TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It’s far too chilly. So. Oh, God.

THERAPIST: So did you have to wait outside, or was the… was he already there?

CLIENT: On the stairs a little bit.

THERAPIST: Oh, he wasn’t here already.

CLIENT: Yeah. And then Pete showed up and we waited a little bit more, and then Josh showed up. He’s like, “You guys waiting for something?” We go, “Yeah, you’re the funny guy, Josh.” As emotionless as your face is. I saw into the smile. It’s like the first emotion I’ve seen him express.

THERAPIST: Is that right?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. There may be more to him, I don’t know, but at least in business mode there’s…

THERAPIST: He’s pretty focused or something.

CLIENT: Yeah, it seems that way. Barely acknowledges, and I think it’s a professional thing. Who knows. Who knows. I could spend some time with him and figure out what makes him work. But it’s not my job. It’s not my job. [unclear] My buddy’s health insurance is a PPO. So he can do pretty much anything, you know.

THERAPIST: Oh, this… Pete?

CLIENT: The guys who’s looking for referrals.

THERAPIST: Oh yeah. Okay, yeah. Oh yeah, right, the one you were… yeah. Okay.

CLIENT: Which is funny, because I ran into him when I went to interview with his company. Because he’d be working for me if he got hired there. It turns out his… I’m figuring out like what his problem is. Because, you know, he’s looking to get back into therapy because his fiancé left him.

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: Yeah. And he’s like, “All I do is go home and play video games till I fall asleep.” He’s like, “There has to be more to do.” He’s like, “I’m looking for like things to go do with people. He’s like, you know, “I do ice hockey, that’s all my exercise, but I’m too competitive to enjoy it.” So I’m like, “Well, yeah, okay. Good call on reaching out to everybody though.” You know. He goes, he’s like, “I don’t know a good therapist,” asking for a friend. So I engaged him with, “Okay. Well, I could find some resources for your friend, if that’s what you’d like.” You know, after a while we dropped the friend pretense, but…

THERAPIST: And is he in Georgetown?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: He works at a place with flexible hours.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Speaking of which, I had an interview.

THERAPIST: Yes?

CLIENT: Yeah. I think it went really well. They were gonna talk about me Wednesday morning stand up, but I’m not sure how many made it into the office yesterday. Considering that I’m pretty flexible, work from home policy, you know, when shit goes wrong…

THERAPIST: Oh, wow.

CLIENT: So the latest, they’ll be speaking today about me. But they made a couple of Freudian slips during the interview process. You know, sort of stuff like about, “Well, when you do this, and when you do this, then we’ll need you to do this.” The sort of stuff they talk about as if you already have the job, you know. So like the inclination is to hire me. The CEO told me, he’s like, “Just keep in mind that all salaries over $100,000 have to go past the board.” And I’m like cool about it. So they do compensation at a balance of salary versus stock. And so maybe I can game it into like $100,000, and then the rest in stock.

THERAPIST: What did you think about their stock?

CLIENT: Well, I asked them. I said, “So was your plan to sell the company?” He was like, “Well, I don’t really know.” I’m like, “Here’s the thing. Why would I take stock if you don’t want to sell the company?” He’s like, “Well, that’s a good question.” He’s a coke head, so he’s like, “If the right place came by and wanted to buy us, I’d sell immediately.” And he’s like, “At the same time, maybe that never comes along, and we’re doing really well, and all of a sudden your stock is not worth as much. And then we institute a bonus structure based on how much stock you took. So if you took a bunch of stock, it’d be a much bigger bonus.” He’s like, “Or maybe we get to the point we’re like, you know, we’re doing so well, we go to the board and like, let’s just start doing dividends off stock shares.” He’s like, “So, I mean, we’ll find a way to make the stock valuable, regardless of what we do.” So I’m like, “Okay.” [0:04:30]

THERAPIST: This was the guy that you didn’t know, you knew from your friend.

CLIENT: Right, but I met him through friends. He got to interview with a guy I used to work with, so it was fun. And like the guy who I would be the boss of is already working there. He always thought I was a good boss. He goes, I’m a god damn good boss. And one of the engineers is a guy I worked with for years as well, so.

THERAPIST: He was another guy that you worked with you were the boss of, or he worked with you?

CLIENT: He was a coder, so I worked with him.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay.

CLIENT: So that’s all fun. So the chances are good. If they decide to move forward they’re going to ask me back for a Friday game night, and play some co-op games, they’ll see how I interact socially. Which will be fine.

THERAPIST: Right up your alley.

CLIENT: Yeah, right up my alley. That’s an option too, is like we need to talk about flexibility. You know, it’s like I’ve got this college course I’m taking, it’s a few hours a week and I have to be there during working hours once a week. And as a guess, not an issue. And I was like, “Also I should be totally up front with you, there may be days where suddenly I can’t come in.” I said, “However, this has never affected my work, I’ve always gotten everything done. I don’t miss deadlines. And I’m available on e-mail and Skype and whatever, so.” He’s like, “That’s fine.” Great. This is the sign of a man who has read my stuff. You know. So. I’ve lived pretty openly about the entire thing for a while now. [0:06:25]

THERAPIST: When you say he’s read your stuff, you think he’s researched you online or something?

