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CLIENT: Remember coming to my house?

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: They had to say (inaudible at 0:00:02) left this morning.

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: How'd it go?

CLIENT: Well, I have no idea why I love something so stupid. It's like [my Hank, my dog Hank's name being dumb] (ph), right?

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 0:00:18).

CLIENT: (Crosstalk)

THERAPIST: I have a feeling like you could even like that about him.

CLIENT: I do, I do. But he looks so much smarter when [Fanny and JoJo] (sp?) are over.

THERAPIST: (Laughing) Right.

CLIENT: He seems fine. Fanny is just... you can also get the sense that she's just discovering you for the first time, every time she sees you. She's like, oh, crap.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Did you go upstairs? Oh, who's this? She's adorable, though. And you have to stop her sometimes from doing something really immature (ph), because she doesn't realize. She's like, I know I can get on top of this four inch wide strip of couch. I know I can get on top of it, but that's all I know. [0:00:57] I know that I can't get forward or back right now, so that's concerning. But I am here. She just can't stand it. She's like, what am I going to do? I'm just going to pick you up is what I'm going to do, because you're an idiot. Yeah, I don't know, but I love her. So all three pups will sleep in the bed with me.

THERAPIST: All right.

CLIENT: And it's adorable. They do all cuddle up some. One's got her chin over my ankle. Another one's curled up right by head beyond the pillow. Another's along my side or something.

THERAPIST: Affectionate little guys.

CLIENT: Oh yeah, they'll just curl up next to you. I'm lying there, there's three dogs essentially on me. I'm like, this is really nice (chuckling). This is really nice. And it's... I don't know. I woke up this morning, I had Fanny and JoJo sleeping next to me, which was cute.

THERAPIST: Yeah?

CLIENT: Yeah, I just realized, oh, I've got two teddy bears essentially.

THERAPIST: Ah (laughing). [0:01:58]

CLIENT: Yeah, but they came and got them this morning. I'm like, oh well. Time to go. And it's interesting, because you see how people interact with dogs and the way they... dogs change behavior based on who they perceive as being in charge, right? So [at Anthony and Walter's house (ph) they're very much like, waaaa (sp?). We're going to jump up on you, we're going to freak out for 20 minutes when you get through the door, and constantly jumping up whenever we want and being like, aaaaaaahh (sp?), crazy, until eventually they calm down a bit. But then still they're like, hey, can I just crawl up on you without asking, just get up all in your face? They don't do that as much after a few days with us. They're more like, okay, so jumping up on stuff does not go well. We really hear about it when that happens, so I guess we won't do that anymore. And just they're like, oh, okay, I do have to get off the couch when you're eating. I understand this. I didn't realize, so thanks for telling me. [0:02:56] Yeah, so it's cute. And then to see all that immediately undone when they come to get them, I'm like, there they go.

THERAPIST: Is that right?

CLIENT: (Crosstalk) That's how dogs do, though. They're like, oh, this is you. I remember you. As long as you allow that behavior to occur, they're like, oh good. The rules are still the same with you.

THERAPIST: Yeah, they adapt to the leader, I guess.

CLIENT: Yeah, very quickly.

THERAPIST: Yeah, that's interesting.

CLIENT: And they came into that [at the time when Barry] (ph) was recovering from multiple brain surgeries.

THERAPIST: Oh, it's that guy. CLIENT: Yeah, so there was a lot of (pause) uncertainty in the house. And dogs respond to that sort of stuff. You can see it in JoJo. JoJo's like, oh, I'm the boss of stuff...

THERAPIST: Interesting.

CLIENT: [Even though] (ph) she's not the boss of stuff. She's like, I'm pretty sure I'm the boss, and you're not the boss. And then Hank actually can be like, no, I'm the boss. I'm the boss of you guys, because I'm the biggest puggle (ph). So I don't know, let's do what I say, which works fine until Hank gets bored and goes and lies down or something. [0:04:01]

THERAPIST: (Chuckling) But he's the alpha of the three?

CLIENT: Yeah, which is hilarious, because he's so submissive in every other way. But it's cute.

THERAPIST: Yeah, depends on the other side.

CLIENT: Yeah, there's an order, and they're going to fall into it.

THERAPIST: Yeah, it's an order, right. Yeah.

CLIENT: It's how they're wired. (Chuckling) Okay, who's in charge, which is funny. Sometimes I think they think Ginny's (sp?) the disciplinarian and I'm the nurturer, because they... given the choice, most dogs except Alexi (sp?) will spend their time with me. No matter which dogs we have in the house, the dogs are like, oh, you seem cool.

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: But especially with them staying over all weekend they're like, so we're going to be upstairs. [0:04:56] There's a bigger couch with more room and more comfortable stuff down here with you, Ginny. But see, Fred is upstairs.

THERAPIST: (Laughing)

CLIENT: So we're going to go on up there and all three of us curl into a spot for one human, on a tiny little love seat [by my computer] (ph). Yeah. So just adorable, just adorable. (Pause) And then you counterbalance that with this fact that we're all being watched, effectively. The beginning of that, the very least, what do we do? It's like, well, we track metadata. It's like, that actually seems reasonable to a degree. And [then you put in... you look at... what you do with metadata] (ph), is (inaudible at 0:05:43) metadata is there's a track band for a month. And you can see where he was and that he was making calls of various length. And he was here, then he was over here...

THERAPIST: Yeah, did you hear what Snowden said, the guy that...

