TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Yeah, so you went over to the doc's, yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah, lied to him, again. I just lie to him about marijuana now...

THERAPIST: Yeah?

CLIENT: Don't tell him I'm on it. Yeah, because he gets real, well, I mean, it's just (inaudible at 0:00:19), blah blah blah. I'm like, yeah, yeah, it's fine. Thanks.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: Meanwhile I figure as long as integrals are going well, and they are, that's all that really matters.

THERAPIST: Yeah. He's never... has he ever tried to prescribe you anything... any anti-anxiolytics?

CLIENT: No, just the Lamictal. He wants to use as few drugs as possible while (ph) I'm down with that. So... although I have had some great anxiety lately.

THERAPIST: You've been telling me, man.

CLIENT: Yeah, (inaudible at 0:00:52). Yeah, so... well, there are several... NSA thing keeps getting to me, which is ridiculous because they don't care who I am. [0:00:59] They're not looking at me, they don't care to look at me.

THERAPIST: But yeah, what is it really about (ph)?

CLIENT: I don't know. (Pause) Yeah, so I have been to websites that, when I got there, I was like, oh, this is not necessarily safe. These are places which have forum titles like Jailbait. I mean, okay, I should not be on this site. This is a bad place to be. But still, I have been there. And that sort of thing worries me. I'm like, are there any images burned onto my hard drive that I would go to jail for?

THERAPIST: Mmm. That they'd see and watch?

CLIENT: Right. And I don't think so, right? And it seems irrational that there would be there because I don't have child porn on my computer, right? But still... I don't know. I don't know why it's so terrifying to me. [0:01:56] Just like, it happened in my iMac to the Apple store. It had all those photos of this one model who's 18 years old, pretty freshly 18 years old.

THERAPIST: Oh, I recall that. And you (crosstalk).

CLIENT: Yeah, I was like, what if someone thinks she's underage? What happens then? It's embarrassing. First, one of my greatest fears in the world is prison, just a terrifying idea to me, to the point where every time I think about it I can contemplate briefly suicide. I'm like, well, I'll just kill myself. That can never happen to me.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. Yeah, but it's like going to hell.

CLIENT: Yeah, worse in that it's a real place (chuckling).

THERAPIST: Worse. Well, I say that, too, because it's also I think linked a lot to... if I look at the wrong thing, that this has been deeply ingrained in you. [0:02:59]

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: If I look at the wrong thing, I go to...

CLIENT: Judgment place. Yeah, it's something horrible.

THERAPIST: Really, it's deep though.

CLIENT: Yeah, and so... and it terrifies me, because that was years ago that I was even... went there.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But it still terrifies me, because well, big data. How far back are they going to go? And again, are they even going to care? They're like, oh, look. Here are thousands and thousands of web accounts that briefly touched on pages that are unsafe. And considering that people spend a lot of time on some of these sites, I mean, there are bigger issues than I am. There are people who are actually downloading stuff they shouldn't be downloading. And like, that's really what people have to worry about.

THERAPIST: Well, let me ask you this, what is it like when you see that's... when you go to a site like that? What... tell me just about if and what you find about the appeal to it, and then what happens after that you get hit with... when the fear comes in? [0:03:58]

CLIENT: So I... those points actually when [you really didn't] (ph). You're like, I haven't found anything that's really interesting, and... because you go looking for a specific thing. It's like, I'm looking for this rare set of this 18 year old model, for instance. And you're looking pretty deep into Google links, maybe three pages in, maybe in two, it's like, oh, here's this forum site that has these. And you go there, to that specific forum for that specific reason. But then you can see that there are tags for other things.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: You're like, ah, okay, this is... I should not be here. I should not be here. And...

THERAPIST: Because you'll be what, in a... what do they call it, a portal that could then take you to... there's...

CLIENT: (inaudible at 0:04:47) there's the forum. It's like, here's where... here's the sort of things you have.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Here's the sort of pictures we have. And then, oh, and are jailbait. I'm like, fuck, dude.

THERAPIST: Will you ever click on the jailbait? [0:04:56]

CLIENT: Well, I mean, years ago, it's like, what's in here? And you're like, oh, clearly, these are 14-year-old girls.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And you're like... and they're clothed, but still you're, okay, this is not... this is technically in that area of, no, this should not exist. And, [because of the name of it] (ph), there's an aspect of, oh, that's interesting. That's real dangerous.

THERAPIST: Mmm.

CLIENT: But then that's what terrifies me. Like, no, that's mania. Mania is what is risky. I don't want to be involved in risky things. But the mania can make you take risks. It can make you think that terrible ideas are good ideas. So that really scares me, that really scares me.

THERAPIST: But there's a drive... there's also the drive, the excitement to it, the danger?

CLIENT: There's a curiosity, I suppose. But (pause) in reality those things aren't sexual, you know what I mean? [0:05:55]

THERAPIST: They're not...

