TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Good afternoon.

CLIENT: Muggy. Muggy out there.

THERAPIST: Was it still raining when you came in?

CLIENT: Yeah.

(Silence)

CLIENT: (inaudible 00:32)

THERAPIST: Yeah. (inaudible 00:42)

CLIENT: So Monday. Saturday was a trip to the zoo with Eva (sp?). So Ginny and Eva. Eva's 10. What amazed me the most was how confident she was, you know. She gets kind of, like reports come from school that she acts very immature. She wants to play all the baby games [the other kids say] (ph). And she wants to play house and stuff like that and with dolls. And I really want to, like, do other stuff, more mature (ph). So, like, we want to hang out, but at the same time, like, she never wants to do anything we want to do. (inaudible 01:28) play those games (inaudible 01:30). She's in the third grade (inaudible 01:34) back a year. And she's old (ph) for her class anyway. Most of her friends are eight. She (inaudible 01:43) but [still the same problem] (ph).

So I was expecting her to be a little needy (ph), you know, whatever. But, no, she was very confident the entire time. She got suntan lotion in her eye at one point. And she was trying to wipe it out. And she's like (inaudible 01:57). She's like, "One second." She's like (inaudible 01:59). What, and we look. And she takes her water bottle, and she puts it up to her eye and opens her eye and (inaudible 02:06) water bottle. And I'm like, "I hate fucking getting water in my eye." I'm like, that was something else. She's like, "Yeah, it's just like eye drops." I'm like, "Okay, cool." I told Bridget (sp?) about that. She's like, "That's amazing. That's amazing." She says every time Eva gets any little, like, scrap or, like, something, she's always like, "Ah," like it's a big deal. She says, "And I've talked to her about needing to, like, control her reaction (inaudible 02:28)." She's like, "It's just really great to hear she's doing that out in the world," you know. I'm like, that's good.

Well, there's something to that. Kids kind of sense when new adults aren't going to tolerate certain things, you know. (inaudible 02:47) "Why are you freaking out? What's wrong with you? It's a tiny little thing. Chill. Compose (ph) yourself. Breathe." (Laughter) That's the kind of parent I am.

THERAPIST: Yeah, help them manage themselves, yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah, but she didn't have to. She just did it. In various places, you know, we're and I was like, "So, you done?" She's like, "Yeah, we're good here." Like, all right. Great. She's very good at advocating for whatever she needs (ph), you know. And so we're at the zoo and Ginny has the map and Ginny's looking at the map. Ginny is very much, by nature, an explorer, all right. So you give Ginny a map (inaudible 03:28). It's just great. (inaudible 03:30) where everything is and talk about how we get to the various places and how we think that's the easier route to see everything [that we] (ph) to see. And we're like, "Great, let's do that." At the same time, I'm like, "Oh, safari trial. I'm going to go this way." She's like, "Yeah, sure. And then we'll just go (inaudible 03:45)," which is (inaudible 03:46).

But after a while, Eva's like, "May I see the map?" Ginny's like, "Yeah, sure." She's looking at it. She's like, "Uh-huh, uh-huh." Now I see very quickly that she knows where she is. And Ginny's like, "Okay, so we're here. We're trying to get over this way, so we're going to have to go all the way around here." And Eva's like, "Yep, yep." Ginny's still kind of very much like, "Okay, [I'm going to help you] (ph) read the map." And so, we go through the gorilla house, which was amazing because they get, like, this close to you.

THERAPIST: Oh, really?

CLIENT: Through glass. They sit down at (ph) the glass and they stare at you. And you sit that far away and stare at them. It's amazing. And digression. While in that house, I was doing the tether (ph) thing, right, to make sure she's in range (ph) because (inaudible 04:27) doesn't, you know, need me to, like, hover (ph), but at the same time, she's young enough I need to know where she is. So (inaudible 04:33) of a hallway, reading some stuff. I went back to the gorillas. Looked back, she's gone. Like, take a few steps off to the side. Yes, I can see her (inaudible 04:42) but that's an interesting experience to have, you know. I'm like, "Okay, where is the child? There." You know.

And so we come out of there, and Ginny has to go to the bathroom, so Ginny goes into the bathroom. Eva pulls out the map. She's like, "Okay, so we're here. We came out this door." She's like, "And the Dippin' Dots are over here, so we need to get back there." She's like, "So we're going to (inaudible 05:08)." She's like, "All right, so we have to go around this way here, then go over here, and we'll pass the giraffes here, and this is where the Dippin' Dots are." And I'm like, "Yeah, great." She's like, "Okay." And I'm like, "Our route means that we're going to skip the bird cage." She's like, "Yeah, I don't like flying birds." I'm like, "Me either." (Laughter)

So Ginny comes out and she sees that Eva has the map. And I'm like, "Yeah, Eva's planned out our whole route." She's like, "Okay. (inaudible 05:30) Okay, Eva." She's like, "We're here." And I'm like, "No, she's got it. Like, she knows where we are." Ginny's like, "Oh, okay." So Eva leads us around (inaudible 05:38). And she gets her Dippin' Dots. I get some Dippin' Dots, to try them out. And (inaudible 05:49) these are really strange. I don't like these. And Eva's like, "Well, okay, I can finish them." So Eva gets two helpings of Dippin' Dots.

