TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: How have your days been?

THERAPIST: Good, good. (chuckles) Yeah, what's the occasion?

CLIENT: Oh, just going on to look at some agencies, (inaudible/blocked).

THERAPIST: Okay, uh-huh.

CLIENT: Yeah, it's curious. This weekend I had like, a big... It's Memorial Day and I sort of have a Hamptons family, so a lot of the family was down there. I also had an option to go to like a retreat in Maine, which I initially agreed to, but then decided I needed this weekend to try and, you know, get some sort of strategy together and some money together. [00:01:08]

So I had my sister calling. She's got that boyfriend who she probably wants to marry. He was visiting down to the Hamptons, and so she called me, sort of saying, you know, "Come down to the Hamptons with us." I mean, I think the implication was, when she called, that... I mean, I was riding my bike across that bridge I told you about. So I said I'd call her back, and she called me back right as I got home. She said, you know, "Come down to the Hamptons."

For her, I think she assumed she could persuade me; and indeed, my brother sort of said, you know, "Sally (ph) is coming," because they know I like my sister. But... I couldn't do it; and I sort of sensed that that hurt her, because I realized after the call that it's something important to her, this guy that she's sort of showing to her family. [00:02:08]

It was one of those good moments and... (mutters). It's an ample tragedy because, you know, I really couldn't do it. I don't have the resources. I mean, if I were better situated, if I were more stable and I could have, then I would have enjoyed the weekend. But the fact is, I just could not.

THERAPIST: More stable...?

CLIENT: More stable financially.

THERAPIST: So like, if you, yeah, if you have a train ticket out or whatever of Providence?

CLIENT: Well, I need to use the time to get myself together.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay, yeah. I got it. (pause) But what, yeah, what... "ample tragedy"?

CLIENT: Well, because, you know, both people's points of view are completely comprehensible and justified, and yet they can't really connect or meet. There is a conflict; like a crappy tragedy or crappy play will have, you know, someone, a character, who's just kind of evil or like, you can't really appreciate the structure of their decisions and motivations. (therapist affirms) [00:03:33]

But a good tragedy owes to characters who have sort of differing agendas and then differing motivations and you can pick up. I think so, anyway. And that's the other thing I was referring to. Also, I couldn't really say that I, you know, "I'm not stable enough to go," because, I just can't do that. You know, I can't say, "I'm weak right now, I need to sort of get my life together, so I can't go down there."

THERAPIST: Yeah, how come? What are you...?

CLIENT: Why couldn't I say that? (therapist affirms) (pause) It's just not something you say. It would only, that wouldn't help anything (ph).

THERAPIST: What's going to make her... understand? That wasn't like... Well, maybe it was other feelings, but I was thinking about, you know, it was because you didn't want to see her or something like that. [00:04:29]

CLIENT: Right. Well, I mean, the fact is, I really didn't want to see her anyway. I don't like her boyfriend.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay.

CLIENT: I think he's insufficiently polite. I don't know him well at all, and I only met him once. But he's not... Also, I didn't appreciate the implication that I would have, you know, nothing to do, and that she could just call me up and I jump on board and go down. (therapist acknowledges) (pause) Although I would have, if I could have. You know, but I... I'd like to try and answer your question, but I think I have. You just... that's not something I would do. You don't ever talk about your own weak points.

THERAPIST: You don't? [00:05:22]

CLIENT: No. I don't see the point in it. (therapist acknowledges) I also realized, I mean, I don't think, I think some of these sessions, I re-thought your query... I'm not sure what'd be (ph) the effect of it all, to talk about it. Uh, so, I'm on the surface even now, like I'm not really deep into it. But you asked whether this was sort of a performance, like akin to the way I felt I was performing in college, like a series of performances.

THERAPIST: Oh!

CLIENT: Performances like doing... Yeah, I felt fake, I felt fraudulent. I felt like I was performing, and so you asked whether this was a performance, too. And it might be, I don't know.

THERAPIST: Oh!

CLIENT: I think like, the difference between this performance and that (if it is one), is that I don't feel as bad about it, perhaps because you're very obliging, but... (therapist affirms) It might be the same thing, it's just not as... [00:06:32]

THERAPIST: Did it seem like I was sort of saying you've been faking it here? Is that how it kind of, was that kind of the implication?

