TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi, come on in. [00:00:09]

Thank you very much.

CLIENT: Thank you. Good morning.

THERAPIST: Good morning.

CLIENT: So I’ve been thinking a lot about desire and reasons for acting. The things we’ve been talking about. When it comes to here and now, I don’t know what to say. Not that I have nothing to say, just (pause) you can’t fit a lake through a straw, or something. [00:01:39]

That first moment is (pause), feels sort of like that. Hello? There’s many different things that are all sort of crowded together (pause).

We talked some about there being a healthy way or an unhealthy way to make essentially any decision. We were talking sort of about a specific one. But a few weeks before you suggested there might be good reasons for acting or bad reasons for acting. We didn’t talk much about what good or bad meant in that context, but I don’t know if it needs to be overanalyzed. That whole subject reminded me of a seminar I took in college on practical reason. Are you familiar with that? I think that you majored in philosophy. I guess your website says that. [00:03:29]

THERAPIST: Yeah, a very long time ago (crosstalk at 00:03:34). On roles (ph) and all those people, rational. But anyway, it’s a long time ago.

CLIENT: It’s been a while for me, also. But what constitutes a reason for acting, sort of being one of the main questions in the field. And one of the more convincing answers seemed to be (pause) neglecting moral questions, because they become very challenging in that role. That counts as a reason for acting if one has a belief that it will affect a certain end, and has and wants motivational set, a desire for that end. [00:04:27]

The fun part of philosophy is saying things that are fairly straightforward as complicatedly as possible.

THERAPIST: That’s true.

CLIENT: (pause) On the subject of thinking about leaving my wife, it doesn’t seem like a good reason to leave. If I have trust issues—there’s probably a better way to phrase that, but that was the fastest way to say it—the problem is that I am unable to trust people. That really says very little about her, or the relationship in terms of how it relates to her. [00:06:05]

So one approach to the problem is to, sort of say is that the case? You know, I certainly seem to have difficulty trusting people (pause). And then, try to sort that out before I sort out the other questions. Like what do I do in this particular situation? I’m not sure that’s really the—that useful of a way to go, but it certainly appeals to my normal instinct to take a problem that exists, or is imposed on me in some way, and figure out what’s wrong with me, and try to fix that. Or to try to do something in the face of a problem that I don’t know what to do about [00:07:43]

For example, I’ve had several things sitting on my plate for a while. I need to find a job. I’ve been working on this particular paper. I need to finish my dissertation, in addition to the car still broken, and do taxes. Last week I deposited my dissertation, so that’s done. Did our taxes, so it’s sort of like, in feeling overwhelmed, my response is to find something I can get done, and finish that so I can devote less mental energy to the overwhelmed part of it, and just handle the things. [00:08:29]

You know, it also seems like a bad reason for acting, analogizing that I feel despair in certain types of circumstances. Feeling despair about my relationship does not seem like necessarily a good reason to leave. None of these things say there aren’t good reasons, but... [00:09:15]

(pause) So that’s some pieces. Do you have any thoughts?

THERAPIST: About what you said?

CLIENT: Yeah, or anything at all.

THERAPIST: I’m listening to how you’re thinking about it (pause). Do you feel like you need more guidance?

CLIENT: (pause) You know, at the end of the day, I think I want this to be a conversation. If I talk the whole time, I won’t think it’s a conversation. I don’t know if I need more guidance, but I trust you to find the balance in these extremes. If I sit here and talk at you the whole time, most of that I can do by myself. And I haven’t gained any insight that I didn’t already contain, but my hope is that you have insights into me or will have in the process insights and can help. That doesn’t mean at any given moment you need to have the magic cure, or anything. [00:10:58]

THERAPIST: Do you feel like so far more of one extreme today? Not saying much.

CLIENT: Yeah, but that’s often how we start. And I haven’t given you space until I asked, “do you have any thoughts?” (chuckling) Sometimes you jump in, but...

THERAPIST: Do you feel alone in this decision?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah I do. That’s a really interesting question. Feels like a decision I have to make (pause). And for whatever reason, it’s one that I’m not willing to talk about with almost anyone. [00:11:58]

(pause) In the last month, you’re the only person I’ve talked about it with. So yeah, I guess I do feel alone.

THERAPIST: Are there people you’ve talked with it before then?

CLIENT: Not extensively. It’s come up in talking with my parents (pause). Yeah, we haven’t talked about it a whole lot.

