TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

(whistling)

THERAPIST: Good morning.

CLIENT: Good morning.

THERAPIST: Come on in. (pause)

CLIENT: So this is our last week until Friday.

THERAPIST: Yes, that is right. Yeah.

CLIENT: [Ah, good for me. Ginny had a surprise.] (ph) I am leaving for the weekend. Not a real surprise but we must have talked about it at some point.

THERAPIST: Yeah, we were on for like 11:00 on -

CLIENT: Yeah. Friday or whatever it is.

THERAPIST: Yeah, 10:45.

CLIENT: That is right. Yeah. My phone knows everything. It will tell you the day and hour for it.

THERAPIST: I know, I know.

CLIENT: Like, “Alright, yeah, I should leave right now from whatever I am doing.”

THERAPIST: Yeah. Like you put on alerts and stuff?

CLIENT: Yeah. Two. There is always two.

THERAPIST: Oh good, yeah, yeah. I can’t put two on mine.

CLIENT: Oh, because you do alert.

THERAPIST: Yeah?

CLIENT: And then it should be under that. It should say “second alert” after that. (inaudible at 00:01:20) the first one.

THERAPIST: Okay. I see.

CLIENT: It is not completely intuitive. (inaudible)

THERAPIST: Yeah. Right.

CLIENT: So who knows what temperature it will be today? It was snowing this morning so I have got three layers on plus this and it might end up being too much. I have to go into math lab today and take a test for which I am not prepared. I am going to say that right now. I am not prepared.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Fred’s plan of wake up, have a job, good. Go to job in the morning, you have something to do, and then smoke weed later. Does not work as I should have known going in.

THERAPIST: What happened? Tell me.

CLIENT: It doesn’t work. It is like, well yeah, I might as well just wake up and smoke this joint anyway.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: You know, and then I will come down and I will do some work.

THERAPIST: Will you? Will you, Fred?

CLIENT: Yeah. Based on history I don’t see any reason to believe why this is true. And it is the same as the bullshit that I go through with any production process with any employer. You know? I go, “Okay, we are going to do all this stuff and it is not going to slip.” We always slip though. “No, but not this time. This time we have got it figured out.” This time we have it figured out. [00:02:43]

THERAPIST: Oh. Huh.

I don’t think that we do. We always think we have it figured out and then it is never figured out by the time we get there. So I am going to get all in my head and say, “Nah.” If we are looking at large number theory like we are very likely to slip again. You know? We still fuck up. No successful results of all of our trials. So, therefore, current data says one hundred percent chance that it will slip. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Is it kind of like it is too good to pass It is too helpful to pass up, in a certain sense.

CLIENT: (sigh) Yeah. And it is just like, “Oh, everything is better now.”

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: You know? It is so much better except that I am just not getting anything done. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I am getting a lot of Civilization 5 done. I am getting a lot of that done. Starting on small empires and trying to build empires about other empires and ending up in a war with Persia.

THERAPIST: Can you study when you are high?

CLIENT: Not to the point that it sticks. [00:03:43]

THERAPIST: Is that right?

CLIENT: And that is the problem. You know?

THERAPIST: Okay. It is just too much. It doesn’t -

CLIENT: I have to keep going over and over and over it again to make sure it, you know, repeats. And this morning I wake up and I smoked half a joint before I even get to the, well, while dogs are (inaudible at 00:04:04). And I say to myself, I say, “Self (sigh) you are going to get back in there and get all our stuff together. Boom, boom, boom, and be out of here by 10:10 on the road and be at Carl’s appointment.”

I get out the door at 10:11 although the clock says 9:11 because I haven’t fixed the toaster or the stove clock yet. And my brain sees 9-11, it is a portent of doom.

THERAPIST: Oh. Okay.

CLIENT: You know, something awful happened. As I go to lock the door, I am like, what are the other likely probabilities. Right? That I haven’t reset that clock. That I was planning to leave the house at 10:10. That I would, instead of reaching into my pocket for my phone, turn to the right and look at the clock which, having not been reset, will be nine something very close to the current minute that we are in. Which in this case happens to be eleven. [00:05:05]

THERAPIST: Mm hm. But what happened though? What did you think, though, when you saw the 9:11?

CLIENT: Just that suddenly, “Oh, no, my house is going to burn down while I am gone.”

THERAPIST: You are house is going to burn down. Yeah.

CLIENT: I have that fear when I leave the house so often. Like, “Oh, this is going to burn down while I am gone.”

THERAPIST: Do you need to check the stove ever and stuff like that?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah?

CLIENT: Yeah. I do that. Or I even check inert material that has been burned in the last half hour.

THERAPIST: Oh okay.

CLIENT: I check the roach. I will be like, “Are you out? Of course you are really out.”

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: “And even if you weren’t you can’t produce enough heat inside this closed metal container to do anything to this plastic desk.” You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah. It is sounds like much more like an anxiety that you can’t shake no matter how much proof you give yourself in some way.

CLIENT: Right. Although the 9:11 thing helped, I think. This would be like, “Oh, okay.” It is not even basic reasoning but is just like, is there some other probability which is closer and more likely to have happened than the coincidence I am creating in my head? [00:06:06]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Right? Where in seeing the number 9:11 as I am about to leave the house is a sign from something that something terrible is going to happen. And the answer to that is, probably not. You know? And hopefully not because then if it is then I have to start looking at everything that way. And what sort of awful creature would do such a thing?