CLIENT: That wasn't what you intended, no. (therapist affirms) But that could be true.

THERAPIST: I guess where I was coming at it was, that if I ask you certain questions or coming in here, do you feel like there is a way that I'm asking you to perform? In other words, you got, in terms of you telling me, like you're asked to do something. Not so much in the performance as an acting kind of thing, but more like a demand upon you.

CLIENT: Well, I mean you let me just stay quiet for pretty long periods of time, so... I don't know. I certainly wouldn't put you in the wrong, except in those instances where you seem to be kind of self-conscious and sort of wonder whether you're going... you're stepping on. (therapist affirms) Mistreating me in some way. (pause) I just... [00:07:47]

THERAPIST: Yeah, no, absolutely. I wondered if something, if like last time, I said something that came across as like, you know, if it seemed to you I was telling you you were being phony or something. (pause) And you know, I guess it's my intention to clarify that that's not... I mean, if you're feeling that way, that's one thing, but that's not what my intention was. It's much more of the... I felt there was something about when I said, "Say something!" What did I say? At the very end, I said, "Can you say something more about that?"

CLIENT: Oh, yeah, that was it. I perceived that as like a dick move, just the way you said it.

THERAPIST: A dick move, right!

CLIENT: "Yeah, you're out of time, but just say one more thing."

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah, yeah. Right, you're right.

CLIENT: And that was like a perf... I did. I said, "Well, now I feel like I'm performing!" [00:08:47]

THERAPIST: Right!

CLIENT: But before that, I thought the question, I sort of shuffled it off, but it may have been pertinent (therapist affirms) because... One thing that occurred to me is I... I mean obviously, I can't just sit here and say nothing, and I don't expect to be tended like, by... I don't expect to, my wounds to miraculously, if any, or my troublesome esotericism to sort of correct themselves without me taking some active role in the process. (pause) [00:09:33]

But... It occurred to me that I don't really have faith in being helped. I think we've covered that. So, coming here I think... I don't have a long-term plan of help, I don't expect to be helped. So what I do instead is basically use you as a lever to make me feel better about myself. That, in a way, is sort of a performance. I mean, I have...

THERAPIST: It's all helping, too, I guess.

CLIENT: Is it helping or...?

THERAPIST: It's probably helping in some way, yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah, sure. But it is sort of fake and superficial. I mean, I come in here, I might, through some complicated series of stories, I self-aggrandize myself (sometimes not very complicated). But it's not... I mean, that's what I'm saying. That's how quickly a performance is, that I just come in here and present some favorable position. Not that I plan it ahead of time, because I never do. [00:10:40]

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. No, you reference this a bit.

CLIENT: Yeah. It's not like I'm... I mean, maybe it's because it's just me talking mostly; and I mean, when you talk, you just re-phrase what I say or sort of... You have good comments sometimes, but it's all about me. It's not like you're putting a spin on the game and I could say, "Oh, I share what you're feeling," because it's not yours. You talk about me.

THERAPIST: I'm just talking about you, right.

CLIENT: So... (under breath) what was I going to say? So, in some sense, it might be like a structural impossibility for me to be natural all the time. Like, I don't feel like this sort of, this mode of me talking about myself and making myself feel good in the short term, is very genuine. Now that I've thought about it. [00:11:38]

So, I understand your question. It wasn't at all an accusatory question. It was something... I mean I talked about my experience in college and I said... I got to a point where... I was doing well like, I was proficient, but you know, every, all my scholarly interactions... Really the only interactions I had with other people, they felt like a performance. They felt, even when they were good, there wasn't any organic thrill to them. There wasn't any...

Like when you work outside, even if you dig a hole and you pile up a mound of dirt, you feel good afterwards because that's something you've done. I didn't feel that way. I felt like... like I'd come up with great conclusions (ph) that touched other people, but I felt... fraudulent and (inaudible). So you suggested maybe that I feel like I'm performing here and it... it could be true. I mean, it's just so easier (ph) on the ears. (chuckles) [00:12:58]

THERAPIST: Well, I think, too, though that... I'm just thinking about how it's... it's not that, it seems to me that it doesn't feel like it's a good idea to talk about the things that trouble you, or that you want help with or, your weak points. (client affirms) Like as you were just saying, what good does it do to say anything about weak points?

