TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

RESPONDENT: …To me was you can’t chug two hot ciders; just don’t do that.

INTERVIEWER: [Chuckles] Is that right?

RESPONDENT: It’s not how you do it, especially if you’re 115 pounds. Don’t just…

INTERVIEWER: It was how many – two?

RESPONDENT: Two.

INTERVIEWER: Straight?

RESPONDENT: Straight – just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

INTERVIEWER: Holy…

RESPONDENT: I was like, I can chug beers, whatever. These are hot ciders. What is the difference? Oh, vomiting. Vomiting…

INTERVIEWER: Is that what you did?

RESPONDENT: Yeah, for quite some time.

INTERVIEWER: Oh, no! Hadn’t you been drinking before that?

RESPONDENT: Oh, a little bit. I drank beers and stuff. But, that night, I was just getting started. We were playing charades with the exchange students. And I was feeling pretty good because we’d just destroyed them in a round in which they thought that they couldn’t possibly win. They’d given Oliver, our friend, Wuthering Heights, so I kind of thought, “Is he going to do Wuthering Heights?” And, so quickly, so immediately he just turns in profile, mimes his reading a book, sits down as he is kind of squattering, and touches his butt, and goes – and we were like, “Wuthering Heights!” And the students flipped their shit. They’re like, “How in the hell did you…?” [00:01:08]

INTERVIEWER: [Chuckles]

RESPONDENT: …They didn’t realize the problem is [ph] they just get them memorized. [Chuckles] That was just – [chuckles] it was an in joke with Oliver. He hated a problem [ph] so much. Regardless anyhow, so – but yesterday, I went to Eugene’s [ph] for Sunday – Sunday at Eugene’s is a thing, usually, for sports ball, right now for sports puck [ph] next week for Sports Super Bowl. Nobody cares about Sports Bounce, a stupid sport. But – I’m going to ignore this call real quick. [Pauses] It is someone I don’t recognize.

INTERVIEWER: That is good.

RESPONDENT: Oh, it is my pharmacist. They can leave a message. So [pauses] – oh, God, [whispers] coffee is so good for you. [inaudible at 00:02:03]… [00:02:04]

So, in any case, Eugene’s knows how to make Manhattans, which is bourbon and sweet vermouth, and it is actually bitters, just gives them extra flavor. And he has been getting real good at it, and he uses whiskey stones, those little rocks in the freezer [inaudible at 00:02:22]…

INTERVIEWER: I see [ph], yeah.

RESPONDENT: I had three of those motherfuckers yesterday over the course of ten hours, plus smoking weed over every hour and a half on the front porch. And so I’m mixing this thing – we’re mixing heavy alcohol with anti-regurgitant, and I remember thinking to myself, “This is how people die of alcohol poisoning. A pile of people smoke weed and drink a lot and, because the weed is an anti-regurgitant, you get poisons, and your body doesn’t know how to throw it up anymore.

INTERVIEWER: Oh, right. Yeah.

RESPONDENT: So I’m like, “Well, hey, whatever. I’m a pro. I can do this.” And I was pretty drunk. [00:03:02]

I was pretty drunk and a little high. And I get back to my place and, long story short, I spent two hours just walking around my bottom floor, just like to work things through my system and just drinking water, like glass of this size, like as – as thick around as this is all the way down – chugging water, chugging water. And after three heavy ones of those, I still did not use the bathroom like, “Yeah, I’m pretty dehydrated.” I had more and more water. And, on top of that, some lithium, some Lamictal [ph] and Klonopin, and then a Prilosec. I was like, “So many chemicals in my body right now, so many chemicals in my body.”

INTERVIEWER: Oh.

RESPONDENT: And my dog was in my bed, and I came upstairs. He was like, “Are we going to go to bed now?” because he is in teddy bear mode at this point. [00:04:00]

We [inaudible at 00:04:01] And so we get in the bed. So I pull the covers up, turn off the one lamp. He knows, when the bed lamp goes off, it is like – I usually make the bed lamp and the other lamp. When the other lamp goes off and only the bed lamp remains, he knows it is time that we’re going to bed. So he is like, “OK,” so great. I turn off the light, throw my arm over him, pull him in, teddy bear mode, and we fall asleep. I wake up, still alive, so that is good. [Pauses] But at 2 a.m. in the morning, I’m sitting there, like, “This is important information.” I can look at myself in the mirror and I look like shit. And, clearly, I mean, I haven’t done anything with myself this morning. I just kind of woke up and was like, “Oh, shit, I need to get to Logan’s [ph] and probably fucking get up.” And my dogs are, “Are we getting up?” And I’m like, “Yeah, kind of, you’re just going to hang out, though. I’ll be back.” [00:05:03]

And I had a rough weekend, though.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I got your message.

RESPONDENT: Yeah, I left a message. That is the entirety of the message. Right?

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: Well – so here is the thing. So I’m thinking about killing myself, and I’m just thinking about it. Right? And I am making plans, yes, but I was thinking through plans. Right?

INTERVIEWER: Mm-hmm?

RESPONDENT: I feel at this point is that there is actually nobody I can talk to.

INTERVIEWER: Hmm…

RESPONDENT: All right? Even you, even you, because you might tell Carla, and then Carla might…

INTERVIEWER: Oh.

RESPONDENT: …I don’t know – maybe make me take more pills, and [pauses] I don’t really want more pills. I don’t know that this level of pills is making any noticeable difference. I mean, the lower as I go, these periods are farther and farther apart, and they last less and less time. I’m like, “OK, that is great.” I wish I could just take one of them. Give me 600 of lithium a day or 900 lithium a day, or whatever, just don’t make me swallow this fucking Lamictal anymore. [00:06:07]

INTERVIEWER: Mm.