And we're walking back towards the gate to leave, and there's another ice cream novelty stand. She runs up to it. And I'm like, "Oh, okay, she wants more ice cream." And Ginny (inaudible 06:05) she's like, "You want more?" Eva's like, "Yeah." I'm like, "Yeah, of course. We'll grab her another one or whatever." So she gets a SpongeBob Squarepants, like, ice cream novelty and she bites out the eyes, [which are like] (ph) gumballs. She's like, "These are gumballs. [I'm just going to bite them] (ph) because they're frozen. They're not good for chewing." Yeah, I guess that's true.

Yeah, we take her to afterwards, we're like, "Yeah, we need to get dinner," you know. So it's like Ginny's like, "I need to find Taco Bell." Because we stopped at Wendy's for lunch because that was one of Eva's favorite and one of my favorites. And so, we stopped there. And Ginny (inaudible 06:42). She gets, like, a salad there. She's like, "We're going to Taco Bell," because Ginny loves Taco Bell. I love Taco Bell. Eva loves Taco Bell. So we go for dinner. And Eva's got a really bad gluten allergy, so she really can't have gluten or anything.

And so I'm sitting there. Ginny, again, goes to the bathroom. And we're looking at the order. I'm look, "Okay, do you know what you can eat here and what you can't?" She's like, "Well, you can look it up online." I'm like, "I will." She's like, "Yeah, you just go to the website and they'll show you which foods are gluten free or not." I'm like, "Oh, okay," so I look it up. And she's looking [with me] (ph). She's like, "I can have that." I'm like, "Great." She's like, "And I like that." (inaudible 07:17) well let's get that then. And as we get food and sitting down, she's like, "So I really like hanging out with you guys." And I'm, like, (inaudible 07:27). She's like, "This has been my favorite day ever." I'm like, "That's great. (inaudible 07:30)," you know. (Laughter) I'm like, "Oh, that's great. Us too. We really enjoyed having you here."

And (inaudible 07:38) she's like, "This is nice." She's like, "Usually, I have to share this with Dan," you know. And she's like, "So..." (inaudible 07:44) She's like, "I'm definitely taking it home (inaudible 07:45)." Yeah, that's a good idea. And, you know, she's just very real. She's a very real human being. She understands what she wants. Her restraint in the gift shop was so good. She's like, "Can we stop at the gift shop?" I'm like, "Of course we can take a look. I mean, we can go the gift shop, certainly."

And so clever that (ph) she starts at the most expensive stuffed animals. She's like, "Oh, look at this one. Oh, look at this one. Oh (inaudible 08:15). Oh, look at that. Look at this. Oh, it's amazing." And I'm eyeing the price tag, which is like 15 and 20 dollars. And I'm like, "This is not worth it. 20 dollars. [Oh my god] (ph)," you know. And so she's looking around. She gets all the way to the end of the line where the smaller ones are. And she, like, takes a look at the price tag. (inaudible 08:36) And she starts going through all the lower priced items and lower priced items, still trying to see if there's something that I will buy for her essentially (ph). (inaudible 08:47) this is interesting. (inaudible 08:50) cheap, plastic crap. She's like, "Oh." I'm like, you can't even feign interest in that, you know. And then we get up to the counter, and she's looking up at the necklaces and the bracelets and everything. And I'm like, "Yeah."

THERAPIST: Checking out the price tags?

CLIENT: Yeah, she's checking them out. I'm like, I can't buy her these things, you know. But at the same time, she didn't press, you know, and she didn't seem disappointed. She's like, "Okay, I'm going to take a chance here. Like, maybe they'll buy me something, you know. But at the same time, they are taking me to the zoo and they've paid for my lunch and everything." (Laughter) So she didn't press. She didn't press.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah, but then we went out and she saw there was a [turn stop] (ph). She was like, "Oh, I want to do the [turn stop] (ph)." We had already left. And I'm like, "Well, maybe they'll let us back in." (inaudible 09:32) she wants to the [turn stop] (ph). And he was like, go through and go back (inaudible 09:35) a little girl thing, all of a sudden, you know. She's so, like, oh yeah, restraint in the gift shop and advocating for her needs (inaudible 09:43) Dippin' Dots, as we discussed previously. This is the route we'll take and I can plan out the route. And I have problems I can fix, you know. Like, "I'm going to go on the playground, but you don't need to watch me." (inaudible 09:56) go on the slide. But other than that, you know, she kind of goes up there, goes through every single slide she wants to. She's like (inaudible 10:05). And then she's like, "Yeah, I want to go through the [turn stop] (ph), you know." Like, that's just so adorable. And yeah, you know. So that's interesting, that point that she's at, you know, between childhood and adolescent, you know.

THERAPIST: I mean, it sounds very different than the girl that wants to play house.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: A baby (ph).

CLIENT: Exactly. Extremely different. Extremely, like, mature and, you know, [not necessarily] (ph) mature but, you know, a confident version of a ten-year-old, you know. Like, this is going to be a strong woman someday. I'm like, oh. And that's the thing that's amazing about young girls, right, seeing this woman they're going to become. (inaudible 10:59) with boys. Boys are like, oh yeah, this is what he's like. He's going to be kind of like that when he's older, you know. Whereas women seem to have a better journey. Become more complex as they go.

THERAPIST: What boys are you -

CLIENT: Well, you can more easily predict who they're going to be.

THERAPIST: What they are as a child is going to be similar -

CLIENT: Yeah. Well, it seems like that core stays similar. I mean, and then men are less complex, I think, [in many ways] (ph), which I think is a very different word than complicated. And I think that's important, the difference. Complicated, I think, is the connotation that things are difficult and must be gotten around, whereas complex simply means there are lots of parts to it (ph). Lots of detail. A lot of elements to it. So (inaudible 11:50) but, you know, just she had some suntan lotion in her eye. (inaudible 11:56) wipe that off for her. There's these little nurturing things, you know. And I'm like, that's really nice, because I would be such an amazing father. I'm just so good at it.