And yet, it seems to me like, there are some things that you're feeling not so great about. (client affirms) And... yet, you know, I think especially based upon, it seems to me like something about your mother's response (as well as your dad's response) to things that you might have been struggling with. There was almost like a blind eye turned. Not that they turned a blind eye to them or just couldn't help, but some of that has created a degree of like skepticism, whether or not people 1) want to hear it or 2) can be helpful. The last part, see, I mean, that last part just is more conjecture than, but I... (client affirms) Something about... [00:14:32]

CLIENT: I think I'm going to treat harms (ph) the same way; just sort of just, not look at them. (chuckles)

(pause 00:14:40 to 00:15:19)

Did you ever have someone who like... Tell me if you get a sense for this character or not; it's a yes or no question but like, you know the character that sort of... It's usually a guy, but they'll tell you lies. They're just white lies, might be like, dumb stories; but they get a sort of like, a simple pleasure out of, you know, convincing you that something (chuckles) is true when it's not. Like I had a boyhood friend who would sort of make fun of me for being gullible. He would tell these sort of lies. (therapist affirms) But, I mean, that's not all they're doing, but there is some sort of... It's not even a character, it's just a, it's like a fleeting quality. Someone who derives some satisfaction from... [00:16:19]

THERAPIST: Getting one over on someone?

CLIENT: Yeah. For no reason at all.

THERAPIST: Other than the enjoyment of it in some way?

CLIENT: Something like that, yeah. Do you know what I'm talking about?

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: Okay. (pause) Because my roommate, David, did that the other day, or last night; or I felt that way. You know, there is no way to know. Maybe with the whole Cleo (sp/female name) thing; I don't know what to think, still. You know, I missed him while he was away, training in Portland, because he's an upbeat presence in our home, no matter how offended I might be.

He also owes me ten bucks! Cough it up! (ph) Yeah, so, because we were just watching a Knicks-Pacers game and I said, "Betcha Pacers will win!" "I don't think so; ten bucks!" "Bet on!" I bring it up and he pretends like he doesn't remember. And then he starts on this questioning like, "Well, what conversation are you talking about?" I just said, "I'm not buying this!" [00:17:33]

You know, he's trying to play this little, this game where you would, you know, asking these questions, this befuddlement and I'm just not... I mean, he's a salesman, so he's pretty good, but I know what I know. And I know what he's doing. I'm just not going to stand for it. So I said, "You could be funny or spontaneous or smart or whatever you want, but if people can't trust you, none of that crap matters."

THERAPIST: Huh!

CLIENT: So... I talked to him a little more, but then he started... I sensed like, he was... He was in Portland when they had this run, and he said he walked the whole course. For some reason, I sort of picked up on that as a lie. It was like a tiny bit of body language, just the slightest bit. Also the absence of movement in the hands, when he said it. It was sort of a flit at the eyes, which made me think he, or convinced me, he was lying about that.

THERAPIST: What is the race? [00:18:32]

CLIENT: It's like a race and everyone dresses up; I think it's 5K, everyone dresses up in crazy costumes. (therapist acknowledges) So I was convinced he was telling some fabricated story, for this part of it. So he started off telling a genuine story about how he had anal sex with this girl, and then he sort of went into the race thing. I just walked out, because... you know, I'm not... I got the sense that he was doing that thing, where he, you know, just wants to convince me of a lie, for some reason. (therapist acknowledges) (pause) The anal sex was true, but the race thing was...

THERAPIST: What do you think he, what do you think was in it for him?

CLIENT: Um, just the sense that... I, just to think about it now... uh, I don't know. Just some arrogated sense of superiority. (therapist affirms) And by itself, it would be innocuous, I suppose. But then, combined with the knowledge of what happened with him and Cleo (ph) or the presumed knowledge of what happened, you know, while I was fucking her. You know, I guess that's what sort of brings it over the brim. [00:19:50]

And it's weird; you've seen me go through these transitions, where I'm convinced that they're still having sex behind my back, then I'm convinced they're not. At a certain point, it might be traced just to the fact that I feel guilty for taking someone who he was having sex with and making her mine, while he was there (chuckles), forcing him to listen to it.