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, you have to. You have to do that. You’re not legally allowed to, but you have to kind of thing. You can’t look at someone… well, he can’t see my Facebook anyways, it’s only set to the super private, so. Still, but my blog is out there, you know, and there’s no secret that that exists, and stuff like that. Yeah, so you know, whatever. No more filter. No more filter. So I’m still thinking about killing myself pretty often. Yeah. I mean…

THERAPIST: Okay. Yeah, what did you…

CLIENT: I think it just again seems to be the solution to every problem. You know? Like on the way back from the interview I was alike… it was supposed to be a two-hour interview, it went three and a half hours. Which is also a good sign.

THERAPIST: But it’s a good sign for sure.

CLIENT: Yeah, people like to talk to you, you know. They like the questions that they’re asking, they like the answers, they like the questions you’re asking them. I ask good questions of people. It’s like, “Why do you like to work here?” What’s your deal? “Do you suffer from ass and desk syndrome?” You know, it’s like… And Viggo was pretty clear about that. He was like, “Nick shows up at 9:00 and leaves at 5:00. Like he never stays later than 5:00.” He’s like, “The only thing we care about is results. Like that’s… the only thing.” He’s like, “I’m here till like 8:00 every night, but that’s because I own the place. And I’ve got a lot of stuff to do.” And he was like, “I come on the weekends, but that’s what I like to do.” You know, and he’s like, “But that’s me. It’s certainly not everybody, most people aren’t here on the weekends.”

THERAPIST: Yeah, no. But the way they’re talking, they really like you.

CLIENT: I think so. Yeah, I think so. [0:08:30]

THERAPIST: It seems that way.

CLIENT: So I’ve got good hope for it. But walking back from that, I’d only eaten at noon, and I was like…It’s close to 7:00. And I’m walking home, and I’m hungry. I was thinking to myself, “I did a good job, I did a good job. Like I deserve something. I deserve something.” And so I stop in my favorite games store, and like, I deserve something. And I’m looking at these things that I want, and they’re all $80 things, and like I deserve something. I’m like, but these things are $80. You know, I’m not going to pre-reward myself, you know, for the job in case I don’t get the job, you know. I think I deserve something. And I’m looking around at everything, I’m like, I can’t justify buying any of these things.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know. Like I already have so much crap, you know. So I leave. I don’t buy anything, and I leave. And I’m walking, like I deserve something. And like we already bought a scarf today, because you’re wearing a scarf. That was $18. I’m walking, I’m like, I deserve something. And I go to Brown, take [line?] over, Ginny picks me up. I just called her when I got to Brown. And I see her pulling into the lot just as I’m walking towards it, so good timing. I got home, and I’m tired, and like I’m just exhausted, you know, from all this expenditure. You know, from being on for almost four hours. And the prep, the constant prep, and the constant prep, and the constant prep.

THERAPIST: The prep beforehand that you were doing? [0:10:30]

CLIENT: Yeah. Just the constant rehearsal of any sort of question they could ask me. And… yeah, just going through. And, you know, this whole thing. So I’m exhausted. And Ginny was like, “How are you?” “Well, I avoided spending $80 on stuff I really wanted, and I think that’s good. I just want something, I deserve something.” She was like, “What are you doing here?” I’m like… So I go home and get a pizza, and order a pizza, and eat the entire pizza. And my comfort food these days is a pizza. It’s a small, light sauce, black olives, banana peppers and chicken. So I eat that in one sitting. And it’s not really good for me. Based on the banana peppers having a bit of spice to them, that’s not a good… But I don’t care, it makes me feel better. It’s warm, it’s soft, and I eat the entire thing. And so I did. And I was just so exhausted. And I was like, “Well, you didn’t sleep last night. And you didn’t sleep the night before very many hours.” But she’s like… she’s like, “So you’re exhausted then.” And like, okay. And Wednesday was a snow day, you know, for her as well, and just didn’t sleep that night very well either.

THERAPIST: Tuesday night? [0:12:00]

CLIENT: And… Yeah, just… Over the morning I was like, “I’m gonna shovel,” and I took a shovel. And I’m like, “Wait, no, first I’m gonna eat something, and then I’m gonna go shovel.” So I ate the steak and cheese sub that I also order with the pizza every time so I can get the steak and cheese sub later. And the owner of the place drives out to deliver to my… [unclear] my order from them.

THERAPIST: Oh, you didn’t pick it up, I see, the…

CLIENT: Yeah, they bring it to me. And it’s the owner now. He drives out. And that’s great. It’s like when I used to order like from [] all the time. Now I can’t order from [] all the time, because all the stuff I love from there is really spicy. But I used to order from there a lot. It’s the one where when Ginny and I went to Lisbon for two weeks, then I ordered again, the guy’s like, “Where’d you go, man?” I was like, “Oh yeah, we were away for two weeks.” He’s like, “Oh, we thought like you didn’t like us anymore.” I was like, “No, no, I was just… I was out of the country.” He’s like, “Oh. Whew!” He’s like my delivery guy now for… After a while I didn’t even have to ask him to pick me a pack of cigarettes on the way, he just knew. And he’s like, “I got your Marbs.” “Thanks man, I appreciate that.” You know. Because they weren’t supposed to do that, but they would. And… Yeah. But…

THERAPIST: But yeah, you were feeling something, what, on the way back, the kind of the…

CLIENT: Just exhaustion, just tired. [0:14:00]

THERAPIST: Exhaustion.