But Ginny doesn't want kids and I don't want kids, you know. Like, spending the day with Eva, I'm like, "This is great, but I don't want kids." I'm like, I'm glad we don't have kids because (ph) what I said before, you know. And it wasn't, I'm like, "Oh, I'm so glad we don't have kids," because we were having a wonderful time. I'm like, "This is great." I'm like, "But I'm glad we don't have kids because I don't want this every day, you know. I don't want every day." (inaudible 12:31) if she were my daughter, like, that would be it. That would be my entire world, to be focused on her. How do I help her get through the entire thing and (ph) become this amazing person she can be? And she would be, like, my core project, in the way that I do projects, which is very, like, you know, stand back. Okay. Correct. Good. Off you go. I think, you know, (inaudible 12:55) controlling factor, you know. As (ph) sort of advising (ph) as one goes.

THERAPIST: (inaudible 13:06)

CLIENT: Well, I've got a lot of that, [don't I] (ph)? But...

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah, there's something about you guys well, I mean, just thinking about all the times you've talked about her kind of not knowing her place in this bigger family now, not losing kind of, like, the place and when she was with the two of you and just the two of you. It was just you and Ginny, right?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It's the two of you. She felt like she had plenty of that love and attention.

CLIENT: Yeah. And apparently, right before I showed up, she told her mother, she's like, "I'm really looking forward to this because when Uncle Fred comes over, he certainly spends quite a lot with the boys playing video games. I don't really get to see him alone." And I'm like, "That's true. I do play a lot of video games with the boys." That's because I love video games. (Laughter) You know, like, "(inaudible 13:51) video games. Want to play too?" I'm like, that's a good point though. So I'm glad we got to take her out by herself. And, yeah, I think we're going to do more of that because, you know, we all think it was good for her.

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah.

CLIENT: And, you know, (inaudible 14:11) to have, yeah, I think adults who will treat her like an intelligent, rational (ph) human being, you know. We have no baggage of, "Oh, she's our little girl," you know. We don't have any of that like, "Oh, she's still very young and fragile." Even with Dan and Gregory. I'm like, "I suspect that you can keep yourselves alive. Step one, you will keep yourselves alive," you know. Like I'm -

THERAPIST: You have the confidence that they'd be able you have the confidence in them.

CLIENT: Yeah, but I also watch. And sometimes, I'm surprised. Like, "Oh, no. He would kill himself right there (inaudible 14:44). This will kill you." (inaudible 14:47) told you that.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And I could (inaudible 14:50), but I start with the assumption it's called the principle of charity. I start with the assumption that there's a rational basis behind what they're doing. And sometimes, there is, and that's when I'm surprised, and that's when I act, you know.

THERAPIST: Well, there might be. It just might be harder to find what the rational part is. I mean, there might be the you know, if they're playing with a -

CLIENT: Well, rational based on the information I have at hand.

THERAPIST: Exactly.

CLIENT: Yeah, that's (crosstalk 15:20). That's an important thing to remember. It's not stupid. You just don't know anything yet. I remember when Eva was about four. We were at, you know, (inaudible 15:35) when she was still married to [that rapist] (ph), Frank. She pisses me off [for never picking it up] (ph), but any case (inaudible 15:52). You know, trying to open some presents that we were all (inaudible 15:47) Christmas or something. (inaudible 15:48) I need a pair of scissors. I'm like, "Eva, can you please run and get some scissors? "She's like, "Okay." And my mom was there. She's like, Bridget, he just told her to run and get scissors." And I'm like well, here's (ph) what. Eva comes jogging back with scissors. I'm like, "Yes. She does not know not to run with scissors."

(inaudible 16:06) slow down, slow down. And we're like, "[We are careful] (ph) so we shouldn't run with scissors." She's like, "Oh, okay." [I'm like, yeah] (ph). (Sighs) That was my first [of, like] (ph), ah, yes, basic self-preservation. In that case, that was surprising. (Laughter) You know. But still, you know, and I look at the way my father taught me. Still, you know, goes to a fireplace. Takes a piece of paper. He's like, "Do you see this?" I'm like, "Yes." He throws it in. It goes (inaudible 16:36). He's like, "That could happen to you, so don't touch that." I'm like, "Okay." Takes me to a box fan. Takes a pencil. Turns it on high. He's like, "Look at this." Sticks it in. Wham (ph). "That could happen to your finger, so don't do that." I'm like, "Okay." It's a very simple way. These are the consequences (inaudible 16:53). Be aware. Noted (ph). Thank you, father. You know. (Laughter) Like, this is when I'd just started walking. From the time I was, like, probably one-ish. (inaudible 17:04) start walking. I spoke very early. I remember understanding words, like, very early. As early as six months, is what I'm told, the timestamp of my very first memory. Yeah. I have a number of clear, intimate (ph) memories, still, from those days.

THERAPIST: What is it? The crib? Looking out from the crib?

CLIENT: Being, like, outside this rolling crib we had. Like (inaudible 17:36). I could see through that. (inaudible 17:39) crawl around. I remember crawling under the table, because that's how I got around. [They were looking at] (ph) television, and I could still see it's a football game, you know. I didn't know what it was. I was like, "That's interesting," you know. I remember my father (inaudible 17:56) back, sitting (ph) on a bike ride. He puts me in a bike seat, and I remember seeing the back of her, and the sky was blue. And then we moved for a bit, and then she stops. And she's (inaudible 18:09), you know, we have a flat tire, so we have to go back. But there's such an incredible feeling [happening sort of before that] (ph), you know. (inaudible 18:22) because I could see my mother, you know. (inaudible 18:25) It's so simple, you know. It's a simple thing.