Okay, I am going to let you know that bad things happen. The importance of bad things are happening. So just look. Everything might be important now. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah. But so you can talk yourself out of the -

CLIENT: I think to a degree. I am better now than I used to be able to.

THERAPIST: Is that right?

CLIENT: Yeah. When I am on my breaks I have been watching videos on, you know, logic and decision making using logic. And, again, I don’t have my head fully around it yet but I think I will if I work on it again based on the work I have been doing, is basing it on reasoning. The probability that this information somehow changes what you currently know. [00:07:09]

THERAPIST: Oh. Huh.

CLIENT: I mean, what is the likelihood that this is valuable information to be changing our opinion of X. You know? And it has also been SuperBetter, which is this free, free to play web game, a self-improvement web game. Where one of the things is you say, “Yeah, I want to be better about like X.” And then they are packed with challenges that it gives you for the day.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: And one of the things is like, you know, one of the practices is, “What is more likely?” It is like whenever something bad happens and then you start to ascribe it to something you have done or some other power or something, you stop and you make yourself think. Like what is actually more likely? Is there some other likely possibility that could have caused this to happen other than some failing in myself in the universe. And I find that useful.

THERAPIST: Yeah, it is good to have that because I think your brain, your mind is really, I think out of experience, out of a traumatic experience, been geared really to perceive dangers adaptively. [00:08:22]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Adaptively.

CLIENT: Yeah, danger is real.

THERAPIST: And anxiety that kind of keeps you on alert.

CLIENT: That is something my doctor said. I saw her recently. She was like, eventually I will need more Klonopin than I have. She is like, “Actually, you build a tolerance to Klonopin.” She is like, “So that is not a long term solution.”

THERAPIST: Who is this?

CLIENT: My doctor. My personal care provider.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: I just saw her recently for my physical, you know [twenty minute] (ph) physical. You know? But, who knows? Who knows? I have to call any one of those multiple psychiatrists. And she is like, “You have got to do it fast because there are a lot more people who need psychiatrists and I am not a psychiatrist.” And she is like, “If worst comes to worst I can always prescribe these things for you if you can’t find someone.”

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So she is like, “That is not a problem.” So that is good.

THERAPIST: Good. Yeah.

CLIENT: Some time I can use it as a backup. But who knows how long she will do that. Doctors go in and out of this area.

THERAPIST: Where do you see her?

CLIENT: [] Health Clinic.

THERAPIST: Okay. Through Georgetown Health Alliance?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, I guess. Yeah, they are part of that whole thing (inaudible at 00:09:34). So I like that about them. She is a funny doctor. She is Ginny’s age.

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah. I did hear from Irene Ake and she said that she is So she is not taking people into her private practice or new people into her private practice. But she is At least psychopharm. I think she might doing therapy.

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: But she is available to see people through the Georgetown Health Alliance.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: The trick is that, from what she told me, is that when you call up for an appointment they frown upon you asking for somebody specific.

CLIENT: Oh, I understand.

THERAPIST: But if you want to see her give it a shot.

CLIENT: Why not?

THERAPIST: Why not give it a shot even if they frown on it. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Just say like, “This person was recommended.” You know, “Just say “

CLIENT: Yeah, “This person was recommended. This is really the one I feel comfortable seeing.” [00:10:35]

THERAPIST: “I have met with her before.”

CLIENT: Yeah. That is right. “I have spoken to her before.” Blah, blah.

THERAPIST: She works with my therapist.

CLIENT: Okay. Great. These are all the I am not asking out of whimsy.

THERAPIST: That is right.

CLIENT: Yeah. So cool. Well alright. Well I am going to call this other one too and see if they are also useful.

THERAPIST: Yeah, if you want. I mean that is -

CLIENT: Yeah, I will go down and look around. I also feel like I don’t want to put her out of her way.

THERAPIST: I don’t think it would. It wouldn’t be putting her out as far as I can tell. I mean, I don’t know. Maybe it would but now from what I know.

CLIENT: Okay. Fair enough. You probably have some ability to judge the person. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Well you will know more when you meet with her. (laughs)

CLIENT: You have been doing this a long time. How long have you been doing this, psychoanalyst?

THERAPIST: I have been I started grad school, I started meeting with people, I started becoming a therapist in 1998.

CLIENT: Wow. Cool.

THERAPIST: Sixteen years.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:11: 39) Interesting.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Interesting. Just a little bit longer than Ginny.

THERAPIST: Oh, is that right?

CLIENT: Yeah. (sigh) I find myself writing more, in my head a lot though, a book. It seems that I do it in waves. And the thing that I like about it a lot so far is that firming (ph) to the three main characters. These are a very different perspective. It is a writing from those different perspectives. It is very interesting. It teaches you more about each character as you (inaudible at 00:12:15). Yeah. So that is cool.

But today I go into a math test for which I am not prepared because if I have marijuana I will smoke with every given opportunity. And that is just a fact of who I am. That is something I am going to have to fucking deal with. So it is difficult without it. (pause) It is better with it.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But I am not accomplishing things I need to accomplish.