(pause) Yeah, most of that’s because—and I guess I have some reluctance to talk about it with anyone. Because most of the people that I might talk about it with know Tanya, and also care about Tanya [00:13:02]

(pause) One piece is I feel like—it puts the other person in a potentially difficult spot, having that conversation. You have to take a side (pause). It’s a thing I think about, but is it a thing I’ll actually do? I don’t know. It seems like talking about (chuckling) has the potential to be like a false alarm. I don’t know that I endorse any of the logic, or any of what I’m saying. Just (chuckling) these are more or less some of the reasons why. I don’t know if any of them are good reasons. [00:14:22]

THERAPIST: Good, not to talk to other people.

CLIENT: Yeah (laughing).

THERAPIST: Well, the false alarm would only be true if you talking with someone to inform them, versus to engage in a conversation and get feedback.

CLIENT: Yeah (pause). I think that’s an essential part of this conversation that is informative, and I’m thinking about this. That’s a big thing.

THERAPIST: Do you think issues of trust come into it, too?

CLIENT: Yeah, of course, of course. I think that sort of sensibility is part of why I said I don’t think any of these are good reasons. [00:15:24]

THERAPIST: That you couldn’t trust anyone with this very sensitive information, or very sensitive feelings and thoughts?

CLIENT: Yeah, I think that’s right (pause). It’s been a long time, but we’ve talked about this in a context I don’t actually remember, but in the sense of I—there’s a part in which I don’t particularly care about the information, but I don’t necessarily trust people’s responses to it. Trust them to be able to handle it. [00:16:34]

THERAPIST: And how wouldn’t they handle this?

CLIENT: (pause) It seems like it would be upsetting (pause). There’s a sense in which that conflicts with my general goal of needing as little as possible and providing as much as possible to other people, and from. [00:17:52]

Not that I necessarily endorse that goal, either. It seems to lead more or less inevitably with a specific problem.

THERAPIST: Do you think that people would be surprised that you’re thinking about this?

CLIENT: (pause) I don’t know. It came up in talking with my parents. I was talking about some of my frustrations and my dad essentially said you start to ask the question, when do you cut your losses?

THERAPIST: That’s blunt.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: I don’t mean it blunt like shocking blunt, but to the point. [00:18:58]

CLIENT: (laughing) But for the fairly practical. It’s good, I like blunt. In that sense it was like, much if I express something to you, and you express the desire or thought that I hadn’t said that’s related. It’s sort of like that. Clearly, he was not surprised that this would be a topic of thought. But the other thought that I had when you asked that is, not surprised, but disappointed. Like I’m failing somehow in thinking about wanting to leave. [00:19:47]

THERAPIST: I just think you’re wrong.

CLIENT: (laughing)

THERAPIST: I’d be very surprised—I mean, we could talk about making a generalization about your friends. But I’d be very surprised if your close friends felt that way. I’d be very surprised. What seems like a big deal to you, of course it’s a big deal. But it would be odd for someone not to know the situation and be close to you, and to know how many years you’ve now gone through Tanya with hospitalizations and so forth. And be like yeah, I can imagine that question would cross your mind and you’d be thinking about it. [00:20:33]

I mean, especially since you’ve mentioned a couple of friends who broke up with people because of that. So I really think the idea of disappointment is a projection.

CLIENT: I wondered which of us was going to say that (pause). Yeah, I think sometimes I am disappointing myself for thinking about it. We’ve talked a lot about disappointment and being disappointed or disillusioned about where my life is, and things that have happened. This sense in which I want to do everything right, or correctly, or well. It doesn’t matter that much on the little things, which is a good thing. To learn something, you have to make a lot of mistakes in doing it, right? At least I do. I don’t want to speak to how you learn things. But it’s hard, you make a lot of mistakes and work through it (pause). But on the big things, I want to do it right, or get it correct. This seems like a big thing. [00:23:14]

THERAPIST: (pause) It is (pause) What are you thinking about? [00:25:21]

CLIENT: (pause) I was sort of casting around for what the next step was, and sort of thinking, like, sorry, I feel better than I did when I came in. I feel less alone. And, thank you. But I was also thinking, so, will I leave and talk with any of my friends about this. And it seems unlikely.

THERAPIST: Why? An obvious next question.

