TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: Do you have a cold?

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: Oh, okay. Yeah, I am alright. (pause) [What did I want to say?] (ph) I am wary of my (pause) eagerness or propensity today to dip into fantasy and I am trying to figure out why.

THERAPIST: Mm. Different today than other days? [00:00:54]

CLIENT: Well, yes and no. I mean today I am seeing you and that is always a It is kind of like a high point for me and so I don’t know if it is It is almost like I wonder if I can make it through the day without leaping at the opportunity to jump into fantasy. And I know that there are things during the day that might be challenging. This could be one of them, for example. (pause) [00:02:11]

But, yeah, today is I don’t know why today is more Actually, maybe I do have an idea. I have been working on this website now for about a week. It has to do with the work I was doing overseas. And, you know, I was delighted last week when I was finally able to connect a web address to actual content that I was putting on it.

So (inaudible at 00:02:44) is now the site (inaudible) and there is a lot of good content on there now. And, you know, I kind of had this great idea on Tuesday, Wednesday. And you know, I got so far on it and then I kind of (pause) I guess with anything, I kind of got to this point where I got stuck. And then it is like suddenly like, “Well, is this worth it?”

Is this part of the scope of the project? Should I really be spending my time with this? So I kind of got to a point where I was just feeling negative about it. I didn’t touch it yesterday and I haven’t touched it yet today. And, you know, I think that is kind of the I hate to say it but it is kind of a pattern for me. [00:03:52]

THERAPIST: The pattern of getting conflicted about something and then leaving it, dropping it.

CLIENT: Yeah. Being challenged by it. You know? And, you know (pause) it may be a brilliant idea, maybe well within the scope. And I think it actually probably is. But -

(long pause)

CLIENT: There is a lot going through my mind right now, but I think the driving force for me to doing this thing was to proceed with it and not know where it is going to end up, not know how it is going to end. But just proceed with it because it is the right thing to do. It is the thing I want to do. [00:04:54]

It is putting it out there for people’s consumption or complete oblivion, you know, obliviousness to it. And I am (pause) (sigh) You know, I don’t know why I am in the mood of making generalizations today but it seems as though, my thinking lately has been that I have been preoccupied with what other people will value.

And as I said, I am not I am doing this and I am plowing through it with this kind of mantra of, “Just do it because you don’t where it is going to end. You don’t know what it is going to look like.” How there have been things that have been wildly successful in the past that I have done that I didn’t know where they were going to end up. And so back to where I started. [00:06:05]

(long pause)

CLIENT: I guess I think the tendency is for me to see these challenges and be flustered and lose confidence and feel like I have lost my mooring and I’m not sure where I am going. And yet it is just the same stuff that I have to plow through on another day. So, yeah, I think I am just feeling like I am suddenly lost where before I was very much moving in one direction.

THERAPIST: So feeling lost is what makes you feel like you are more likely to use fantasy?

CLIENT: I think so. I think so.

THERAPIST: So what would you do to change the pattern? [00:07:16]

CLIENT: Well I think I just have to get back into it because I know that works. I know, you know, picking up the guitar when I don’t want to works. It moves forward. Albeit, perhaps it moves in a different direction than I anticipated but it is -

THERAPIST: But it is the movement.

CLIENT: It is movement.

THERAPIST: And that is important.

CLIENT: Yeah. And, you know, I think it is the (laughs) thrill of the new idea that gets so, is so cherished that the movement isn’t It seems like a bad thing. Whereas, the movement I think is the -

THERAPIST: Yeah, the new idea is the catalyst.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But the movement really actually keeps it alive.

CLIENT: Yeah. And I think I am just in awe of, you know, well the love at first sight kind of a thing. [00:08:27]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: So, yeah.

(very long pause)

CLIENT: I have been noticing this week that structure has been helping me. Getting a certain amount done on this project each day has been helpful. It has been helpful in kind of making me feel like my day is not wasted. (sigh) I worked a lot on my Dad’s letter. [00:09:45]

THERAPIST: Do you want to talk about the letter?