THERAPIST: Simple but everything (ph).

CLIENT: Yeah, exactly. All-encompassing. But I remember I knew what her words meant. I remember her words, you know, and I knew what they meant. And I didn't speak yet, you know. But I know what she meant. So my English skills were always quite good, I think, you know.

THERAPIST: Seeing your mother (inaudible 19:01).

CLIENT: And I look at Eva, you know. And all she needed was a different social place, you know. It's like, "You are going off with your uncle and your aunt, by yourself," you know.

THERAPIST: By yourself but with, you know, with these people [that love you] (ph)."

CLIENT: With these people. Yeah, exactly. (inaudible 19:33) okay. So now, I am now, she's like, "Yeah, this is who I I get to be myself."

THERAPIST: Everything is all right.

CLIENT: Yeah, and there's also this (inaudible 19:40) back of your head of like, "Oh, okay. But I shouldn't do those, like, baby things, right, because I'm with these too, you know. I'm a grownup, right. I'm with these two. I get to go do something special because I'm the oldest," you know.

THERAPIST: I was thinking too that, somehow, you guys just, you know, your clear interest in her was what she needed. She didn't need to be playing house. She had you. She had -

CLIENT: She had someone to, yeah, interact with her.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So, on the way home, we stopped to Taco Bell. And she's, like, looking around. She's like, "Oh, okay. I know where this is. I know how to get home from here." So she's like, "So if we need to navigate home, I know how to navigate home from here." And she's like, "Oh, okay. Great. (inaudible 20:34)." And then Tom Tom was like, "Do this. Do that." And Eva's like, "She's got a creepy robot voice." And Ginny's like, "Yeah (inaudible 20:44) she's got a really creepy robot voice. It's freaking me out." And Ginny was like, "Okay (inaudible 20:49) we can probably get home from here without it," because she knows, like, which highway to be on and everything, so she turns off Tom Tom.

And Eva's like, "I know another way home." And she's like, "It lets you skip through all this traffic on the highway." There's, like, no traffic on the highway but, literally, she (inaudible 21:03). And Ginny's like, "Okay. [How do we go] (ph)?" And so Eva's like, "Well, we get off the highway." So she does. And she's like, "And then we go on that street." Ginny's like, "Which street?" "This one." And Ginny's like she's like, "This one, this one." So she turns left sharply. And Ginny's like (inaudible 21:22) left. She's like, "This is left. And this is right." And she's like, "These will be useful words in our conversation." (Laughter)

THERAPIST: (inaudible 21:30)

CLIENT: Yeah, she's like, "This is left and this is right." And Eva's like, okay, left and right. And she's left and right the rest of the way. And she's like, "You can go all the way until you have to turn left." I'm like, "[Do you mean] (ph) the road comes to a T?" She's like, "Yes, when it comes to a T, you're going to turn left." And so we go to (inaudible 21:44). She's like, "That's the ball field where we play softball and blah blah blah." (inaudible 21:48) oh, this is nice. And she's like, "Yeah." And she's like, "Okay." So the road comes to (inaudible 21:52). She's like, "Okay, so turn left and take your first right, and the your destination is on the right," which is what Tom Tom says. And it's so funny. That's how she gives directions.

THERAPIST: She knew it?

CLIENT: Yeah. (inaudible 22:04) I'm like, "Yeah. Eva had a showed us a different way to get home." And Bridget's (sp?), like, getting ready to laugh. I don't know what's the joke. Like (inaudible 22:12) someone. And it was a punch line. She's like, "Oh, that's great." I'm like, "Yeah, she took us by the ball field."

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: Yeah. I was like, "Yeah, so she knows how to get home. And she wanted to demonstrate that." (inaudible 22:24) It was funny. (inaudible 22:28) you sit in the front or the back. She's like, "The front." I'm like, "All right. That's good." (Laughter) You know. She had her EpiPen with her and her Benadryl, because she's allergic to bee stings. And (inaudible 22:40) okay. She's allergic to bee stings. She has an EpiPen and Benadryl. So (inaudible 22:44) EpiPen and a dose of Benadryl, and then the ER. I'm like, "Okay, great." [And then] (ph) I'm like, "Oh, crap. If she gets stung, we have to take her to the ER. That's no fun." [We're like] (ph) I hope she doesn't get stung. And Eva's like, "Yeah, I don't want to get stung." I'm like, "All right. Well, if you see a bee, I'll jump in front of you so it stings me instead." And she's like, "Okay." (Laughter) And I was like, "I was kind of kidding, [but I think I'd have to do that] (ph)." (Laughter)

THERAPIST: Have to take the bullet.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: A bee in this case.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Well, you sound very proud. Very proud.

CLIENT: Yeah, I am. Very proud [of her] (ph). Yeah. (inaudible 23:24), you know. She's like, "Yeah, I was worried, but they were really easy." She's like, "The math is easy too." I'm like, "Oh, good. Good. Math is very important. Good for math to be easy." So I said, "That's good." (inaudible 23:41)

THERAPIST: Well, she seemed really proud of herself too. Very proud that she could show you to get home (inaudible 23:53) the slides. The -

CLIENT: Yeah. She's like, "I can do all these things." She's like, "I know all these things." I'm like, "This is great." I'm like, "This is your independence is clearly coming out. You're asserting your independence. Advocating well for, you know, your needs (inaudible 24:12)." So, yeah. That's very good. Try to teach Michael that (inaudible 24:18) the idea that people will change things that you ask them to, you know. And that's the biggest hurdle (inaudible 24:30).