CLIENT: It was like… and this is whole like I deserve something.

THERAPIST: Deserve something, yeah.

CLIENT: I did a really good job today, I deserve something.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And…

THERAPIST: And then you didn’t… Oh, well, you got the pizza.

CLIENT: I got the pizza.

THERAPIST: What was it like to be in the store and not buy anything?

CLIENT: It’s a frustrating experience. There was stuff I know I want. Or two things like I know I want these things, I want both of them. You know.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. What were they?

CLIENT: One was a war wagon. It’s a mini, it’s about this big when you build it. It’s like a mobile weapons platform being pulled by two buffalo. And it was like… there’s four different control on it, one with binoculars that has the spotter, one with a little like spray can and that moves to either side. Another guy handing shells up to the guy in the big cannon. So it’s really nicely detailed. Mostly resins, some metal. And $80. Which I could get for $60 online, you know. But… And the other one was this new co-op game for one to four players, it plays in two hours. And I love games I can play by myself because, you know, fucking nobody is around. But I was fascinated by is it’s a clocker game that proclaims to have solved the group think problem. And I’m curious how they could have done such a thing, you know. Because I have no idea how it would work. But I’m curious, I’m fascinated by it.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. [0:15:50]

CLIENT: But then yesterday I’m just like… I come back in from shoveling and I’m like, I don’t know what to do now. Because they’re not talking about me right now, so now I have wait longer to find out. So I’m stressing about that. I go upstairs, I’m like, I’ll just do something. I’ll do something up there. I’ll play Minecraft and… There is some updated Minecraft [unclear], and there’s three new types of stone that you can use to build, you know, more variations into the world, different colors and textures. And I found this huge area with lot of it, and so I put up a sign. There’s a lot of horses running in the area too, so I didn’t want like people just to come by and just like grab a bunch of my horses and stuff and take all my stones. So I put up a sign, I was like, you know, like, “I’m strip mining here until the end of February.” You know, so.

And I was sitting there and digging, and digging, and digging. I’m just getting depressed, I’m like…I’m just like, I’m digging stone in this world where only a couple people will ever see what I build. It’s like, what am I doing? Why… this is… And I keep thinking about writing more and more about these games as progress simulators.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: And then I was like, “What am I doing? What am I doing? It’s time I killed myself.” I’m sitting there looking at the screwdriver on my desk, and I’m considering pressing it up against my carotid again just to see how it feels. I’m just kinda starting at it again. And Ginny comes in, she was like, “How’s mining?” I’m like, “Ah.” She was like, “I was wondering if I could try to seduce you.” I’m like, “I don’t know. I don’t know.”

THERAPIST: Huh. [0:18:00]

CLIENT: She was like, “Are you sure?” I’m like, “I don’t know.” She just kinda pulls me into a hug. But I’m sitting, so it’s like I end up in her breasts, which is nice. And part of me’s like, “Well, this… this will actually probably make you happier, right?” You know, like sort of [overtalk].

THERAPIST: You were saying this to yourself about…

CLIENT: Yeah, that really is all the correct chemicals, you know. And I’m like, okay. Like we can try this. Let’s give it a shot. And so we go and have sex, and it was good. And I was like, yeah, this was a really good idea. I’m glad we did this, this is a good thing. At the same time I knew, like these chemicals only last so long. Like I’m gonna run out of them. You know, if I was not uptake… not re-uptaking serotonin is not like keeping it, it’s just ditching it, you know. And so for a little bit I’m fine. We go downstairs, we watch some TV, with food and whatnot. And I go back upstairs and I can’t find anything I want to do.

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: And I’m sitting in front of this computer, I’m like, I can’t find anything I want to do. And Ginny comes back to check on me, and it’s just like… and finally I’m like, “I’m going down.”

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like I’m going down again. And she was like, “I know.” She’s was like, “And it won’t last forever,” and I’m like, “Gotta remember that.” But I’m like up and down, up and down, up and down forever. Except for the occasional flat bits in between. You know.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And that’s this pattern that continues. And like I have never been more consistently thinking about killing myself then while I’ve been on lithium. You know. You know? [0:20:00]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: Like at first it was like, “Oh, lithium’s pretty good.” And I was probably just having a good couple weeks. You know. [pause] And I don’t want to fiddled with anymore, you know. I’m screaming “Fuck you” at Carla at night. You know, while I take my various pills, I’m just calling her an idiot piece of shit, you know, I’m just… I see her on Monday. I’m just like less and less impressed, you know, with psychiatry as a profession, you know. And I just can’t wait till dispensaries open up somewhere else. I’ll just go find a doctor and be like, “Listen, here’s what I need to do. I need to go to a place that will have a sativa that I can fix and I can get consistent results with.” Right. That it’ll take me up when I’m feeling down. And I will get home from work, smoke my weed two to three times before I go to bed.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I’ll wake up, I’ll go to my job. I’ll be good at it.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah, no, right, trying that to pulling your way out of those pits.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: The mountain is like… I’m like, I can get out of the pit at any time…

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: … if I smoke weed, but I know that if I don’t get the right brand it’s gonna have different side effects, you know. And it’s like…

THERAPIST: It seemed to me too, like were you feeling… what were you feeling after the interview?