CLIENT: Yeah, I guess. I guess that is why I sent it to you.

THERAPIST: You sound so enthused. (laughs) So invested. (laughs)

CLIENT: Yeah, you know, it is the -

THERAPIST: I thought there was probably a reason behind making sure that I saw it before you arrived.

CLIENT: (laughs) Just so you know I wasn’t slacking off on you.

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: No, I (sigh) You know, again, it is the luster of the original idea is sort of long gone on this one.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And movement just seems so dull and plodding along. So, yeah, I mean I think what I was able to put in there was kind of quick and covered a lot of the perspective that I have kind of now arrived at, with your help of course. I’ll make sure to give you credit in there. [00:10:57]

THERAPIST: You don’t have to quote. (laughs)

CLIENT: No, no, no. (laughs) I don’t put any footnotes or bibliography or cited research. But, you know, the idea that this is not a punishing letter, this is a living letter.

THERAPIST: I think that comes through.

CLIENT: Yeah. (laughs) As I read I had to kind of like push down [the beginning of the letter] (ph) before. And so I have put this chunk in there. And it is like, “I’m so glad you [could depart] (ph) before my “Oh my God, this is really, really unpleasant, the old intro. And it wasn’t like lashing out but it certainly didn’t have the kind of the rational and compassionate frame that I am trying to introduce. [00:12:08]

THERAPIST: I think that the reiterations of it really highlight that the writing of the letter and processing it in new ways is really your work. It is much less actually about what you end up sending him, if you end up sending it to him, and more about that is your process. I think that is your process of learning to forgive him.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, you are right.

THERAPIST: Because I think that the compassion is really the piece that is about forgiveness.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: That is what allows, I think, people to forgive. Having compassion is what allows us to forgive people for actions or words (ph) that we don’t actually condone. It is not like you are saying what he did was okay, and that the way he responded and a lot of the lack of response is okay with you. You are saying that I feel for you and your experience as a human being even though you did these things that I see as egregious. [00:13:12]

CLIENT: Mm hm. Yeah. And I think that the difference is when I forgave him when I was twelve, it was just a kneejerk response.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. That was a twelve year old’s version of forgiveness.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It is very different than You know, what you have the capacity to hold and understand as a twelve year old is different than what you have the capacity to hold and understand and let go of as an adult.

CLIENT: Yeah. And so there was one part of that letter, that introduction that I It is a long introduction. It is more than an introduction. (laughs) But there was a part in there where I, you know, I need to allude to it later on about the significance of this forgiveness as opposed to me saying, “I love you,” to my Dad when I was twelve. [00:14:17]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And all those things. Because that forgiveness didn’t really do anything. It just kind of muted a lot of heavy thinking and critique and pain. And so thus far that whole lifetime since then has been to me incomplete. It has been strained. It has been misaligned. And for so many years I never knew why.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. Yeah, that carrying around that piece with you.

CLIENT: Yeah. And so I want to send this letter as is an official (laughs) A, I haven’t got the word for it, but kind of an animation of forgiveness. (pause) Yeah. (pause) But that is as much as I have got right now. [00:15:34]

(long pause)

THERAPIST: Well, it is not a but. You said, “but that is all I have got right now.” It was pretty substantial. It is a lot of work that you have put into it. A lot of thought and feeling and processing and -

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: The importance of it really shows in the level of, the detail at which you are using to describe how you feel and why you are sharing. It shows a lot of thought.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Careful thought.

CLIENT: And I think that is what is in the I think I kind of give attribution to that in the part that I have in parentheses. Or I say, “It is because I have not been able to accept this for better or for worse, that I am able to [put this in it] (ph).” [00:16:58]

THERAPIST: Mm hm. Yeah. To see it this way.