CLIENT: No. [0:05:55]

THERAPIST: He's the leak, the guy that was the... that leaked the story, worked for... I think he was... either worked for NSA or he was contracted to. But he said, if I wanted to, I could look into anybody's phone or e-mail. It wouldn't have been a problem. And he just said it was so much of a conflict of interest that I couldn't...

CLIENT: Yeah, nice.

THERAPIST: I needed to break the story. Now he's in Hong Kong or something like that. So they can't get... even though he's in trouble.

CLIENT: (Crosstalk)

THERAPIST: (Crosstalk)

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But he so goes beyond just metadata, clearly.

CLIENT: Yeah, well, there you go. So yeah, but we're all being watched. And Sam Harris is like, okay, but so what? (Crosstalk)

THERAPIST: (Chuckling) What did he say about it?

CLIENT: He's like, well, what are you worried they're going to see? It's like, honestly, it's like, really, what's the problem? And I'm like, personal stuff.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: That's exactly what it is, stuff that is just strictly personal and has no interest to anybody, and you just don't really want other people reading it. [0:06:56] It's like...

THERAPIST: Well, we were talking about Thursday... the Thursday, going on the wrong site, what if that is suddenly...? Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. And the only thing you can do is just avoid everything. But look at the point we're coming to, right? This technology will be in a couple of camps eventually. It'll be so easy to access.

THERAPIST: That's interesting.

CLIENT: Right? I mean... but then... and then there's... then what happens? We all live our lives in public all of a sudden, we all live our lives in public. So what does that do to a society, when all of a sudden everything about you can be known? What does that do?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Well, it creates a society where people don't lie, or, if they do, they have to be incredibly good about it, has to take a lot of planning to really set it up over time.

THERAPIST: Yeah, and how safe is your own... what kind of private space can you have? [0:07:56] Where are the boundaries of you and public begin and end?

CLIENT: Yeah, who knows? And society will have to decide that, because that's happening. The tools exist.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So... we're already being spied on. So... but then again, whatever. Right? Whatever. The government has no interest in me. It's never going to. So... and then people like Obama, I guess, who's fine, we basically trust him with that. But what about the next person, right? What are they going to be like? It's like, I don't know.

THERAPIST: Yeah, what are they going to be like with my private life? Are they going to... what are they...? Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. And that's the thing I think that we need to now address when people run for office. You're trusting this person with so much, so very much. [0:08:58]

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. (Pause) No one can have much knowledge...

CLIENT: But then (crosstalk) politicians' lives are forced to be open. They're like, well, we can't have corruption, so we have to just know everything about you. We want to know who you're talking to and where's your money coming from and what are you promising for that money? What's actually happening, right?

THERAPIST: Yeah, it's almost like you've got to... there's got to be something preserved.

CLIENT: Right, or it has to all be available to everyone.

THERAPIST: Or all available to everyone. But I guess that's an equalizer?

CLIENT: Well, right. (inaudible at 0:09:37) oh God, I'm embarrassed about watching porn. It's like, don't be, because everyone watches porn.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. If I got that on me and you've got that on me...

CLIENT: Right, it's like, yeah, so we all watch porn. Great, that's... now we get to know that. That's just in the open. Whatever, fine. And yeah, if we don't want to talk about it, we don't have to talk about it. [0:09:55] But it's known.

THERAPIST: Yeah, as opposed to one person being a looker, the searcher, the other person being the searched.

CLIENT: Yeah. It's the... no, we all know everything about each other.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Eventually that's where I think we're going to get, because really, how will you protect data anyway? And the question's going to increasingly become, why? Why do you need to protect data, all right? And that's (inaudible at 0:10:18) very interesting society we move into. On the subway today, there's a picture of a dude going like this. And it says, respect my space. And it's about sexual harassment on the subway. I'm like, well, no one's sexually harassing a white dude in a suit here.

THERAPIST: (Chuckling)

CLIENT: What are we...? Come on, what's...? Come on.

THERAPIST: I've seen that picture. I'm like, is he the one harassing, or is he being harassed?

CLIENT: Yeah, he seems to be like, hey, get off. Or maybe he's like, I'm going to touch you. Yeah, who knows? But (inaudible at 0:10:48). But in any case there's an app, a see something say something app, that you take a photo (crosstalk)...

THERAPIST: For the Metro? Is it for the Metro? [0:10:56]

CLIENT: Yeah. And you take a photo of the dude, and you report him for sexual harassment.

THERAPIST: Is that right?

CLIENT: You're like, click. Hit the button, submit. I saw this dude doing this thing.

THERAPIST: How about that.

CLIENT: Amazing. Now, that one's... really that's for anything. I mean, so... but on the one end I'm actually in favor of the principle behind that. On Twitter this happens all the time. People are like, oh, man, so and so did this incredibly sexist thing to me. Like, who? I don't want to make a big thing of it. It's like, well, you do, though. I mean, it upset you. You want it to stop. Here's how to make it stop, you tell us who did it. And we're like, what are you doing? Why did you do this? And then that will fix it eventually.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: I mean, if every time someone does something horrible, why are you doing that? And so there you go. By turning a light on these things, you can take power away from all sorts of things.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So I don't know. We become this totally open society. [0:11:57]

THERAPIST: Well, you're getting at, there's benefits, but there are... I mean, it's... yeah, it could take... (Pause) It could expose a lot of things that need exposing, but then there's also something about people's privacy that's...

CLIENT: But is there?

THERAPIST: Yeah, well...

CLIENT: But it's the thing, is there? Is that just an irrational behavior, right? In terms of the species, do we need that level of privacy for the species?