CLIENT: At first I was like I did a really good job there, hence I deserve something, hence I deserve something. And I walked. I walked in the cold and the dark as I wrote, I wrote sometime today, as I wrote today on Facebook, “It occurred to me the other day while I walked through the ice and darkness that for someone who claims that Scientology refutes the practice of psychiatry, Tom Cruise does display a lot of symptoms of Bipolar 1.” You know. And… Because he does. Like we only see the ups, because that’s when he’s in public, we don’t see the downs. Because that’s when he’s working on his Thetan levels, you know, getting those down. I would be so down with Scientology if the stories of being able to teleport to level VII were true. I’d go, “Yeah, I’m in.” I don’t care how much money. [0:22:30]

THERAPIST: I’ll do it. Sign right here.

CLIENT: If I could teleport I…

THERAPIST: Yeah, that sounds good.

CLIENT: I have super powers. Yeah, I’m all right, I’m all about this. But if Scientology gave you super powers people would be like, “Check it out, you can teleport.” And everyone’s like, “I want in.” Like, all right. Three million dollars later you can teleport, no problem. But that’s not what happens. In fact, even worse stories come up, like child abuse, and like children raised in these little homes not allowed to see their parents because it’s bad for children to grow up around their parents. You know, so that won’t affect their children. And people escape from this, and malnourishment, maltreatment.

THERAPIST: Yeah, all those stories about…

CLIENT: Death threats and [overtalk].

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I forgot my wedding ring today and it’s bugging the fuck out of me.

THERAPIST: Yeah?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Well, what is it… what’s it like not to have it on?

CLIENT: It’s just that you notice it, and you’re like, “Oh fuck, Jesus.” Like it’s not… I don’t wear it at home, I just wear it when I leave the house. That’s the only time I wear it is when I’m not at home.

THERAPIST: Really? When you’re home you take it off?

CLIENT: Yeah, we both do. We’re like, “Ah, there we go,” take the ring off, you know. It’s like it’s not important, you know. It’s a symbol to everybody else.

THERAPIST: Ah, okay.

CLIENT: Like that little girl Casey in her early 20s who tries her pouty face on me. I’m like, what’s that going to do to me? How are you going to affect me with that? Like I am immune.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: I’m immune to your charms. I’d fuck her though. [0:24:00]

THERAPIST: And what’s… what is the… what about the ring… does a ring stop you from fucking her?

CLIENT: No, not really. I mean… But it is… it is a defense mechanism.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know, it’s like you can’t… like all your wiles don’t work on me.

THERAPIST: Ah.

CLIENT: You know, unless I choose to allow them to.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: You know. And it’s interesting. I’m a little envious of Eugene. Because Casey’s really into him, and like apparently like he’s allowed to like semi-cuddle with her. Because she’ll like have a blanket and then cuddle up against him. And he’ll have his hand kind of out, which is over her hand which is under the blanket. You know, so they’re fairly discrete about it, but like, you know, he’s allowed his… his cuddling with his little playmate, you know.

THERAPIST: But they’re not… they’re not dating?

CLIENT: No, Eugene’s married to Mallory.

THERAPIST: Oh. Oh, okay.

CLIENT: Yeah. And Mallory seems fine with the entire arrangement, you know.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: So… But there’s things in their marriage that like I don’t always understand. Like we’re all going to [unclear] Con, and Eugene left a bunch of liquor at his place, like, “Oh shit, I forgot to get that.” Like, “Lou, could you guys please pick that up on the way by?” And like Mallory doesn’t know if she’ll be home, so we left it on the back porch. But like it was late enough that, you know, Mallory had gone home, so ring the doorbell. She’s like, “Oh, hey, sorry.” I’m like, “Yeah, and I was gonna go to your back porch, but like I figured you were here.” She’s like, “I’ll go get it.” It’s like, “Oh, you want me to just come up?” She’s like, “No, no, my husband’s not home.” And I’m like, your husband’s not home so I can’t come up?

THERAPIST: Mm. Mm. Mm hm.

CLIENT: That’s archaic.

THERAPIST: Mm. Mm.

CLIENT: I’m like, that has…

THERAPIST: That you’re a threat… you’re a threat to the marriage or…

CLIENT: I don’t know, yeah. Like I have no idea. I guess it’s something traditional. It’s like, so you guys have some sort of…

THERAPIST: The man is a… Another man is a threat to the marriage. [0:26:00]

CLIENT: Or something, I don’t know. Like I’ve known Mallory, you know, for a long time. And I was a fucking… I gave a reading at their wedding, it was like fucking amazing, because I read well. As Ginny said, she’s like, “God damn, you turned on your sexy voice.” I’m like, “It’s the only one to use when you give a reading at a wedding.” The other guy got to go first, and that’s good. Let him. He’s not a professional. He gave his leading reading, and I was a little trembly, and it’s… you know, it’s pretty much just the words.

THERAPIST: Not a… yeah, not a delivery.

CLIENT: Yeah, no, I got up… I got a Celtic “Above you the stars, below you the stones,” that sort of thing. You know. A text which I was able to interpret, you know, to give the meaning of the text, to convey the emotion behind it and the reason they had chosen it, and why it was important to them. Like most people they wrote their own vows.

