TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Oh good.

CLIENT: Yeah, so I’m not [hitting quite as rapidly] as I feared. There’s still time.

THERAPIST: The body still recovers.

CLIENT: There’s still time.

THERAPIST: Yep. So far so good.

CLIENT: So I went in and I took the test. I got a 48. I did poorly. I did poorly.

THERAPIST: On Monday this was?

CLIENT: Yeah. I studied the stuff. I tried to learn it, and I realize my strategy is flawed. My strategy of going in, do six hours of math, is fatally flawed because there is a muscle. I think I’m working out too long. It’s like “I’m going to go to krav for four hours. Let’s just go.” No, don’t go to krav for four hours, are you insane? It’s like -

THERAPIST: [That’s a good point.]

CLIENT: I can krav very hard for two hours. I’ll puke a couple of times in the middle of it, but I can krav very hard for two hours. I can math really well for three hours. The fourth hour I start to lose it. You know, moving into that fifth and sixth is just, forget it.

[00:01:07]

THERAPIST: Yeah, the volume you would learn if you did an hour and a half for four days as opposed to six hours one day is exponentially higher.

CLIENT: Yeah, I know. It’s insane that I’m not doing that. It’s insane that I’m not doing that. At the same time, so many progress simulators for me to avail myself of. It’s funny. For so long, Elder Scrolls Online you know (inaudible at 00:01:37). You’ve heard of these video games?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. Elder Scrolls Online is the MMO version extension of these games. It’s been coming out for quite some time. I played in the (inaudible at 00:01:48). I’m like “I don’t really like this game, whatever.” [My buddy Charles is like] “It’s really good though once you get past the beginning.” I’m like “Whatever, it’s stupid. It’s $80 and I don’t want to pay $80. It’s dumb and I hate it. I got a free version of this other game. I’ll play with that instead.”

[00:02:04]

Then I went to his house and watched him play it for like two hours. As soon as I asked him like “Oh wait, you can be a werewolf?” I was hooked. I’m like “Fuck it.” So I went home and I downloaded it and now I started playing it. Like there we go, I can be a werewolf, so I better just get going. I could be a vampire if I so chose, but I never liked the way vampires (inaudible at 00:02:27) so I should probably avoid that.

THERAPIST: The werewolf though, huh?

CLIENT: The werewolf is good, the werewolf is good. The only problem with the werewolf is being unable to stop being a werewolf when you want to. You turn into a werewolf for like three minutes. You can feast on things you’ve killed to increase that time though.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay.

CLIENT: Uh huh. So if you’re [going through a place], you need to kill everything. [You’re feeding everything]. So the problem with the werewolf, at least in the other games, is you can’t open chests and other things that you often need to do to finish quests.

[00:03:04]

So you run through the entire place as a werewolf and be like well, now I have to wait for like six minutes to calm down before being a human again. (chuckles) So I have to loot all these corpses (laughter) I’ve left behind. Checking their weightto-gold ratio. If it’s not at least one in ten, you’re done. I walk into town with pairs of hide boots and bracers and go to the store and I’m “Here, do you want ten hide bracers?”

THERAPIST: You get payment for those or something?

CLIENT: Oh yeah, it’s all the stuff you bring to the towns and sell to various merchants who have limited amounts of gold. But anyway, Elder Scrolls Online, I’m playing it and it’s this whole thing. It’s incredibly complex and I’m like oh my God, I’m seeing my progress so well. For the past two days, the plan was to get up, do yoga, look at some math, you know, and then go about my day. It’s not what happened.

[00:04:01]

THERAPIST: You kind of what you were sort of deep in the focus of that?

CLIENT: I left math. I did six hours of math, feeling burned, totally dead. I texted my drug dealer and I’m like “You around?” And he’s like “No, but my roommate is there. He’ll take care of you.” I’m like “Great, I’ll head over there.” I head over and meet the new guy. “Hey, what’s up?” And he’s like “Yeah, I got these two here. [] These guys know their business.

[00:04:56]

What’s funny to me is that I’m smoking some of the best weed available in the country, you know, outside of like a dispensary. The quality, you know. Well, maybe not even. I mean, these are guys with professional grow rooms in New Hampshire, or so I hear. High quality stuff. I smoke it and I’m like fine, you know.

THERAPIST: What do you mean?

CLIENT: Well, like, you know, people it’s like this people are like “Hey, let’s go smoke some weed.” I’m like “Okay, I’ve got some [].” “Holy shit, let’s smoke []. Like wow, that’s powerful weed. Like whoa, I’m fucking wasted.”

THERAPIST: Oh yeah, uh huh.

CLIENT: And I’m like, I don’t get that way.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I used to when I was a kid, but I think a lot of it is through suggestion, you know. Me being with all those other kids who are like “Whoa” this and that, and I’m like “Oh yeah, whoa.”

THERAPIST: There’s a social element to it.

CLIENT: Yeah. And once you start smoking alone, you’re like, oh, it’s not like that. It’s not like that.

THERAPIST: What is it more like?

[00:06:01]

CLIENT: (pause) More grounded in some ways, you know. It’s just like all these various things are happening, but they’re not mystifying. I’m not seeing things. I’m not like experiencing things that, you know, are fantastical.

THERAPIST: Well, was it also, you know, with some of the you almost said like “Right when I get out of the test” well, you didn’t say right after you got out of the test. You said “Afterwards, I want to get some.” What were you feeling after the test?

CLIENT: I was feeling disappointed in myself because I’ve gotten myself in this position, you know. I put myself I was like, listen, I can do this. I’ll go ahead and I’ll cram it and I’ll be bam-bam-bam-bam-bam. And I couldn’t cram it. It was beyond my capability, you know. And that’s when I realized. I’m like, okay, this method will not work.

[00:07:03]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Right? Like I’m going in today and I’ve got 8.1, 8.2, 8.3 and a test on that.