CLIENT: Well, there was a point where I was like... years ago, it was like, oh, I can probably also be attracted to 16-year-old girls. [All right, that's a thing] (ph). But as I got older I'm like, no, because now they look like children. And even young college girls now, like, oh, wow, that's just very young (crosstalk).

THERAPIST: Ah, uh-huh.

CLIENT: So (pause) yeah. So I don't have those things. I don't... I try not to go to any place that could potentially have that sort of material on the site any more. It just seems not worth any sort of potential risk.

THERAPIST: And I don't know that... does it sound at all like you're... I mean, that you're drawn to the sexual component of it? I mean, it...

CLIENT: No, I mean (pause), [I think] (ph) in the worst times it was like, I shouldn't be here.

THERAPIST: I see, okay.

CLIENT: It's like, oh, that's what's interesting, is like, how far can I look before I see something...? [0:06:59] Can I look just a little bit more without seeing something that I shouldn't see?

THERAPIST: Yeah, that would get you in trouble or something, right.

CLIENT: Right. And...

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: And there were times where it was like, ah, crap. I saw something I shouldn't have seen. I need to go away. And I've done recursive deletes of hard drives, (inaudible at 0:07:20) no record of that should even exist on those hard drives. But what's the rational thing, [every time] (ph) I tell myself, is that nobody is looking for these things. What people are looking for is for creators of this stuff and people who are distributing it and collecting it, and...

THERAPIST: Well, what I want to say about it is that it hearkens back to this... what you were talking about last week about the pot dealer, that, of course no one's going to go after a simple drug deal for a guy buying pot of all things, right? [0:07:58]

CLIENT: Right, yeah.

THERAPIST: But that doesn't matter. That fear is there. That danger is there. There's something that you find... I mean, I was thinking that it has both the danger element, which it sounds less so in the pot situation, but the (crosstalk)...

CLIENT: Well, there used to be more of it. There used to be more of that fear back when pot was extremely illegal, so...

THERAPIST: Right, right. And that you end up also feeling that, if you look in that area or you go to that area, there is going to be real... there's a potential for real trouble. Someone will find it and do something about it. There's that level of (crosstalk).

CLIENT: Yeah. And it's a scary world when you have a privatized business system that wants more people. And so it gives me that fear of, okay, there are people who are looking for more people... [0:08:56]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And like, but where are they really looking? I'm like, they're really looking at poor people. They're really looking at poor people, people who are going to fall through the cracks. They're not looking for white, middle-aged, middle class dude whose computer was once briefly on the wrong site.

THERAPIST: Yeah. No, I think that's true.

CLIENT: Right? I'm being rational about it, right?

THERAPIST: You're absolutely being rational about it.

CLIENT: There's no (crosstalk) nothing to worry about.

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: Right?

THERAPIST: No, you don't... you have nothing to worry about. But, I mean... yeah. And what I'll say is that, it's the fear that I think is very important here, which is a fear that I think has been with you for a while (chuckling), this fear of... I think what we're... I think that real fear comes from is, your exploration of things that was typical, whether it's sexual or just being curious about the world, I don't know, with your mother was seen as very threatening and very, you're going down some path that's going to take you to hell. [0:10:06]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And there's something about what... a kind of an instinct for curiosity and, yeah, excitement, something new, something outside the box. There's this feeling that it's loaded with danger and something they're going to punish you for. That... (Pause)

CLIENT: Well, and it's terrifying, it's just terrifying. What's especially terrifying is the mania. It is... (Pause) Ever (ph) get into a place where I think it's a good idea to take one risky step...

THERAPIST: Mmm.

CLIENT: Because I'm actually very risk-averse...

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: Which make mania scary. [0:10:57] And... yeah. (Pause) So... yeah. So I live in constant fear.

THERAPIST: But I think anybody... whether it's... and it certainly can be mania. And it can also be doing something that's outside of the fold or something. And that'll hit you with fear, too.

CLIENT: Yeah, what I want most of all is not to stick out. That's what I envision for the future. As information becomes more and more prevalent, as this sort of stuff that's happening now with the spying becomes the domain of every man, once we can all just do it, once the tools exist, someone creates the tools, like, hey, don't worry. We can spy on everyone now. When that happens, when information is totally and completely open, your best bet is that those in power want you to go to work, make money, consume, retire, continue to consume throughout your entire life. [0:12:05]

THERAPIST: Mmm.

CLIENT: That's... it seems to me that's the best case scenario for any society.

THERAPIST: Don't piss people off (laughing).

CLIENT: Yeah, and just set up a simple thing where it's like, look, it's pretty simple. I mean, basic freedoms, basic things, it's like, just... you keep your head down. Everyone keep your head down.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And just go to work, come home, consume, consume throughout your entire life.

THERAPIST: Like, taking the soma.

CLIENT: Yea, exactly. This is Brave New World. Just, everyone chill, which we're getting closer and closer to. People are more and more legalizing weed. They're like, it's cool. Go to work. Come home. Smoke your weed. Consume. Go to sleep. Wake up. Go to work. Go home. Smoke your weed. Consume. Do this throughout your entire life, [because that's good] (ph) for the economy.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. [0:12:58]

CLIENT: And that's what we really have to hope for, is that people are benign, is that the people who are in these agencies who are doing the spying are actually benign and actually have the country's best interests at heart.