CLIENT: Yeah. So, Yeah. Sorry if I am (sigh) I just feel drained and it just kind of, again, when I was sitting out there -

THERAPIST: What happened as you were sitting out there? When did you get drained?

CLIENT: I don’t know. It seems like when I got on the bus to come down. You know, it is a different mode of living when you don’t have to drive yourself. You know, you are just kind of being carted around and you kind of sit there. (yawns) I don’t know. Maybe it is just this day has been draining. But, yeah, I think just sitting on the comfy couch. Is that a new couch? [00:18:04]

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: It is the same couch, same magazines. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Oh, I purged the magazines. (laughs)

CLIENT: Alright. (laughs) There is [“An Harvard Education.”] (ph)

THERAPIST: That is a brand new one. Check the recycling bin. I did a big purge this morning when I came in.

CLIENT: Really?

THERAPIST: Yeah. I got rid of the stuff from like November and beyond, or earlier. (laughs)

CLIENT: Yeah. It is always funny that I see people look at doctor’s names on the subscription. You know? And then it is like, “I wonder why they chose this magazine.” (laughs) “Better Homes and Gardens,” for example.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. My name is on that one.

CLIENT: I am not sure That is like doctors get a free subscription to all these magazines because -

THERAPIST: We do get a discount. I can tell you that the selection we have out there, those are ones that haven’t been complained about for being inappropriate.

CLIENT: Oh, really?

THERAPIST: So it is a limited selection of things -

CLIENT: So no “Maxim.”

THERAPIST: because we don’t want to offend anybody. [00:19:07]

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: But I fear at the same time we are often not entertaining anybody. (laughs)

CLIENT: Oh yeah, there is that. Well you could have some new decorating ideas. So, yeah.

(long pause)

CLIENT: I don’t know. Maybe it is just the end of the week, it is Friday. I mean I am always here Friday but still it is, I don’t know. I am just tired.

(very long pause) [00:20:17]

CLIENT: I don’t know why I am somewhere else.

THERAPIST: Where would you like to be?

CLIENT: (chuckles) (pause) Um. I laugh because the first thing that came to mind was, “On your lap.” (laughs) I am sorry.

THERAPIST: That is okay. It is an honest answer.

CLIENT: Yeah. It is.

(long pause)

CLIENT: What else can I tell you?

THERAPIST: Well, I guess I have two questions. The first one is, what is the second thing that came to mind? And going back to the first thing that came to mind, then what? If you had what you wanted what would be next? (pause)

CLIENT: There was no second thing that came to mind. (laughs) It was just my amusement of the instantaneousness of the first thing that came to mind. (laughs) Um. Well. You know, I (pause) I guess I would just want to hold you. (pause) [00:22:38]

THERAPIST: What would that give you?

(long pause)

CLIENT: A thrill, some peace. (pause)

THERAPIST: How? If I go back and read some of the letter that you had to your dad, as you were describing your daily experience of the feelings of anxiety that you carry with you, the heaviness in your chest, the constricted breathing, you know, the thoughts that you feel like you live with every day. How are those alleviated by holding me or being in my lap? How do you connect those? (pause) [00:23:57]

CLIENT: I am not sure that I can.

THERAPIST: I think it is interesting that you kind of make me or an object of another fantasy somehow a cure.

CLIENT: Mm hm. (pause) Yeah. (pause) It is difficult to think about this because, on the one hand, it would be nice to know the connection. On the other hand, I do enjoy it.

THERAPIST: Hm. So you are afraid if you figure out the connection it will go away?

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) (laughs) It is an honest answer.

THERAPIST: I like honesty. It is the only thing that works in here. (pause) [00:25:06]

CLIENT: But if I think about it, and I want to think about it (pause) I guess it is the acceptance. It is more of what is communicated that is not even felt.

THERAPIST: What do you mean, “communicated and not felt?”