THERAPIST: Today?

CLIENT: Yeah, I got an extension for it.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay.

CLIENT: So my professor was like “Don’t worry.”

THERAPIST: Good, good.

CLIENT: Earlier in the semester he was like “This, this and this.” At this point he’s like -

THERAPIST: Good. He just knows you better.

CLIENT: Yeah, I think yeah, he’s like “Okay, you’re going to do poorly and then you’re going to do better. You’re going to do poorly and then you’re going to do better.” And he’s like “Okay, your first test attempt is never your actual test.”

THERAPIST: Yeah. Let me just say one thing. It is wicked hard to do this.

CLIENT: (chuckles)

THERAPIST: You know, first of all, it’s a hard thing to do. It is really hard to expect, I don’t care who you are, to expect yourself to do statistic stuff solo. If you were in a class, you’d be fine because it would be making you go, and I know that you would be feeling like “Okay, I’m going to class.”

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: “I may not like it, but I’m going to go.”

CLIENT: Yeah.

[00:08:04]

THERAPIST: It’s so much harder.

CLIENT: That’s true. I am doing it pretty hard where -

THERAPIST: You’re doing it a really hard way. You know, you’re doing it because it’s safe. You know, it’s a cost-effective way to do it.

CLIENT: It fits my schedule really well.

THERAPIST: It’s basically an independent I don’t know a lot of people -

CLIENT: It’s an independent study, right.

THERAPIST: It’s an independent study and it’s statistics.

CLIENT: And I’ve got tutors I can talk to. So do you also with independent studies. You’ve got somebody to check in with.

THERAPIST: Yeah, but independent study most of those are usually like you come up with a paper and most people do it in the last month and you can’t with that.

CLIENT: Right, exactly. Whereas I also have (singing) “I miscounted the menus.” I miscounted something I missed in the syllabus. There’s a project. The last few chapters so there’s a cumulative exam, right. The final is chapters six through eight. It’s not really cumulative. It’s the final exam, six, seven and eight, which is the stuff I’ve been struggling with right now.

[00:09:02]

The good news, I have to go over a lot of this anyway. I get to retake chapter six. I have to stick with the 48 on chapter six and seven, and then I’ll have two chances at eight, one of which is today.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And it’s probably going to be my first shot across the bow, you know. Just like, you know, see how much I can do.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I can take it again. But there’s -

THERAPIST: There’s a logic to what you’re doing, absolutely. (chuckles)

CLIENT: Well, yeah, it’s a strategy, you know. The final project is two questions. Well, not really. One is on chapter nine and one is on chapter ten. So you read the rest of eight, nine and ten and then there’s a data set. Like here’s a problem and the data and here’s a problem and the data. It’s like for this problem, here are like five questions, you know. Derive this information from this data.

[00:10:02]

And for this problem, derive this information from this data and display it in the following ways. And that’s the final bit. It’s a take-home test for which you are to receive no outside help. Whatever. Thanks, Eugene (ph). THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:10:14)

CLIENT: Yeah, whatever. No outside help. Are you kidding me? It’s a take-home you gave it to me I’m doing a fucking self-directed learning. What the hell do you think -

THERAPIST: Well, it’s also “wink wink.”

CLIENT: Well, yeah, you’ve got to (inaudible at 00:10:27). They know full well.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But I have to present it in like essentially its own little notebook. Like each problem taking up one page and clearly explained.

THERAPIST: That’s great that you can get Eugene (ph) to help you out. You’ll learn a lot from him I bet.

CLIENT: I hope so. That’s really the thing. When it gets to this final project, [it’s really saying] and that’s actually what I like about it. There’s no practice test for the final either. It’s like these are the things that we’re going to be talking about, so you should be prepared to do anything in chapter six through eight.

[00:11:09]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I’m like okay, it’s going to a hell of a thing, but sure. (pause) Yeah.

THERAPIST: The only thing I’d say is if you you know, my guess is if you’re able to get yourself just out of the house and down there on a day -

CLIENT: Well, yeah.

THERAPIST: you’re going to do it, you know.

CLIENT: Well, that’s the thing. Like on Tuesday, I’ll wake up and I’ll go down there and I’ll -

THERAPIST: Oh, that’s what you did -

CLIENT: That was the idea but then I got high instead.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And stayed home. But again, it’s like this getting high thing. They’re trying it in medical experiments on the West Coast.

[00:12:06]

It doesn’t get you high. But it’s the anti-seizure part of marijuana and they give it to these kids with really bad seizures like (inaudible at 00:12:15).

THERAPIST: Oh, is that right?

CLIENT: Yeah, and it cures them for days. They don’t have they’re comparing with some study. So kids that like have seizures every day and then they all of a sudden don’t have them for a few days. It’s a very low dosage of this stuff. It doesn’t get you high, it’s just this one aspect of the drug. And I’m like well, most mood stabilizers are not well, not most, but a lot of them are anti-seizure.

THERAPIST: Yep.

CLIENT: And I think that it may have applications for bipolar as well.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Oh listen, it seems to be like the mood, the kind of mood-stabilizing qualities of it are very much evident.

CLIENT: For me, right?

THERAPIST: For you, yeah. It’s just that it’s amotivation.

[00:13:05]

CLIENT: Exactly. It’s amotivation, but the mood stabilizer is incredible.

THERAPIST: Yeah, it is.

CLIENT: It’s better than Lithium.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. (inaudible at 00:13:14)

CLIENT: My insurance doesn’t cover it, that’s the only problem. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But some day it might, if I can just fucking get the right doctor to listen to me.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: To get a doctor to listen to me. To have you say to him “Hey, look, the mood stabilizing effect is quite evident.” I’d have at least something on my side. [Every little book is like] “Yeah, we can’t recommend this. [We think it’s terrible].” Well, nothing ever affects me the same way. I trip differently than people. I like smoke weed differently.