THERAPIST: (Chuckling) Right.

CLIENT: That's what we have to hope for.

THERAPIST: [That's a horribly dystopian] (ph)...

CLIENT: Yeah, that's what you have to hope for, is that elected officials and those people in power are there because they believe in true American ideals. They're there because they are the most dedicated servants to the country, the most patriotic of patriots. That's what you have to hope, is that those people are (crosstalk)...

THERAPIST: They don't have, nefarious kind of... yeah.

CLIENT: That those people have scruples. Those people are not going to leverage the potential access they have to do things they shouldn't do, to put their attention in places it does not belong, to go rooting for people. [0:13:59] IT seems like... (Pause) It seems like if you did enough digging on anyone you could find something.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And again I think the people who have the most incentive to keep this stuff tightly regulated are politicians, because if it is ever turned to them, what happens? Every politician to whom attention has been turned in this way has had something, every single time. It's like, let's see if there's something... oh, yeah, there's totally stuff. He's totally abusing his power...

THERAPIST: That's right.

CLIENT: So it's really easy to do that, and so they would have to either make sure that they never got looked at or that they lived completely above board.

THERAPIST: It's like, we've all got something on us. Everybody has something on us.

CLIENT: Somewhat. The more powerful you are, the more prominent you are, the more likely that thing is horrible... [0:15:03]

THERAPIST: Mmm.

CLIENT: The more dead hookers there are in the closet, right? So how many dead hookers are there? Have you ever killed a hooker? How many hookers have you killed (chuckling)? Oh... yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Well, think of Spitzer. He was... when he was district...

CLIENT: Who?

THERAPIST: Elliot Spitzer. The district attorney that got caught in the... got caught with the escort while he was governor of New York.

CLIENT: Oh, (crosstalk).

THERAPIST: And he (pause) vowed he went really hard after escort services and all this stuff and any number of... and then they find out that's using an...

CLIENT: Right, yeah, ridiculous. [0:15:57] And of course such things shouldn't be illegal at all. They should be regulated and taxed and certified and all those things. I mean, ridiculous. We have so many ridiculous laws. [We have] (ph) a Puritan upbringing as a country.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. Huh. (Pause)

CLIENT: But, I mean, the world has to become a better place. And I think it's up to... it's very curious to see what people think that means. What does it mean to make the world a better place? And...

THERAPIST: Yeah, but you've got to trust in... yeah, the benign intentions if you can kind of sleep... put your head down on the pillow at night.

CLIENT: Yeah. [0:16:45] I mean, can we trust that, in this age of terrorism and the need for tools to find and kill terrorists, that we can somehow hold onto these ideals, these American ideals of freedom, of liberty, of government of specific rights that we've... that were created for us, that we all agreed on (inaudible at 0:17:17)? (Pause) Can that happen? Can we maintain that? We are the most powerful military in the world without question. It's... we can be more places in force more quickly, than any other military in the world. China's got a huge standing army, but... (Pause) What, they have no distribution. They have no bases across the world. They'd have to actually go conquer those spaces, whereas we already conquered them. We're just hanging out. [0:17:57] We're like, oh, no, we're just here for your own protection. But if you step out of line we'll just start killing people, so don't step out of line. But what I do like is that other countries, like Europe... is we are training insurgents in other countries. It's like, are you rebelling? Apparently Europe is supporting a lot of Syrian rebels with training and non-lethal things, and, yes, go overturn the government. More power to you. And I think there's a lot of value to that. I think there's a lot of value to us being in the Middle East. And people are like, oh, war. I'm like, eh, no. We actually need to fight this war. The older I get the more I'm like, no, no, no, you need to be over that...

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: Because the threat of nuclear terrorism exists. It is incredibly real. (Pause) And people say, well, we just might be making it worse. It's like, well, it's not going to get any better if we suddenly stop. [0:18:56] It's not going to be like, ah, okay, they pulled out of here. Let's... everything's fine now. It's like, no, because these are religious zealots.

THERAPIST: Mmm.

CLIENT: These are... this is the core of Middle Eastern terrorism, are jihadists, are fucking crazy extremist Muslims, much more dangerous than crazy extremist Christians, because they're just funny. They're just funny. Like, oh, look at you. You guys, you're trying to change the world, but your children are going to reject you and everything about you because the world no longer allows your idiotic concepts. Religions are so provably false now that it just... you'd have to really maintain ignorance. This is why Mormons, this is... are you a Mormon?