THERAPIST: It is a way you are trying to just take care of yourself though.

CLIENT: Yeah. But it ends up being a fucking pawn (ph) for me.

THERAPIST: No, it is not without its consequences.

CLIENT: Right because I can’t just throw it away. And I am like, what do I have to do? I have got this paraphernalia.

THERAPIST: What can you do? What can you do that is different, do you think?

CLIENT: I mean, I think I can take my grinder and my vaporizer and give those to friends (ph) that might have use for them someday. I can take the weed and give that to Charles and go, “This is yours.” Boom. And I am done. Have none of it. I have nothing with which to use it. I will throw out my rolling papers. You know? [00:13:18]

THERAPIST: Or what if you give it to him just to, you know -

CLIENT: Absolutely not.

THERAPIST: What?

CLIENT: Any sort of like, “Here, hold this for me.” Or any sort of like rationing.

THERAPIST: Yeah. But during the week or something.

CLIENT: Nah. Forget it.

THERAPIST: Why?

CLIENT: Because all I will do is hate them. That is all I will do.

THERAPIST: What will you do?

CLIENT: I will just hate them for not giving it to me because I will want it and I won’t have it.

THERAPIST: Ah.

CLIENT: And why did I give it them when it is mine in the first place?

THERAPIST: Oh. Huh.

CLIENT: You know, something like that.

THERAPIST: You have to literally destroy it.

CLIENT: (cross talking at 00:13:53). So I think there is only one way. I think I have to stop doing it forever. You know? Or until I get to some point in my life where I can feel like, “Yeah, man. Who gives a crap? I don’t need to be useful all the time.”

THERAPIST: Well I think that you were able to do it though at work. What made it different?

CLIENT: I think I just didn’t smoke weed all day. I woke up and went to work. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And then I came home and I smoked weed for a few hours and then I went to bed. You know? Whereas now I am smoking weed most of my waking life because there is nothing -

THERAPIST: Because there is nowhere to go.

CLIENT: Because nothing stops me. Yeah. And so even, “Oh my God. I have got a test on Monday.” And I am like, “Yeah, but that’s nothing. It is the first attempt. I don’t have to do well.” Like I can use the first test to learn what will be on the second test. You know? (pause) You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I am going to fucking get some grade somewhere. And, you know, I will read over point two and point one. So I will have some knowledge of 6.1 and 6.2 and the test is about 6.1 through 6.3.

THERAPIST: Do you go in on Fridays?

CLIENT: I usually go in on Thursdays. Mondays and Thursdays for my (inaudible at 00:15:16)

THERAPIST: Yeah. And you can, like when you are there on Thursday do you feel like you do good work?

CLIENT: Generally. I mean, yeah. It depends (laughs) on how high I got in the morning.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know?

THERAPIST: Does it wear off later?

CLIENT: It does. But the problem with this indicate (ph) is that it is going to be in a joint form and it lasts longer, I find, throughout the day.

THERAPIST: Ah. Okay.

CLIENT: And there is kind of a down slope of it. You know? (inaudible at 00:15:52), but it is like in all the distribution. Control charts. Yeah. So it is all very exciting, by the way, normal distributions, control charts and it is referred to as the “Swiss Army Knife of statistics.” You know?

THERAPIST: Why is it considered that? I remember hearing that.

CLIENT: Because you can just fucking do so much with it. You know? With all the theorem (ph) of standard deviations and tracking and that kind of thing. And that is what statistics are for, tracking and that kind of thing. You know? Yeah, I have heard things about normal distribution which apparently is a lot of things. You know?

Like you see nine consecutive points on one side of the mean. And you are like, ah, okay, hold up. Like we are drifting in a certain direction here. So what does this actually mean? Should we change our expected number to be more in line with the drift? You know?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Because we know we want a normal distribution. So two out of three consecutive points fall into the standard deviation, second standard deviation. Like what is going on there? Some sort of event, some sort of flutter. You know? And then of course the outlier, something like out beyond the third deviation. And it is like, what happened here? What freak event occurred? You know? [00:17:20]

THERAPIST: The problem with data collection. Yeah.

CLIENT: The area under the curve is one, always one. And that is just percentages: 34 percent is one standard deviation from the mean and then it is 13.75, I think is that. Yeah and then it is [somewhat smaller but all of it] (ph) is 99.7. You know?

THERAPIST: Within what, about two?

CLIENT: Yeah, within two. So it is 99.007 now. Because then it is .003. It is the opposite. The inverse chance that something will happen outside of three standard deviations. And that is exciting fun stuff. You can tell a lot about data by the height and the upward cup (ph) and inflection points.

There is a lot of information to be learned there. Like Carlos Sagan says, “We are the way for the universe “ Was it Carlos? Yeah, Carl Sagan. Carl Sagan said We are the way for the universe to know itself and there is much to be learned.” You know? There is much to be learned. [00:18:38]

And I started seeing math the other day after, you know, studying those things. Like when I go and I play this card game involving dice and probabilities, like all the games do. With [Eugene and Victor and Charles] (sp). And I was talking to Victor (sp) on the way over about normal distributions. And he was like, “Yeah, aren’t they amazing.”