RESPONDENT: That is my biggest problem – the Lamictal – is that it is fucking impossible to swallow them.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah, right. You’re telling me [ph].

RESPONDENT: Yeah, a really overt [ph] consciousness of the inside of my throat, to expand it as I try to swallow that. And, even then, it is not perfect right now.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah, they just haven’t been able to make a decent…

RESPONDENT: They’re shield-shaped and they’re dry, and it is thick. You know?

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: And I have this pill crusher now so I can crush them up. But one lab guy [ph] is like, “You can’t crush them up without [inaudible at 00:06:40].” I’m like, “Of course you can. Your chemical is throughout the pill.”

INTERVIEWER: Oh.

RESPONDENT: It is like there is no reason why…

INTERVIEWER: Well, yeah, some of them you can’t, some of them you can.

RESPONDENT: Yeah.

INTERVIEWER: Or, sometimes, they’re like they change the potency.

RESPONDENT: That is interesting.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: So, yeah, I’m like, “What the fuck,” because they’re disgusting. I know they come in chewables, but I have to get Carla to [pauses] prescribe chewables and see if my insurance covers chewables. [00:07:11]

This is really awful. [Clears throat]

INTERVIEWER: Yeah, and you don’t want more – as you say, you don’t want more pills.

RESPONDENT: I don’t want more pills, man. I swallow too many pills every day. And [pauses] – yeah, I don’t know. [Clears throat] And nothing stops it, completely. There is no, “You’re cured.” Right?

INTERVIEWER: Mm…

RESPONDENT: That is the thing – there is no, “You’re cured.” It is like you’re managed. You’re managed.

INTERVIEWER: Well, I think, too, that – it is not like you feel – you’re going through a time right now that now pill is going to cure, which is the feelings that you’ve had about unemployment.

RESPONDENT: Yeah. [00:08:00]

INTERVIEWER: It has been really a soul killer.

RESPONDENT: Yeah! That is [chuckles] – well, that is what the essayist called, “Unemployment and the crushing of one’s soul.”

INTERVIEWER: Yeah, soul crusher. [inaudible at 00:08:12]

RESPONDENT: Yeah.

INTERVIEWER: FYI – one of the hardest experiences for, I think, men – adult men is unemployment; it just is.

RESPONDENT: Because we have no value.

INTERVIEWER: Well, it is like, [chuckles] – what? – we can’t make kids. Can the babies…?

RESPONDENT: Well, I don’t want any kids. It is fucking useless. Do you have kids?

INTERVIEWER: I don’t, no.

RESPONDENT: You’re not even married or anything.

INTERVIEWER: Nuh-uh.

RESPONDENT: Right. Yeah, good for you, man. Good for you.

INTERVIEWER: [Chuckles] Is it?

RESPONDENT: Well, [chuckles] I don’t know. That is up to you, but if you want kids – I don’t know – [inaudible at 00:08:47].

So I was thinking about…

INTERVIEWER: [Chuckles] That is true, yeah.

RESPONDENT: That is true. This thing came up about a sperm bank. The fucking Facebook ad is like, “Hey, do you want to be a sperm donor?” I’m like, well, one, no, that would be wildly irresponsible, just putting thousands – that you can put millions and millions of coin flips out there and just see which kids get bipolar and which ones don’t. [00:09:05]

That is just what a friend did. It is a 50/50 chance that you share bipolar with your kid.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah, that is pretty high.

RESPONDENT: Yeah, it is pretty high. And...

INTERVIEWER: It is outright 50/50, though. Huh?

RESPONDENT: That is just what I’ve read. I [inaudible at 00:09:24]…

But we were watching True Detective last night. You’ve heard of this show. It is a new HBO show.

INTERVIEWER: Oh, yeah.

RESPONDENT: Woody Harrelson and Matthew McConaughey.

INTERVIEWER: Mm-hmm.

RESPONDENT: This is Matthew McConaughey’s best and perhaps only work. Right? He is actually, really in a character. And I wasn’t aware he was capable of this sort of thing, because he is very rarely called upon to be in another other than shirtless and [imitating Texan accent], “Awright, awright.” That is like the majority of his…

INTERVIEWER: Did you see Dallas Buyers Club?

RESPONDENT: What is that? [00:10:00]

INTERVIEWER: Have you seen Dallas Buyers Club?

RESPONDENT: No.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah, you should.

RESPONDENT: Is it really good?

INTERVIEWER: Yeah, it is really – he is something.

RESPONDENT: I should check that out, then. Yeah, I – but I liked it a lot. But his character has said so many things I say in this office. And Darcy is like, “You really like this show. You really like this show.”

INTERVIEWER: And you say it here [ph].

RESPONDENT: Yeah, and I say, in general, [inaudible at 00:10:22]. He starts talking about the irresponsibility of having children, like you pull someone out of non-existence and throw them into this thresher. He is going, “Blah-blah-blah-blah, and the only reason I’m still here is because I lack the constitution for suicide.” And I’m like, “If I had a journal, he would be reading from it!” Ah, amazing, wonderful lines. It is almost like this guy – like, I love him so much.

INTERVIEWER: True Detective – how many episodes is that?

RESPONDENT: Three in. I watched all three yesterday.

INTERVIEWER: [Chuckles]

RESPONDENT: So, great – in my room [ph] while I was drinking Manhattans and smoking weed [ph]. It was a beautiful experience. [00:11:00]

INTERVIEWER: What is the line? “Throw then into a thresher?”