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: Great, because you cannot respect the intellect of a Mormon. You cannot do it. For as long as they remain a Mormon, this person should be a secondor third-class citizen to you in terms of their intellect. These are people who are frankly worthy of contempt. [0:19:56] Once they've been exposed to the truth and choose to deny it, that is contemptuous. That is bad for the species. That is less involved than the rest of us. That is contemptible, because Mormonism is... my friends are like, why do you pick on Mormons, and... all religions fit. That doesn't matter, I said. In every religion you can argue that your stuff was divinely inspired. You can be like, no, no, no, God actually spoke to Abraham, and this is what he said to say. [With the Mormon faith] (ph) you can say, Joseph Smith is a liar, and we know he's a liar.

THERAPIST: Mmm.

CLIENT: And we can prove that he's a liar in several different instances. And so clearly... [just look how church policy] (ph) changed in relation to history of the time. Now they're like, oh, this is evil. Oh, is that not popular? Oh, it's fine now. It's fine. I mean, it's just so obviously fake and manufactured and run by humans for political, economic means. [0:21:04]

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: And again, the problem of the self-perpetuating ignorance, [I mean] (ph). It's not the people are evil. It's that they were sold something when they were a child...

THERAPIST: Mmm.

CLIENT: And so they believed it, and so they told their children to tell their children.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And again it's not like everyone's like...

THERAPIST: And only a good intellect would kind of snap out of it...

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Or you get somebody that kind of helps you get...

CLIENT: And even... I remember the guy who was touted as the smartest Mormon in the world. And he was a smart guy. He'd been to college. He even had his Master's in something. So he was really impressive to the other Mormons. And he was just touted as this really smart guy. And he could explain the Bible to you, and that... he could explain all the weird things that didn't make sense... [0:21:57]

THERAPIST: Oh, is that right, he could answer all the...?

CLIENT: Yeah, he could answer those things. And I remember thinking like, ah, okay, this guy's supposed to be really smart. I had a class with him one time, young men's deacons (inaudible at 0:22:08). And I remember him saying, okay, so let's look at the following situation, he says. He says, you're a basketball player...

THERAPIST: The what situation?

CLIENT: This following situation.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: So you're a basketball player in high school, a really good basketball player. And they're offering you a scholarship to go play college basketball. But you haven't gone on your mission yet. So what should you do? Should you take two years off and go on your mission, or should you skip your mission, take the scholarship, and go to college? And I said, scholarship. And he's like, no, no, no. Your mission. Why? Well, because if you don't do your mission now, you might not do it after college, and you want to have had your mission before college so you're better prepared to face the challenges, the temptations of college. [0:23:01]

THERAPIST: Ah.

CLIENT: And I'm like, but that scholarship goes away. I can go to college now for free. I should go to college now and be a basketball player. That should be my career. He's like, no, it's really more important that you give all that up and go on this... and if God wants you...

THERAPIST: (Crosstalk)

CLIENT: And if God wants you to be a basketball player...

THERAPIST: God will take over. Oh, okay.

CLIENT: He'll make sure you're a basketball player. And... but, if you go and you don't get a scholarship when you come back, he's like, that's what God wanted to happen.

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah.

CLIENT: You'll be blessed in other ways.

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: You'll be blessed in other ways.

THERAPIST: But they're also asking you to kind of trust something, trust that all this will work out, (crosstalk)...

CLIENT: Yeah. Trust that an 18-year-old boy who's been indoctrinated all his life into this cult will go out into the world and be able to speak convincingly and passionately about his faith and bring in more sheep. They (ph) will take 10% of everything I make, this organization. [0:23:57]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But who profits the most from the Mormon church? Politicians probably.

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: I mean, you know the Mormon church donates to political projects (ph). Like Prop 8, they funded the Prop 8... a large part of the Prop 8 resistance.

THERAPIST: Oh, is that right?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: It was revealed that a large part of the funding came from the Mormon church.

THERAPIST: Is that right?

CLIENT: Yeah. And they're trying to be more progressive with, like, homosexuals aren't evil. They're just not allowed to have sex, because they can't get married. So that's why they cannot have sex, because you can't have sex outside of marriage. So, simple.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: You can be gay all you want. You just can't go out and be gay.

THERAPIST: That's their stance?

CLIENT: That's their stance, as stupid as it is. And... yeah. There's some gay Mormon boys on YouTube. They're like, I'm fine with it. I'm gay, but I'm celibate... [0:24:56]

THERAPIST: I don't have sex.

CLIENT: And that's fine with me. God wants this for me. It's the challenge he's given me.

THERAPIST: But yeah, they're not thinking for themselves.

CLIENT: No, of course not. They never think for themselves. That's what faith is, is the allowance to stop thinking. It's permission not to think about difficult things. Permission not to think. (Pause)

THERAPIST: Yeah. (Pause) Yeah, that's powerful, seeing those kids say, yeah, I'm happy that... and I'm celibate, and I'm gay. And that's okay.

CLIENT: Yeah. And that's fine with me.

THERAPIST: It's fine with me.

CLIENT: And there's one guy who has comments on his own video. He's like, this was two years ago. He's like, I have sense left the church.

THERAPIST: (Chuckling) Huh.

CLIENT: He's like, I wasn't happy.