Eugene and Victor are both (inaudible at 00:18:59) and based on mathematics. And so we were just talking about them and having a good time. And as we are rolling dice I am seeing probabilities.

THERAPIST: Yeah?

CLIENT: And I am like it is sort of how I see these things. You know, just fluttering here in the wind still. So, I don’t know, I placed them so hard that they are like -

THERAPIST: They are there.

CLIENT: They are there. I’ll have to do something about that actually.

THERAPIST: Why? They won’t go away.

CLIENT: Yeah. They have been hanging. I am trying to dismantle them and see what happens. But regardless. But I am seeing some of these things superimposed over them as if understanding more securely the world. Math is the language for everything. Math explains everything. It explains everything. Everything that is put together can be explained in math. Everything that exists can be explained in math. [00:19:59]

It is like the fucking words of power are in my book. You know? It is like these are the symbols and the words we use to describe everything we know and is quite something I have always been interested in, predicting the future with as much accuracy as possible. You know? Risk tolerance. I told you my joke about religions and (inaudible at 00:20:25) outcomes, right?

THERAPIST: Yeah. That is an interesting idea. How do you get You pick the best one based upon the probability that -

CLIENT: Yeah. Given that you can ignore everyone that is (inaudible).

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. What is the best one to go with based upon -

CLIENT: Yeah. Exactly. And how awful it is.

THERAPIST: That would make a good paper.

CLIENT: It would, wouldn’t it? Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know?

CLIENT: Or blog about it. Which I probably wrote at some point with some fun and ha has.

THERAPIST: It is a clever way of looking at it. (laughs)

CLIENT: Yeah. (laughs)

THERAPIST: I am surprised it hasn’t been done yet.

CLIENT: It is really where should we be. And one of the things is easy. It is like the first thing is I want everyone to start off right now, take a moment and think to yourself as sincerely as you can, “I accept Jesus Christ as my personal lord and savior.” Say it once, you’re one and done. Once you hit grace in that particular sect you are in. (snaps) So, good. Your base is covered if that is an outcome. So now we can ignore it and start looking at other ones. [00:21:28]

Okay. Jehovah’s Witnesses. Penalty for failure, you stop existing. That seems fine but we have thrown that in the no penalty for failure box. So that is great. Mormonism. Penalties for failure. Well potentially some really bad ones.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But if you are still a decent human being it is not bad at all.

THERAPIST: You would still get off even if you are not believing.

CLIENT: Yeah. Exactly. Hinduism is more difficult. You have to have your third son light your funeral pyre to get off the wheel. And there is really no predicting. But still the consummate (ph) failure, you are just going to have to do it again. It is not super bad. You know?

And if you look at Catholicism, I mean there isn’t actually a hell. They are like, “Oh, we have this dogma of hell but we actually have no real basis, you know, actually evidence from what we completely believe about Jesus Christ.” It just explains a world in which there would be a hell. You know?

You know, so then you have to start predicting (ph) dogma as well and most of the times doctrine. Which lets you just say that Christianity is one of the big three. What are the consequences of failure? They are actually not described. They are not described very well. [00:22:42]

THERAPIST: You need more data.

CLIENT: Well, yeah. Like in terms of bishops and people like that, I mean, like all sorts of shit. They are like, “Oh. There is hell with hellfire and brimstone.”

THERAPIST: Ah, but the actual text.

CLIENT: Yeah. Exactly. Like Dante’s inferno and that shit. Okay, that is all sort of stories we have told to support the church because [these are the operations of the] (ph) church. And they were like, “Yeah, those stories are about us or we will fucking kill you.” You know? That is the world we live in.

So, I don’t know. As far as Judaism goes I think when you die you are pretty much just dead. Like Judaism is the closest religion to atheism I think you can find. You know, the closest one. The religion most like, if we are being intellectually honest, agnosticism in which so much of the world lives.

THERAPIST: How much doubt they have.

CLIENT: Well, yeah. You cannot know with certainty in either direction. So to be like, “I am an atheist. I do not believe in God.” Well that is -

THERAPIST: [That is to] (sp) eliminate them. [00:23:53]

CLIENT: It is still a problem. It is like, “I do not believe in that.” It is like with something as complex as the universe we should be very careful what we say can’t exist. Right? And honestly, I will agree with you, there is certainly no evidence for these variety of deities which I have, as (inaudible at 00:24:18) would say, has of yet escaped the mass graveyard called mythology. You know? Because eventually they too shall pass.

THERAPIST: Until they become myths.

CLIENT: Yeah. Stories. Well they are now. And it just going to be recognizing that. I mean, these are stories that people wrote down to explain the world as they understood it, which was poorly. Right? And that is the first thing that people need to look at. These were stories written by people to explain the world, who understood it poorly. (pause) So what are you going to do?

And someone mentioned the other day that Moses probably never existed. And I am sitting there and I am like, yeah, well we have all these stories about him. Magical powers, you know, people casting spells, children abandoned in a stream and go somewhere else. [00:25:19]

This is the orphan tale. We have this kind of like fantasy literature. “Some orphan abandoned turns out to be King Ramady (ph) Lord of the Zipzapsodies (ph).”

THERAPIST: Mm hm. Mm hm.