THERAPIST: Yep.

CLIENT: You know, we went to you know Tim, (inaudible at 00:13:52) roommate slash boyfriend or whatever his brother was in town for a weekend. I met him. [It was great to meet him]. He talks about his wife is on medical marijuana, you know, and he has like shit marijuana. But his wife needs the good stuff so she takes it, and every now and then he gets to have some [of it] but really he smokes his own crap.

[00:14:14]

I’m like “I don’t care, I’ve got good weed. So I’ll tell you what. I’ll go roll a joint and bring it back and we’ll watch The Desolation of Smaug which he’s got a copy of. He’s like “Yeah, yeah, okay, great. That would be awesome, thanks.” I’m like “No problem.” So I go and roll a joint and bring it back. We smoke the joint and come back in and dude is messed up. He’s totally high, totally can’t handle his shit. He’s like “Oh wow.” He keeps watching movies like “Is this movie real? Like what’s going on?” I turned to Tim and I’m like “I got your brother way too high. I’m sorry. Like I didn’t know he was a lightweight. Like I didn’t know he was a lightweight.” And I’m passing around [pretty small] weed at this point. I’m not messing around [with a pro].

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: People tell me that. They’re like “Watch it. This stuff will knock you off your ass” and I’m like “Okay, I mean, let’s take a look.”

[00:15:16]

If it’s the first time I’ve smoked in months, probably. Anything will knock me off my ass the first time I’ve smoked in months, you know. Yeah, I’m smoking one of the most famous, strongest breeds, strains in the world.

THERAPIST: Yeah, and it’s not -

CLIENT: And this is it. This is what it looks like, you know.

THERAPIST: Does it the one question I have is does it why do you think you don’t study when you’re high? What is the they almost seem incongruent or something.

CLIENT: Yeah, well I think I’m afraid to. Like I’m worried that nothing will stick and I’ll just be like -

THERAPIST: Oh, okay.

CLIENT: And really what it is, in the first 15 minutes of the experience, that’s when I’m the most fuzzy.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

[00:16:10]

CLIENT: It’s that initial like, okay, yep, okay, I’m becoming high and I’m high, okay. Now dealing with that experience. So what I’ll often do in that period of time is walk somewhere. I like to wake up in the morning and smoke a joint and then walk down here. Supposedly spring is the best time to smoke weed. Spring is the best time to smoke weed. Everything is beautiful and warm and it’s spring and it’s sunny.

THERAPIST: It really allows you to enjoy -

CLIENT: Oh, it just makes it all so much more, you know.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It makes the cold colder, you know. I find myself out there at night, you know, two a.m. in the morning, shivering and smoking a joint, you know. I love smoking joints, what can I say? It’s just -

[00:17:02]

THERAPIST: I think it’s also got a powerful effect on just the kind of things that arise when you’re feeling the way you’re feeling when you’re walking out of that test.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: How -

CLIENT: How drained I felt.

THERAPIST: Drained.

CLIENT: It’s just like the Bilbo Baggins line from the Lord of the Rings Fellowship which is perfect. I forget if they say it in the movie or not, but in the books, Bilbo because the ring doesn’t let you die. This is why (inaudible at 00:17:31). The ring keeps you alive. You know (inaudible at 00:17:35). He’s getting older but he’s not going to die. He tells Gandalf, he says “I feel stretched thin. Like too little butter over too much toast.”

THERAPIST: Too much what?

CLIENT: Too little butter over too much toast.

THERAPIST: Too little butter over too much toast. Huh.

CLIENT: Yeah. It’s a good simile, isn’t it?

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

[00:18:06]

CLIENT: Yeah. And so I felt absolutely drained and Ginny was like “Yeah, your adrenaline, and you went all day and your blood sugar is low and you just expend all this energy.” It’s like I do a ton of walking, so I expend a ton of physical energy and I burn all this mental energy.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I forget that you can burn mental energy, that you can spend so much of your day thinking about something difficult that you can be like, yeah, that was exhausting.

THERAPIST: Oh yeah.

CLIENT: Because so often it’s invigorating, you know. So if I come back from a day working and I’m like “Oh man, what a day, but the shit I did today.”

THERAPIST: [That’s a good point].

CLIENT: It’s like coming back from krav and being like “Yeah, today like I punched a Marine so hard his eyes exploded, you know.” Like what the huh? You know, a dude twice my size. He’s like “I didn’t realize a man your size could punch me that hard. A man your size could punch me that hard.” So be aware of that, you know.

[00:19:02]

I watched (inaudible at 00:19:03) beat this much bigger dude in a wrestling match. (inaudible at 00:19:10). [She’s judo]. She’s just like over and over again. Slam, slam, slam. Slam, slam, slam. She was like “I was just demonstrating to you all how that works. [That under that, there was totally a woman] the whole time.” (chuckles) She’s amazing.

THERAPIST: But she -

CLIENT: Yeah, her technique is incredible, so it’s just like, whatever. And judo is all about weight and the smaller person actually has an advantage in a lot of ways, as long as they don’t get in the worst position ever. But then it gets -

THERAPIST: But there’s something that’s similarly invigorating about studying and -

CLIENT: Well, and going to work.

THERAPIST: Going to work, yeah.

CLIENT: Having those problems to solve and coming home. You know, like “Today was a difficult day [and the following happened] and here’s how I handled them.”

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

[00:20:03]

CLIENT: And I like that about having jobs. Coming home and being like “Here are the issues I tackled today.”

THERAPIST: What did you get on the first test, by the way? When you took it the first time.

CLIENT: Which?

THERAPIST: You got a 48 the second time. What did you get the first time?