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: We're at a point where still our thoughts are basically our own, the details of them. With enough equipment we can monitor certain things about what your brain is doing, the choices it's making. So... but still for now the details of our thoughts are... maybe not forever.

THERAPIST: Maybe not forever.

CLIENT: I mean, maybe not. Maybe individuality is not the defining factor of our species in the end, right? [0:13:01] (Chuckling) Maybe eventually it's just hive mind, whatever. Plug it all in. It's all... we all become digital. All our bodies and souls if those exist die. And we can use visual... these digital echoes of people who were once... who we were once. I don't know, that seems far out, but...

THERAPIST: Well...

CLIENT: Really that's plausible eventually.

THERAPIST: If everything becomes public, yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah, really, if it comes down to it...

THERAPIST: What is one's own then? Yeah, what is one...?

CLIENT: Well, what is one's one?

THERAPIST: What is one individual...?

CLIENT: What one can do, I mean, it's what one can do.

THERAPIST: That's interesting.

CLIENT: It's no longer what you know, because we can know anything, right? We can know anything. And...

THERAPIST: Mmm. Yeah, what does that seem like to you, though? Does it seem...? [0:13:53]

CLIENT: It seems like a society of creatives. It has a huge market of creatives, which is what is starting to happen. You have people just creating things and making money off those things. Cottage industry is back, right? People make independent games in their basement, and they make money off that. People make Youtube videos and make money off that. People do these creative things people want to watch. We make content for you to consume. So we're all consumers. And more and more of us are becoming makers and then soldiers. So eventually that's it, right? Makers, consumers, and soldiers. (Pause) This is awful.

THERAPIST: What is it?

CLIENT: I got it from (inaudible at 0:14:52). It's black.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: I asked for a regular, and this is black. [0:15:00]

THERAPIST: Oh, okay. (Pause)

CLIENT: It's not so bad.

THERAPIST: You asked for a regular, but you got black?

CLIENT: Mm-hmm.

THERAPIST: We might have some milk. Do you put milk in it?

CLIENT: Milk is fine. But it's all right. It's all right. Yeah, I'll pass on it. It is what it is. I hate that phrase, it is what it is. It just seems one of the worst phrases.

THERAPIST: What...?

CLIENT: It is what it is. People use this to describe something that they don't like. It is what it is. I'm like, well, for now. Let's do something about that.

THERAPIST: (Chuckling)

CLIENT: It is what it is, and you're okay with that? No, I hate it. Well then why are we doing it? Then change it, then change it, then change it.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: It seems like people don't get that, some people at least. [0:15:57] Like, oh, this is just the way it happened. Jesus.

THERAPIST: The... yeah, it's...

CLIENT: Just the apathy of that.

THERAPIST: The beta dog, yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah, it's true, it's the beta instinct, isn't it? Like, oh, I have stuff to do. This is what happened. Action and consequence. It comes to me, and I deal with it. Then it goes away.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 0:16:24) I want Brave New World. That's what I want. I think that was great.

THERAPIST: What, what, what about...?

CLIENT: Brave New World? You're genetically engineered to be happy. So, if you're smart enough to be an alpha, that's what you are. Only alphas are that smart, right? And only they have that drive to be alphas. And all (crosstalk)...

THERAPIST: They're... I forget. They're genetically...

CLIENT: They're all... everyone's genetically engineered to be happy in their class. So alphas make all the choices. Betas do all the paperwork. [0:16:54] Gammas do the blue collar stuff. And then deltas do the lowest blue collar stuff, the most menial labor.

THERAPIST: But everybody's happy with their...

CLIENT: Everyone is happy. The guy, a delta, is like, this is the perfect level of challenge for me, is keeping these toilets clean. This is... this I can figure out. (inaudible at 0:17:14) I can figure out. And so... but they're happy. And then there's... if you're not happy still, there's a drug you can take. Take as much as you want, or just take the drug soma. And you'll feel happy. And all you have to do is buy stuff. That's what the entire society is built around, is you go to work, they give you money, and you buy things.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: They have all these rhymes that they use to guide their society. I only know a few. But... more stitches, less riches. [0:17:56] So the more stitches you see in someone's clothes, the less money they must have.

THERAPIST: More stitches, less riches.

CLIENT: Yeah, so really you should just go buy new clothes, because they're not a lot of money, right?

THERAPIST: Oh, is it patched?

CLIENT: So if you have a lot of money you should spend it.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: Yeah, and, if you're putting stitches in stuff, what's wrong?

THERAPIST: It means that it's older.

CLIENT: Yeah, why don't you buy something new? Don't you have enough money? And so it's a society built on consuming, but everyone's happy. And when they're not they take a pill, and it makes them happy. (Pause) And not everyone lives in society. People live on the outside of it. They're generally trailer park people. And one of them, turns out, is... his mother got left behind on a trip out there and was pregnant with... anyway, so his parents are from the city. And he's been growing up on the outside. And he's been reading Shakespeare. And he loves Shakespeare. [0:18:53] And so he goes to visit the city, and he's like, this is the worst possible reality. This is awful. And everyone's like, why? And people really just want to hear about him, like he's a novelty. And he keeps explaining why things aren't right by quoting Shakespeare, which of course is poetry. Much like they have their own poetry to guide their lives, he has different poetry. And that's the problem. That's the entire book is they have different poetry, and that's why they cannot be reconciled. And this is religion. They have different books, and they cannot be reconciled.

THERAPIST: Different poetry.

CLIENT: Yeah. And that's... and so he kills himself.

THERAPIST: Because...

