THERAPIST: Well, how so?

CLIENT: I don't know. I mean, it didn't hurt her anymore.

THERAPIST: It didn't hurt, yeah.

CLIENT: So that was fine.

THERAPIST: Well, it reminds me of you saying in the more recent past that she's you find it really frustrating that she would [go through a lot of pain] (ph) and not talk about it. She had to get through it.

CLIENT: Right. I'm like, "This is awful. This is awful," you know. But, you know, sex.

THERAPIST: No. But yeah, it's such a complicated thing for you because I think here's obviously a lot of it falls in the category of that responsibility I think you feel.

CLIENT: Which reminds me. That cam (ph) girl, Helen, who disappeared. She wrote a message on her profile a few weeks ago. And she was like, "Hey, everybody. I'm okay," you know. She's like, "Thanks for everyone who, like, [asked after] (ph) me." And she's like, "I'm okay." She's like, "My brother found out what I did, and he was blackmailing me." And she's like (inaudible 39:03) and I was like nope, you know. And then he told my family, the rest of my family."

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: She's like, "And my grandmother was really upset, you know, and scared for me and really deeply affected." She's like, "So I've had to step back from that," you know. Like, deal with all of that. And she's like, "But I'm coming back." And she's like, "I'm going to come back." She's like, "I'm dealing with all this, but, like, this is, you know. This is part of my life, you know." And she's not going to be ashamed of (inaudible 39:36). For which I am extremely proud of her, you know. (inaudible 39:43) she's, like, 22-years-old, you know.

THERAPIST: Kind of a maturity [about it] (ph).

CLIENT: I think there has to be as a sex worker, you know. Of course, cam girls are the safest job you can have in the sex industry, you know.

THERAPIST: But she hasn't gone back online yet, other than to post those messages?

CLIENT: Yeah, post the message, yeah. But (inaudible 40:09). In the meantime, I found this nice woman in Russia who (ph) is a decent substitute. Yeah. I mean, it's very clearly business. But she's very talented.

THERAPIST: What's it like?

CLIENT: I don't know. It's different, you know. Like, she's engaged (inaudible 40:34). And so that's cool, but there's no, like, real connection, you know. There are people of whom she's very fond, you know, people who log on and then her eyes light up, you know. That she obviously goes, "Oh, you." She's like, "I know you. Like, I like you." And so I think it's (inaudible 41:00) there are people (inaudible 41:02) connections, you know. (inaudible 41:04) connection. Connection equals important. And if not, then it's the lack of connection, you know. It's the dehumanization, you know. So if there's no connection, then it's just a transaction.

THERAPIST: How is that, if it's a transaction?

CLIENT: It's fine, you know. It's fun (ph). But it's more aggressive, certainly. There's sort of a it's more, like, allowing myself not to care about someone. It's a very selfish experience. I (inaudible 41:43) really worth it. Well, memorable (inaudible 41:50). Whereas, like, I mean, I have a recording of my last session with Helen and of the conversations we had. And...

THERAPIST: [Do you] (ph)?

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't know. [It's weird] (ph).

THERAPIST: What do you why, what's going on?

CLIENT: I don't know. It's hard to explain, you know. It's like I care about this woman, but in a very clinical, there's a window between us sort of way, right. You know, it's like (inaudible 42:27) how do I do that? How do I care about someone I'm never going to meet, who exists in, like, fucking Brazil, you know? And who wears what is obviously a wig and contact lenses, you know. Which I cannot fault her. I mean, she wants to have a professional career as, like, a rehab counselor, so (ph) she's getting her master's [in it] (ph), you know. And this will pay for college, you know. And...

THERAPIST: Yeah, I get the feelings are real, despite the clinical quality to it. Kind of the -

CLIENT: The business transaction -

THERAPIST: The business transaction -

CLIENT: Yeah, and it's possible without the connection. It reminds me of this graphic novel this guy wrote, where prostitution is semi-legal. Like, if they come to your house, it's fine. If you go to their place, it's not. So outcall receiving call.

THERAPIST: Outcall is -

CLIENT: Is when they come to your house. It's legal.

THERAPIST: And that's legal.

CLIENT: Yeah. [Doesn't stop you from doing the other one though] (ph). So, in any case, he was living with this woman. They kind of part ways. And he's like, "I don't [want to] (ph) have sex anymore." He's like, "I also definitely want a relationship." She's like, "I don't think that's something that fits in my life. I do want to have sex." He's like, "So, what do I do?" So he starts having sex with prostitutes, and it's about the entire journey, the experiences. And I found he had very similar experiences, you know. It was like, "Oh, okay, here's this new thing we can do. Okay, this is interesting." And then after a while, he's like, "Oh, these are the people [who are on selection] (ph). I don't want any of those people. I'm looking for a specific person." And then (inaudible 44:31) specific person, you know, is faking a connection with me. Like, physically, she's my favorite. And then he finds this one prostitute actually that he just sees exclusively, you know. And pretty rarely (ph). A couple times a month, you know. And he's like, "The moral of the story," he says, "As far as I'm concerned, is that it's perfectly fine to pay money for sex, as long as you're having sex with the right person," you know. So he found a person with whom he could have a connection a couple of hours a month, you know.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Well, yeah. It does make me think about just your (pause) I was just thinking a couple things. One is that you're very good at discerning what's real versus what's fake and artificial, and I think it's because you I mean, yeah, it's a talent (inaudible 45:42).