CLIENT: Oh, a zero. It was a strategic zero and I was going to do so much better the second time. I was going to go in on Monday and bam, destroy this. And I was going to take eight again because of the zero, but it was getting the end of the day and I was like “I don’t have time. Listen, if I take it today, it’s just gonna, you know “and he’s like “Yeah, take it “

THERAPIST: So you got half of it right.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So what was the half you got right? Can you tell?

CLIENT: You know, I can’t even be sure. At the beginning, probably. The first half. Except for question two which I was like nope, this is out of order, and skipped it entirely. I was like this question is from near the end of the stuff I was reading, so let’s skip it entirely.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay.

CLIENT: Because I was like, I don’t know what this is.

THERAPIST: Oh, is that right?

[00:21:01]

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. So I didn’t waste time. I was like okay, this is something I don’t know. I’m not going to spend more energy trying to figure it out. Let’s see if there’s something else that I do know.

THERAPIST: Yeah, that’s smart.

CLIENT: It’s strategic.

THERAPIST: And you knew that. Like when you were at the end and were kind of trailing off.

CLIENT: I could feel it. I was like, I’m just out. I’m out of gas.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It’s that feeling. It’s that horrible feeling in a fight too. I’m like I’m out of gas.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like I thought, you know, I could do anything. It’s like well your body has limits.

THERAPIST: Yes, that’s right. That’s right. That’s exactly -

CLIENT: It’s an uncomfortable feeling, you know.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It’s uncomfortable. And it’s interesting. A lot of people say this about jujitsu and rolling in general. That’s what you call it when you just jujitsu or wrestle. You don’t strike each other or (inaudible at 00:21:49). They say for men it’s very difficult for most men to tap, to submit to another man. Like you actually want -

THERAPIST: Yes.

[00:22:03]

CLIENT: That’s not hard for me. In fact I’m like “You got it, tap, good, respect it, next.” Move on, you know.

THERAPIST: That’s what you did with the second question. You’re like “Tap and move on.”

CLIENT: Yeah, I guess that’s true.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: This is true, yeah.

THERAPIST: It’s good to see that though.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And it wasn’t because -

CLIENT: You’re right. I got half of it right.

THERAPIST: It wasn’t because you lack the intellect. It’s because you ran out of steam.

CLIENT: I haven’t practiced the tools enough to know which tool to use at the right time.

THERAPIST: Absolutely.

CLIENT: And I think it’s that normal distributions are really a Swiss army knife. That’s how they describe them. The Swiss army knife of statistics, normal distributions, because everything becomes a normal distribution after 30 samples or 50 or 100. Like this is just it’s crazy. It’s the law of the universe. The law of the universe tends towards averages, you know. To a wide range of variety. (pause) Yeah, I mean -

[00:23:02]

THERAPIST: Yeah, so you’ve got the so the first one though went well? The first question?

CLIENT: The first question was alright. The second one was awful. Nine I think I got half of, you know. It’s kind of, going from question to question, “I think this is the way the equation is supposed to be used, so I’m doing it this way.” And others I’m like “Twelve? I should never have 12.”

THERAPIST: That was an answer or something?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That doesn’t sound right?

CLIENT: Yeah, you can’t have 12. You can’t have 12-point-something. You can have .12, that’s fine.

THERAPIST: Oh, it was -

CLIENT: Yeah, you can have 12 percent but you can’t I mean, every answer in statistics is between zero and one.

THERAPIST: Oh, I see, yeah. So you might’ve missed just a decimal point or something.

CLIENT: Yeah or two. I can see that, but how did I fuck that up, right? I mean, it’s like clearly I made a mistake somewhere.

THERAPIST: That’s a good question. What was the bug?

CLIENT: Yeah, if I had two more percentage points they go over the test with me and tell me what I did wrong.

THERAPIST: Oh, that’s right. They don’t go over it with you.

[00:24:02]

CLIENT: Yeah. I might be able to convince them to go over it because I got a 48, but I need to look at it.

THERAPIST: Yeah, exactly.

CLIENT: I need to know where I fucked up.

THERAPIST: So did you have so you tried to get through all the material. Were you able to get through all the material and stuff?

CLIENT: Yeah, I got through it but it’s not sticking as well. I can do it though. I was like okay, but I know the math for these, you know. I’m thinking I know a lot of the underlying math. I’m like okay, you want me to do stuff, always convert everything to a z-score and then look at these charts. Do some addition, subtraction and boom, there you go.

And there’s that, but now there’s other stuff which is like finding mu when sigma is unknown or finding sigma when mu is unknown. And this is algebra essentially, except there’s some other stuff taken into consideration and other formulas to know. Essentially the algebraic formula [is to discover these things]. They’re like “We’re already doing that for you” because they are “but here’s the one to use then.” So those weren’t as bad, right?

[00:25:08]

THERAPIST: Those are the ones that came easier?

CLIENT: Yeah, especially when it was the end of the notes packet that you’re allowed to take with you with the tables and things. There’s a handwritten page in the back that he’s written that’s part of the test. He’s like “Here’s how to do continuity corrections.” I’m like “Ah, good, because that’s part of the test, and I’m glad you wrote it out because that’s not something I would just remember, you know, after all the stuff I’ve been blasting through.”

THERAPIST: (chuckles)

CLIENT: I’m like, I remember that there’s two ways to do it. One in which you do and one in which you don’t.

THERAPIST: Yeah, it’s better to you don’t want to spend your brain power trying to memorize stuff like that.

CLIENT: Right, when you don’t even need to.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It’s recognizing which tool. And that’s what the next few weeks are going to be about, is figuring out what the next tool is.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know, and which tool to use. And I’m going to keep going to Eugene be like “Okay, this is what I’m doing, is this right?” Cause I need to get 100 on this, you know, because I miscounted [them anyways].

[00:26:09]

But the good news is that means each of my tests counts for a few points less than I thought it did. Because it’s actually seven things weighted at 60 percent instead of six things.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: So instead of everything being ten points, that makes it closer to nine.