CLIENT: Because he feels... he's like, I went to the woods because I wanted to breathe deep and, blah, blah, blah, and to find out when I died that I had not really lived. Whatever that... I think Ralph Waldo Emerson quote that is, I think?

THERAPIST: Or Thoreau?

CLIENT: Is it Thoreau?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah, okay. Yeah, that's better with Thoreau. [0:19:58] Yeah, so he's... then he leaps off the fucking cliff. And all the media is like, that was weird.

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: I wonder what that was about. Odd. And then there's the one alpha who goes to...

THERAPIST: What was he disappointed about in the city? What did he [not like] (ph) in the city?

CLIENT: That nobody had any individuality was his thing. Everything was born with these rules. And he had grown up wide open. And look what he was. He prizes individuality, but it caused him so much suffering, and...

THERAPIST: Yeah. Living on the outside.

CLIENT: Yeah. But he had been taught to treasure those things.

THERAPIST: Yeah. How about that? That's really something.

CLIENT: Yeah. And these other people (inaudible at 0:20:41) other things, and so they did. And so they were very happy, except for one dude kind of gets above it all and sees the cost of this happiness, is that, stuff like this other guy can't exist. [0:20:58] This interesting individual thing can't exist.

THERAPIST: God.

CLIENT: And so he's unhappy, and no amount of soma will make him happy. And so, oh God, he's in trouble, [living in 1984]. But then the head of the whole business, the whole deal, their president or whatever, is like, this happens to some alphas. You're very smart, and you get a perspective on something, and it makes you unhappy. So there's an island for you guys, where it's great. You go and do stuff, and you work on projects, pet projects, and... just with a bunch of other people. And you do whatever individual stuff you want to do. It's great. No problem.

THERAPIST: But they kind of account for that.

CLIENT: Yeah. They're like, there'll be individuals. There'll be points where some of our smart people need to become individuals. So we'll send them to an island where they can be individuals.

THERAPIST: Did this guy... did the guy never get wind of this?

CLIENT: No, the wild guy?

THERAPIST: Yeah. [0:21:56]

CLIENT: He wasn't smart enough. He wasn't... he couldn't be an alpha.

THERAPIST: Oh, is that right?

CLIENT: Yeah, he wasn't designed to be an alpha. I think his parents were betas. One was a beta, one was an alpha. Yeah, he was conceived, which is weird, because everyone else is grown in a tube.

THERAPIST: Okay. So no one's a mix, then?

CLIENT: No one's a mix. No one, unless... effectively. There was a mix at some point, we assume, of the initial donors. But yes, since then, it's always done (crosstalk)...

THERAPIST: Right, right.

CLIENT: Because it's just... and at once everyone's... but everyone's happy. (Pause)

THERAPIST: Well...

CLIENT: (Crosstalk), but it's not really important.

THERAPIST: It just made me think a bit about... I don't know, I guess we've been talking about your family a lot lately. And it's just making me think about how... what a different life you have compared to what your childhood was like, and that you've really come from... I mean, you consider it the wild, with the mom that you had, in some ways, in that you're now stepping into a place that's very... I mean, just thinking about the kind of... you have a house that you've stayed there for years (chuckling), Ginny, one wife... [0:23:10]

CLIENT: Yeah (laughing). One wife.

THERAPIST: Dogs that you take care and you're loyal to, and...

CLIENT: That's true. And I'm not insane.

THERAPIST: And you're not insane, and...

CLIENT: So that's nice.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I was thinking, it's still... I don't know if the right word's a culture shock, but I was thinking about the guy who comes from the wild and back in and goes, what's with this world, where everything's supposedly happy, and...?

CLIENT: Yeah. But he can't fit in. He can't fit in...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Because... I mean, because it seems opposed to everything he has been taught to believe...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And it [gets him depressed, he prizes individuality] (ph), that he is his own person. [0:23:57] And it's like, yeah, but how is that working out for you, really, because it's not. You look at it, he's... he wasn't really happy back at home. He's kind of an outsider there.

THERAPIST: Was he?

CLIENT: Yeah, because he was a half-breed, all right? He was not happy, he was from outside. And his mother's insane because she is not... she grew up in this fucking perfect society, and now she's got to live in the trailer park.

THERAPIST: She's in the trailer park with him.

CLIENT: Yeah, and she has no idea how to cope. And so she eventually gets taken back to the city, and she overdoses on soma. When she gets back, all she'll do is take soma. She's like, this is all I'm doing for the rest of my life, and then she dies. And it's like, she was so traumatized at being removed from this, that she... it was so traumatic, that she couldn't deal with reality any more. [0:24:56] So...

THERAPIST: Mmm. Well, yeah, so he doesn't feel like he's really a part of that, the outside. So he's looking for... he goes to the inside to look for something.

CLIENT: Yeah, but then there's nothing. He doesn't really fit anywhere. And... but...

THERAPIST: Mmm.

CLIENT: And that's the thing. That's the story, because he couldn't be happy in that society because he wasn't raised in the society.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah, so it's weird. Yeah, it's interesting. It's probably why I'm not a joiner.

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: I'm definitely not a joiner.

THERAPIST: Well, I was thinking you can be in... if you're the alpha, you feel more individual, don't you?

CLIENT: I suppose...

THERAPIST: I mean, you're a leader...

CLIENT: Yeah, definitely, and... as much as you need to be. (Pause) But that's what we have already, is [being able to] (ph) produce happy, right? [0:25:59] Necessarily... janitors aren't necessarily happy doing janitorial work, even if that's the level of work they're suited for, which kind of seems unlikely. I'm sure most people can do more than janitorial work (chuckling), but...