So I don't know. (therapist affirms) I mean, he sort of squared with me that nothing happened, and then we went out that night to the Brazilian dancing place; but I can't buy it. This, like it's something that I knew. It was my experience, so in a certain sense like, I can't sell out my own experience. It's not even about truth; it's just my conviction, my experience, even if nothing did happen. I mean, that's how I experienced it and I can't toss that out. [00:20:50]

(therapist affirms) But it's too bad, because it's not... It is too bad because we... I feel like we could get along, but, you know, we both spend quite a bit of time alone. I mean, anyone who brags a lot about the sex they had is somewhat dissatisfied with their experience. You know, I do parallels too, between his sort of stories and what I do here.

THERAPIST: Yeah, well, in some way that he, you know, he's trying to feel okay about himself. Yeah, maybe it comes across as trying to act superior or competitive. You know, he was also the loser in the game.

CLIENT: Yeah, because even if they did have something, they couldn't be open about it, or they weren't. That to me is horrible. (pause) Maybe it's exciting to some people. [00:21:54]

THERAPIST: But yeah, was he feeling somewhat, you know, inferior to you and... I don't know.

CLIENT: The thing is, I can't accept that he behaved the way he did with that in his face. He would not be able to take it lying down like that, unless they did something, I think. I mean, that's speculation, too.

THERAPIST: Maybe he did.

CLIENT: Maybe he did.

THERAPIST: And maybe he did, not just because of his interest in her, but to even the score, kind of get some sort of feeling, like he's not inferior.

CLIENT: Oh, maybe he did, maybe he went through with it, you mean? (therapist affirms) Had sex with Cleo? (therapist affirms) Yeah, well, that's what I assumed. (chuckles) [00:22:51]

THERAPIST: No, I mean, but he did it to kind of, not just because he's interested in Cleo, but because he wanted to kind of...

CLIENT: Oh, absolutely; that would be the only reason, really. (therapist affirms) And that's the offense, is that it's some sort of disrespect directed towards me. (therapist affirms)

(pause) Oh, so I, so there is the whole family. Besides my sister's call, you know, there is the fact of my family there, and a lot of great people, sailing and fun and who knows what else. Also an older generation that probably would have a hard time... I wouldn't be able to be an adult with the older generation there. It's not any fault of theirs; it's just too bad, when your aunts and uncles that you've known since we were kids... [00:23:57]

(pause) But yeah, I was... This same weekend, I applied for membership in my church. So I was working on the newsletter, wrote up profiles after interviewing some young people (people my own age), for the publication. (pause) They're putting me on the Board of Trustees. So I thought in this context like, (chuckles) it's funny how, you know, you would think, or the tradition in the past generations for adolescence or emerging adults to sort of rebel against the church and their families. But in my case, I have to join the church to get away from my family. Like, that's the surrogate (ph) (laughs). Yeah, it's a gawky transition. It's very... because of my family, it's so much more natural to spend time with them or to... (therapist affirms) to try and arrogate some satisfaction from that society. But it's also, I think, less healthy in the long run, homeless (ph). I don't know to say about it. Less opportunity, it seems like there. [00:25:32]

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. It's something about you being on the Board of Trustees? (client affirms) There is the word "trust" again, but I mean, there is also the feeling of like you being... not a child, some of the voice at the church?

CLIENT: Yeah, I guess. (pause) Usually when you're right, I... you know, it takes time to sink in. (laughs) "Voice of the church." It's true, though, that I, even there, it's the same situation, which is maybe why I, you know, my family primers (ph) helped me over there perhaps, because there are older people who won't take anyone, you know, under 50 seriously. It doesn't matter what you do or how long you've been around; it's just like... something to attend to, their generation, or the being older, I don't know what it is. (pause) Yeah. [00:26:47]

What I've had to do is basically segregate my own spheres of influence from the older people, so the younger social group... I mean there were constant demands from older people to come in, talk to the younger people, get them to do this, join this committee, join this initiative. I just said, "No! This is a social group of young people and...," which wasn't easy, because it was at church. "It's a social group of young people and, you know, we're capable of coordinating our own activities, and not really interested in taking these sort of suggestions."

THERAPIST: Ah, uh-huh. Influenced by them or...?