RESPONDENT: Yeah, it is a – “Pluck something out of non-existence…”

INTERVIEWER: Non-existence?

RESPONDENT: “And throw it into this thresher.”

INTERVIEWER: “This thresher” – wow.

RESPONDENT: Yeah.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah, what a description.

RESPONDENT: Yeah, indeed. So well put. And, again, like I said, if I kept a diary, they would have stolen it.

INTERVIEWER: Huh, yeah.

RESPONDENT: And I’d be suing them right now for my diary. [Chuckles] I have my – my life is littered with diaries, with two or three entries. And I’ve tried to keep journals; I just lose interest very quickly.

INTERVIEWER: Ah, and you start a new one?

RESPONDENT: Yeah. I’m like, “Aha!” I still have my very first journal. It is my Jedi journal. It has got a Yoda on the front. I got it when I was a kid. And I think I wrote a couple of things in there and did some scribbles. And then, like three years later, I wrote one more entry.

INTERVIEWER: Huh.

RESPONDENT: Yeah, it sort of goes – but my uncle has kept extensive journals, which I will sift through after he dies. [00:12:09]

INTERVIEWER: And your father.

RESPONDENT: He kept a number of journals – yeah but much in the same way I did. He has these giant notebooks with maybe ten, 20 pages filled out.

INTERVIEWER: Hmm.

RESPONDENT: Yeah, and that is what all of his journals are like.

INTERVIEWER: And then stops and starts a new one.

RESPONDENT: Yeah, it is the same exact pattern. And [pauses][sighs] still, it can be pretty powerful. Like pretty powerful to read through the memories of dead people, [pauses] and by, so doing, you get that understanding for who they were. I told that to – I mean, I was told this in the past by Adam [ph]. He was texting one day, when you still had the office down the way, [inaudible at 00:12:54] over there, and he is like, “I’m really, actually upset.” [00:13:00]

I go, “What is going on?” He is like, “I just found out my father has prostate cancer.” If had known then what I know now, I would’ve been like, “Look, don’t worry about that. He can live with prostate cancer, basically, your entire life. It doesn’t kill you. They don’t even really test for it anymore.” And, even in hospice, Ginny [ph] was like, “Yeah, the doctors scoff at prostate cancer. They know something will kill you first – something else will always kill you first.” So [pauses] I guess, at stage three, they might operate if you’re young enough, and it is like, “No, other things are currently killing you.” But in stage one and two, if they operate, they just reduced your quality of life for no reason. So – but, at the time, he was worried about his father being dead and how that would affect him. [00:13:54]

I’m like, “Someone told me once what is very important is that, after my father died” – since he was dying at the time – “I would get to know him better as I got older, and I didn’t understand that. I said, when he first told me, I completely didn’t know what he meant.” I said, “But then, as I did get older, and I started to deal with the challenges that one does at different points in one’s life, I better understood the choices he made and the pressures he was under when he made those choices, and the context, in many ways. And so, in that way, I did begin to better understand him.”

INTERVIEWER: Mm…

RESPONDENT: I know the journals question [ph]. And they [ph] actually come from Adam a great deal, so that is good. That is good.

INTERVIEWER: Mm.

RESPONDENT: You almost get to know them better. [Pauses] I’ve got this sort of cousin – I mean, genetically, he is a cousin, so [sniffs, exhales] – the most tenuous link… [00:15:04]

He – his name is – are you recording this?

INTERVIEWER: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it is by your jacket [ph].

RESPONDENT: OK, cool. [Pauses] [clears throat] His name is Adam. And [pauses] he was the son of – I hate to say the “illegitimate” son; that is a ridiculous word – right? He was the son of my Aunt Patty, on my mother’s side, the youngest of the siblings there. [Pauses] And his father was out [inaudible at 00:15:40], like she met him at a bar; she got pregnant; she never really saw the father but once or twice, then he was gone forever. And so, when she had this child who – a rambunctious little bastard. [00:15:58]

As he got older, I didn’t really like him. There was always something off about him. And he went to live with his grandmother and grandfather, and my psychotic grandmother and grandfather let all that happen. And he was raised by them because my Aunt Patty was an alcoholic and incapable of raising a child. [Clears throat] Now, my Aunt Patty is not my grandfather’s daughter. OK?

INTERVIEWER: Oh.

RESPONDENT: Yeah, so my grandmother had an affair at one point and became pregnant, and that is why [inaudible at 00:16:40]. And then…

INTERVIEWER: So your grandfather raised him?

RESPONDENT: Yep.

INTERVIEWER: [inaudible at 00:16:45] [Loud noise]

RESPONDENT: Yeah, he sure did. He sure did. It is the unspoken thing. Right? I feel like, “Clearly, this isn’t my child. It has no genetic resemblance to the side.” And the Pope side’s genetic resemblance is very strong. [00:16:59]

INTERVIEWER: Uh-huh.

RESPONDENT: That is what this is not my uncle’s son [ph].

INTERVIEWER: You got it.

RESPONDENT: Oh, yeah. My uncles and I are all [inaudible at 17:04]. We got some of my father’s stuff, as well, but the Pope build is – this is the Pope build.

INTERVIEWER: Is that right?

RESPONDENT: And the nose – the Pope nose, and the finesses. My father looks like me except wider, in terms of this part of his face.

INTERVIEWER: Tell me – your grandparents were [].

RESPONDENT: Yeah, and so – but, regardless, so this kid Adam is barely related to me. Right?

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: He shares very little DNA.

INTERVIEWER: Oh, right.