THERAPIST: Is to ask.

CLIENT: Yeah (inaudible 24:31) I can't convince them (inaudible 24:33).

THERAPIST: (Laughter) That's very true.

CLIENT: Like, well what about we can do this instead? You know, what if we did this? (inaudible 24:45) makes sense. [Can we then do this] (ph), which still satisfies your need for (inaudible 24:49). Most of the time, people will bend for you, especially if you're polite and (inaudible 24:58). So that's the world. Please and thank you are incredibly powerful. We watched this documentary called I Am, which is by the guy who directed Ace Ventura and a bunch of other funny movies. He had, like, a really bad concussion.

THERAPIST: I heard about that, yeah.

CLIENT: It's really good. It goes over some interesting science (ph).

THERAPIST: Did something happen to him?

CLIENT: Yeah, he had a bike accident.

THERAPIST: That's right.

CLIENT: He had persistent symptoms of concussion for, like, months. And he spent a lot of time just wishing he would die. And in that state, he really has, you know, really interesting (pause) revelations, as it were, you know. Epiphanies, [I suppose the] (ph) better terms for that, about what was wrong with the world and how to fix it. And he's like, "(inaudible 25:53) and I had all this stuff." And he's like, "And this was, like, useless." He's like, "None of this made me any happier." He's like, "And it's way more than I needed," so he's like, "I [sold off] (ph)." He was like, "I have this little house now. This is where I live. This is all I need," you know. So, like, that's cool.

THERAPIST: I Am. Is that's what it's called?

CLIENT: It's called I Am. Yeah. As in, what's wrong with the world? I am, you know.

THERAPIST: Oh, I am.

CLIENT: (inaudible 26:22) vagus nerve. I think it's called the vagus nerve [that sort of, like, flush in] (ph) your chest and [your eyes well up] (ph) and that thing? He's like, "We're hardwired for sympathy, you know, for sort of wonderful joys when (ph) good happens to someone else." When we see that happen, we're hardwired for that. He's like, "We're hardwired for cooperation." He's like, "All of life is hardwired for cooperation within its species." He's like, "But we do (ph) a lot to distance ourselves from that, you know, to really separate."

(inaudible 26:59) interesting experiment (inaudible 27:03) different sources. And I wonder at the validity of them. [There's maybe three of them] (ph). It's the heart response sort of stuff. So (inaudible 27:19) many times. The heart sends information to the brain, not vice versa, right? (inaudible 27:24) but it does send information to the brain, in terms of, like, you know, how it feels and how to react and how to (inaudible 27:31). Further, the heart has an electromagnetic field, which it generates, which is also true and easily measurable. And that this field affects the brain activity of people near you, right, and vice versa. So our hearts affect each other's thoughts and (inaudible 27:50), which makes sense (inaudible 27:52) feeling a vibe. Like, oh it's a bad vibe. (inaudible 27:55)

And for me, that's very (inaudible 27:57) because that makes perfect sense. That's why I can feel people, you know. And why I'm like, "I don't trust you. I don't trust you," you know. There are often very good reasons, you know. And it would make sense [some people would be more] (ph) sensitive to that information, you know. So, like, okay. And I've heard this is in this documentary. I've heard this college. And of course, (inaudible 28:24) which was a new course. So I'm like, "Okay. (inaudible 28:28) this makes sense. This makes sense." It explains mob mentality very quickly, you know. Anger arises and spreads. [Like a fuse] (ph).

THERAPIST: (inaudible 28:38)

CLIENT: Yeah, you know. Yeah, exactly. But then they go on (inaudible 28:46) times, which is that they sit you in front of a computer with a randomized series of images. Some which are emotionally jarring (ph), like really negative, like mutilated bodies and stuff like that. And others are just plain old (inaudible 29:05) pictures. And they found that sometimes a second or two before the jarring (ph) picture is shown, the heart would show a reaction to that sort of picture.

THERAPIST: Like it would predict it almost?

CLIENT: Yeah, like it knew something jarring (ph) was coming.

THERAPIST: It knew something was coming.

CLIENT: And that's an interesting concept. Does your heart predict the future? (inaudible 29:35) the neuroscience of consciousness, which says that we are behind. We're lagging behind. And so isn't it possible that our hearts perception is faster than our brain's perception? And so, that it isn't a prediction of the future, so much as it is sending a signal before we realize what we've seen. Is that possible? I don't know. Maybe. Or does your heart predict the future? Is the fact that the universe exists (inaudible 30:03) that collapses (inaudible 30:06), in some way interacting with the electromagnetic field of your heart. Does your heart understand the changes in that field moments before they're about to happen? I don't know.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Well, I think our minds are set up to have us experience things within a certain kind of at a certain pace, which (crosstalk 30:28).

CLIENT: Yeah. Right, because consciousness is many, many layers of neurons firing in different types of (inaudible 30:37). So (inaudible 30:39), right. And so, who knows? I mean, that could easily be the case. It's not that the heart is predicting the future. It's that your heart knows (ph) before you know it. (Pause) That (ph) matter is about to change or it could maybe protect that matter (inaudible 30:57) before your brain realizes that the matter the wave has collapsed, you know. That's the universe. Full of (inaudible 31:07) [when you feel potentially out of it] (ph). He (ph) had collapsed. [They collapsed the matter] (ph). The universe is fascinating, right. Incredibly fascinating.