CLIENT: Well, that I am worth something. That I am valued. That I am attractive. That I am (pause) desirable. (pause) And so, I guess, with it all written out in my letter, those are all the things that I feel like I am not all day long. (sigh) But for whatever reason, my (pause) need for these things to be fulfilled by someone, something, that is a challenge. [00:26:58]

THERAPIST: Ah, is that what puts me as the object of the fantasy?

CLIENT: Maybe. I mean you are also attractive. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Thank you.

CLIENT: But -

THERAPIST: But I bet there are plenty of people out in the world that you can find attractive.

CLIENT: Yeah. It could be. But at the same time there is not that kind of connection with other people.

THERAPIST: That is probably the key difference is that you get, hope, that you have to get some of those things that you say you are looking for in our interaction without the fantasy piece.

CLIENT: Yes. I mean I think -

THERAPIST: The feeling of being accepted. Not being judged. Being seen as valuable. I mean those are all things that are absolutely true in the relationship that we do have. I do see you as valuable and I do accept you and I don’t judge you.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. But it is that well-worn track, you know, where it is the attraction, it is the desirability that is what happened. [00:28:17]

THERAPIST: That the way that a person shows you that you are valuable and accepted is through a sexual relationship.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. I mean it can happen in other ways too but it is like the cheapest one and most successful.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Like I can have a job offer in my mailbox when I go home, you know. And that would be (laughs), from many different places, you know that would be a thrill and a message of desirability in a different way.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Um. (pause) (sigh) But those things are hard to I mean you can’t instigate those. You can apply for a job but, you know, it is must easier to just fantasize about your therapist and your many boots. (laughs) [00:29:38]

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: Sorry.

THERAPIST: That’s alright. (laughs)

CLIENT: So, yeah, I mean it is -

THERAPIST: It is good you always come in on casual Friday.

CLIENT: Is that what it is? It is casual Friday?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Do you really have the casual Friday.

THERAPIST: Well, I kind of get to make whatever day I want the casual day.

CLIENT: Oh.

THERAPIST: But I tend to give up on Friday. (laughs)

CLIENT: I would think every day would be casual day. You know, [this is what I want.] (ph) I mean with every client you could say, “Well, today is my casual day.” And they wouldn’t know.

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: Only if you see them twice in a week, right? (laughs) Something to think about. Yeah, I just I think it is that connection. It is that acceptance. It is also I can see it manifest itself in the, when I am on my computer with someone I will look at different social network sites, different kinds. And one is called SoundCloud. It is where I posted, you know, some music that I, you know, recorded. [00:31:01]

And you know, they have a little counter there. It is for how many times it has been listened to. And it has been at 69 for quite a while now. So I keep checking. It is like, “Has anybody listened to my song.” (laughs)

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: And I don’t have any real I mean my LinkedIn profile has been at the very, very bottom. But other than that there is no reason to go there. There is no cue, c-u-e. But, you know, there is that and then there is my Vimeo page which has all my videos. And I get daily e-mail that says, “Your video was played three times in the past 24 hours.” Or, “You still have 500 megabytes this week to upload stuff.” You know? And, “You didn’t have any plays in the past 24 hours.”

And I will go to Facebook to see if anybody has replied or liked things that I said, never. I will go to Instagram and maybe post a photo and then look throughout the day to see who has liked my photo. Who has commented on it? Who can give me the feedback I am looking for? [00:32:19]

THERAPIST: When you post, are you posting with the awareness that you are doing so to see the response you get? Or are you -

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I am. And I can see myself looking for the response. I can see myself going to that and checking that throughout the day, checking my inbox to see if anybody has commented, checking my inbox for any kind of e-mail that is like, “This is for you. This is for you. This is something that is not from the magazine (ph).

THERAPIST: You are looking for a personal connection.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. And so I guess that is that personal connection that we have that I seek out. And I don’t know quite how to understand that if it is a need of acceptance, of approval, of saying that “Yes, you take good pictures.” Or, “Yes, you write good songs.” Or, “Yes, you have “ [00:33:38]

THERAPIST: Well, you want someone to pay attention to you and say that they like you, proxy your stuff.