CLIENT: Yeah, I think the word for this would be "lobbyists," like they want to lobby the constituency I'd pulled together to do various things that they imagined would be good for that group to do. [00:27:50]

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah! With their own interests in mind, is that...?

CLIENT: Yeah, tacitly. (therapist affirms) I don't think they grasp that, but (inaudible/blocked). (therapist affirms) Like, "Wouldn't it be great if you guys, you know, did something (inaudible) change (ph) or...

THERAPIST: Right. And so they, to like, receive their kind of mentoring means to kind of... do it a little bit too much their way, to be too, not to have enough of your own kind of space or...

CLIENT: Yeah, it's not just intellectual or... what's the word? Psychological; I mean, it's practical. If the group of people isn't determining what the group does (therapist affirms), then it's not going to exist. I mean, if you let these intrusions sort of determine your actions, then there is no cement holding people together. I don't want to... I mean, what's a group? (chuckles) [00:29:08]

I mean, I could go to Providence and say, "You guys should play this way." And maybe I could, let's say I just to convince them I'm an expert on basketball. It's like, "You guys should do this, this, this, this..." That would, even if I was correct, it would be damaging to the team, because I have no relation to the team. I'm not part of the team. Even if it was like, the best strategy ever, like it's just, you can't have those deus ex machina, it's sort of unfounded directions. I mean, you have to have your skin in the game, too. Like... (pause) if things work.

(pause 00:29:52 to 00:30:19)

I mean, I've been horrendously unproductive. The most productive thing I've done is just the newsletter. I mean, I stayed up all night doing that; not all night, but I slept four hours and I finished it up. I worked like, eight hours on it. Even that... there is this other woman who... I mean, she sort of presumes herself in charge and the general feeling is... if it goes... I don't think I'm not from... Okay, we have to indulge this person (and her mother just died), to... you know, she's the one that cares the most about it, so, just let her have her way, but I guess that's the same point of view, but that's the sense I get. [00:31:10]

It took a while to realize this when I joined the, it's called the Publications Committee of the church, but I mean... This is someone who is not necessarily in charge, but because they presume themselves to be, and because they, they're not as sensitive to other people's views. I mean, they're, they effectively make the most changes. (pause) Kind of like... it's something like the most, you rise according to your incompetence, or something. I guess that's some sort of saying? But I mean, this is the person who... I mean, I feel... It's weird, because earlier in the production process, I had this urge (and I've had it before), just to do something completely different. [00:32:05]

I mean, we have this newsletter that everyone's contributed events to and, like, they have their contact information in there, and some of it's like, news about what people have been doing, and... I just wanted to do something completely different, because I don't think anyone reads what we put in there, and the things we do. I just wanted to have something like, with a Jackson Pollock cover and then just, like one message about... not a message, but I think like a shaded gray paper, and like this sentence about, three sentences, about Louise Bruyn, who walked from Newton to Washington, DC to protest the Vietnam War, you know.

(pause) "Louise Bruyn walked from Newton to Washington, DC. She was angry about the war." (chuckles) I would write some sentence like that, and then on the next page, just nothing. I think on the back... maybe like, I don't know what I had in mind, but it was just something completely different that would... I mean, I would rather have one message that people read and pay attention to, than like 200 that no one cares about. But of course, the complication is, you can't just like, shaft all people who have submitted their information, their traditions and... [00:33:30]

I guess I was feeling very constrained. (therapist affirms) Like, the whole motive of expression through editing; it is, by definition, pretty constipated, but it didn't feel like I was expressing anything of myself through this work (therapist affirms) the first time through. Not to complicate it, but I looked at it twice in the process. (pause) Because while I'm doing my work, I have to think, "Well, okay, here is this person's pet like, event or here is this person's like, on the committee, everyone has their constituency like, they're on events that they sort of throw in there. Not everyone, but everyone has their little pet side issues. (chuckles) The person who tries just to like, who has the most little peeves about how things should work. It's also the most useless. (mutters) [00:34:28]

THERAPIST: Yeah, but that, what did then anybody kind of, it kind of takes away from the experience of it being yours or something feels like really creative... something you can be proud of, or feel good about?

CLIENT: At the art gallery when I was tanking (ph) at college, I worked at the art gallery for a while. This sort of professional guy took over. Before, it was this lady who was completely disorganized; had this four-year old kid at home that just ran around naked, like collected all antiques in her house, and didn't have like a dining room table that was clear, and like she ran the art gallery the same way. Like some yoga instructor.