THERAPIST: Mmm. Yeah, there's not these clear limits of what somebody's intellectually capable. It's almost culturally...

CLIENT: And what happens when the janitor jobs go away? Because they're so mind-numbingly boring, that we just gave them to robots (chuckling). This robot janitor is fucking... cleans his entire life, throughout the week, without rest. We don't need to pay him. There's an electricity bill for charging him, but eventually small fusion reactors... there you go. (inaudible at 0:26:53). [0:27:02] Who knows? And yet we're going to Mars. Right now people are making plans to colonize Mars and enacting them, and enacting plans to colonize Mars. Within ten years, we could have colonized Mars.

THERAPIST: You said it's a private venture, right?

CLIENT: Yeah, private venture. (Pause) Who owns Mars? That's a good question, who owns Mars? Who owns the moon? Whoever can get there first and set up a space, that's who.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (Pause)

CLIENT: So yeah. Puggles and privacy.

THERAPIST: Puggles and privacy. [0:27:54]

CLIENT: (inaudible at 0:27:57)

THERAPIST: It appears very different.

CLIENT: Yeah. (Pause) Yeah. Same way with puggles. We were packed with puggles. Any time you turn around, there will be three puggles starting at you.

THERAPIST: (Chuckling)

CLIENT: Like, so what are we doing now? We're going to the kitchen. Cool. Going to the kitchen, that's awesome. That's awesome. You doing stuff in there? Yeah. All right, cool. We're just going to have a seat. (Crosstalk)

THERAPIST: Yeah, I don't want the government in my bedroom, but puggles are okay.

CLIENT: Yeah, puggles seem fine, yeah. (Pause) Yeah. (Pause) A lot of things changing. (Pause) I'm thinking that'll change politics (pause), once it's like, you have people who are running for office that could be in a position to know anything about us that you'd want to know.

THERAPIST: Hmm. [0:29:05]

CLIENT: It seems weird. What if we want to know stuff about you? It's like, well, there should be open information, right? If you run for... then what happens? You run for public office, you just have to open that stuff up? This is who I am, this is what I do. This is who I am. This is who I'm taking money from and why.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Total accountability all of a sudden. What would that look like? One of the problems with the Internet is no accountability, and so that's going to change.

THERAPIST: Yeah, would it be... would being public make it more... people more responsible?

CLIENT: Well, eventually there will just be you, right? Oh, your Facebook account, your Twitter account. No, it's just you and your presence on the web and your account. [0:29:57] That's who you are.

THERAPIST: Kind of seen by anybody at any time, and...

CLIENT: Yeah, pretty much.

THERAPIST: If you want...

CLIENT: If this... with certain details, like for security stuff, like, oh, perhaps location is on a friends list only, where people [who've had other relationships] (ph), what do you mean? What do you mean your husband won't give you his location tracking? That's interesting. Why? That's weird. It would seem like you'd want to know where he is in case something happened.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It's important. So why doesn't he want you to know where he is? That's weird. At 2:00 today your location thing turned off for a couple of hours. That's weird.

THERAPIST: What happened?

CLIENT: What do you mean, that's weird? Did you turn it off? No, my phone [was on the fritz] (ph). You'd better get that fixed, yeah? That's broken, clearly. So what happens? That's... what happens when...? (Pause) [0:30:54]

THERAPIST: Yeah, why don't you want to be seen? What are you doing?

CLIENT: Right. That's what it's going to be. But then look at 1984. There's that one corner of the room you can stand in, the camera can't see him? Sometimes he just goes, stands there? (Pause)

THERAPIST: Just so he knows that he isn't being watched.

CLIENT: Yeah. (Pause) Yeah. (Pause) Yeah, but... I mean, but there it is. That's the reality of it, and what are we going to do? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Until someone abuses it so badly that we have to change it. Yeah, well, they did this thing. (Pause)

THERAPIST: I think that's what Snowden was hoping for.

CLIENT: Like, this is happening? [0:31:56] You should all know this is happening?

THERAPIST: Yeah. He'll go... he gets... he can't set... he can never come back on American soil.

CLIENT: Yeah, he's a traitor. He's a traitor, yeah, which is funny, that this is called treason.

THERAPIST: Yeah, well, it's (chuckling)...

CLIENT: Like, hey, they're spying on you with as much detail as they want. So (crosstalk).

THERAPIST: That's like with the Pentagon Papers, too. But they actually said that they let the guy off that leaked the Pentagon Papers back 40 years ago [when he announced them] (ph).

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And... but they did let him off because there was so much backlash against the government's abuses.

CLIENT: Oh, yeah.

THERAPIST: I don't know if this will happen with that.

CLIENT: Yeah, who knows? Do we care?

THERAPIST: It took this guy to do something. Yeah, do we...?

CLIENT: Do we care?

THERAPIST: That's interesting (inaudible at 0:32:55).

CLIENT: But also who wants to speak up when the light gets shined on you all of a sudden? [0:32:59] But that's what we have. We have... everyone will be famous for 15 minutes, was that Andy Warhol? It's not far off. It's getting there, it's getting there. You can put your... I mean, at any point in time you can put yourself out there. And with the right techniques you can boost your signals and more people see it.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: We can all be famous for 15 minutes. Charlie bit my finger, those two little kids, famous. Yeah. (Pause)

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: [Ouch trailing, ooooooouuch] (ph). There's an auto-tuned version of that which is really good. Yeah. (Pause) [0:33:57] So what do we do other than just continue to live?