And then I keep my mind continues to be blown by this concept that we are apart f this molecular machine, in which is the earth, right, which is, in turn, part of this molecular machine, which is the solar system and then the galaxy and then the universe. What's outside the universe? Well, one good guess right now is other universes. Weinstein's new theory of everything. (inaudible 31:44) Dan Weinstein. He's got a new theory of everything (inaudible 31:48) okay, like, this feels right. Like, we need to continue to test this. Like, really, it feels right. Because it fixes some problems with the standard model, right. Specifically the dark matter problems, dark (ph) energy. Comes down to, as I understand the basic rudiments of this theory, it's that dark matter is actually a fundamental force. Essentially the opposite of gravity, right. Of course, gravity pulls the matter together. Dark matter (inaudible 32:28) force pushes space apart, right, you know. So the universe continues to expand and the universe continues to accelerate [in its] (ph) expansion.

This is this should be fascinating to anyone. (inaudible 32:43) about what you did (inaudible 32:46). He's like, "Yeah, time will run out, and we'll go backwards." And (inaudible 32:51) like, "No, no. (inaudible 32:54)." And so the universe is ever-expanding. (inaudible 33:03) blows your mind when it comes to (inaudible 33:05). Something like that, I believe. He's now saying that there's probably 250 dimensions. So it's significant more than we are capable of getting our heads around. You know (inaudible 33:33) we understand 25 percent of reality. That's not a lot, you know. But significantly less now. (inaudible 33:44) so, like, 76 percent (inaudible 33:49) percent. It might be as low as six percent. Or .6 percent. (inaudible 33:55) It's incredibly small, the amount of reality you understand, right. Even if they're wrong, there's only 16 dimensions, incredibly small, the amount of reality we understand. And even the reality that we're seeing, we don't yet fully understand. How did it get here? What was before the Big Bang? Like, what is that?

And one physicist, I heard him theorizing. He's like, "You think it's possible that when two universes collide, that's a Big Bang, which creates a new universe." (inaudible 34:37) possible. But that still doesn't deal w/t he question of where'd the first universe come from? In other words, that might be our problem. We might be stuck in this fourth dimension concept of (inaudible 34:47), right.

THERAPIST: That's constructive (ph). That's a -

CLIENT: It's a constructive thing. And those things don't exist in the fourth dimension. We have the problem of getting stuck there, you know.

THERAPIST: Yeah, we have the problem of being captive to our well, limited by our own -

CLIENT: Yeah, our own perception.

THERAPIST: Our own perception, our own cognitive abilities.

CLIENT: (inaudible 35:15) that's the other fascinating thing, is the ability of life existing in a different combination of dimensions. And what would that even be like? We can't even conceive what that would be like. (inaudible 35:33) but an interesting theory of everything, you know. It's like there's another primal force we haven't considered.

THERAPIST: Which is what's the -

CLIENT: Which is dark matter, that dark matter is the counterpart of reality (ph).

THERAPIST: Oh, okay, okay.

CLIENT: That perhaps that is it (ph).

THERAPIST: Because it's the reason why matter doesn't just collapse.

CLIENT: It's the reason why space pushes apart. And what is space? (inaudible 35:57) is only part of space, right. It's the suit (ph) we're in that makes mass have mass. We don't know what any of that is. We're going to Mars though. Another 15 years or so, we'll be on Mars, watching reality shows happening on Mars.

THERAPIST: That's how they're funding it, right? (inaudible 36:20)

CLIENT: Yeah, and this is what we're going to have in Mars. In my older age, I will go into space for a cruise, you know. Like, privatized space cruise. Feeling old? Spend a week in Zero G, you know. Just do that. You'll feel a lot better.

THERAPIST: (inaudible 36:46)

CLIENT: Yeah. Oh, it takes (inaudible 36:47). That's nice. I'm losing bone mass faster than I'd like though, at that age, so let's not stay out there too long. (inaudible 37:02) new rockets that are multiple use, as opposed to one-shot rockets, like we have now, called the Grasshopper. It goes straight up in the air and just slowly comes back down.

THERAPIST: Close to the same spot? Is that the idea?

CLIENT: What's that?

THERAPIST: It coasts (ph) straight up, meaning a straight line, then -

CLIENT: Well, it's actually the idea is you attach a shuttle to it. Fire that into the air. Release the shuttle, as we do.

THERAPIST: And then it comes back down?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, then it comes back down, that way you don't have to build a new rocket. (Pause) (inaudible 37:41) joke. The joke about various conspiracies (inaudible 37:46) they keep coming back, and they see people in this dark and blue (inaudible 37:50) various conspiracies. And they want to fake a moon landing. (inaudible 37:58) First, they need to find a film crew and make sure we bribe them (inaudible 38:02) for life. That's very important. And [the sultan's] (ph) like, "All right, and we'll have to build a giant space ship." They're like, "Why?" She's like, "Well, when they ask you how did we get to the moon, we'll say in a Chinese space ship (inaudible 38:15)," you know. (Laughter) [It is stupid] (ph). So eventually, (laughter) it just makes it so ridiculous, right (inaudible 38:23) all the things you'd have to do. I'm like, you'd have to [beyond a space ship] (ph), so why not just build one and go (inaudible 38:30). (Laughter) That's the joke. (inaudible 38:34) why don't we just actually (inaudible 38:35). It might just be cheaper just to go to the moon, you know, than to build a space ship and hire a film crew and, like, bribe them all to silence forever. Yeah, so.