CLIENT: It is an ancient story. I use it all the time. I love it. You know, he has magical powers. He parts the Red Sea. He gets lost in the desert for 40 years. Not really. You know? I mean what is more likely? You know? That someone found a baby that, you know, in some way had been abandoned or something or lost in some way.

And it was of a different color and they raised it along with their kids anyway. You know? And it was always kind of a second class citizen but still, you know, Moses. And he has got friends in the Jews. He is Jewish. He is conflicted (ph) with these things. And so, yeah, maybe he needs a slave escape at some point.

And someone engineers an escape for slaves and they escape into the desert and they get lost for a while. And then they find some other place that works out well. And along the way they figure out some ideas of like, these are some ways we should treat each other. You know? Just to be really clear. You know? [00:26:33]

We probably shouldn’t have any graven images. Well why? The fucking Egyptians. Do you see how much graven images they have? That shit is evil, right? Like all those graven images back there. Man, you are right. I do associate all those with those experiences. We should probably make sure there is none of those. You know? Right? And all this seems so simple. But over time there has to be this person that is a hero.

THERAPIST: Yeah, but not be a superhero character.

CLIENT: Yeah. What actually happened? Jesus was an activist, a political activist and the Roman’s murdered him because that is what they did to political activists. And then it becomes this story of like, “Oh, he raised the dead.” Says who? Some guy who we talked to 60 years later.

Who knows if there was even a Lazarus? Right? “Oh, yeah. He died and came back.” And we go chat with Lazarus. Well it has been 60 years. In an age where like living beyond, you know, 60 years beyond his adulthood, in which he apparently was, is slim at best. [00:27:35]

So probably not. You know? “Well let’s just write some shit about him anyway.” You know? Like what do we know. What do we know. And so you can probably look back at these things. Like with the Odyssey. They are like, “Oh yeah, shit. There really was a Troy and these people went to war.”

And there were people they wrote about who had these names. You know? And they were soldiers who were there. And they were pretty impressive and so they fucking wrote fan fiction about them.

Yeah, and with Achilles, man. Like he could not fucking kill Achilles. He was amazing. He was so good. Right? Like he is invincible. Except did you see he got shot through the ankle? Yeah. Who would have thought? Like, that is amazing. Like that is what took him down. Like, fuck, there must have been some reason for that.

This man who was amazing, right? Like we explain the world I mean what are the odds that something they told us They are like, notice how the gods only ever take action in the form of natural events. And this is how they explain the world. You know? Lightning strikes were from someone. [00:28:42]

It is like Bill O’Reilly. “Well what about the moon? Who put it there?” The presupposition that someone had to put it there.

THERAPIST: There is a doer.

CLIENT: Yeah. Someone had to intentionally make a moon.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Someone intentionally made you. And that is the conceit of Christianity. Someone intentionally made you besides your idiot parents. Right? You know, who were just like monkeys who had sex and popped out another monkey.

“We are not descended from monkeys. We have a common ancestry, but regardless.” That is what they like to say. “If we come from monkeys, how come there are still monkeys? Because we don’t come from monkeys.”

I mean you can just you YouTube this shit. It is like five minutes. All of evolution can be explained to you in five minutes. I mean, and there are lots of different ones in varying ways. So you learn even more. Wow there is so much proof of these and people are like, “There is no transition fossils.” Yes there are. (inaudible at 00:29:41)

We have thousands and thousands of transitional fossils. Like just come look at them. We have them all in place and you can go see them. We are not hiding them. You know? “You made them up.” Why? “Because of the devil.” Okay, well know what do we do? Because the devil. There is nothing I can possibly say that will convince you at this point.

THERAPIST: Yeah, but can’t we hang on to something that is more stable and grounded and less-

CLIENT: And that is fantastic. People write stories all the time. Did you ever see “Galaxy Quest?” It is a comedy with Tim Allen and Alan Rickman.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I fucking love that movie.

THERAPIST: I remember it. Yeah.

CLIENT: But remember, those aliens they see these episodes and treat them as historical documents because they do not have the concept of deception of fantasy.

THERAPIST: Right. Right.

CLIENT: And so for them it is entirely literal.

THERAPIST: It is literal.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. You know? And so they act in a rational way based on that false structure of ideas, of that information. But they act in a rational way. They build a spaceship and they go get this guy to help them fight a very real dangerous enemy. You know? [00:30:58]

THERAPIST: Oh. That is what happens. They get Tim Allen to get involved .

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: because they see the television.

CLIENT: Yeah. Exactly. They are like, “Oh, yeah. It is you. You are the captain of the ship,” which is the specification that was on the document. So, you know?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: That is really good. And, you know, as the movie goes on each actor you know, actor character becomes more and more like their TV character. You know? Like Sigourney Weaver’s costume keeps getting ripped to expose more cleavage. You know? (laughs) And just, you know, everyone starts becoming more like the person they pretended to be all those years.

THERAPIST: How about that? That is an interesting aspect of it.

CLIENT: It is. It really is. And that by playing those roles they become those people. You know? And, of course, that is a (inaudible at 00:31:49) for how people are defined by those roles.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You don’t see Jonathan Frakes do anything else anymore. You might hear his voice in some cartoons, he does some voice acting, but you don’t see him. You know, Riker from Star Trek: Next Generation.

THERAPIST: Oh, I don’t know him.