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: And I see... I envision society where... it's just like everyone just go to work and buy stuff and then go home and then hang out with people. It seems like that's the optimal state, right? [We want an environment] (ph) where everyone just goes to work, and everyone makes money and just consumes and sets themselves up for a good retirement so they can continue to consume well up until the day they die. That's what we actually want, right? Just that. And... you've seen Looper? Have you seen Looper?

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Okay, so I love the premise of that, being that, in the future, it's almost impossible to get rid of a body...

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah.

CLIENT: Which is... again, it's happening. It's happening, the point where, well, (inaudible at 0:34:57) we won't have much murder, because you did it. [0:35:02] You did it. We know, because we saw you.

THERAPIST: Yeah, why did they...? How did they figure out...?

CLIENT: I don't know, they don't [say in the movie] (ph), we don't know. But, I mean, think what we're seeing already. It's like, I can feel like I (inaudible at 0:35:11) at his house.

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah, right.

CLIENT: You check the various cameras around, and we see Gordon-Levitt's (sp?) apartment. So clearly... I want to... that's actually what's interesting. It's like, (inaudible at 0:35:32).

THERAPIST: That's what they said... they said that this whole thing happened, I think, the Verizon stuff, because of the Boston bombing, that that got... that the metadata... they wanted to take a metadata look at that right then... [0:35:54]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: To [solve the problem] (ph).

CLIENT: Well, which makes sense, though, because... well, that's with cause. That's great. [0:36:00] That's like, okay, I have a warrant for a period of time to look into this thing. And that's great.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I think, as long as we can maintain that, it's probably a great thing to maintain, until we hit that tipping point again, where it's like, no, this is just how society works. We just know everything about everyone.

THERAPIST: Well, there's some private secret court determining what can be looked at and what can't.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: We don't even know it exists.

CLIENT: But how private and secret is that now we all know about it?

THERAPIST: (Laughing)

CLIENT: Right? What do you mean they're passing stuff in a private secret court? How is that even legal? Well, we made it legal secretly. (Laughing) It's like, okay.

THERAPIST: We couldn't tell you about it.

CLIENT: We couldn't tell you about it.

THERAPIST: We'll tell you about it 30 years later.

CLIENT: Yeah. Well, it's that crazy stuff, where it's like... Verizon's like, you have to give us something, and you can't tell anybody you're giving it to us.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (Pause) Oh yeah. [0:37:00]

CLIENT: So I don't know. Growing pains maybe. Maybe it's just growing pains, trying to find the balance of the power of this information and the ability to use it wisely, with the ability to use it, clearly. I mean...

THERAPIST: Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, there... it's about this all along.

CLIENT: But of course privacy's an increasingly powerful issue the more technology advances and erodes what privacy is already.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Did you see the movie... ever seen the movie The Conversation with Gene Hackman?

CLIENT: No, I know of it.

THERAPIST: It's a great movie. It's... but that's the early 70s. They... Hackman I think works for the CIA or something like that. And he has this ability to eavesdrop because of this great equipment he has, this great audio equipment. [0:37:58] Then it can be used against him.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah, that movie Enemy of the State was a sequel that...

CLIENT: Oh, okay, interesting. It's just... I don't know, man. (Pause) Well, it all comes down to, what can I do about it anyway? And the answer is nothing. The answer is nothing. (inaudible at 0:38:21) really, logically, nothing. Keep my mouth shut, go to work, buy stuff, plan to retire. Keep my nose clean. Boom, there you go. I mean (chuckling)... you know?

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: At the same time we have a privatized prison system, which is a problem. And there's already a judge found selling children to prisons. He would... this was in the south. He had sold people. They overturned 4,000 convictions when they caught him for this, because he would just convict people. [0:38:57] This prison, they needed to make quota, and they'll give you a cut...

THERAPIST: Oh, is that right?

CLIENT: If you send people, so, yeah. The youngest prisoner was ten years old.

THERAPIST: Oh my God. Was he a juvenile judge?

CLIENT: He did some juvenile and some adults, I believe.

THERAPIST: Holy cow. Are you serious?

CLIENT: Yeah, there was an article on it. (Pause) Craziness. So... but at the same time I have to believe that the arrow of history turns toward liberty. Isn't that what it says, is the... is that there is a basic decency of human beings which will erode this. I mean, there will always be people who abuse things, but we will continue to see our way forward. (Pause) Yeah. And Obama's not going for your guns very hard any more. [0:40:00] He was talking about it for a while, but there's not a lot of support for it. Rather, there is a lot of support for it. But the state (inaudible at 0:40:07)...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Don't want to do it. But still [a 3D printed gun] (ph) is not very effective yet because we only 3D print in plastic. It will become more effective when we're 3D printing in other materials.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And it's done. So, I mean, you're not going to be able to keep 3D printing technology out of everyone's hands. You can buy one that will make other one.

THERAPIST: Oh, huh.

CLIENT: It can make the pieces to make another one. So what are you going to do? (Pause) The answer is nothing. So then we'll know everything and be able to make anything. (Pause) How's that going to change the economy? Drastically, is the answer. [0:41:03] (Pause) Drastically. (Pause) Yeah. I see all these jobs. I'm like, I don't know how to do any of those things.

THERAPIST: What things? What do you mean?

CLIENT: I don't know. There's these jobs that come along, they're like, oh, you do the...? Like, no, I've never heard of that. I don't know what that is. So I'm really starting to despair about my ability to get a job in the industry.