THERAPIST: You know, just to say something about the… that says something… you know, something about the last couple days and the interview, and then the afterwards of the interview really I think, you know, had this kind of… triggered this kind of neurochemical response.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: A really profound one. And…

CLIENT: Well, I was out… I was out. I’ve used it all up. You know, it’s like I needed the chemical to keep going.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: You know, I’m like… I mean, I can do that, I can become extroverted, you know.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And I can glide that. And it’s seduction, it’s the same thing. It’s like let me just take as much from you as I can.

THERAPIST: Ah. Ah.

CLIENT: You know, and I’ll feed off of that. And then once the food is gone I’m tired.

THERAPIST: They you go looking for more.

CLIENT: Yeah. [0:28:00]

THERAPIST: Like it sounded like you were trying to look for…

CLIENT: Something to keep the chemical going.

THERAPIST: To keep it going, yes, yeah.

CLIENT: This is why weed is so great.

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: It keeps the chemical going, you know.

THERAPIST: And what I get too is that without it… well, what… you know, when the interview’s over, is it kinda like you’re going like, “All right, what’s next? I need to find something that…”

CLIENT: You need to find something. Because I could feel myself going down. You know.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Huh.

CLIENT: And this is… The first bipolar piece I ever wrote I never published, but it had a lot to do with my experiences in college, you know, and my experiences after parties, you know, that I posted in my house. And, you know, people… I’ve heard people talk and things people say about me. You know, how like Fred is like this really engaged guy, and like the stories he tells, and like he’s funny and he’s active, and like wow. “I’m like, wow, [unclear] be like that all the time?” And the answer is no, because as soon as you go I’m drained.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And as soon as you go there’s nothing left to live for.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay.

CLIENT: I’ve spent.

THERAPIST: You spent…

CLIENT: You took all of it with you.

THERAPIST: Oh, wow.

CLIENT: You know, every last bit of it. Even if there’s only one person left, you know, to pay attention to me then I can reciprocate and bounce it back and forth.

THERAPIST: And what is the… what do you notice when the spent… what’s…

CLIENT: I mean, it’s just… it’s like… it’s like it sinks out of you.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And you know it’s going.

THERAPIST: Mm. It’s very bodily too?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It’s just you try to sleep. I’ll lie down on the bed and I’m…

THERAPIST: Uh huh. [0:30:00]

CLIENT: … just lying there. It’s like, I’ll try to meditate. I’ll try to make that useful. But that’s when it’s hardest. That’s when it’s hardest.

THERAPIST: Yeah, it sounds very exhausting.

CLIENT: It is exhausting, but exhausting where you can’t sleep.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: And Hank gets really worried about me. You know, he’s like… and he comes up and gets real close to my face, starts sniffing my breath and sniffing my breath. He’s like, are you sick? Like, are you diseased? That’s what dogs do when they sniff you’re breath, [unclear], they’re like, are you diseased, is there something wrong with you? So he gets up, and he’s like, what is it? Well, you’re not sick, like so what… He’s like, you’re just sad.

THERAPIST: You’re sad, yeah.

CLIENT: He gets close, cuddles in.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I’m thinking too how much you… well, as Ginny pointed out and you pointed out, there was a lot of work, a lot of preparation for this interview, a lot of kinda trying to stimulate yourself, trying to kind of keep… get ready for it.

CLIENT: Yeah, well, it’s not like I could control that. You know, like it just… I rehearse.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: That’s my…

THERAPIST: But you’re getting read. You’re trying to get ready.

CLIENT: That’s my life, is I rehearse. I’m like, here’s scenarios, how can they go? Let’s anticipate, try to predict as best possible questions they’ll ask. They alluded to the five-year question, and I laughed. And I was like, “Here’s why that’s a ridiculous question.” You know, like…

THERAPIST: Where do you see yourself in five years, is that the question?

CLIENT: Yeah. And I was like, “Here’s why it’s a ridiculous question.” It’s like because it’s impossible to tell. It’s like I can tell you what I hope to be doing in five years, you know, is working with interesting people on interesting problems, like that’s where I want to be in five years. If that’s here, that’s fantastic, if that’s somewhere else that’s where I’ll be. You know.

THERAPIST: That’s a good answer. [0:32:00]

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. And it’s like, I’ve never been fired. Except that one time in college, and that was for good cause. Yeah. So whatever. Plus I’ve left, I’ve left because I considered, you know, the choice to do so over time. Once I’ve thought my work was done there that’s when I left. The last place I left, they even offered me a better position, you know, before I left. And I turned it down, it wasn’t the place for me. So but I left them in a better place than when I got there. I set up a team that runs on its own. I was sold a bill of goods that we would never crunch, and they’ve been crunching since I left. So I made good choices there. [pause]

The great news, and Viggo was like, “Yeah, it’s like the only thing we don’t really know is like when we would bring you on, you know, in terms of like when [inaudible].” I’m like, okay, that’s actually an excellent thing. If the only thing you don’t know is when you would bring me on, you’ve pretty much already made the choice to hire me, right. Which hopefully they will do.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Did you feel at the end of it encouraged, or not, or…

CLIENT: I did feel encouraged. Like everyone there was cool, and they liked me, and I liked them. You know, Viggo was like, he’s like, “We’re one of those rare independent game companies where everyone’s in their 30s.” He’s like, “I just turned 30.” He was like, “You usually start, it’s a bunch of young guys, you know, just like… He’s like, “But…” He’s like, “I’ve done this, I’ve worked at [], you know, I’ve seen how it works or how it fails to work.” And we all talked about crunch a bit. And they’re like, ‘We’ve crunched, but never for more than two weeks at a time.” And I’m like, “Well, that’s good, because it’s incredibly counterproductive.” And Viggo himself, he’s like, “I can crunch,” he says, “for weeks at a time, as long as I’m only fixing bugs.” He was like, “If you need me to do something creative,” he’s like, “I’m useless.” He’s like, “So that’s something I know.” He was like, “[Basically the point?] where I just need to fix bugs, like that’s just what I’ll do. I’ll just settle in and just run down a list of things to fix.” And he’s like, “And I can do that for a long time.”