CLIENT: I wasn’t expecting you to ask it, though (laughing). For the same reasons that we just talked about. I think you’re right that I’m wrong, but that doesn’t—often that will actually change my view or approach, but I’m not sure that...(pause) I feel like something has to be relatively loosely held to change that quickly. These things are not loosely held. [00:27:05]

THERAPIST: (pause) It feels very real that you disappointed the people. [00:28:13]

CLIENT: (pause) Yeah, I’m trying to sort out whether that’s the important piece. Certainly what I said makes it sound like it was (pause). Yeah, I’m not quite sure. So, it’s not that I’m unwilling to ask for advice. I’d actually prefer to ask a few friends and family, or someone to talk about major life decisions with me under most circumstances. I find it helpful. [00:29:34]

(pause) So it seems like a conceptually related problem that’s very different is I need to figure out what I want to do as my next job or as my career, and then do it. That seems like an important thing to do, at least financially. But that’s another thing that I’m not really talking with anyone about. I think because the conversations tend to be structured like, how is that going? Which, for me, is like asking for a status report, or an update on what the situation is. And the situation is I don’t have a job and I don’t know what I want to do, about which I feel guilty, or whatever the right word in that spectrum is. I can’t keep straight guilt and shame. [00:31:10]

(pause) And there, I think part of the problem is I don’t know anyone who knows enough to help. They serve a question of, like, what are the options? That has to be a part of that. A very practical question of what job will you take, in the short run. And then, in the long run, of what do different careers look like in your field. Well, I’m not friends with very many chemists. So I don’t know, maybe that’s relevant, or a different light on the same problem. I’m not sure.

THERAPIST: Do you feel the two are related because you’re feeling kind of stuck in a decision—stuck not knowing what to do about your marriage, that it’s hard for you to figure out what to do next with your career? (pause) Because it sort of falls under the umbrella of what do I do with my life? And it’s confusing. [00:32:50]

CLIENT: (pause) Yeah, I definitely think I’d say they’re related. (pause) Yeah, and to return to your earlier question, do I feel alone in that question or decision? I do feel alone in that question, also. What do I do with my life? What should I be doing? I don’t actually think it’s one that someone else can answer. I have to answer it (pause). So I come and talk with you. [00:33:50]

We’re in this place where I don’t expect you to actually answer the question. But I find it helpful to talk with you, and hopeful that I will eventually find an answer. And a little scared that I won’t.

THERAPIST: That you won’t make a decision, or that you won’t—

CLIENT: Oh, I mean, a decision will eventually get made. I guess by me or by circumstances. But that I won’t find an answer to “what should I do?”

THERAPIST: I guess in part it depends on how you define what an answer is. [00:34:52]

CLIENT: (pause) Yeah, I guess so. (pause) You know, you, from several sessions, might respond—well, several sessions a guy might respond (ph) you need to decide what you want to do, which I think (pause) captures a large amount of truth, in very few words.

(pause) But then we’ve come back to the question of what do I want? Which is a question that (pause), is both very hard for me, and about which I have a hard time trusting other people to talk about. [00:36:28]

(pause) You suggested some time ago that something like that might related to (pause) you know, receiving a lot of positive feedback at being intelligent, or successful, or whatever, when I was younger. As if I felt that people liked me because I was this particular thing. [00:37:17]

(pause) Yeah, and in fear of misrepresenting what you said, I lost the second part of what I was going to say. Sorry.

(pause) I think it goes something like, if people like me for some set of positive attributes that they know I present in one way or another, I don’t have a very good sense of how they will respond or feel about me if they know what I want. Of course, that’s all tangled up in I’m not exactly clear what I want, either. But even if in particular cases where it is clear, it’s not—I don’t necessarily feel okay about expressing that. [00:39:17]

THERAPIST: (pause) I had a couple of different thoughts. Like, one thought, sort of to be blunt like your dad is: I don’t want to see you get stuck. Like, I feel like you don’t need to decide tomorrow what you’re going to do about your marriage. And you are engaging in the question, but it’s really important to continue to engage in it. And I can see how other things that really are more time-sensitive can start to get wrapped up in it. Like getting a job. You don’t have to get a job tomorrow, but, you should—

CLIENT: (laughing)

THERAPIST: —you should be actively engaged in it. And so, I’m concerned that things could start to grind to a halt because there’s so much that feels unknown. And grinding to a halt, that process in itself, can be problematic. Making a decision isn’t as imperative I think as being engaged to it. At some point, making a decision is important, but being engaged in it. And I’m not saying you’re not, I mean I think you are (chuckling). But, you know, there’s a way— [00:40:22]

CLIENT: No, I think that’s helpful. Sort of (ph) to say, like the important part of making a decision, the final step is all of the steps up to it. I have to keep making in order to get to the final step, or something.