Anyway, the new guy was a professional, out to make a name for himself. And when I was tanking (ph) at Grinnell, he had asked me... I was Officer of the Arts or some such designated student council position, and he asked me, "Where all did you work, where did you work?" (ph) At that time, I'd been sort of, you know, like a plane that's run out of fuel and I was like diving down! Not diving down, but sort of gliding down, with no power. [00:35:40]

So I... I don't know. I guess working (inaudible) is irrelevant, but the thing is, he asked me to, you know, create a message for the gallery phone, so that people would know where they were calling, for the new exhibit. I left it in like, a British accent like, I did this British accent for the whole thing, which may or may not have been convincing. But I don't think he took very well to it. It's sort of the same character. I just like, do something... outlandish, or wish to.

THERAPIST: Huh!

CLIENT: I don't know why.

THERAPIST: Yeah, why? Yeah, what do you...?

CLIENT: I think I need to create things, but I need like, (chuckles) I need someone to pay attention to me in order to create things. Like, I need some sort of audience to abuse. That's where you come in! (hearty laughter) But I... [00:36:47]

THERAPIST: Audience? I'm an audience to you?

CLIENT: At some sort of boundary where you gather in a group of people... (pause) (therapist affirms) People have like a, I'm not going to use constituency again, but a gathering of people have certain expectations, and then the real thrill is just defying all those expectations all at once, and doing something strange or beautiful that they didn't expect, and reaching them in that way. Like sort of violating those expectations.

THERAPIST: Oh, I see.

CLIENT: But it's not something you can do unless you're like, a celebrity or something. It's not something you can do consistently and maintain your relations with people. That's what I found. [00:37:45]

THERAPIST: You've got to be, you have to be prudent with your irreverence?

CLIENT: I guess. At least when you're not loaded (ph). (chuckles) Or whether you have very, very, very understanding friends or public (ph).

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. But what do you think, what is it, what it's important about doing it that way? Defying the expectations, the doing it...? Is it that the expectations feel kind of binding or...?

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean you need the expectations, you need the... they may or may not exist, but when they exist for you, and they do; they feel like a sweater that's too hot. But without them, you don't have structure to play by and... [00:38:50]

THERAPIST: Hmm!

CLIENT: But why? I mean, why (mumbles/inaudible)? (sighs) (pause) Yeah, reach a new level! I mean... Um... yeah.

(pause 00:39:13 to 00:39:30)

THERAPIST: Yeah, what's at the new level?

(pause 00:39:31 to 00:40:18)

CLIENT: It's transcendence, it's immunity... (pause) it's the trump. (therapist acknowledges)

(pause 00:40:31 to 00:41:22)

I messed up (ph) this thing with the girl at church... I just wasn't feeling it like... Last time we met, she was leaving for a date, but she sort of agreed we'd talk a little bit about dancing. So I went, yesterday I went to the church to find the membership committee, so I could give them my letter in person, which isn't necessary, it's just something I wanted to do.

But they weren't there, and she was there. I didn't want to see her (chuckles), because I was just travelling (ph), I was trying to get my membership letter in, so I could get on the Board of Trustees and... I had just biked (another 18 minute ride), sort of had B.O., I wasn't looking for that, although it might have been good. But we did like, this weird dance and I, my... yeah, it was a very stiff dance, I guess is what you could say. [00:42:45]

I went into the office to try and call the clerk of the Meeting and she went into the office, to start doing her work. (therapist acknowledges) She started talking to me about religion, church... I mean, she's a body person. I guess she's studying physical therapy and she really reminded me of my, something prior to this time, not from the past. I mean, she... She has this sort of holistic... it's like a "coy contentment," when she walks around sometimes. But this time, she reminded me of the old therapist, who was also big into the vibe (ph), something about the way she looked at me. She was looking at me a lot, eye contact. I looked at her legs, and realized she was older than I thought she was. I guess like... 30; I don't know. (therapist acknowledges) Maybe 31. I don't know. [00:43:52]

THERAPIST: Yeah, what about that?