RESPONDENT: The only DNA he shares, or whatever, we both got from our grandmother.

INTERVIEWER: The grandmother – right.

RESPONDENT: So [pauses] – and that is tenuous, at best. He looks nothing like any of the rest of us. He looks very much like his father, we assume, as he looks nothing like his mother. So…

INTERVIEWER: Mm-hmm.

RESPONDENT: And he grew up in a house with a psychotic. And he is not smart like I am, because the brains don’t come from that side. [00:19:04]

That is not a joke about those people, but they honestly didn’t come from that side of the family; the brains came from my grandfather. And not all of the kids got the genius gene. You know? But a lot of them got the bipolar gene, so… [pauses]

INTERVIEWER: [inaudible at 00:19:22]

RESPONDENT: Uh – yeah, so. [Pauses] But he reaches out every now and then. He is like, “Hey, man. What’s going on?” But whenever I talk to him, he is really sketchy. He always wants to know, “What’s your address?” So I gave him a fake address. I was like, “Fuck it. I don’t care.” He reached out to me recently. He was like, “Hey, man, will you e-mail me sometime?” I’m like, no, I’m not going to because I don’t want a relationship. Right? I’ve cut that side of the family out for reasons – good reasons. [00:20:02]

INTERVIEWER: Mm-hmm.

RESPONDENT: You know? And I don’t want to drag his crap into my life. [Pauses]

INTERVIEWER: But that son will bang on the door every once in a while.

RESPONDENT: Every now and again, every now and again. But…

INTERVIEWER: And your mom, too, will get – she still texts once in a while. Right?

RESPONDENT: Oh, yeah, she texts a lot. I haven’t finished the entire thing. It was – she’d been learning about narcissism and dissociative disorder, and how she thinks her narcissistic mother may have passed on the stuff to her. But, yeah, actually, because I’m curious now, it is right here. Let’s just dissect this real quick while we have a moment. Blippety-bloppity-bloo – text messages. [Scats to self] All those people I know – Mom! There we go. [00:20:59]

Wow, Jesus Christ! This is longer than – OK, let me read. I’ll just add punctuation where necessary: “Fred, I have been learning about narcissism and codependency online, at YouTube.” OK. “I realize how my mother’s narcissism and codependency set me up and damaged me so that I went on to repeat some of her mistakes. Like you, I wondered if I should ever have children of my own. I feel terrible to realize how my need for being a parent had caused me to be emotionally incestuous with you and Bridget.” Wow, that is an amazing revelation. “No wonder you have both loved me and hated me.” Mostly hated you; no one loved you. “I don’t blame you. I want more than anything to erase the damage or to simply be a true mother to you and Bridget now. Kevin and I have considered [ph] problems. I know part of the answer is not to expect you to be perfect but for my love to be there for you. Also, I should not involve you in my personal life, [speeds up speech to incoherence] with my husband or friend that I may be dating [ph], etcetera. I am not to look to you as my partner or confidante. I commit to being your mother and being a mature adult. I ask your forgiveness for all pain I have caused you, though I hope you realize it was, for the most part, done unconsciously and out of extreme confusion about how to parent you both.” [00:22:01]

“Although, I know you have the right to be angry, also know that I have the right to be extremely respect [ph]. I thank you for thinking of me. Merry Christmas, Fred.” I did say “Happy Christmas.” “I wish you the best this new year and pray for you and Ginny often. Happy New Year to both of you. Love, Mom.” That is her most together text I’ve ever seen.

INTERVIEWER: Mm.

RESPONDENT: Amazing.

INTERVIEWER: Hm.

RESPONDENT: [Exhales]

INTERVIEWER: With some – some introspection.

RESPONDENT: Yeah!

INTERVIEWER: Or at least talking…

RESPONDENT: But – but it is still about how we should treat her.

INTERVIEWER: Ah, ah! Right.

RESPONDENT: Right? You know? It is still about – about that.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah. “You forgive me…”

RESPONDENT: Yeah. “You forgive me and treat me with respect.”

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: “And I realize I did this thing but it wasn’t my fault.”

INTERVIEWER: Yeah, some other thoughts.

RESPONDENT: And all of it wasn’t her fault. You know, she was just an idiot.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah. But, no, it is…

RESPONDENT: Yeah. [Pauses] [00:23:00]

Yeah, [pauses]…

INTERVIEWER: Yeah, I mean, dissociative identity is…

RESPONDENT: But to hear her say “emotionally incestuous” out loud is amazing.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah!

RESPONDENT: Yeah.

INTERVIEWER: What did she – what do you…?

RESPONDENT: Just to – for her to be aware of that is incredible. So… [pauses]

INTERVIEWER: Yeah, the way in which she used you and Bridget…

RESPONDENT: Yeah, but at the same time, it is like that scene I wrote – “Nothing to forgive, nothing to be angry about. There is no object of my rage. There is simply announced [ph] more mental illness riding on the back of a terribly abused child.” [Pauses] Pity I texted her “Merry Christmas” out of pity. I told Bridget, “Don’t worry. I took care of it. I took the bullet this year.” I’ll take the bullet every year. That’s fine. [00:24:02]

INTERVIEWER: Mm-hmm.

RESPONDENT: I need to get a job again so we’re rich enough to make sure I can pay to put her in some home somewhere, and so forth.

INTERVIEWER: Hm…

RESPONDENT: Um…

INTERVIEWER: You’d want to do that?

RESPONDENT: Well, yeah. I mean, otherwise, the option is she has to live with one of us.

INTERVIEWER: Oh.

RESPONDENT: Or just some state home…

INTERVIEWER: Or the State home?