THERAPIST: And they only give you one shot to take the test over again?

CLIENT: Yeah. And then the final is the final. You turn in the final.

THERAPIST: And that’s only one shot?

CLIENT: Yeah, that’s only one shot. I’ve got most (inaudible at 00:26:40) that and the final.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay. There’s only one more test, the project, and then the final.

CLIENT: Then the final, yeah.

THERAPIST: And you get two shots at today’s test, right?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Yeah, I get two shots at today’s. I’m going to take the morning shot today and see how I do.

THERAPIST: Yeah. What’s this do you know what this chapter is on?

[00:27:04]

CLIENT: (sighing) (pause) We started with (inaudible at 00:27:08).

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: We’re going to testing hypotheses now.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Which is fun. That’s science. I like science.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And again, the thing is, I was telling Pete that statistics is so interesting and it’s so fun, but it’s also so difficult. And again, real difficulty is which tool am I using because they’re all subtly different, you know. And it’s really about looking at the question and figuring out okay, which blade on the Swiss army knife am I looking for?

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: And there’s a fuck-ton of them. And if you use the wrong one, you’re going to get 12.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like 12 is not an answer. Every answer is between zero and one. Every answer in statistics is between zero and one. Everything. Every single number you’ll ever need, between zero and one.

[00:28:07]

THERAPIST: Yeah, so you’re okay, okay. It’s a lot like the way, you know, it’s a lot like I was thinking about the krav and all.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know, you need it takes a while to figure out how to combat certain things and certain maneuvers.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know, you might know the specific -

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: move but where do you use it and where to enlist it.

CLIENT: And with krav, I have so much training in fighting in general, you know. I have instinct. Like “Oh, you grabbed my wrist. The wrist break didn’t work? Fine, then I’m just going to fuck you up.” Like “Oh, you’re putting two hands on my wrist so I can’t get away? Well, you’ve given up two weapons. I still have three. You lose.” I have brutality to fall back on in krav. I’ve got that aggression. I have that ability to turn off my empathy for another human being and be like “I no longer care how much I hurt you.”

[00:29:03]

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: The point is to make you want to stop fighting.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: And, you know, that sort of thing I can do in krav that I cannot that I have not yet figured out how to do with mathematics.

THERAPIST: Yeah, what’s the analog for math?

CLIENT: Yeah, what indeed. Well, it’s having done it.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: It’s practice, it’s confidence. Like Victor doing dice math in his head. Victor converting fractions to decimals in his head. I’m like “How do you do this?” and he’s like “Oh, I just memorize most of them.”

THERAPIST: But you memorize, you take -

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: it doesn’t -

CLIENT: Yeah. Like I know what eight into six is because I can just memorize that.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like when he’s bored, he just does primes in his head, you know. When he gets up into like the four thousands he sort of starts losing focus. He’s like “Okay, that was pretty good.”

[00:30:03]

THERAPIST: So you but if you go on today, you don’t have to take it at there’s no time limit when you have to take it. Like there’s not you don’t have to take it by 12 or something.

CLIENT: No, no, I can take it today. So I’m going to go in and I’m going to I think this is what I’m going to do. I’m going to go in. On my way from here I’m going to stop and get some snack or breakfast. I’m going to go in. I’m going to study. I’m going to study 8.23. I’m going to walk back to Georgetown. I’m going to get some more food. I’m going to come back and take the test and then go home.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Take breaks too while you’re studying. Give yourself some time to refuel.

CLIENT: I’ll try. I listen to Mozart while I do math. I swear to God that helps.

THERAPIST: People really find that if you take breaks, it helps your brain consolidate information.

CLIENT: Especially when you have whatever form of adult ADD [I have].

THERAPIST: It’s for everybody though.

CLIENT: Yeah, that’s true. You’re right. But especially (inaudible at 00:30:56).

THERAPIST: Yeah, they do.

CLIENT: But I suppose it’s just as applicable for everybody.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

[00:31:02]

CLIENT: And it’s difficult to do.

THERAPIST: It is difficult to get yourself to step back from it.

CLIENT: But I do have a phone and it is fully charged and it is full of games like Threes.

THERAPIST: Or take a walk. Do something physical.

CLIENT: Yeah, just get up and walk around the place.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Well, that’s what lunch will be. It’s a good 20-minute walk.

THERAPIST: That’s a good option.

CLIENT: Up and back, you know.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Maybe I can talk Bridget into going on one of these walks. That’s always fun.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Bridget saw my mother. Bridget saw my mother. [And Kevin saw my mother]. Because Kevin’s father was in the hospital for a few days. He had a tooth infection that got into the rest of him somehow. So they had him in the hospital and (inaudible at 00:31:44). And all the information was coming through texts from my mother. So who knows. So I got a text from mom and she’s like “James is in the ER. Please tell Kevin.” Sure. “Kevin, your dad is in the ER. Check the text from mom.”

THERAPIST: Oh, because she’s been trying to text him?

[00:32:02]

CLIENT: Yeah, and [he’s getting a little bit tired of it].

THERAPIST: Is that right? [She ignores him.]

CLIENT: Oh totally. That’s just -

THERAPIST: Good move.

CLIENT: He does not think about he has said many times he does not think about his past. He’s like “If I thought about it, I would just be angry.”

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: So why think about it, you know?

THERAPIST: Good question.

CLIENT: He learned to compartmentalize at a very early age. He had a room he retreated to and he stayed there. And she let him be there because -

THERAPIST: Smart kid.

CLIENT: Yeah, well there you go. Like Victor said when I was trying to explain my brother [to Pete and Stephen when we were all drunk one night]. Victor is like “Yeah, yeah, it’s like he’s got “ He like points to my brain and he’s like “He’s got this but now he’s got Fred telling him what to do as well.” And he’s like “He just does anything you tell him to do. In two weeks he does everything.”