CLIENT: Well, yeah. If you don’t watch the show you will never see him again.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Like that is the thing. Like the performer who plays Deanna Troi. Gates McFadden who plays Doctor Crusher. I mean you see Jean-Luc Picard, Patrick Stewart, Sir Patrick Stewart. You see him but he is fucking sort of Patrick Stewart. You know? You see Will Wheaton because he has got a blog and shit. He has a little web series about playing board games.

THERAPIST: That is the guy in He was also in -

CLIENT: Stand By Me.

THERAPIST: Stand By Me. Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. Exactly. So he was a child actor who grew up and he was like, “I don’t want to really do that.” But then he does it some more. He does it on geek (ph) shows as well. Regardless of all that. None of that is important. [00:32:48]

THERAPIST: Well, yeah. I was thinking, though, that again the issue of good information and people hanging on more myths and magic.

CLIENT: Well it is dangerous for most of us.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Right? They are making decisions based on bad Decisions, because most human beings are rational beings. Right?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Let’s give that assumption. Let’s say most of us rational. Right? In any belief system, as whack-a-doodle as it is, we will still behave rationally.

THERAPIST: There will be a rationality.

CLIENT: Right. Exactly.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: They are rational within an irrational system. This means that decisions that they make sincerely and with full belief that these are the right decisions based on very bad information, can lead to child abuse like in my case.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: And can lead to all sorts of things. To rape, to institutionalized pedophilia. (cross talking at 00:33:52)

THERAPIST: Yeah. The most horrific things.

CLIENT: Yeah. Fucking genital mutilation. Like whatever. To them these are the right choices. Why? Oh, because of x, y and z. The juju on the mountain wants to cut all their clits off. You know?

THERAPIST: And will do it.

CLIENT: Yeah, of course. Because that is what it wants and that is what we do. It seems ridiculous to question it. “Have you not heard of the juju of the mountain? Well, let me tell you about it.” (sigh) It hates women with a furious passion. Yeah.

That is when I think of this book. You know, it talked about how the ocean chases people. It continues to erode land behind them at an alarming pace such that people continually move. You know, a lot of houses in the back are less structured because people are just going to move out of them as the ocean eventually destroys devours those. [00:34:58]

And so it is sort of a rolling society. So people living in what had mostly been military outposts that are now converted to civilian areas. Which then over generations continue to move as they push the wild farther and farther, further and further. So as to It is farther in that case. So as to make more room for the humans, for the people.

And it got me thinking, well what is beyond the wilds? Well I will call it the ether or whatever. And it is a world where gods reside. And part of their issue is that the wild is getting pushed to the degree where [actual losses] (ph) are pushing themselves into the ether.

And now all the most dangerous things in the wild like the dragons and demons and everything that they want to go into the ether where the gods are. And the gods are like, “We are on earth but we don’t want this.” You know? (laughs)

And some reference to the fact that the gods chase the ocean. That it is (inaudible at 00:36:06). There is something that the gods want from the ocean. That they draw power from it so they chase it to draw power from it. And it runs and destroys everything in front of it. Get as far away as you can.

And so this wheel continues. This wheel continues. And the gods try to keep enough distance between the wild and themselves. (pause) Yeah. So, that is what the second book is going to be about. And I will come up with a third. There you go. So that gives all three books.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: Um.

THERAPIST: What were you saying?

CLIENT: Well the first book is the one where learn that Maggie god is not a god at all but a futuristic traitor, [which I like] (ph), but has used to her gain power to travel into the ether and try to become an actual God.

THERAPIST: Ah.

CLIENT: And so then, Erin, you know, the second book, is the promise where she goes to find and kill this thing that she told that she would if she ever let Maggie die, which it does. In fact, it kills her and uses her up. The second book is her hunt, you know, into the wild where she will learn and experience things and it will great. The end of which she will actually confront this thing and get Maggie back, so that is good. [00:37:20]

And then the third book is about how they are going to fucking fix everything. You know? The various gods. So it is like, well, we are actually in the ether now. So what does that mean for us and what do we do now to effect the world?

THERAPIST: They effect it through that kind of -

CLIENT: Yeah. You know? Yeah. So I don’t know if I [am satisfied that I have enough for a] (ph) trilogy yet, but I have got one for two books. So we will see. We will see.

THERAPIST: Yet to be created. Huh?

CLIENT: Yeah. I have to figure out what it is going to be. But it is all about [freaks] (ph) and then it is about being their best. Maggie was driven to be her best. She has to be her best because she can. Right? Erin has chosen perfection. That is her goal and she strives towards it constantly. But there is no guilt behind it. There is no pressure behind it. It is simply, “This is what I should be.” [00:38:27]

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: BEthany. BEthany is good about it but she wants to do creative things. She has a talent for this, a deep inborn talent from [out of the blue] (ph) and she is called upon to use it and be responsible. Like be someone useful. At the same time she would rather make things as opposed to blowing them up. But the magic is about codifying (ph) what is reality. Boiling it all down to one word, one gesture. You know?

It is like (inaudible at 00:39:08) clearly I can speak it and it happens. You know? And I understand it so well it takes such a little of me. It costs so little of my own reserves to make it happen. Whereas, that and I am going to have her actually speak in reality changing words. You know? Those words hurt her in the ways that they damage the world. That is the price she pays for them. For improvising (ph). For hooking up to the torrent essentially, the torrent of power.