THERAPIST: Oh, within the industry, though, there's stuff...

CLIENT: Yeah, well, just within the tech industry. I'll be like, oh, no. I was in games. I made a mistake. Going into games is like going into theater.

THERAPIST: It's (crosstalk).

CLIENT: It's the same useless bullshit. (Pause) As long as I can sit down and fucking channel all of this creation into profitable things, I'm thinking that's my only chance...

THERAPIST: Huh. [0:42:02]

CLIENT: Is to actually make things, because I do believe that. I think we'll get to the point where it's like, what do humans still do better than robots? And when that's, be creative, then do that, because that's a growth industry. That's a... people will always need (inaudible at 0:42:25), it's like, until the robots can do sympathy better than we can. So... but in that case, great! Seriously, when we have robots that can do all those things better than us, that's fine. We've won. We've created a society of robots that will just take care of us. And that's what happens. Who works the mines? The robots work the mines. What do we do? We sit around. We consume the stuff that robots make for us. Awesome. [0:42:56] A generation of infants. (Pause)

THERAPIST: Yeah, but it seems... you're feeling a tad bleak about the job situation.

CLIENT: Well, yeah, at the moment. I mean, it's like... I'm like, what do I do? I've gone out, I've applied, I've talked to recruiters. It's there. I mean, [there's more stuff I can do] (ph) this week. [So fine] (ph). But it's bleak (pause) when I have these abilities...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But then I'm not really using them. And I need to make that my day. Wake up, and just fucking make shit. And that's your day. Eight hours, you make shit. What are you making? I don't know, what are you making today? There's a variety of things you can make, so which one of those things are you making? [0:43:53]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Sit down and make shit. Maybe that should be my day. Maybe that should be what I do. I wake up in the morning and fucking make shit.

THERAPIST: Yeah. What do you think you'd want...? I mean, what... is there something you want to focus your efforts on, that you're really feeling you want to...?

CLIENT: Well, I mean, there's a card game with Pete, which is funny because I'm hampered for the stupidest reason, because we don't have PowerPoint. That's what hampers me. And only a bit, because really it means that I make prototypes. Making by hand, it's a real pain in the ass and time-consuming and kind of prohibitive, whereas...

THERAPIST: What is it about PowerPoint? Is it that...? I mean...

CLIENT: You really... you can make sets of cards very easily and quickly...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And you know exactly what dimensions... you tell it which dimensions exactly to print to. And so you just print out (inaudible at 0:44:46) chop, chop, chop a bunch of cards. (Pause) Yeah, and then you just have a prototype, which is great because we've made a bunch of cards. We've made a ton of cards. [0:45:02] Now we're to the point where we need to do development of playing with these cards. (Pause) It's actually...

THERAPIST: What's the hold...? Is it just getting your hands on, or is it money, or...?

CLIENT: It's money. It costs money to use PowerPoint. Stephen has it, and he has a whole [PowerPoint program] (ph). The plan is, he's going to make a stripped down version of all the cards so I can print them out, because he's got [colored art in his] (ph). I'm like... that's also prohibitively expensive to go through that much color ink.

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah.

CLIENT: I kind of wish I'd bought that laser printer back when I had the job. It would only do black and white, but that's fine. Laser printers are so much more efficient. (Pause) In any case, maybe that's what I should do next. [0:45:57] Maybe I should just put my head down, start creating content, (inaudible at 0:46:02), be a good little drone (pause), find individuality that exists in what I create.

THERAPIST: Ah. Huh. As opposed... what do you...?

CLIENT: I don't know, as opposed to (pause) being upset about just this shit.

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: It's like, oh man, I can't believe they're spying on us. Like, okay, well (pause), what are... what are you worried about? (Pause) What I'm worried about, what worries me... and it's funny it worries me, is that people won't know that I really like porn involving 18-year-old girls, that... oh God, he wants to look at naked 18-year-old girls. Oh my God. [0:46:55]

THERAPIST: What's the...? If people know that, what's the sense that...? [0:46:59]

CLIENT: Well, it's (0:47:00), exactly. Look, what? What happens? Other people are like, oh, I also like stuff. Like, oh, okay, there you go. People are like, oh, well, I like this. I'm like, I also like this one site where these two women wrestle each other, using college wrestling rules, and then the winner fucks the loser. I think that's pretty cool. They're like, oh, that's a little outlandish. Like, okay, fine, but what? Exactly that. I get really (pause) fired up when someone starts making fun of something that I like, for being nerdy? I'm like, what? Really, what is the issue? These things are fun, I enjoy them, so... and people go, oh, nerd. I'm like, what does that even mean? So I really kind of push that, like, are you going to be an asshole about this? And, if so, why? What do you gain? Honestly. And that's such a great question for assholes. What are you gaining right now with being an asshole? What's the benefit to you or the rest of us? [0:47:58] There isn't one for the rest of us, I'm sure. So what are you doing here? That's a question I ask all the time, be like, why do you hang out with that person? It's like, well, because... no, really. What does that person contribute? That person just takes. What do they contribute?

THERAPIST: Ah. Huh.

CLIENT: And if the answer is nothing, then I want that person gone.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: This happened (inaudible at 0:48:20) a couple years ago. A couple people were just being assholes. And it's like, who was happy they were there? What were they adding to the experience? It seems like they just pissed people off. So what did they add? If the answer is nothing, then why are they there?

THERAPIST: Why are they there?

CLIENT: And so then we took them off the list, and they were just gone.