RESPONDENT: …Which I don’t really want to do that anyway. It seems unfortunate. And, again, if you have the capability to stop that from happening and let it happen, then you’ve done it to someone; it is the same thing. It is the lack of action and it is just as bad. [Pauses] Yeah, so that’d be a hoot.

INTERVIEWER: If you just let it happen, if she was just to…

RESPONDENT: Yeah, it was like, “Oh, you can just send her to some state home somewhere until she dies.”

INTERVIEWER: Mm-hmm.

RESPONDENT: And who knows when that will be? The Popes are long-lived. [00:25:01]

INTERVIEWER: How old is she?

RESPONDENT: Well, she is 30 years older than my sister. My sister is two years younger than I am. She is 65. She has got a ways. She has got a ways. And the Popes – well, we’ll see. [Pauses] The Pope blood is strong. They live a long time despite – [pauses] my grandfather outlived my grandmother by about two months, as is the way. They were both deep into their eighties. She’d gone full-on dementia. She’d been slipping slowly into it for years. My grandfather – well, he may have not have smoked – lived in a home, whereas she smoked two cigarettes a day. So he’d been living as a second-hand smoker his entire life. [00:26:00]

[Pauses] He never fully recovered from storming the beach. [Pauses] Yeah. My mom tried to make him talk about it at Thanksgiving Day one time, and it was clearly making him very upset. And I was like, “Mom, I don’t think Grandpa wants to talk about this right now.” And she was like, “No, it is important for old people to share their stories; it makes them feel better.” And I was like, “Look at him, Mom [ph].” I’m so sorry. What can I say about her? You know? And once I figured out how he did it, my mother and his wife are his and-and-and-and-and-and [ph] on both sides of him, trigger-trigger-trigger-trigger-trigger-trigger [ph]. And, finally, he says, “All I ask is that I eat in peace.”

INTERVIEWER: Mmm…

RESPONDENT: That is it. “When I eat, I eat in peace. That is the only thing I want.” [00:27:02]

INTERVIEWER: Hmph.

RESPONDENT: He liked me. He liked me as a grown man. He thought I was important. [Pauses]

INTERVIEWER: How often did you see him?

RESPONDENT: Very rarely, very rarely.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah?

RESPONDENT: Yeah. In my adult life, I spoke to him on the phone and lost about five minutes. I saw him twice – three times, three times, each time for not more than a meal. There was Easter, there was Thanksgiving, and there was one of my mom’s weddings. Those are weddings, so he just kind of showed up, and they were in a church and hanging out, through the wedding reception more than anything else.

INTERVIEWER: He went to one of the [inaudible at 00:27:59]? [00:28:00]

RESPONDENT: Well, yeah. And they all look exactly the same. They’re all built on – there is a set variety of floor plans that the Church has built in. Yeah, it was just the same as the one we’d grown up going to, so it was easy to find your way around. [Chuckles] It is like, “Yeah, I know where everything is. Don’t worry.” Well, it was like, “Where is the bathroom in this place?” “Ah, it is over this way. I’ll show you.” It is like, “How do you know?” It is like, “Because they’re all exactly the same.” They built that in stages. But, regardless, these were his people.

INTERVIEWER: Hm.

RESPONDENT: Yeah, I know my grandfather stormed the beach. He described the opening scene of Saving Private Ryan pretty accurately. He was one of the first up and over the hill. [Pauses] The first thing he saw when he came around the corner was a Nazi officer, whom he just, on reflexes, shot dead with his rifle. He took his Luger and shot more people. [00:29:04]

INTERVIEWER: Mm.

RESPONDENT: I think he may have had some medals earned with that. I don’t know. But he spent nights in trenches, with shells going off all around him. He trembled for the rest of his life. PTSD…

INTERVIEWER: Chhh, yeah.

RESPONDENT: They used to call it shell shock back then.

INTERVIEWER: [inaudible at 00:29:25]

RESPONDENT: Yeah. Yeah, we called it shell shock back then.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah, that is how they learned, on all that stuff, about trauma, on those guys, the war veterans.

RESPONDENT: Yep. So they…

INTERVIEWER: They got them by the thresher.

RESPONDENT: Yeah, seriously. That is [inaudible at 00:29:40] – black scenarios [ph]. That is also Pepper [ph], yeah. Yeah, [pauses] I didn’t know that I was going to talk about him. I was – I took a tiny screwdriver I had, and I was pushing it against my carotid just to see what that felt like, like how much pressure could I put there before pain would set in. [00:30:05]

There wasn’t really any pain. [Pauses] But I was – at the same time, I could see how easy it would be to puncture this [pauses] – but again, my thought with suicide is that you’re probably going to fail, probably going to fail. [Pauses] Poverty is bullshit, by the way.

INTERVIEWER: What was Friday like? What – tell me the mood Friday.

RESPONDENT: I don’t remember. [Pauses] Sss-sad. Empty. Wanting to die. [00:31:00]

[Pauses] Isolated. [Pauses] I remember feeling very isolated. I was like, “I can’t put this on Facebook, because that is forever.”

INTERVIEWER: Hm.

RESPONDENT: I can’t talk to Ginny. I can’t talk to Charles or Victor. [Pauses] Eugene is at work. I don’t want to talk to Eugene about this stuff, anyway. [Pauses] My sister – maybe, but I fear sending her into a depressing spiral.

INTERVIEWER: Hm.

RESPONDENT: She has got 4.66 bar kids [ph] right now, so… [00:32:01]

[Pauses]

INTERVIEWER: [Whispers] Yeah. Sadness. Sad, isolated, lonely...?