Yeah. That's the world we live in. (inaudible 38:56) Eva's amazing. The universe is incredible. Hardwired for cooperation. Deer. (inaudible 39:05) first in deer and in schools of fish and in flocks of birds (inaudible 39:09). The idea was there are three watering holes within range of this deer (inaudible 39:19). And every day, they choose which watering hole to go to. And it depends on where they are, what's the distance, where are predators likely to be. You know, what time is it? How fast can you travel with the old ones, you know. How soon you have to get there. The sort of little ones (inaudible 39:37). And this is, you know, a pretty big decision with a lot of factors every day. But they all move at once to go to the same place. Somehow (ph) they decide. They're like, well, probably the alpha deer. He's like, "We're going this way."

So they studied them. They studied them for some time. What they discover instead is that, at a certain point of the day, the deer start looking different directions. They noted the deer are looking in the direction of a specific water hole, right. They're all, like, "I'm looking at that one. I'm looking at that one." Here's the 51st percent. [They say that] (ph) 51 percent of the herd is pointing one direction, they would all just go. (inaudible 40:14) So democracy. The same thing we found in flocks of birds, is they essentially communicate just nonverbally (inaudible 40:27) agreement, you know. (inaudible 40:30) schools of fish -

THERAPIST: Yeah, what is the signs of (inaudible 40:33)?

CLIENT: Right. And they're like, they're hardwired for cooperation. So they say democracy is nature. Democracy is the base. So that's good. They spent centuries trying to fight that though, you know. And a lot of people still have this mental illness, really believe they can make it on their own or they don't need the rest of (inaudible 40:59). It's idiocy to think otherwise. You have to really know a great deal of facts to believe that. And so that comes out of ignorance (inaudible 41:11) they describe it as (inaudible 41:15) call that an actual infective mental illness that can be spread, you know. And -

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I see what you're saying.

CLIENT: Yeah. (inaudible 41:29) to take more than you actually need.

THERAPIST: And it spreads [to others] (ph).

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: In greed or -

CLIENT: Yeah. Essentially, self-interest, you know. Self-interest past the point of (inaudible 41:44) we know that we need.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Well, I was thinking too about your point about cooperation [to survive] (ph) is that it's this I was thinking about this kind of thing with Eva, was that it seemed to me that it was maybe it's kind of a bit of a paradox, but it seems (inaudible 42:07) true that her independence came from her being able to depend on you.

CLIENT: Sure. Well yeah, it's true. Independence doesn't happen (inaudible 42:18) necessarily, right. I mean, we need to play at being independent, you know. That's what was happening there. It's like, "I now have the space and the freedom to be independent, given that there's a safety net."

THERAPIST: I know my uncle's right down here. I can be a little bit further.

CLIENT: Right, exactly. And he's also not hovering over me.

THERAPIST: He's not hovering over me.

CLIENT: Probably because I have this (inaudible 42:44) we are separate people, you know. And I have my own thing to do. I also don't want to hover over you, right. Like, I don't think that's good for either of us. I hover over very small children, but as soon as they get even slightly capable of (crosstalk 43:07). Yeah. I remember when Dan was first walking. I was like, following him around. And we walked toward the street. And I would stop and I'd pick him up, turn him around, and let him go, you know. That was it. (inaudible 43:19) that way. And after a while, he was kind of wandering around, and I had to turn him away from danger. And finally, I remember being like, "All right, Dan." I said to him, "I'm going to pick you up. You point to where you want to go, and I'll take you there." And (inaudible 43:38). Great. Let's go over there. And I remember asking you questions like (inaudible 43:44), you know. I remember (inaudible 43:49). Yes. (inaudible 43:54) That's a can for recycling. (inaudible 44:04) you break down and you use your (inaudible 44:05), you know. This is the stuff that goes in there, though.

THERAPIST: Yeah, and it's to be him discovering it, rather than it being pushed upon him or something like that.

CLIENT: Yeah. I think I'm very natural (inaudible 44:20). It's like, "What are you doing? Okay. Let's just talk about that," you know. What' s going on? Here's information you need before you proceed. [This is important] (ph). [I remember being] (ph) so inquisitive [at a small age] (ph). (inaudible 44:41) Well, so I went over, and my sister was (inaudible 44:44). She's like, "I don't know what's going on." She's like, Here's the remotes. Can you figure it out?" I'm like, "Yeah, no problem," so I started messing with it. I'm like, okay. I'm like, "Dan, come over here." He, like, waddles over. I open up the remote because I suspected the batteries are reversed. And I'm like, "Check this out, Dan." So I take them out, and I show him the batteries, and I show him the shape (ph). I'm like, "You see the shape (ph)." He's like, "Yeah." I'm like, "Okay. See the picture inside, which indicates how they should go." [Put them in] (ph). Bridget's like, "The batteries just the wrong way?" I'm like, "Yeah, that's what it is." And she's like (inaudible 45:18). "So you see how that goes, Dan?" (inaudible 45:20) you know.

THERAPIST: Now he can do it.

CLIENT: Yeah. Eva was changing his diaper when she was two-years-old. She walked up to her (ph) mom, who's on the phone. She's like, "Mom, Dan had a little poppy diaper, so I changed him." And Bridget was like, "Say what?" And she goes and checks and, like, Eva used the baby wipes and the entire thing. And she's like, "I was rather amazed, because Dan hates having his diaper changed." But apparently, Eva, she was just like, "I'm changing your diaper." (inaudible 45:49), you know.