THERAPIST: (laughter) That’s like a computer.

CLIENT: Yeah, he is like a computer. He describes himself that way when he was a kid.

[00:33:05]

THERAPIST: How about that.

CLIENT: His brain was like a sphere, he said. And everything within it had a file and he could go into any point in the sphere and get it.

THERAPIST: Is that right?

CLIENT: That’s how he described it, you know. But everything had a file and a place.

THERAPIST: He really mapped that out in his head, huh?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. So anyway, she goes to see my mother. [So Bridget was like “You should have let me know. I would’ve come with you”] because she brought the kids as well. Not Irene because Justin has said “I really would prefer that Irene never be in the presence of your mother.”

THERAPIST: Why Irene?

CLIENT: It’s his daughter with my sister.

THERAPIST: Oh, his yeah, I’ve got it. Just one that they share -

CLIENT: And then they discuss, he’s like “I really don’t feel comfortable Irene being near her ever because she’s clearly insane.” And Bridget is like “Yeah, that makes perfect sense. There’s no reason for her to get at all involved.”

[00:34:07]

Like the kids want to see their grandmother, so they’re going to go and see her. So Bridget is like “She was on her best behavior because she knows from her text conversations that as soon as she goes from beyond quirky to anything, I will completely stop communication.” And she says “At times, I even [if she goes crazy on me] I’ll text back ‘stop’ and she stops.”

THERAPIST: She does?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: Well, she’s learning. She’s like “Well, I want contact with you.” It’s like “Well, yeah.”

THERAPIST: That’s really good.

CLIENT: And tomorrow we’ll both occasionally just send something back if she’s normal. Like “Oh, yeah, happy birthday” or “Happy this.”

THERAPIST: Yeah, [that’s wild.]

CLIENT: You know, like “I’m sorry mom and dad are dead,” you know. Stuff like that.

THERAPIST: But then you draw a line. You say “stop” -

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: “I will not respond.”

[00:35:03]

CLIENT: I told Bridget. She was like “Yeah, it was really nice actually, you know, because she was fine and we all” Of course, the funny thing is they’re coming down there, and as soon as they come down, my mom is like “Your timing is so good because James is just being discharged right now, so we’ll all go to his house and hang out there.” And then Bridget and I are just laughing and laughing. We’re like “How long has she been making James sit in the hospital, you know, waiting for us to come down so that she can get him discharged and we can all go over to his house to hang out?”

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: Totally manipulative. This is exactly her sort of bullshit.

THERAPIST: Leaving him in the hospital.

CLIENT: Yeah, well, you know, and being like “Oh, you shouldn’t go. Let the kids come down. Oh, they’re on the way. You know, we should get you out of here. You’re fine. You don’t need to be here anymore. And besides, they can see your house and wouldn’t that be nice, and oh James would love [to see you]. I never see my grandchildren ever [and no one is even here] and the hospital would scare them and be weird for them. Oh James, you’re fine now and you can totally go home right now.”

[00:36:05]

THERAPIST: She might wait she might influence him to wait until -

CLIENT: Totally manipulative.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: “You should rest. You should rest.”

THERAPIST: “You’re still sick” or something. “You’re still sick.”

CLIENT: A master manipulator.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: She’s so good at it. So yeah, they all go there and they meet her. She tries to peddle Kevin this like movie about some autistic child. She’s like “Oh, it’s about a teenage boy just like you.” And Bridget is like “You know he’s 26, right?” (laughter) He’s 26 years old. He’s a grown-ass man. And James just kind of laughs at stuff and laughs, you know, because that’s the way he deals with things.

THERAPIST: James does?

CLIENT: James. He’s like “Huh huh huh huh huh.” You know, like whenever someone points out my mom being crazy, he laughs, you know.

THERAPIST: Yeah, your mom really has this idea of Kevin being -

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:37:00) in her head.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

[00:37:03]

CLIENT: For years she assumed that she was the only person who had to teach him anything which is why he never learned anything. He never went to school. It’s like one time he wanted to go to school, so she sent him to retard class.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: On purpose.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: On purpose.

THERAPIST: Yeah, “You need me. I’m the only one “

CLIENT: Mmmm-hmmm. Yeah. “Because when you go to school, you have to be with these people because you’re like these people.”

THERAPIST: Yeah because you’re (inaudible at 00:37:25).

CLIENT: Like with these mentally challenged, you know, retarded and violent kids. He’s like “I really hated school. I hated it.” Yep, you made sure of that. You were very clear. He went to school his very first day of school, sent him to kindergarten. She wanted to give it a shot. He punched a kid right in the nose and bloodied him up. Because his entire life, as soon as he was able to move I even said to myself, she’s never going to hit him. (pause)

[00:38:02]

So (chuckles) excuse me. I said to myself, she’s never going to hit him. So as soon as he was a baby, as soon as he had excellent control over his own body, I would wrestle with him a little bit. I played with him like you’d play with a puppy. “Oh, can you turn yourself over and do this little thing?” The more he was able to grow, I’d be like “Hey, can you throw a punch?” so he’d throw a punch. “If someone tries to throw a punch at you, here’s how you block it. And here’s how you throw kicks.”

And the older he got, you know, even when he was three years old, I’m like “Okay, I have a knife. What are you going to do? Okay, I’ve got a baseball bat. What do you do?” And I remember the time he got a baseball bat. I swing the wiffle bat at him, you know, he like grabs it and he comes in and he spins and gets it. He grabs it tight and spins around and whacks me in the back of the head with his wiffle bat. My world was “whoa” for a minute. I was like he pulls back again and I pull back and stop and I catch him and I’m like “Okay, that was good. Like that was really good.”

THERAPIST: Were you preparing him for your mom?