“What’s your vacation policy?” He said, “We don’t really have one.” He’s like, “I hope everyone takes five days a quarter.” He was like, “That’s what I encourage people to do.” You know. And I’m like, “That’s good.”

THERAPIST: You get four weeks.

CLIENT: Yeah, four weeks of vacation. You don’t get that at Melody till you’ve been there ten years.

THERAPIST: Oh, is that right?

CLIENT: Yeah. Although you get two and a half weeks pretty early. He was like, “Yeah, we take some of the standard holidays.” He’s like, “We basically shut down during the basic holidays around Christmas. Because no one’s going to be here anyways, so.”

THERAPIST: Yeah, no. But I guess what I’m struck by though is the massive amount of expenditure that you psychologically… you know, all the work that you did to get ready for this.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And then being…

CLIENT: It’s so much easier than having the job. The job becomes so much easier. You know, it’s just like, what are you going to do show up and like make [evil stuff?] happen? This one guy I interviewed, he’s like, “I’m like hostile to new hires.” He’s like, “I don’t really want like to hire more people.” And I’m thinking like, “Well, your boss wants to go to 70, and we’re at 14 right now, so that’s going to be different.” He’s like, “So…”

THERAPIST: You’re not going to have a fun time. [0:36:00]

CLIENT: Well, I will. And I’m like… whatever, he’s a tools engineer. And I’m like, “Fantastic. I can use you.” You know, and I sell that to engineers. Like we are a support service specifically for you, right. So we were going to be… we’re going to talk to you all the time. You know, we’re going to figure out what… we want to know what you’re afraid of, you know, we want to know what areas you’re most concerned about. I’m like, “And more importantly, we also are going to tell you about the things you didn’t realize were broken. Like the things you were the most confident in, we’re going to show you where the flaws are.” I was like, “And that’s the back and forth. You tell us where you want us to look, and we’ll look, and we’ll tell you the places you forgot to look. And that’s the back and forth.” And people are like, “So what’s your… like what are your plans?” Like from what I’ve seen so far, you need three more testers. All right. That’s my rough estimate based on what you [overtalk].

THERAPIST: What’d you say, three more?

CLIENT: Three more testers. And they got it. Fred is like, “See, that sounds like a big number to me.” I’m like, “Well, here’s what we do. I would hire one more immediately and see how that went, and then we would scale up from there. And if we didn’t need a fourth then we’d never get a fourth.” I was like, “But my assumption is we need three more. And worst case scenario we contract out two more for a short period of time.”

THERAPIST: Hm. A man with a plan.

CLIENT: Yeah. I always give them a plan. I was reading their website, you know, in the previous days looking at all the stuff they’ve blogged about. They’re very open about their development process and [unclear] and knowing all that information.”

THERAPIST: Oh wow. That must have impressed them.

CLIENT: Well, I hope so. But, you know, I’m like, “So what I’ve read about you, what I’ve seen in here, and what I’ve just seen with the game you showed me, like this is my rough estimate of what you need.” You know. And I’ve been doing this for ten years, so like… I’m not fucking around, you know. [pause] So… yeah. [0:38:20]

THERAPIST: Yeah, I hear the laughter, that it’s like after that expenditure you were kinda trying to just… as I’ve been saying, and it sounds like you’re describing, giving yourself something, some sort of food almost…

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: … for what you were doing.

CLIENT: I know [at the bottom it?] makes me feel better.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I know that pizza makes me feel better.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And when Ginny’s gone renting movies makes me feel better. You know.

THERAPIST: Oh, you mean renting… if you’re renting a movie while she’s away?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah, some kind of like gift to yourself or something.

CLIENT: Yeah, and it’s always…

THERAPIST: A reward.

CLIENT: It’s always that sort of like what do I deserve.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And yesterday the UPS guy… and I get text updates from Amazon. I ordered some varnish for my menus so I can seal them essentially. Once you’ve painted them you varnish them with either gloss or satin or matte, I go for matte. It just essentially protects the paint, you know, so your guys don’t chip, you know, and stuff like that. But I get text updates from Amazon. And it’s like delivery was attempted, but, you know, better try again tomorrow. And I’m like, yesterday is the first time I’m going to let them lie about that. You know. Because they lie about it pretty often. The drivers are lazy as fuck, you know, and like…

THERAPIST: Oh, is that right? [0:40:00]

CLIENT: They’ll be like, “Oh, I tried to deliver it.” And like no you didn’t, I was home.

THERAPIST: Oh yeah.

CLIENT: I was on the couch. You didn’t approach the house because my dogs didn’t flip the fuck out. And I call UPS all the time. “Okay, your driver lied. And here’s why the driver lied. I’m putting in a formal complaint against this particular driver, so I want that know.” And then usually your packages get delivered much better after that. But yesterday I was like, okay, the weather outside is bullshit. If you didn’t want to drive down a dead end street, yeah, which is poorly plowed, that’s fine.