Still (inaudible 45:57) still gets me every time, when I actually remember I went to Easter because I knew my grandmother was going to be there and my mother was going to be there, at my sister's house. And I wanted to be there for the kids, for Eva specifically, because Dan was still very young. And just to be, like, isn't it crazy (inaudible 46:15). And I was like, "I want to be there for you [when crazy people are around] (ph)." And so I followed her very closely that day, watching her various things. And when grandma was having the argument, slicing away at the turkey, you know, it was, like, violently. (Sound effects) Eva looks really concerned. And she looks at me [with this look of concern] (ph). I'm like, "Grandma's just hacking the turkey with a furious vengeance." And she's like, "Ha ha ha." I'm like, "Yeah." This is funny. Like, this is just funny, you know. Like, look how funny. Look how silly she is, what she's doing.

And, you know, we're all sitting at the table. Eva was climbing into her high chair from the outside, as she apparently often does. And my grandma's like, "Eva, stop it. Stop it, Eva. You're going to fall. You're going to fall." (inaudible 47:04) yelling. "You're going to fall. You're going to fall." Eva's, like, frozen in time. (inaudible 47:10) she looks at me. I'm like, "You're fine." She looks at grandma, and she's like, "I don't have to fall." [And then] (ph) at my grandmother. (Laughter) Eva gets in her high chair.

THERAPIST: How about that?

CLIENT: I don't have to fall. The most powerful words she could have figured out growing up, in that bloodline.

THERAPIST: I don't have to fall. (Laughter) That's right. Ha.

CLIENT: Fucking brilliant. So, yeah. So I just watched (inaudible 47:58) necessary.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, I guess it makes me think of how much well, it makes me think of two things. One is that you'll have these realizations every once in a while. It reminds me of the realizations you'll have of, like, you just getting some bad information (inaudible 48:17), you know, the moths. (Laughter) And you always happen to be that person, that person that you were to Eva. To yourself though. To yourself, to kind of go, "That's crazy," or "That's " And, you know, sometimes there wasn't anybody to go no one has an encyclopedia with a moth around (inaudible 48:40).

CLIENT: (inaudible 48:40) I can fix these things for you already, you know. That's insane. And she picked it up very quickly. (inaudible 48:48) freaking out and having one of her things. And (pause) she's concerned after grandma leaves. So she goes to Eva. She's like, "So, grandma can be pretty loud sometimes, huh?" And I was like, "Yeah, loud and crazy." (Scoffs) (Laughter)

THERAPIST: She got it. She got it.

CLIENT: Good (ph). That's important. So yeah, so [I won't have] (ph) kids because I don't want them and because [it coin flips] (ph). They get bipolar and (inaudible 49:23). And first off, I would say, "You shouldn't just inflict life on someone," you know. (inaudible 49:34) have kids and you make a choice. You're going to exist now. You didn't ask for it, but now you do. And it's going to be joy but also perhaps horrible suffering.

THERAPIST: You didn't have any choice. You were thrust into it.

CLIENT: And now you exist. And by the way, (inaudible 49:50) bipolar. Let's flip a coin. Let's find out. Bridget's kids, [only one of the first three] (ph). Pretty convinced Dan -

THERAPIST: Dan, yeah.

CLIENT: Or he's a sociopath. I'm going with bipolar because sociopath is (pause) well, that'll be a problem, if we get there, you know.

THERAPIST: Yeah. What's your concern about the sociopath?

CLIENT: I wonder what I would have become if no one had been there to beat empathy into me, you know. (inaudible 50:26) forced me to really spend time understanding other people and their motivations, you know. What would I have become? I was very smart from a very young age. [Self-interested] (ph) and angry. Bipolar. What would I have become? I don't know. I don't know. Possibly something scary, you know. It's hard to say. But then, there he is. He has no abuse. No one's abusing him. He understands that words have power. He understands threatening people with a gun has power. He doesn't seem to understand or care about what other people are going through. And that could just be childhood. That can certainly be middle child syndrome. Bipolar child. All the same. He definitely exhibits those qualities. [Who knows] (ph)?

THERAPIST: Is he kind of an excitable kid, or is he very calm?

CLIENT: It depends. When he gets something new, when someone shows up (inaudible 51:48) give him something, he's extremely effusive and happy and excited. But then, once that thing is used up, he gets very sad. And there can be and he'll cry (inaudible 52:06) almost immediately. And he wants very direct control (inaudible 52:13). He's like, "These things are mine, and I will make the choices in regards [to these things] (ph). He's very pleased (ph). Like, "Well, that is up to me," you know.

THERAPIST: Is he into, like, harming animals and stuff like that?

CLIENT: That's -

THERAPIST: Lighting fires?

CLIENT: Unclear (ph). He doesn't like fires. He has attacked his siblings a number of times, but stuff like grabbing their cheeks and just twisting, you know. I mean, just anger. [That's just anger] (ph). So yeah, he hasn't hurt any animals yet or set any fires.

THERAPIST: Those are the big ones.

CLIENT: Yeah, those are the clear signs, you know. So my thinking, he's probably just bipolar.

THERAPIST: Yeah. If he gets, like, kind of excited by cruelty.

CLIENT: Oh, I see. No, that happens when he's furious (inaudible 53:01) [so that's cool] (ph).

THERAPIST: Well, all right. So, Thursday. Sounds different than Eva.

CLIENT: Oh, quite (ph). And different than Gregory. His capacity for empathy is already astounding.

THERAPIST: And he's the youngest, Gregory?

CLIENT: Yeah. Well (inaudible 53:23).

THERAPIST: (inaudible 53:30)

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