THERAPIST: And I know I bring this up every few months, and I need to think about the what it means beyond the practicality of it. But I do think, you know, your coming in at least another time a week to, like, roll our sleeves up. Like, all this is really important. And I’m not saying we’re not doing something, by a long shot. But why don’t we do more of it if it’s helpful?

Then I started to think about A, the complication I’m going to be out for a number of weeks, and I’m, you know, appreciative of that. And then, all the other things that came up the last time we talked about it. Your fears of depending on me, maybe some fears of the intensity of the feelings you might have if we met more frequently. There’s a lot wrapped up in it. That is as important as your engaging in these decisions. That was sort of my thought process as I was listening to you talk. [00:41:30]

CLIENT: (pause) I appreciate the directness. So (pause), I’m actually not concerned about the intensity of feelings, or about the dependency. I was very concerned about both of those things. But I feel like the intensity of feelings, like I was—(pause) in retrospect, I think it was tied up in some combination of trust and fear of positive feelings associated with, like, Tanya’s a person that I love, and have love, and perhaps have loved more in the past than I do now. That’s caused a lot of pain, also. There’s sort of a...(pause) I was also—I think I was scared that I would, like, fall in love with you. But I think that was also tangled up in this I do love you, but I’m not in love with you. Those are sort of different forms of the emotion. So those were all snarled up. I don’t know if I’ve picked them up clearly just now. So I guess I’m not. The answer to why not is, like, I really can’t afford to do it financially. [00:43:55]

THERAPIST: Which leads into the part of the issue of coming more frequently, you know, figuring out what you want to do so you can get a job, so you can have more money.

CLIENT: (laughing) Right, which is sort of the snarl that most of my life is in right now, right? Do A to do B to do C. But C depends on, or impacts what you do for A.

THERAPIST: Well, if that’s really the only reason, I would certainly, at least for a period of time, be open for a nominal fee for this. Nominal already makes it sound—devalues it. But a small fee for the second session. If zero dollars is what you can do, a smaller fee with the audio recording, I’d be open to that. Especially for a short period of time until you figure out what you’re going to do next. So, I’d certainly just want to put that on the table.

CLIENT: Thank you. I seem to have a difficult time accepting aid, so, there’s that hurdle also. But that’s probably one that we should talk about. [00:45:12]

THERAPIST: I take good care of myself in many different ways. I wouldn’t offer that if I weren’t serious about that. Like, if I felt uncomfortable about that or felt whatever, I would not offer that.

CLIENT: Thank you. So I feel like a thing that I need to do is, sort of figure out what I could afford. And think if there’s a question that comes up. Because if you’re going to be gone for six weeks, normally I would be paying you during that time anyway. Would you be open to deferred payment?

THERAPIST: That I certainly would be open to. That’s not a problem. We can figure out that piece. I don’t know exactly how the math goes, but that would be fine.

CLIENT: Yeah, sort of like, that’s money I would be paying you, but I’d be paying it to you in June or July. So I don’t have it now, if that makes sense. [00:46:20]

THERAPIST: I’m really, like, just saying we have ten weeks before I go on maternity leave. I would be fine taking that six weeks for the ten weeks, for example. That would be okay with me. In other words, you’d be paying a little bit less per session, because we have more sessions and I’ll be gone. But that would be okay with me.

CLIENT: Okay (pause). I can clearly do that financially, so, I guess I would like to see you.

THERAPIST: Okay, well do you want to figure out another time? We can figure out another time now, we can do it by e-mail. Whatever works for you.

CLIENT: If you have—I mean, we’re running against time here, so if you—

THERAPIST: Why don’t we do it by e-mail? Just because I need to check my schedule too, because I have a few things that are shifting. So I don’t want to offer you a time that I don’t have. But that would be fine.

CLIENT: Sure, okay.

THERAPIST: Well, James (ph), I’ll e-mail you by the end of the day, and we can sort of take it from there. So I’ll see you at the latest, I’ll see you next week.

CLIENT: Okay, thank you.

THERAPIST: Okay, take care. Okay. Bye-bye.

CLIENT: Bye.

END TRANSCRIPT