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: He's like, it was all fake. And he's just like, I realized [I was lying to myself] (ph)...

THERAPIST: It was all fake (crosstalk).

CLIENT: Yeah, and so he's like, so I left. He's like, I just... he said, I couldn't imagine any God who would want me to feel the way I did and who would do that to me... [0:26:03]

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: Who would make me gay and then want me to suffer. And it's like, good, good for you. Yes. This is your first warning. Any... in any system where it comes out that God is an asshole, it's probably an incorrect system, given that the basis... some of the most basic tenets of (inaudible at 0:26:26) teaches that God is love and that is what is professed and taught, then at any point in which your system indicates something different, that should really raise a flag for you.

THERAPIST: That should (crosstalk).

CLIENT: (Crosstalk) wait a minute.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Why...? Well, that's interesting. As Sam Harris says, it's like, we talk about these particular gods of Abraham. [0:26:54] And he's like, but then you look at tsunami in Japan. He's like, and all these parents, cradling the dead bodies of their children, praying to God that something will be done. He's like, and their prayers will not be answered. And he says, given all the horrible suffering in the world, all the people who pray to God for deliverance and then are not delivered, he says you have to either conclude that, if this God exists, he's either impotent or evil.

THERAPIST: Mmm.

CLIENT: Either he can do nothing, or chooses to do nothing. (Pause) So why do you believe in him?

THERAPIST: Mmm. And why do you believe that he...?

CLIENT: Right, and so he's like, and the answer is that God's mysterious. He's like, when good things happen, God is good. When bad things happen, God is mysterious.

THERAPIST: Well, yeah, you don't see the intentions, [his intentions] (ph).

CLIENT: Right, yeah, and this is the answer. [0:27:54] The answer's like, why do bad things happen to people? It's like, oh, God is mysterious.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It's like, well, yeah, or not involved...

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Or not involved. And then when people are like, well, why are people...? People wouldn't be good to each other without religion. No, people would be good to each other without religion. They would. People have been good to each other before even religions that had moral codes in them. It's just more like, well, Thor's going to fucking blow up your house with lightning if you don't put some offerings on that. Shit, Thor blew up your house with lightning. Yeah, you must not have done the offerings right. I guess not. Better luck next time. Whoops. Worst case scenario, this guy keeps fucking up with [Thor offering] (ph) as you can by his exploded house. Maybe he should leave, lest Thor blow up all of our houses. Could I get a reference? No, no you could not (laughing).

THERAPIST: (Laughing)

CLIENT: See what some other tribe has to say about you. Yeah. [0:28:55] So... (Pause) And (pause) so, I mean, again, this reminds... assure me that I'm being irrational in my fears.

THERAPIST: Yeah, they're irrational.

CLIENT: You think so? You really do?

THERAPIST: Yeah. I mean, I don't know... then again, I don't know anybody that doesn't get a little freaked out when something like that happens. But are they going to come after you? No, (inaudible at 0:29:21). They've got bigger fish to fry.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Yeah, they're not... yeah, but I know that it's...

CLIENT: Still, that terror of, oh no, crap. I opened the wrong door. I opened the wrong door.

THERAPIST: Yeah. No, they're looking for the people who are distributing it, are...

CLIENT: Who are collecting or... or going through that door intentionally multiple times, and...

THERAPIST: Yeah. Even that, I mean, I think it's really... it seems to me they're going after the people who distribute it because they're probably close to the person that's actually taking the pictures... [0:30:04]

CLIENT: Yeah, right.

THERAPIST: [That's the person they want] (ph).

CLIENT: And that's the bastard they want. And that's good. And that stuff should be stopped, and... yeah. Yeah, I guess (inaudible at 0:30:16). That stuff is awful.

THERAPIST: But the guy that opens up the wrong web page? No.

CLIENT: Yeah. (Pause) I hope so. Yeah, (inaudible at 0:30:31), so I live my life in fear. That thing keeps coming back up. And I'm like, it's irrational, it's irrational, it's irrational. (Pause)

THERAPIST: Yeah, and if... was there...? Did you click on the wrong thing recently or something, or...?

CLIENT: No, I mean... and... there was a... I was looking for 18-year-old models. [0:30:55] And I thought a good search term would be nubile. I thought that was... because that means at marriageable age but also young? And this one place was like, oh, Nubile World or whatever. I'm like, all right, doing some quick searches, it seems to be safe. It's not a malware site as far as I can tell. That's good. So I click the link. They're like, important, everyone here is 18 years or older. And that very sign on the front page, I was like, I don't want to be here anymore. Anything that comes on that very first page, like, hey, important, this is totally legal. I'm like, okay, I don't think I should go to that. Any site that feels like it should state that.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay.

CLIENT: Sites where again the first things you see, like forum sites, where the first thing's like, hey, no posting child porn here. And I'm out. I'm gone. If that's a concern you guys have...

THERAPIST: That means there's a chance that it might be there.