[00:39:02]

CLIENT: (laughter) Yeah. I was like “No, no one is going to hit you.” And his very first day, you know and I taught him, you know. I was like “People don’t get to hit you. You hit back. You always hit back and here’s how.” And I pushed him. I pushed him. He would get angry and angry. And he’d attack me sometimes, he would be so angry. Like I always stopped him but I was like “This is good. You need to know this.”

I remember one day, he was on the piano bench. He was small and we were like kind of [I was antagonizing him] and he leapt back directly off the piano bench and fell straight down and slammed his nose on the edge of it and it starts to bleed. He looks down and he’s like “Oh!” and he’s freaking out because he’s never bled before. He’s bleeding from his nose a lot. And I spoke to him and I’m like “Trust me. I can fix this.” He immediately stops crying. I just took his head and pushed his upper lip like up into his nose. I saw this in The Karate Kid and it actually works and it stops the nosebleed. But that look in his eyes, that was the trust, like “Okay.”

So his very first day of school, this bigger kid like bullies him and pushes him. My kid brother, wham, punches him straight in the nose.

[00:40:15]

THERAPIST: Is that right?

CLIENT: Other kid, bloody nose, goes down, cries. I’m like “Good.”

THERAPIST: That’s then what did they do? Did they -

CLIENT: There were no repercussions.

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: I mean, it’s like one kid pushed another, other kid punched him. Boys will be boys.

THERAPIST: Okay, right.

CLIENT: Boys will be boys.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah, preparing him.

CLIENT: Right, yeah, to fight.

THERAPIST: To fight and not to get hit.

CLIENT: Yeah, and to be okay with being hit.

THERAPIST: And to be okay with being hit, yeah.

CLIENT: It’s not like he was -

THERAPIST: Yeah, that’s right. It doesn’t psychologically -

CLIENT: Yeah, I pushed him. I pushed him. I never hurt him, to my knowledge or intentionally. But I pushed him, certainly.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I was thinking like that you really knew in some way that vulnerability in that sphere is not safe.

[00:41:09]

CLIENT: (laughter) Yeah. No, you need to be ready for this.

THERAPIST: You’ve got to be ready for it.

CLIENT: Yeah. I remember when he was three years old. It was the last time I was ever staying with my mom. It was the summer and I needed to stay there, and she put a mattress on the floor of the pantry. She’s like “This is your room.” There’s no door, there’s no privacy, there’s nothing. But she’s like “This is your room.” I lived there for the summer [before I moved in with my uncle] (inaudible at 00:41:30).

THERAPIST: You just had to stay with her?

CLIENT: Yeah. And it was after she divorced James. And Kevin was three or so and he screams at her. He’s like “Mommy, you’re a bitch” and he runs away. She went to go after him and I’m like “Stop. I’ll handle this.” So I follow him and I closed the door. I go to the room and he’s on the top bunk and he’s crying. I’m like “Kevin, listen to me. You’re right. Mom’s a bitch, but you cannot tell her that to her face.”

[00:42:01]

And like that, he completely calmed down. Just like, “No, you’ve got it. You’ve got it right. But we can’t say this. This is something that -”

THERAPIST: Yeah, if you do, you’re really going to see something (inaudible at 00:42:21).

CLIENT: Yeah. And he doesn’t remember any of this, you know. He doesn’t remember anything. He chose to forget, you know.

THERAPIST: That’s a hell of a lot to remember.

CLIENT: Yeah, I suppose it is. This is the point in the day where I come down from the first I would normally be out smoking a joint about now, but I’m going to math instead which is good. I’m going to walk and that’s going to metabolize some more. I’m going to drink some coffee and sit down and do some math and take my first shot at this and do the best I can. Keep working, keep working.

[00:43:07]

THERAPIST: Yeah, well that means then that if you do today and say whatever you get, then the second time you go in you’ll have even more time to study before the -

CLIENT: Yeah, and again, the cumulative and the project, that’s what’s giving me hope. That’s just making me think I am going to learn statistics. By time I’m done with this, I will know everything chapter six onward is the real course, if you ask me. Everything before that is just terms and like some basic tools, you know. Here’s a variety of some different types of graphs you might use, you know. Whereas instead, everything after that is okay, here’s what actually statistics is. Here’s this thing about a curve. It’s like you -

THERAPIST: Yeah, listen, you just need it’s like swimming, krav, whatever. You need time to learn the strokes and to learn the moves.

[00:44:05]

CLIENT: You know, [I might not swim but I can] doggy paddle.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But that’s not going to get me very far.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It’s not going to get you out of (inaudible at 00:44:11).

THERAPIST: Yeah, it doesn’t yeah, it happens through working at it. I know that you can do it. It’s just a matter of time.

CLIENT: It’s just a matter of doing it. It’s a matter of doing it every day, at least every other day.

THERAPIST: I think that’s the hard part about this, is that it’s not -

CLIENT: It is. It is. The thing is just getting up, every day it’s like the goal is this, wake up and don’t have that first joint. Wake up instead, eat a yogurt, do some yoga, read some math, you know, and then go have your joint. If you can do those things, you accomplished so much today already.

THERAPIST: Is there anybody that can help you kind of stick to that in some way? (laughter) No?

CLIENT: [Nobody helps].

THERAPIST: (laughter) No?

CLIENT: No, you know I have problems with authority.

THERAPIST: I was thinking Ginny. You listen -

CLIENT: I immediately reject -

THERAPIST: Is that right?

CLIENT: any attempt at being told what to do.

[00:45:05]

THERAPIST: Ah.

CLIENT: And I refuse to introduce that into a relationship and be like “I need you to be my taskmaster. I need you to be like someone telling me to do something.” No, absolutely not. The second we make that agreement, then we are enemies.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Is there a way that she could come at it with you as opposed to a taskmaster type of way? A reminder or something?

CLIENT: No, nope, nope, not even that because that just makes me be like “No, I’m not doing it right now.”

THERAPIST: Oh, okay, okay.