RESPONDENT: Yeah, no one to talk to about it, no one to talk to about it. Look at me. I’m not even here. I called you and I’m like, “I can’t leave anything [ph] to go here. What if Carl talks to Carla later?” And Carla is like, “Oh, well, now we’ll have to give you super, mega smack-around a vitamin, or whatever.” I don’t want that. [Pauses] I don’t think I want a life where I just have to constantly take a shit-ton of pills. You know? So…

INTERVIEWER: Yeah, uh-huh.

RESPONDENT: Yeah. You know? So what do we do? And just don’t want that. So we’ll see. [Sighs] [00:33:00]

INTERVIEWER: Maybe – can you tell me a bit about, though, what – “sad” – what were you sad about? What were you…?

RESPONDENT: Just how I was out of happiness.

INTERVIEWER: Mm-hmm.

RESPONDENT: It is sort of saying how [inaudible at 00:33:16]. It was like – Evelyn [ph] was like, “OK, great, if I had some weed I can, I could go up again.”

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: So, at the same time, I kind of hope that, if I have weed and I smoke all the weed, I have, possibly, an interview coming up, possibly two interviews. You know? And [pauses]…

INTERVIEWER: Yeah, and then if you don’t, the thresher. It is…

RESPONDENT: The thresher yeah, exactly. Do I go down or do I go up?

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: Who wants to see the mix date [ph] everyone talks about? Ah, [pauses] what is that even like? And I think I experience it time to time. You know? [00:34:02]

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: But [pauses] I still don’t know who to talk to. I almost called the Suicide Hotline. I was like, these are all Christian-based. I’m not going to call and talk to a fucking Christian. They’ve already failed. [Chuckles] They’ve already failed at life. Poisoned poisoned by faith.

INTERVIEWER: Where are you at today? What are you feeling today?

RESPONDENT: Ah, I’m feeling a little wrecked from having partied too hard.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: And I don’t know and I can’t predict what it is going to be like. I’m going to go home. [Pauses] I’ll tell you I’m going to be – I’m going to go home. I’m going to order my comfort food. I’m going to order a small cheese pizza with black olives, peppers, and – God forgive me – [inaudible at 00:34:57] chicken, because it all tastes too good together. [00:35:01]

I’ve eaten one small pizza and one to go with a big bunch of soda, and it is awful for me, but I just feel better.

INTERVIEWER: Mm.

RESPONDENT: I’ll do that and sit in the dark. Ginny came on Friday because she was going to go to Ursula’s, to hang out. And she knew I was feeling down. I’m just like, “I’m feeling down.” And she comes home. I’m like, “When are you going to Ursula’s?” She is like, “Oh, no, I’m not. I’m just going to stay here tonight.” I’m like, “Why the fuck are you staying here tonight?” And she was like, “Because you need me.” I’m like, “I don’t fucking need you! This is why I can’t talk to you.”

INTERVIEWER: Hm.

RESPONDENT: Right? I was like, “When I tell you anything, you drop everything to accommodate me. I fucking hate that.” I’m like, “I had a plan – right? – you were going to go to Ursula’s. I was going to order a pizza, sit in the dark, and watch World War Z, and that was what I was going to do right? like, put a hood over my head and blankets around me, and just eat fucking pizza and watch this shitty movie. That was my plan.” [00:36:06]

INTERVIEWER: Yeah, that really pissed you off or…?

RESPONDENT: Yeah! And I was like…

INTERVIEWER: Do you want to tell me what the what – what…?

RESPONDENT: Because of – because it is stupid, because she will always drop anything at the slightest hint that I’m sad or depressed.

INTERVIEWER: Mm-hmm.

RESPONDENT: And I told her, “This makes it worse. It makes it worse.”

INTERVIEWER: Mm.

RESPONDENT: Right? I was just like, “Don’t ever, ever cancel your plans because you think I might be sad. Do not do that. I find that insulting.”

INTERVIEWER: Mm. Yeah? What – tell…

RESPONDENT: Yeah, oh, completely. It is because it is selfish. It is just – I mean, it is two things – it was, one, like, “No, no, no, I will be the martyr. I’ll fall on my sword and cancel all my plans just to be this thing.”

INTERVIEWER: Mm.

RESPONDENT: And, at the same time, it was like, “Oh, so I’m the crazy person you need to accommodate.”

INTERVIEWER: Ow, OK. OK, I got it.

RESPONDENT: I was like, “I am perfectly capable of being crazy by myself.” Right? [00:37:02]

INTERVIEWER: Oh. Yeah, right.

RESPONDENT: “I don’t need you to change your shit, as if it is somehow going to fix any of this.”

INTERVIEWER: I see.

RESPONDENT: “What would you do? What do you think your presence here is going to do?” And the answer is, “Nothing.”

INTERVIEWER: In some ways, it is like a way you end up feeling like the sick one or the…?

RESPONDENT: Yes, exactly that! I’m not. How fucking dare you treat me like an invalid.

INTERVIEWER: Mm, mm. [Sighs]

RESPONDENT: You know? I am just insane; that is just the problem. Right? And we can’t just change everything because of how I am. Right? I told her – so she left. She left. She went to see Ursula. “Great. Go. See her. Pretend everything is fine and go and see your friend. All right?” And so she did. She stayed out late and she came back late. And I was like, “That is fantastic. Great.”

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: “Do you feel any better?” “No, I don’t feel any better. I wasn’t going to feel any better.”

INTERVIEWER: Uh-huh.

RESPONDENT: I ate a pizza and watched a movie, and that was nice.

INTERVIEWER: Uh-huh.