CLIENT: I wasn't attracted to her at this time, and I'm feeling kind of, pretty useless. I'm friendly, definitely. I just spent the whole weekend alone, I could have been with my family or with friends in Maine. (pause) But I was just stiff and very listless (ph). (inaudible) part of my other business, but... Yeah, we kept going to different rooms and she'd go to the kitchen, I'd go to the kitchen and ask her something, ask her questions on dance or something. I can't remember the dance (inaudible).

(pause) We were just... I wasn't discontent with it, but it was almost like I feel I should want something that I didn't want, or I should have pushed for. It's not something I wanted at that time, but I didn't want to show up and, you know, add this sort of, what do you call it? Just to add like this extension to our relationship, which is not at all exciting. [00:45:07]

I'm sure I could get back from it (ph), but it occurred to me afterwards that I'm not really in the present moment, or I wasn't at that time. I wasn't open to the Tao. I was fixated on getting my membership in, so I could become a trustee... There is that. But then there is also something really wrong about criticizing yourself for not being open (chuckles), you know? Criticizing yourself for not being is, yeah, for not being open particularly, is a particularly perverse form of... of divorce from reality.

(pause 00:45:55 to 00:46:16)

I didn't have divorce (ph), like the guys I look at and criticize where they... Uh! (sigh) They like a girl clearly, but they just have these like, stiff extension after extension...

THERAPIST: What were you feeling when you saw her? What were, what was going on...? You noticed she seemed to be excited to see...

CLIENT: I guess I was saying I just... what I feel, I guess... I felt defensive. (pause) It was almost like I feel now, like a, something in the stomach that's not quite comfortable, but not nervous. It's just like a block, some sort of raw... (therapist acknowledges) (inaudible). I don't know what it is, but, when the topic comes to mind, it's like, "Oh, I shouldn't have like, jacked off two days ago or something." Or else I don't like the hormones to be attracted to this person. (therapist affirms) (pause) She was interested, I was interested, nothing happened. [00:47:43]

THERAPIST: And she's a body person? You felt...

CLIENT: Hmm?

THERAPIST: I was just struck by you saying, she's this "body" person and...

CLIENT: She's studying physical therapy.

THERAPIST: Yeah. And into the body.

CLIENT: Yeah, I need that.

THERAPIST: Yeah! Yeah. And then it felt like a dance, that you felt like you couldn't kind of feel at ease with her, or something. Hard to get in your own body or didn't...

CLIENT: My self-consciousness (ph).

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah, yeah!

CLIENT: Keeping her at a distance, definitely, because I felt threatened myself. I just didn't like myself, I didn't... And again, that puts you in a position of like, a beggar. I just kind of feel like I had anything to offer her, even though I'm, like one of the most prominent people in my community right now. I just... I don't know. I just feel very self-conscious (therapist affirms), "stay away" kind of. It's like the subconscious impulses that motivate what I was saying. [00:49:01]

THERAPIST: Yes! Yeah, yeah. I was thinking the B.O. Was it the B...?

CLIENT: Yeah, oh yeah. Like we started off, and she started talking to me and I'm just like, "Oh, can you help me with my B. O.?" Like I was just attacking myself! (chuckles) Which is isn't a very good strategy, if you want to get anything done.

THERAPIST: Well, it must have had that effect, if you're feeling like it was something that she should be staying away from.

CLIENT: Yeah, and also, I... You know, I could tie it to my mother or whatever. I think I have good parents, but... You know, I'm not as sure of what I want. I haven't had like really rewarding sexual experiences, or emotional experiences I've had have been thwarted or painful afterwards. I think I'm less clear than someone like David, who just goes for maximal control or manipulation of the woman physically. (therapist affirms) His own telling. But I mean, I don't have a clear objective. Or I don't have a clear motivation. I think I'm subconsciously sort of afraid of women or intimacy or something else. [00:50:19]

THERAPIST: Well, there are something about the dance that in the physical, that... you can't... It's like a different kind of playing field or something like that, it sounds like you're describing. There are no, it's just two bodies there together. Nothing...

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. That's a real threat to your ego (chuckles), I mean, because it doesn't exist! It's... yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah, right! (pause) Well, this will be it. I'll just (inaudible), okay?

CLIENT: All right.

THERAPIST: (inaudible)

CLIENT: That looks (inaudible).

END TRANSCRIPT