CLIENT: Right. Then I shouldn't be here at all. No one should be here. [0:31:56] Yeah. (Pause) So...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. So there you go. I mean, I keep telling myself, don't... stay close to the road on things you know. Stay close to the road where the signs are clear and the well-trafficked path.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It's like, don't get curious. Don't... it's like, if you can't find the porn you're looking for on the first page of Google results, then you aren't going to find it any place you want to be.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Well, let me ask you this. Do you have...? I mean, if you set aside the concerns about kind of a Big Brother watching kind of thing, what about...? Do you find yourself concerned...? Do you find yourself looking at yourself going, what am I doing? Is that...?

CLIENT: Sometimes. I'm like, why am I risking this? [0:32:55] Why am I continuing to search in Google for these things? And... because very quickly it gets really shady. I'm like, I'm just looking for some nice pay site, where you subscribe to some site, and they're like, there's all these naked 18-year-olds. I'm like, ah, that'd be great, thank you. If you don't find that on the first page, then there aren't any safe ones. And [one of the best things] (ph) you can do now is go one step further back and doing a search for porn site review sites. They're like, okay, go to this. It's a level up. It's like, okay, what am I looking at here?

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And it's... and they have a lot of incentive to be on the up and up...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Especially the places where you pay for stuff, they have a lot of incentive, although apparently that's also one of those things people do, is they set up sites that purport to sell child porn and then try to get your credit card information. [0:33:58] And then boom, now we have you, which makes good sense. And it seems like also an incredibly stupid thing to do...

THERAPIST: Mmm.

CLIENT: Go on the net and try to buy illegal things. Seems like those would be monitored very carefully. I mean, that's what I would do if I were an agent. I'd be like, where are sites that offer illegal things?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Let's just watch those. You could get a warrant for that without almost any difficulty. It's like, who's going here?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I think that'd be easy. So (pause) again, I guess that's the thing. What I'm really afraid of is accidentally seeing the wrong thing. And that's... there's an easy way to avoid that, is just staying near the road.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh, yeah. [0:34:55] Although I guess there's a curiosity I imagine not just about... you're saying not the kind of the exciting aspect of being involved with something kind of dangerous. But it's the girls themselves that held some of the appeal, huh?

CLIENT: Yeah, well, the 18-year-olds, (crosstalk)...

THERAPIST: Yeah, what is it like? What do you find...?

CLIENT: I think it's that borderline. It's that borderline.

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: It's like, they're just now legal.

THERAPIST: Just now legal.

CLIENT: They're fresh, they're young. And there's this...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like they said on Game of Thrones, if you take that dress off, everything stays exactly where it is.

THERAPIST: Oh. With the body?

CLIENT: Yeah, exactly. Everything's perky, nice. So...

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. It's the body... the body is part of it.

CLIENT: Yeah, certainly.

THERAPIST: And also that they're fresh.

CLIENT: And also that... yeah, the idea of innocence changing to knowledge. Okay, authenticity. [0:35:53] BDSM porn, which is really evolving into even stranger and stranger things. But what is interesting about it is the reaction of pain, where that is real. That is real. That happened. That's why there's so much porn which is obviously fake. There's noises and everything. It's difficult to fake that instant reaction, real reaction.

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: Authenticity.

THERAPIST: Do you find it more with the younger girls?

CLIENT: Well, no, I find... what it is with the younger girls is really interesting. You can really watch (pause) them and who they're also pretending to be, and that interesting intersection of nervousness with a projected confidence. And so much of my porn stuff is cerebral. So much of what I find interesting is cerebral, in terms of, what is she thinking? [0:37:02]

THERAPIST: Oh, yes, yeah (crosstalk).

CLIENT: What is she experiencing? Is she nervous? Is she unsure about this? Is she projecting? Is this what she's been waiting her entire teenage life to do?

THERAPIST: Mmm. Yes.

CLIENT: Some real interesting stuff about that.

THERAPIST: Yeah, what (crosstalk)?

CLIENT: (Crosstalk) just watching anything real happen. I really get irritated with places that are like, oh, here's this scenario. I'm like, and everyone's just obviously on the surface. It's interesting how the toughest models, the ones who are willing to endure the most... women who'd be like, yeah, here are actual reactions you're going to have from me. Yeah, $3000 seems worth 45 minutes of work, or in many case 20. [0:37:55] So that's interesting. That's certainly interesting. Yeah, I think a lot of dudes are just like, oh, show me some boobs.

THERAPIST: But for you, yeah, it's something about their reactions.

CLIENT: I want to know what's going on behind their eyes, that's what I'm all about.

THERAPIST: Yes, yeah.

CLIENT: What's going on in their mind?

THERAPIST: What do you imagine?

CLIENT: I don't know, it's just very scenario-based. I like to know... I want to see them experiencing something real. It's like, even sex with people, I always look for some sort of connection. I could never just have sex with somebody. Ultimately I need to feel something for them. I remember this girl was in my room. She totally wanted to do me. We were kind of making out a bit. I'm just like, I'm just not into this girl. Like, she's here. She's taking her clothes off. She wants to have sex, but I'm like, I don't really care about her that much. I don't really know her very well. [0:38:55] And I just had to be like, I'm sorry. I can't do this.