RESPONDENT: You know. [Pauses] And she helped me get into bed, under the covers where it was warm and dark. And she [inaudible at 00:38:17] with me. I went to bed, and it was nice. It was really nice.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah. So some of the – sense of – if you talk about suicidality, it is like more of like what people are going to think. It is more of a sense of this [inaudible at 00:38:34]…

[Crosstalk]

RESPONDENT: Yeah, are they going to be able to fucking handle it? Because everyone just fucking crumbles under this. Right? It is like, “Ah, I’ve been researching ways to kill myself. I’m thinking about it because that makes me feel better about how sad I am.” And people are, “Ohhh, [wails] – whooooaaal” and freak out. I am so much better about this. When people are like, “I’m thinking about killing myself,” I get it. “How are you – how are you thinking of doing that?” [00:39:03]

I feel like, “Oh, OK, we probably don’t want to try it that way. That has a very low percent a chance of working. No.” I’m very open about that sort of thing. “Listen, this is your deal. This is the thresher. If you don’t want to be in the thresher anymore, I have no, no ethical stance to stop you.” Right?

INTERVIEWER: Mm.

RESPONDENT: “It is amoral!” “Excuse me. What?” No, I don’t think we’re – I don’t think we’re inborn with some sort of knowledge that it is wrong to kill ourselves. We have a will to survive, certainly. This is just your genes. That is just the engine of this molecular machine that wants to pass on its genes. Right? Can you be stronger than the machine? That is what suicide is about – can you be stronger than this meat, than this body you ride around in? That is what suicide is about – can you be strong enough to do it? [00:40:03]

Not many people can. And I applaud them when they do. I told you about my friend – Isaac Vaughn right? – years and years ago? He’d always been depressed. He’d probably get medication and therapy, but he wasn’t exposed to those things or didn’t have access to those things. This was back in the late ‘90s, when there was still an enormous stigma with actually going to see therapists; I think there is still some now but much less so, and I will – and I am prepared to fight anyone who challenges me, based on the fact that I go to therapy. So [pauses] – so he was always – he was a great guy. He was sweet, though, and creative, and he was funny, and he’d only see your depressive swings; yeah, it was hard to get them out of him, because you can’t get someone out of a depressive swing – right? – their chemicals are gone and then they can come back later. [00:40:58]

We all loved him, even though I punched him in the stomach once. But he was religious, and [ph] – it was years ago, in early 2000s – 2002, 2003? – 2003. A bunch of us were playing World of Warcraft, in separate places, but Charles and I were playing. And Victor was online, Lion was online – both of them – well, in any case, we were geographically distributed but we were all playing World of Warcraft. And George – or Lion, as we call him, because his penis is like a turtle, extremely small and [inaudible at 00:41:36] – but the – [chuckles] it is funny because he is [inaudible at 00:41:40]. But he logs on. He is like, “Isaac Vaughn killed himself.” And Victor shut down as he does in traumatic – as he has learned this through therapy, traumatic events – if Victor – he has 15 minutes to write down what happened. His hope is gone [ph] with the last 45 – just gone. [00:42:05]

[Pauses] I’m like, “Well, what happened?” And, apparently, he had a job lined up in a different city and an apartment lined up there, as well. And so he packed up all his stuff, put it in his car, left his old place, left his old job, and was en route to get – it was much further south when he found out that the job had fallen through and the apartment had fallen through. So now he lives in a car. Everything he owns in the world is in a car. He has no place to live and no job. He stops at a motel – a motel, he checks in, and he just takes as many pills as he can, and he died. And we had a forum [ph], a people’s reunion where we could just – just as a private forum, just for his college friends to stay in touch. This was before Facebook existed, so this is what we used. [00:43:02]

And [pauses] there was a thread on there [ph], on Isaac Vaughn. “I don’t think he is dead [ph].” And every now and then, you go back for a post and see one of the things he said, like, “Oh, shit. Wow. Look. There he is. There is a little bit of Isaac.”

INTERVIEWER: Mm, mm-hmm.

RESPONDENT: And everyone was angry in their own way, some off and on – suicide victims. And they’re like, “I’m so angry. I’m so angry.” And Ed, who loved Isaac, just went on. He was like, “And it pisses me off he had such a weakness and cowardice.” And I came back just very calmly with, “You’ve got it completely backwards. The will to survive is incredibly strong.” Right?

INTERVIEWER: Mm.

RESPONDENT: “You need real effort, determination, and strength to overcome that and kill yourself. And, really, if someone doesn’t want to be here, then who the fuck are we to tell them they have to stay?” [00:44:07]

INTERVIEWER: Mm.

RESPONDENT: And that was the end of the thread. I ran into Ed a year later, in the south, and he was like, “Hey, Fred. It is OK, and fuck you for being right.” I was like, “I know.” It hurts but that is honest. We grieve. Isaac doesn’t hurt anymore. I’m happy for Isaac because Isaac doesn’t hurt anymore.

INTERVIEWER: Mm.

RESPONDENT: He didn’t want to be here. And it hurt him to be here. I mean, who the fuck would we be to make him stay? It is like, “I realize your life is suffering and pain, but we prefer that you still exist.” Sure, maybe we’d prefer it. Who knows what Isaac would have gone on to have done, what sort of potential that was there? [00:45:05]

But, really, nothing matters because he killed himself. And I support his choice to have killed himself. I will defend to the death his right to kill himself. [Pauses] Not everybody wants to be here, and I have no right [ph] to make them stay. [Pauses]

INTERVIEWER: Well, I think that is what it is – yeah, I think – for you, it is really much more of a getting out of the goddamn thresher.