But I like that about her. And I like that she feels bad for people. Like when she kills that guy she actually feels a little bad for him because -

THERAPIST: The guy that you described the last time?

CLIENT: Yeah, because he is just making a mistake. She is small but she is a wizard and she is probably not a very [good kid] (ph). And because he isn’t very much of a challenge. And one of them was all fucked up before they go there. Something or other. There is kind of fighting in the back. [00:40:05]

And so there is this whole bit where he is just like, “You just gave the girl. You gave me everything that you had. That was your absolute best. Wasn’t it?” So it just wasn’t good enough. You know? It is like that is just awful. Like all of is your absolute best and none of it is good enough. And that when she goes to bite his face and this time she actually (inaudible at 00:40:27).

And then I have this moment when he realizes what is going on. Realizes that he underestimated the danger. And that is why she feels bad for him because he really didn’t understand how much danger he was in. And so that is too bad. Like he wouldn’t die right now if he had understood or if he had run away or something. You know? But he didn’t so -

I don’t like that even though she vomits afterwards. You know, it is like pieces of his brain and face are falling out of her mouth. She is keeping her eyes closed while she vomits it out. (laughs) And she doesn’t want to see it. And, yeah. (pause)

He is very proud of himself. You know, but not in like a “we are better,” but more like, “be more like Maggie and Erin. Be cooler like them.” (inaudible at 00:41:33) You know, she wants to be a better character in the book she is writing. You know? (pause)

THERAPIST: But she is limited in some ways.

CLIENT: She feels that she is. But it is emotional insecurity. She is incredibly powerful. She is easily a match for, you know (inaudible at 00:41:57).

THERAPIST: Oh, okay.

CLIENT: But she is not a leader. You know? And that is why they put her in charge of someone lower ranking. They could put her rather under someone else lower ranking because she doesn’t want to be leader. She doesn’t have that head for command. You know? She wants to make things.

She wants to make things and she is so talented in this other area that that is what she has to do. It is like, you know, “You would love to do that. You are good at that. But you are so good at this other thing that we need you here regardless of the fact that that is not your dream.” Like, “You have access to this.”

And that is part of the world I have created. It is like there is this point at which you get recognized as having some sort of special heroic ability. Or even if you aren’t. Especially if you are there is this moment in life that we will train you to use this or we won’t. Right? And the training you use (inaudible at 00:42:59). You use this in service of the collective. Right? This is always -

We will put you where we need to put you to push into the wild because the ocean is chasing us. And that is the other thing is that you will act in the best interest of the collective. And if you don’t take the oath they don’t train you. And of course I’m going to take the oath and get the training and then go AWOL. You know?

But that is part of the responsibility. Like, ah, okay, you have a talent for this sort of magic so that is what we need you to do now. You know? And so we can train you to use it and then you have to do it this way or we don’t teach you how to do it at all and you will fumble through the world trying to do something.

If we find you practicing magic unlicensed then there will be punishment for that. So if you want to use your gift, either you use it the way we need you to or you will never be allowed to touch it.

THERAPIST: Yeah. What do you think the principles at play are? What are the general It is almost like -

CLIENT: It is a species that is always completely fighting for survival. Behind it there is an ocean [with agents] (ph) that very much wants them all dead. You know? As far as they can perceive it. [00:44:11]

And ahead of them is this ever expanding wilderness of fantastical monstrous creatures but also this wealth and riches which they can use. Which they can use to power these sort of magical engines of war and progress that allow them to keep the civilization rolling forward wave after wave.

You know, like if everyone moves one generation deeper towards the wild, now they have expanded the border. And so being constantly at war it is like we are all in this together or you are out.

THERAPIST: Because we need you to be.

CLIENT: Right. Yeah. We need everyone in on this. (inaudible at 00:44:50) Except I have this thing about gnomes where they run into gnomes and discover that gnomes are people. And they define people as having the ability, in fact, the hardwired instinct to make compassionate choices. To be able to be part of the collective. It is like, “Ah, you can be in or out.” You have that choice. Are you in or are you out? And they are like, “We are in.”

So that is how I deal with (inaudible 00:45:19). You know, they discover them in the wild and either you are monsters or you are people. If you are people you can be or you can be out but we are going this way. And we are not going to just make a little pocket around your area.

THERAPIST: We are going to go over you.

CLIENT: We are going to over you and say, “Are you in or are you out?” So, yeah. You know, that is the second book is, what is it going alone into the wild and running into things like goblins. You know I have got a fucking goblin killing a bunch of them. A family pod of goblins.

And it is like that they had families blows her minds because they had never seen goblins and things. But the deeper into the wild they go the more evolved these things are, the people they are.

THERAPIST: They are not just monsters (cross talking at 00:46:15).

CLIENT: Yeah. Also, they have the ability for compassion. You know? That is what makes them people. You know? And that is something she will have to deal with. So I have her palling around with this goblin for a good part of the second book.

THERAPIST: She doesn’t kill him.

CLIENT: No. Because he is a person. It blows her fucking mind which shatters her world view. You know? A lot of things shatter her world view and she has to reaffirm and [let go] (ph) of a lot of it. But she is pragmatic so she will do something. Yeah. Yeah. (pause)

THERAPIST: What? What are you doing?