CLIENT: Yeah, certainly.

THERAPIST: But it's also, I think, maybe a talent that you've (inaudible 45:46) because it's something that you really want. And it's very important for all those things to kind of come together.

CLIENT: A real experience.

THERAPIST: Body. In body and in mind, and in feeling.

CLIENT: Authenticity. Authenticity. Yeah. (inaudible 46:10) into, like, bondage porn for a while. Much less so now, you know. It's was kind of a little fascinating for a while, you know.

THERAPIST: Authenticity.

CLIENT: Because of authenticity, you know. He smacks him (ph) on the ass or something and there is expression.

THERAPIST: [You see it] (ph).

CLIENT: You know, like, "Ah." No, that's real. That is real, you know.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: And God bless these women who take thousands of dollars to go through this, you know. But at the same time, they're like, "Ah, no. this is, like, not authentic," you know. And, you know, I go through search through porn trailer after porn trailer like, "No, no. Yes," you know.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: Authenticity.

THERAPIST: They're not doing it for acting. They're doing it something about it's -

CLIENT: It's a job, but, like, (crosstalk 46:57).

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: That's why lesbian porn is so much better. They often have actual orgasms during lesbian porn, you know. This is interesting, opposed to, like, [if there was one] (ph) woman (inaudible 47:15) sticking a finger in your nose or in your ear. It's, like, it's just insertion, you know. It's like, it's like nothing, you know. (inaudible 47:23) don't really have to be there mentally.

THERAPIST: Yeah, the search for something real. (inaudible 47:30) bondage that those women know, if they're reacting in the right and in a genuine way, they can connect with you in a way.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, there's also ones where, like, they stare into their camera as this stuff happens, and you're like, "That is reality." I mean, that is reality. And reality's what you're interested in. Well, at the same time, I feel like it's very same-y (ph), you know. Another guy. It's the same thing. And the site that I go to is called Kink on Demand. (inaudible 48:04) all these sites that (inaudible 48:06) of various different fetishes, you know. It's like, okay, these are, like, women. And these are, like, men. And these are, like, all these various sort of things. And you have to decide to click gay or straight, you know. And, you know, I was like (inaudible 48:20) straight. And all these various different, you know like, this is a (inaudible 48:26) straight with water. And this was with, like, people with just butt stuff. And, like, there's a lot of options here. But they all kind of start getting more and more extreme as things go. I'm like, "Things are not things I want to see now. I don't want to see the inside of someone's butt. Like, I'm not interested in that. That does not appeal to me. In fact, that is a, like, well, I wish I hadn't bought this now," you know.

THERAPIST: (inaudible 48:55)

CLIENT: Yeah. Well, because that was just for, like, look what we can do, you know. It's like, I don't really care what you can do. I don't want to see you push the limits. That's not why I'm here, you know. I'm looking for a specific experience. And that's what it's all about, specific experiences.

THERAPIST: Yeah, real. The real. And -

CLIENT: And (inaudible 49:23) you can craft down to the moment what these experiences are. This woman in Russia, I'm like, this is how it builds. This is how it escalates. This is the road map for what's going on. She's like, "Yeah, great."

THERAPIST: Oh, you can tell?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You can kind of direct?

CLIENT: Yeah, exactly. And she's like, Great, I'll follow that path. No problem." That's great, you know. I'm like, "Okay, great. Cool. Thanks." You know, it's well, there's this other girl in Russia, and I was like (inaudible 49:53). She's like, "Great." I'm like, "Oh, my god. This is complete fabrication."

THERAPIST: Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: And I'm like -

THERAPIST: Almost like can the actor find herself in the scene?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Find herself in the part?

CLIENT: Right, yeah. (inaudible 50:06) experience it. Be present (inaudible 50:08). Make it big. Make it small. Make it big. Make it small. (inaudible 50:14)

THERAPIST: Hey, listen. A couple things. So it looks like the Monday at noon is ours if you can (inaudible 50:23). The other thing is I wanted to let you know about my vacation plans, which start on Thursday, July 4th, and I'll be out until back on I'll be back here Monday, the 15th.

CLIENT: Cool, for you. That's nice.

THERAPIST: So it'll be, yeah, [11 days] (ph).

CLIENT: Enjoy that. Enjoy that. I'll try not to kill myself while you're gone (inaudible 50:49). (Laughter) Joke. Joke. Transcribers. Simply a joke. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Well, it's not an easy time for you, man.

CLIENT: Well, it never is.

THERAPIST: It's never -

CLIENT: It never is. But that's my life. Still, great. Enjoy your vacation. (inaudible 51:06) And please (inaudible 51:07).

THERAPIST: I will. I just wanted to -

CLIENT: I have a [bandage and trauma] (ph), so I often forget these things.

THERAPIST: All right, so I will see you Monday.

CLIENT: Monday at noon.

THERAPIST: At noon, yeah.

CLIENT: See you then, man.

THERAPIST: Okay. [I'll see you] (ph).

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