THERAPIST: Mmm. There wasn't... you didn't know... whatever was behind her eyes...

CLIENT: Wasn't something I was interested in.

THERAPIST: Ah.

CLIENT: She was a nice person. I mean, she was. I liked her. But I wasn't interested in who she was, interested in watching her have experiences. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, (crosstalk).

THERAPIST: Well, just the little bit you touched on with the girls, it sort of reminded me of your description of what you... was behind your eyes when you were going through those experiences with the older women at Alfred. In some way a curiosity, an interest, anxiety, about the meaning of it all...

CLIENT: I suppose. I mean, I worried (ph)...

THERAPIST: The importance of it, something about the importance of the sex.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Fresh, all that. [0:39:58]

CLIENT: Well, I don't know, it's like... (Pause) I don't know. Maybe I'm sick, but I like father-daughter fantasies...

THERAPIST: Uh-huh?

CLIENT: Even though it's clearly wrong. It shouldn't exist in the real world, the fantasy of it is definitely interesting.

THERAPIST: Huh. What...? Yeah, tell... what about it?

CLIENT: I think it's the idea that there's some female who's totally devoted to you, who exists just for you and no one else.

THERAPIST: Mmm.

CLIENT: That's the interesting part about it. That's what (crosstalk)...

THERAPIST: Devoted to you. Yeah.

CLIENT: That's what cannon (ph) girls and prostitutes are for as well. This is a person for some period of time totally devoted to you.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It's... yeah. There's something to that.

THERAPIST: Huh. And it's erotic.

CLIENT: Certainly, in a power differential.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: It's interesting. Yeah, but... yeah. (Pause) [0:41:03]

THERAPIST: Yeah, that's (inaudible at 0;41:05) the power and the... kind of the devotion of the daughter.

CLIENT: Yeah. I suppose. And... yeah. It's interesting. And there's a lot of that out there, father-daughter thing.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: But much of it is just awful, poorly made crap. Again, everything I look for is cerebral.

THERAPIST: Well, the real, the real...

CLIENT: Yeah, I want some sort of... or at least well-performed or well set up.

THERAPIST: A girl who would really act that way, really feel that.

CLIENT: Yes, would actually be a good actress. Yeah, that's the sad thing about porn, there's not... there aren't enough actors to fill all the roles. There's just people. [0:41:55]

THERAPIST: People.

CLIENT: I will take off my clothes and have sex for $50 (inaudible at 0:41:58). But still... (Pause) Still. (Pause)

THERAPIST: You were about to say something about... I cut you off.

CLIENT: Oh, I don't know. I forget now. But... (Pause)

THERAPIST: Yeah, father-daughter, father...

CLIENT: Yeah, and it's difficult to talk about that.

THERAPIST: Yeah?

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, I don't know why. It's a weird thing. It's certainly a recurring scenario (crosstalk)...

THERAPIST: Well, I'm glad you'd tell... I'm glad you feel comfortable enough to say it.

CLIENT: Well, it's been two years at least, right (chuckling)? So yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't know. It's scenario. And there's a part of me who's really glad I don't have a child. I worry.

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: I worry, would I do something wrong? [0:43:02]

THERAPIST: Hmm. (Pause)

CLIENT: Yeah, so I don't know.

THERAPIST: Yeah, what would you think?

CLIENT: I don't know. I mean, would mania, would risk, would any of those things manifest in a dangerous way...

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: Considering how much time I spend not ogling women...

THERAPIST: Ah.

CLIENT: When my instinct is to be exactly that. But I fight against that because it's uncomfortable for people.

THERAPIST: Yeah, well, I guess your concern also makes me think about what you were just talking to me a few weeks back about your mother and... well, the shower that you described...

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: And also the talking with you about sex that she did, the kind of bringing you in to all that? [0:44:00]

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: How she really went (ph) there with you.

CLIENT: Yeah, it's fucked up. Yeah. That and her constant accusations toward my father about sexual abuse.

THERAPIST: And sexual abuse. Constantly... yes. Man.

CLIENT: There would be some memory, there would be some feeling, there would be something that would indicate truth to what she was saying. But there's nothing. She used to...

THERAPIST: Get out of the marriage, right?

CLIENT: Well, yeah. Well, she maintains to this day that he called her and confessed one day. I'm like, I don't think that's real. I don't think that actually happened.

THERAPIST: Mmm.

CLIENT: It doesn't make any sense that he would. It's like... (Pause) Yeah, I don't know. [0:44:56] I mean, my father peed with the door open, but that wasn't an issue. He was a very earthy dude, but that's how he always was with everyone. He was like, oh, what up? I'm peeing. (inaudible at 0:45:07)

THERAPIST: Well, I think you're getting at is...