CLIENT: So I was thinking of how I am going to keep Sara busy in the second book. It keeps floating back and forth. You know, Sara is getting back to the frontier and Erin’s getting deep in the wild. I have this bit where she finally tracks down this God thing, that wants to be a god. And she, using some magic thing, she will have it trapped essentially. Like her sword is in it’s chest and the point is touching his heart. And she is like, “I can extinguish you.” It is like (inaudible at 00:47:30) no longer exists.

And I promised you I would find you if you let her die. So, I always keep all my promises so here I am. And she is like, “So, if you can bring Maggie back you have to bring her back. And the thing is like, “I can do that. I can do that.” And, you know, it offers to bring her back. And it is like, “You have to promise me that when you bring her back that you won’t kill me.” You know?

And she is like, “Alright. I promise you.” And it brings Maggie back but she keeps the thing trapped and she explains. So I have this thing where Maggie kills it. Where she reaches in alone to its heart and grabs what it had. So she still has all these champion-like abilities but the power comes from within her now as opposed to from without her.

THERAPIST: Hm. Hm.

CLIENT: So, yeah. So that is cool.

THERAPIST: What? Why? [00:48:32]

CLIENT: Well because it [will just be new.] (ph) And the third book is what they are going to do about the wild after knowing these things exist. It will be like, “We are coming up against it. There is an end to the wild. We didn’t there would be but there will be an end to the wild so we need to find something to do about the ocean.”

THERAPIST: Because it will keep -

CLIENT: Yeah. The ocean will keep coming and we are going to run out of space. So then the only thing to do is go into the ether and start killing gods.

THERAPIST: Who are creating the ocean.

CLIENT: Yeah. Pushing it forward, feeding off of it. So it runs from them. The ocean being the birth of creation and the origin of everything. The origin of everything chased by what would only be the creators of everything. The ones that feast on it. [00:49:32]

THERAPIST: The idea that, yeah, it creates you but it takes you away.

CLIENT: Yeah. It is a kind of circle.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So, that is about it. I picture this giant track, a (inaudible at 00:49:51) almost.

THERAPIST: Infinite.

CLIENT: Yeah. Infinite. And we will see. We will see how far they get. It is funny how it changes on you. Like rewriting so much of this stuff I am like It is very different now. A lot of it was just very off the cuff, funny, whatever stuff. And now there is more underneath everything. I understand them better now. I know why they do what they do to a better degree.

But none of this helps that I can’t stop smoking weed. I don’t know really know what to do about that.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I don’t really feel like Narcotics Anonymous is appropriate. (inaudible at 00:50:45) It is like, “I am addicted to marijuana.” And they will be like, “What the fuck are you doing here? You ever sucked dick for marijuana? No? I didn’t think so.” You know? “Because I am addicted to cocaine.” You know? And everyone is addicted to real drugs.

THERAPIST: Oh, I think they are pretty welcoming.

CLIENT: (sigh) (pause) Well, maybe. (ph) Yeah, who knows? Twelve steps are a problem. I am not a Christ-y so I am not really sure.

THERAPIST: Yeah, the higher power thing?

CLIENT: Right. It is better to concede, perhaps, that there are things that you cannot control. I think that is a much better way of putting it.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I think rather than like, “Lets assign it to something.” Let’s assign it. Like, “No, this is on you.” Yeah. This is on you. Right. [00:51:49]

THERAPIST: I mean, just to say, I think the other thing that is there is something else that is psychopharmacological. Because again, there are people that are getting a lot more help than you are getting.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: It really -

CLIENT: But it does it suck to be them? Are they like, “Ayyyy.”

THERAPIST: That can be the danger of doing it. But absolutely not for other people it is about finding the right kind of thing. I mean mostly in terms of just the feeling of like You know, when you are talking about just getting up and reckoning with a lot of what you are perceiving in the world. Like a lot of the -

Say the 9-11 thing. Like that stuff can kind of get The intensity of that can get dampened down the same way the pot does it.

CLIENT: Yeah. Zoooom. Calms everything down.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Lets me play Skyrim, let’s me play Civ 5. [00:52:53]

THERAPIST: Well, that is the thing that ideally the med doesn’t knock you out enough where you can’t do things.

CLIENT: You can’t do things.

THERAPIST: And there is a right balance but it is not easy. It is like an art. It is not a science.

CLIENT: Yeah. It is a little bit of both. (grunting sound) Yeah. It is a pain in the ass, Carl. Yeah. It is a pain in the ass.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But that is my life so there it is. I have got to live it.

THERAPIST: Well, yeah. And again We should stop, but the pot has been such an important thing. It has been one thing that you can provide, that you can get anywhere.

CLIENT: Yeah, it a button I push.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And it fixes everything, so, yeah, it is difficult to pass that up. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Yeah, right.

CLIENT: Like I am sitting there and I am just raging. I am like, “I am so angry.” And I have pot and am like, “Why not?”

THERAPIST: You can push a button.

CLIENT: Yeah, I can push a button. Alright.

THERAPIST: Alright, see you Thursday.

CLIENT: Have a good day.

END TRANSCRIPT