CLIENT: “For fuckssake, I’ll do it when I do it.”

THERAPIST: Oh, okay.

CLIENT: “Jesus. No, definitely don’t tell me what to do.” That’s why I need a job with a high level of autonomy. I know what to do.

THERAPIST: (laughter)

CLIENT: And the job actually needs to matter. And this matters, just to a point where it’s not like I’ve already solved the problem, whereas see what needs to be done. I’m like okay, these are things which are in the realm of possibility. I retake the first test. I can get eight more points on that and get 100. Or I retake the 81 and get 100.

[00:46:10]

I retake the 84 and get a 100 on a 15-point test, so that’s great. So I get 15 points instead of 10. You know, I’ll retake this one and get 100 instead, and the final retake it and get 100. And the final project, get 100 because there’s no reason I can’t get 100 on the final project. I’m like “Eugene, check my math, please.”

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: “If I’m wrong, tell me why, you know.” (pause) Fix the problem. Yeah, so that’s the goal, man, is like wake up and don’t have that first joint. Have that afterwards. But again, the mood-stabilizing effect is evident, is it not? You know, don’t I seem better?

[00:47:03]

I look at my chart and I’m so much better, you know. On this stuff especially. As soon as I got this, I was talking to my sister and I was like “I think I may have found it. Like this might be the strain.”

THERAPIST: Well, the trick is that, you know, the thing that I also notice about it is that it’s got a certain level of efficacy that can kind of like I don’t think it’s the there’s other properties to it. The mood stabilizer is definitely there. What I hear too is that it kind of is there’s something about the way that it means that it’s harder to get back into the kind of work of statistics or something like that. The work of everyday life. That’s the trick.

CLIENT: It makes me mentally tired after a while, you know. [It can do some things but] it can make me tired.

THERAPIST: I mean, if it was helpful and helping you because I think the mood stabilizer part is very helpful in terms of like just being able to study. It brings up a lot of anxiety certainly. Studying will. But I think for you, especially you notice a level of intensity that’s quite evident.

[00:48:16]

CLIENT: Are you saying that this is a negative or a positive?

THERAPIST: No, it’s well, it is what it is. It just does it. The negative part for you is that it keeps you from studying.

CLIENT: Right. It’s amotivational.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Right. So that’s the difficulty. Whereas Lithium makes me want to kill myself.

THERAPIST: Even though Lithium was -

CLIENT: Right, but there you go. It’s like whatever this is, this is bipolar 1, bipolar 2, Tourettes and conceived during a month-long acid trip. Who knows what shit is going on in here, you know. It’s so much more complex than anything (inaudible at 00:49:51).

THERAPIST: (laughter) Yeah, right, I know.

CLIENT: Yeah.

[00:49:05]

THERAPIST: Yeah, no, it’s complex because it doesn’t it’s very helpful to mood -

CLIENT: You’re right, it is, and if I could just get a doctor to write me a prescription for Northern Lights.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Just fucking write me a prescription and I’ll go to the dispensary and say “Give me Northern Lights. That’s what works.”

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Give me an ounce at a time, you know. Boom, go from there. If I’m working, an ounce lasts me four months. When I was working, I had a $1200 a year weed habit.

THERAPIST: And you felt like you were working and it didn’t affect your work.

CLIENT: Yeah, no, people were telling me I was amazing. People were wicked impressed.

THERAPIST: It wasn’t amotivational then.

CLIENT: Well, this comes after work.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay.

CLIENT: I wake up, I go to work, boom boom boom, you know.

THERAPIST: Well, I think the other thing maybe, you know, might be saying too much about it being amotivational as opposed to just the way this class is structured. I mean, it’s just hard for people to -

CLIENT: I mean, there’s the amotivational stuff and other parts too. It makes it easier to do something else.

[00:50:09]

THERAPIST: Now that’s the -

CLIENT: It’s like (inaudible at 00:50:11) are just so much more interesting right now.

THERAPIST: Well, it might be that you can figure out a way to get around with is there a way to combat the amotivational stuff while smoking?

CLIENT: Coffee helps but I can’t drink too much coffee because of my stomach.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: The caffeine kind of like I do that. I’ll get caffeine and start focusing.

THERAPIST: Yeah, no, caffeine.

CLIENT: But again, too much caffeine, too little sleep, too much weed, too much brain-work.

THERAPIST: Yeah, that’s (inaudible at 00:50:39).

CLIENT: Too little butter on too much toast, you know. It’s stretched thin.

THERAPIST: That’s right, that’s right.

CLIENT: But I’ve got a nice brilliant walk ahead of me and a nice lighter hoodie. I’m going to take the subway to Concord.

THERAPIST: Yep.

CLIENT: From Concord, you know, today when I leave I’m going to take the 80 home. I’m going to walk to Concord to the 80 and let that take me all the way to the park across from my house instead of just walking another three miles.

[00:51:12]

What I realized listening to Siri, I’m walking to my dealer’s house and she’s like, you know, “Turn down the street, then walk for one-quarter mile.” I’m like “That’s a quarter mile? Jesus Christ, how many miles have I walked today?”

THERAPIST: (chuckles)

CLIENT: Like how many miles to do I walk?

THERAPIST: Does that seems shorter?

CLIENT: Yeah, that’s like nothing. That’s nothing. A quarter mile? Whatever. I’m like really, that’s a quarter mile?

THERAPIST: I’ll bet you walk a lot.

CLIENT: I do.

THERAPIST: Alright. Good luck.

CLIENT: Thank you. If such a thing exists.

THERAPIST: If such a thing exists.

CLIENT: (chuckles) But wouldn’t it be cool if? [I think] that’s how every single religious conversation should begin. “Wouldn’t it be cool if?” Alright, Carl. See you Monday, yes?

[00:52:05]

THERAPIST: Alright, Monday. Yes sir.

END TRANSCRIPT