CLIENT: Yeah, he was aware of... he was comfortable with nudity. He was comfortable with sexuality. But he never did anything sexual, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mmm.

CLIENT: I remember the closest thing I could think of any sort of interaction is when I was seven. This was in the bathroom. [I was trying to put] (ph) my pants back on. He's like, okay, do you want your penis up or down? He was like, you have to make that choice when you're putting underwear on. You have to make it, up or down. Like, oh, okay. I was actually thinking about that, and there you go. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Which is fine. It's a good thing to tell someone.

THERAPIST: But I think it's that... it sounds like at the most salient level to you is that your mother had said these things to you about him... [0:46:03]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And that it's kind of like... it's more of your mother's kind of... she'll say a lot of things. God knows if it's the truth or not.

CLIENT: Said a lot of things. [You were right] (ph), and...

THERAPIST: And with that kind of level of an accusation, what do you do with that, when you know your mother is...?

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Projects a lot of delusional material at you.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But it sticks in your... how can it not when your mother says something like that to you, how do you...? How does it not stick in your head?

CLIENT: Yeah. How indeed? How indeed? (Pause)

THERAPIST: But man, she went after men's sexuality with a...

CLIENT: With a vengeance, yeah.

THERAPIST: With a vengeance. That they're dangerous. [0:46:59]

CLIENT: Dangerous, inconstant (ph), and aggressive.

THERAPIST: Constantly aggressive, will take advantage. If they see something they want, they'll do it.

CLIENT: Yeah. Can't be trusted. Nor can your daughter be trusted (crosstalk)...

THERAPIST: Nor can your daughter be trusted to seduce him. (Pause)

CLIENT: Gosh, it's so crazy. (Pause) Yeah, so... anyhow...

THERAPIST: That's some pretty fricking deep stuff, man.

CLIENT: (Chuckling) Yeah, you think so?

THERAPIST: (Chuckling) Yeah. Absolutely.

CLIENT: Tell me one more time my fears are irrational, just...

THERAPIST: Yeah, your fears are... I mean... it's... yeah, nothing's going to happen to you.

CLIENT: Right. Right, that makes sense, right?

THERAPIST: Well, I want to say, are your fears irrational? No. But it's not going to happen (laughing). Not that... what I mean to say is, everybody I think in your position would be scared of something happening. [0:47:59] Are they looking for you? No. I can tell you from the outside. Nothing's going to happen to you.

CLIENT: It's strange, I want that to be more comforting than (ph) it is.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 0:48:14).

THERAPIST: I wish I could do it.

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't know.

THERAPIST: But, I mean, the reason... I mean, maybe it's... I say it's not an irrational fear because I think anybody that had something pop up on their computer would be understandably worried. But they don't go after people like that (ph).

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: They go after people who are distributing, and taking the pictures...

CLIENT: Yeah, they go after people who are criminals. They go after people who are dangerous.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: That's where their time is spent, with dangerous people. And that's what I should remember, they go for dangerous people, not incidental passersby...

THERAPIST: They've got bigger fish to fry than you. [0:48:54]

CLIENT: Yeah, than... right. Lazy (ph) (crosstalk)...

THERAPIST: Because first of all there's millions of people who have gotten much further.

CLIENT: Yeah, that's true. That's true. (Pause) Yeah, I should try calming down...

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah.

CLIENT: Not feel it. Take a walk home, call my sister...

THERAPIST: Yeah?

CLIENT: See how she's doing. I often call her after we talk.

THERAPIST: Do you?

CLIENT: Yeah, because we talk about mom for...

THERAPIST: Is that right?

CLIENT: Yeah, about other stuff.

THERAPIST: What does she like to talk to about it?

CLIENT: I don't know. I mean, we both have a lot to talk about in this area. And she sees her own therapist. Ginny sees a therapist now (crosstalk)...

THERAPIST: Oh, is that right? (Pause)

CLIENT: So that's good. She's like, I'm having a really hard time opening up to therapists, and... she's like, I feel like it's always the first few hours it's like, oh, here's all about me. And I'm just saying, I'm like, you should tell her that. [0:49:58] That's how you should open up. She's all, really? I'm like, yeah.

THERAPIST: (Laughing)

CLIENT: And she's like, okay, well, [I also wonder about this] (ph) in therapy. Great, you should tell her that, too. That should be your very first, here's what's going on with me.

THERAPIST: You know how to do it.

CLIENT: Yeah. I'm like, it's so useful.

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: People are like, oh, [I don't want] (ph) therapy. I'm like, it gets easier after the first six months. But it takes practice.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It can be difficult, it can be uncomfortable. It's something I've been doing for years, so I'm really good at it now.

THERAPIST: (Chuckling) That's right. You've been working on it.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: All right, so Thursday, right?

CLIENT: Thursday, 9:00.

THERAPIST: 9 AM, all right. How hot is it out there?

CLIENT: Hot. Like, 80 something? Yeah.

THERAPIST: See you.

CLIENT: See you later.

END TRANSCRIPT