THERAPIST: Oh, right, okay.

CLIENT: I’ll just totally pretend that you tried to deliver it.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: So I’m not pissed about that. If today he doesn’t show up then I’m calling. I’m like, so our roads are plowed…

THERAPIST: That’s clear, yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. Or like… You know, none of the packages are signed for, I’ve made that clear. You know.

THERAPIST: You mean they can just drop it off.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: They don’t need to have a signature.

CLIENT: Yeah. I’m like, “Just put it in my fucking door.”

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: You know, like… And so one idiot threw it at the door and whatever. I heard it bounce off the door when it got there.

THERAPIST: He threw it at the door?

CLIENT: He threw it at the door.

THERAPIST: Why would…

CLIENT: I have no idea. I have no idea.

THERAPIST: Just to get it done fast or something?

CLIENT: I guess. I’ve seen them do that before, just like hurl things over people’s fences onto porches, just to like, you know, not to have to go through the fence. They’re not paid very well.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I was wondering, is it like…

CLIENT: So it’s like why fucking bother.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. Or they have to do a certain… is there more pressure now to get more done or…

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, it’s just from Amazon, so they…

THERAPIST: Oh, is that right?

CLIENT: Well, I mean, they’ve got a huge contract through Amazon, right. Amazon sends basically everything through them. Especially if they have Amazon Prime, which I do, because it’s stupid not to have it. Well, I should say not stupid. I should say, this fucking scarf leaves threads in my mouth. It’s not stupid so much as… it’s inefficient. I mean, if you buy things, why are you going to a store unless you need it exactly that day? Right? Amazon Prime is $80 a year, you get a bunch of free TV, it streams. You know, you get money off on those things you want, and you get free two day shipping. That’s great. Like that battle wagon I want, $80 in the store, $60 online if I wait two days for it. Sometimes three if the UPS driver is going to be lazy about it. Then whatever. You know, so why not have it. But they ship everything that’s Prime through UPS. And so, you know, that’s where UPS’s huge amounts of money come from, because they contract with Amazon. What I should be doing is complaining to Amazon. Like, “Hey, our local UPS area keeps whining about delivering packages, so it’s really cutting down on our faith in you as a system.” Then let Amazon just thrash on UPS, and be like, “Hey, we have complaints of the customer not getting their packages.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, they… yeah, right, they’re probably really squeezing each other back and forth to…

CLIENT: Yeah, exactly.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Well, thinking of that, this is all in the context of you really needing the package, what’s in the package.

CLIENT: Yeah. Or I’m expecting it for… Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It’s like, we made a deal.

THERAPIST: Well, and you know, your description though of like walking out of the…and it being icy and cold. It seems like it captured something about a feeling that was going on too. And wanting to warm up, wanting to have some way to kinda have something after all that expenditure, after all that kinda effort. [0:44:00]

CLIENT: Yeah, something that brings you up again.

THERAPIST: Something that brings you up again.

CLIENT: But like and I passed… I knew there was like two [dollars?] down the street. You know, it’s like I can just call them…

THERAPIST: You could just get that and go on.

CLIENT: And I could just go, you know, over. But like it’s hard [if you already?] know what’s going to be there. Because he usually gets indica [unclear], because that’s what most of his customers want. And if he get a pretty sweet sativa, if I don’t beat the other guy to it the other guy will buy it all. He’ll like fucking two ounces of weed, you know. And I’m like, could you fucking leave like half an ounce for me?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Like that would be… I’d appreciate that, you know. And that’s all I want. Two ounces of sativa. One ounce even. Half an ounce. Something that keeps me up and clear. And not exhausted and lazy and slow. And I feel like I’m gonna fail.

THERAPIST: Why would that be a fail?

CLIENT: Because I keep telling myself I’m not gonna buy it. I’m not gonna pre-celebrate, I’m not gonna…

THERAPIST: Yeah, what?

CLIENT: Be like get this for myself before I get the job, you know. The reward should be after I get the job.

THERAPIST: I have a sense that you need the reward for all the… all the kinda…

CLIENT: Well, that’s the thing, yeah…

THERAPIST: … all you went through.

CLIENT: … what the fuck am I gonna do, you know? And I’m gonna sit there and buy it and then feel guilty.

THERAPIST: You will?

CLIENT: Probably. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah, about… about what?

CLIENT: That I want something.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [0:46:00]

CLIENT: Because nothing brings me up anymore. I’m gonna go home, I’ll yell at my dogs for doing something stupid. They’ll feel awful, because they don’t understand anything. And Ginny was like, “Hank was eating poop again.” “Like did you tell him to leave it?” And she was like, “No, I yelled ‘Hank!’” I’m like, “You need to tell him to leave it, those are the English words he understands. All right. I have trained him in this way. So don’t be upset if you’re not using the only words he understands.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know. It’s like don’t… So I when I was getting my haircut last week, idiot woman walking by with her dog, a Dachshund, and she’s like, she pulls him up, she goes, “No! Never! That is never okay. You understand? You are never allowed to do that.” And I just say out loud, like your dog doesn’t understand you. He had no idea what never means.

THERAPIST: Mm hm, yeah.