RESPONDENT: Yeah, yeah.

INTERVIEWER: How do you get out of the thresher?

RESPONDENT: I want to know there is a way out of the thresher.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah!

RESPONDENT: And it makes me feel worse. I heard about people who order – terminally ill people who order exit kits most often don’t use them. They just feel so much better… [00:46:00]

INTERVIEWER: Yeah, and there is a door.

RESPONDENT: Yeah, that they can walk through whenever they want to. If it gets too much, there is a door.

INTERVIEWER: Well, yeah. Psychologically, it is like there is a sense that there is a possibility of an end.

RESPONDENT: Yeah. And Ginny cried and cried and cried because she said she would be so angry at me, because it would mean I didn’t care, and she doesn’t want to be angry at me for the rest of her life. And I tried to explain. I’m like, “It is not about you. All right?” It is not about me caring or not caring; that is not something that even figures into the equation. Suicide is when you want the pain to stop, when that is the only thing on your mind. You can’t – there is this great bit in Buffy the Vampire Slayer where people get turned into vampires, and people that you used to know and love become vampires and blah-blah-blah. [00:47:04]

And people are like, “Oh, I can’t kill him. It is such-and-so.” The line they point out, though – they’re like, “When you look at him, you’re not seeing your friend; you’re seeing what killed him.” All right?

INTERVIEWER: Hm.

RESPONDENT: Yeah. And that is the thing – when you look at [pauses] a dead friend in there probably a closed coffin or casket – you’re not seeing them; you’re seeing what killed them. [Pauses] And what killed them was something that was completely and totally in pain, and saw nothing else, and that seeing such a thing for so long that it had worn down all the various barriers that prevented one from doing such a thing. They just wanted to pain to stop. [00:48:06]

Our pain doesn’t last as long as it used to; it comes and goes as it flows. But [pauses][sighs] it is real and present…

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: …When it is. And I just want a place to be able to talk about that without setting people off. And they’d be like, “Oh, my God, please don’t kill yourself.” Jesus Christ, it is not like I’m doing this because of – because of or for you, or about you, or with any consideration of you. Right? Jesus Christ. Someone tweets the Bloggess [ph] that a friend of hers killed himself. She is like, “A friend of mine killed himself. People, we lost one to depression. Please, please remind everyone of the damage left behind when…” What a fucking stupid thing to say. And I didn’t tell her that because, obviously, she was in pain. [00:49:00]

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: Right? But, again, the suicide victim does not care about the pain left behind. It is better to say they are unaware of it; it is not even on their radar. It is not something that occurs to them. They just want the pain to stop, the thresher – [chuckles] the thresher…

INTERVIEWER: It is a wonderful – amazing amount of…

RESPONDENT: It is really – yeah, it is quite apt. Yeah.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: And I don’t want to die, but I also don’t want to sell my house and move. You know?

INTERVIEWER: Well, I think – yeah, I think there is – there is – you’ve been more and more [pauses] – I see you’ve been more and more unpacking and opening all this stuff up to me, about what the thresher is like. [00:50:03]

A lot of stuff that just goes on inside of you, day to day, and what it is like to live in…

RESPONDENT: …What it is like to live in fucking unemployment forever.

INTERVIEWER: And live in employment, too.

RESPONDENT: And having to make choices. I have to make choices of…

INTERVIEWER: Yeah, yeah.

RESPONDENT: It is like, OK, so I can smoke weed and be a little bit slower. I would be like, “Sativa blend, please.” Now, I’m just faster and clearer, and everything is better. Fantastic. What do you do? I smoke weed every day, all day long. Don’t worry. I’m still coming to work. It won’t be hard.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah. Well, and, listen, I think, when you go back to work, a lot – obviously, there is going to be an alleviation of a lot of the stuff that comes up around unemployment, but there are other things that you face, that you feel when you’re there. You were telling me once – it is playing with a fire hose [ph]. It is not… [00:50:58]

RESPONDENT: Yeah, and that is the thing – I was looking for a place where – with a guy who charges rationally.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah. Yeah, and then what the hell do you do when they’re not?

RESPONDENT: Well, right. And that is why I opened [ph] this up as a consultant position, as well, because I can be a consultant. I mean, come on, I realize I am older than you and everyone in your company, and maybe that is intimidating, so, hey, I don’t have to stick around.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: I can be your Mike Bloomberg [ph].

INTERVIEWER: Have you – what is the story? Have you heard anything?

RESPONDENT: Oh, on Thursday, he said he was passing all the stuff around to the other founders and the engineers, and he would get back to me. So that is good progress. He is actually [ph] just shuffling me off.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah? Well, you give a good pitch.

RESPONDENT: Yeah, I give a good pitch. All right, Thursday… [sighs]

INTERVIEWER: Thursday.

RESPONDENT: Nine, right?

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

RESPONDENT: Yeah. I’ve been doing this for years. Why can I not…?

INTERVIEWER: And did you start – did you go to…?

RESPONDENT: Yeah, I went to my stats [ph] thing. It was hilarious. [00:52:00]

The dude gave us the practice test. He was like, “Here is the practice test.” He was like, “You don’t actually need the book. You can do the entire course just this in this practice test.” And part of me is sad because the course is set up for us to pass; that is his intention, so we will pass the course no matter what. I’m not sure how much I’m learning by the way he is teaching it, so I will have to add my own self-directed stuff.

INTERVIEWER: It is self-directed.

RESPONDENT: So I’ll see you Thursday.

INTERVIEWER: Thursday.

END TRANSCRIPT