THERAPIST: Mmm. Yeah. Well, yeah, I wonder though why the... I mean, I think a lot of people have feelings about what they watch, what they do, what fantasies they have. But what do you...? [0:48:57] What is that voice saying about... you're watching an 18-year-old girl?

CLIENT: Well, it's shame, isn't it? It's the shame voice.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It's a religious thing. It's sex is shameful.

THERAPIST: Sex is shameful.

CLIENT: And that's the core of religion is shame. The core control tool is shame...

THERAPIST: Shame, yeah.

CLIENT: And fear of course. And shame is just a form of fear.

THERAPIST: Is there anything that in particular feels shameful about it? (Crosstalk)

CLIENT: I don't know, it's like (crosstalk).

THERAPIST: They're young, yeah.

CLIENT: It's like... I don't know. I'm... I'll be 37 in (pause) August. I don't know, people are like, oh, it's easy. And [it makes me think about all things] (ph) when I'm walking now. I'm like, how am I being perceived?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

CLIENT: [People are just like] (ph), oh, no one's thinking about you, except, well, no, but everyone's thinking about everyone, clearly. [0:49:58] And we're getting to a point where everyone can look at everyone. So how are you being perceived? And that's going to be incredibly important. And people like me, who have spent decades of their lives concerned with how they are perceived, will have a huge advantage in the situation. Well, we've really been thinking about it.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. Well, I think, too, that, in some way... one thing about... again I take it back to your mom in a lot of ways, because I think (pause) she not only interfered with your privacy, but she also kind of just looked for things in you and said it was bad. And I guess it made it so like, if you share something about yourself, it got attacked.

CLIENT: Yeah, sure.

THERAPIST: It got condemned and attacked and...

CLIENT: Yes, and, well, I had to fight for any sort of individuality I expressed. [0:50:57]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I had to prove why it was right, and mostly to myself, because she could never hear reason.

THERAPIST: Yeah, right.

CLIENT: So...

THERAPIST: Right. (Pause) So people seeing these things, it opens yourself up to incredible... I mean, not... scrutiny and judgment doesn't even capture it. It's a combination.

CLIENT: Well, but shame is the fear of being judged.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Shame is the fear of being judged.

THERAPIST: Being looked at and...

CLIENT: And because it works when you are given the thought, when it's planted in your mind that the person judging has power to do so. And that's what's so fascinating. Once you reject that the leaders of the church have any sort of connection [to find] (ph), that is a huge weight off your shoulders. It's like, well, now who cares what they think? Honestly, who cares what they think?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But still there's enough of it in your brain...

THERAPIST: The eye is internal.

CLIENT: Yeah, exactly. Now that it's in the brain, well, it's a step away from them, but not from yourself, not from what's been planted... [0:52:01]

THERAPIST: Oh yeah.

CLIENT: Not from the sphere of being persecuted, of being punished for things.

THERAPIST: Yeah?

CLIENT: That's a real fear in my life, I guess, the idea that you will be punished at some point...

THERAPIST: Yep.

CLIENT: That it's always imminent. [It's fascinating] (ph).

THERAPIST: (Crosstalk)

CLIENT: (Chuckling) It was. And it's not true though, is it? It's just not true. It's not imminent. It's not just around the corner. (Pause)

THERAPIST: It was, though, it was.

CLIENT: Yeah. But now [in the world] (ph) how many murders have we stopped? How many rapes have we stopped? How many things have we stopped? How many things will we have to accept and tolerate? We'll be like, oh, we're all reporting everything. Well, there's just not time to deal with these, and honestly why are we dealing with these? [0:52:55] And it's what we're seeing now. It's like, why is weed illegal? God, I don't know. Do you know? No, I don't know. It doesn't seem... is there a good reason? I can't think of one. Okay, let's just fix that. Can't we make money off that somehow? Isn't there...? Isn't it an incredibly valuable product as a country we could be selling? Why can't we do something about that? (Crosstalk)

THERAPIST: [Do they smoke there] (ph)? Is that...?

CLIENT: No, but that's where the best weed comes from.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Because they made it a business. And they don't look for it very hard, and so...

THERAPIST: Oh, is that right?

CLIENT: Yeah, apparently. This was a documentary, it was like, yeah, we (crosstalk).

THERAPIST: Yeah, (crosstalk).

CLIENT: So it's good for the economy. (Pause) Yeah.

THERAPIST: All right.

CLIENT: Next Thursday.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Thursday. (Pause) That was a really interesting session, thank you for that. [0:54:01]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: All right.

THERAPIST: All right.

CLIENT: See you.

END TRANSCRIPT

1
Abstract / Summary: Client discusses his anxiety over the most recent national security leaks.
Field of Interest: Counseling & Therapy
Publisher: Alexander Street Press
Content Type: Counseling session
Format: Text
Original Publication Date: 2014
Page Count: 1
Page Range: 1-1
Publication Year: 2014
Publisher: Alexander Street
Place Published / Released: Alexandria, VA
Subject: Counseling & Therapy; Psychology & Counseling; Health Sciences; Theoretical Approaches to Counseling; Family and relationships; Social issues; Sex and sexual abuse; Teoria do Aconselhamento; Teorías del Asesoramiento; Sexual intercourse; Individuality; Animals; Shame; Psychoanalytic Psychology; Sadness; Depression (emotion); Anxiety; Relational psychoanalysis; Psychoanalysis
Presenting Condition: Sadness; Depression (emotion); Anxiety
Clinician: Anonymous
Keywords and Translated Subjects: Teoria do Aconselhamento; Teorías del Asesoramiento
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