CLIENT: He has no idea what forever means, all right. He understands what’s happening now. Which is that you’re very angry. You’re very angry at him being pulled over against the building. He’s like, “Well, I shouldn’t be this close to a building apparently.” Getting to know that. Pepper barks if we’ll leave the house. She’s just really, “No, no, no. Ar, ar, ar, ar, ar!” And she leaps back and forth, and like takes a sock and breaks its neck, you know, shows her dominance. And she’s like, “I’m a killer, I’m a threat,” and the whole thing. So me with a shovel, and I’m like, “Hey, stop it!” You know, and she like stops for a second. And I start to go, and she’s… I’m like, “I will put you in the fucking snow! Do you want that? Do you want to go in the fucking snow?” And like… and that’s all she knows is the tone. And she backs up a bit more. We go to open the door again, she starts to bark. I just keep turning back to her, it’s like, I will just destroy you. You know. Like I don’t give a shit about you. And there’s a little like, “rrr, rrr.” A little defiance still showing, she’s gonna protect the house, regardless of the fact that I’m leaving. [0:48:15]

Whereas Hank just, you know, he’s like, “What?” “Stay.” “Oh, okay.” Because he knows to stay. And when Ginny doesn’t use the word ‘stay’ he doesn’t stay. You know, I mean, those are the words… he knows certain English words. Like… and if you don’t use them, then he won’t respond to you. So it’s like, “He doesn’t come in when I tell him to come in.” It’s like, “Because you’re not using the words that he understands.” You’re like, “Hank! Hank, get in here. Hank.” Then she’s like, “Hank won’t come inside.” I’m like, “One second.” I go out there, I’m like, “Hey buddy, come here.” He’s like, “Oh, okay.” [sounds of Hank marching up]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I’m like, “Those are the words he knows.”

THERAPIST: But he needs help staying in check. He can’t do it on his self, huh.

CLIENT: He just needs you to tell him what to do in words he understands. And he wants to comply. That’s Hank’s greatest strength as a pet, because he wants to comply. You know. [pause] This Internet cam girl is just amazing. I usually miss her, because she’s only on early, like in the period of time her kids have gone to school and she’s like waiting to go to whatever her job is, you know. And sometimes late her night if her kids are like with their dad or whatever, you know. So… and sometimes late at night if her kids are like with their dad or whatever, you know. So she does have a pretty random schedule. And so pretty often I miss her, I’m like, “Aw, damn, I missed you by like ten minutes.” I missed her by ten minutes, and still you’re fantastic, and here’s five bucks, you know, for having missed you. Because she sends me these videos. She’s like, “Oh, well here’s a video of me.” I’m like, “Oh, that’s great.”

THERAPIST: Hm. [0:50:10]

CLIENT: That’s nice. You know, we have this sort of relationship going. I’m one of those people on her friends list of a couple hundred people. You know. But.

THERAPIST: Well, you know, just a couple things. First of all, I did e-mail Carla to let her know what you had been telling me and to kind of reinforce that. And, you know, the second thing I think is that it seems like… I mean, you can probably tell me, I’m trying to go down this road with you around what are the things that are kinda causing the neurochemical ups and downs. Because there are things that are doing that. You know, like the amount… I think you’re sort of saying when you put in that kind of amount of time and energy into something, and expend all that kind of effort, and then you lose it.

CLIENT: And it goes away immediately.

THERAPIST: It goes away immediately. And then you find yourself doing things to try to…

CLIENT: Try to bring it back up.

THERAPIST: Try to… And then you get kinda mad about those efforts in some ways too.

CLIENT: Well, yeah, because those efforts only last so long.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know, and…

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I know. I know I’m like, “Oh… [like this/I guess?] nothing is interesting. Well, that’s a clear sign I’ve run out of all the chemicals. You know.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And the only thing that’s interesting is like how hard can I press that screwdriver against my neck before I actually puncture something.

THERAPIST: Ah.

CLIENT: Like how much… how much force would that actually take? Like how far can I push it before I damage myself? I’m just curious. You know. Puncturing a carotid is actually pretty high on the agony scale, and success is pretty low.

THERAPIST: But it comes out of that place of like not feeling there’s anything.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Oh. [0:52:00]

CLIENT: That’s why people kill themselves, everything’s gone. Suicide’s not something you do, it’s something that happens to you. That’s the idiocy involved in everybody going, “[inaudible]. Don’t eat a banana.”

THERAPIST: What’s that?

CLIENT: “Don’t eat a banana.” You know, it’s the same sort of thing. It’s like… It’s just any sort of like ludicrous idea that you have a choice over matters. Like don’t do this thing that like everything in your body is telling you is the only thing that will work, you know. It’s like, “Don’t do that.” “Why?” “Because I will be sad.” “Who the fuck cares about you?”

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Let’s talk about me. So anyhow. [pause] Good luck with your future patients today.

THERAPIST: Thank you.

CLIENT: You’re welcome.

THERAPIST: All right, Monday.

CLIENT: All right. Oh, Ginny says the 17th is fine.

THERAPIST: The 17th is fine, okay.

CLIENT: Because she has that day off anyway.

THERAPIST: Okay. And I’ll confirm for sure Monday then. And I’ll give you a couple names for your friend.

CLIENT: Great, thanks.

THERAPIST: Yup.

END TRANSCRIPT