CLIENT: Yeah, basically, absolutely.

THERAPIST: It is interesting because if we look back at some our conversations in other sessions, one of the things you talked about a few weeks ago was sort of almost the reluctance you have to directly seek out that kind of connection and approval. You know, kind of avoiding conversations with friends because you felt like you didn’t care enough about what they were talking about to actually invest in it.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Or almost avoiding that trip up to Vermont or Montana or someplace cold, in order to -

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: Because you weren’t sure, “Was I really going to enjoy this?”

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And those are the avenues that you actually get real validation. Right?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Because a “like” on Facebook or a comment on Instagram or a response to your thing on Twitter or a view of your whatever. You know, any of those things are fleetingly felt and satisfying. Right? [00:34:48]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Because you were probably psyched when you got to 69 views of your song but now it is meaningless.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Now it doesn’t mean anything until it goes up to 70 or 71.

CLIENT: Or a hundred. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Because it will keep moving. Right?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But when you actually did go up and spend time with your friend that probably lasted longer. You know, like the memory you have of her laughing over getting the truck out -

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: that is going to actually stay with you.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But yet you often bar yourself from having those direct When was the last time you directly e-mailed somebody and said, “Hey, I just finished a song. Do you want to hear it?”

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Or, “Hey do you want to get together and play?”

CLIENT: No, no. You are right.

THERAPIST: So I wonder There is actually nothing wrong with seeking feedback, validation, connection. Those are very normal human urges. And you are certainly not the only person who is checking their Facebook and looking to see who liked whatever.

CLIENT: You don’t do it?

THERAPIST: Well, I am not talking about me. I’m just saying you.

CLIENT: Generally.

THERAPIST: You know, I don’t think Facebook would be doing that well if you were the only person checking your status updates. [00:35:58]

CLIENT: That’s true. That’s true. (laughs) Facebook be damned. Yes, yes. So those are the cheap ways and they can be on my terms and I can instigate them when I want.

THERAPIST: Yeah. And nobody really knows you are doing it. Right? Nobody knows how often you are checking to see.

CLIENT: Yeah. That is true.

THERAPIST: People would really know if you e-mailed them directly to ask a question or share something.

CLIENT: Yeah. Or if you called somebody five times a day, “How are you doing? What is going on?” (laughs) “You still at work? Oh, okay.” But, yeah, yeah. I see what you mean. (pause) So what is it though? I mean is there an apparent absence of personal connection in my life generally that I seek these things out? [00:37:04]

THERAPIST: To whom do you feel really connected? Who really knows you and do you feel really connected to? (pause) Actually, can I ask you, by whom do you feel truly known? Let’s start there.

CLIENT: Well, my wife to a point -

THERAPIST: Ah. Truly known. Does that fit with, “To a point?”

CLIENT: No. Well, it is hard to say because these fantasies that I embark on, she doesn’t know about those.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And so to say, “truly known,” does that mean all of the warts and calluses as well? I guess that depends on what (laughs) I view as truly known.

THERAPIST: Mm. Are the fantasies the only piece you feel like she doesn’t know?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. (pause) Because I don’t know what that means, “truly known.” I guess that is the closest thing. I mean I guess you know more than she does. [00:38:20]

THERAPIST: Well certainly about that piece. Are there pieces you feel that she knows about you that I don’t?

CLIENT: Probably. My sense of humor. (laughs) I don’t know. [She’s warming to that.] (ph) (pause) It is hard to say because it is like at this level of intimacy it is pretty limitless. So I can talk with you about anything. I can’t talk with her about everything. So it is hard to say what you know and what she knows, the difference.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Maybe that is it. Maybe that is the difference. Maybe that is a (inaudible at 00:39:19).

THERAPIST: I think you are probably on to something. (pause) I think that is important because the desire you have to be accepted by me in other ways, I think that is sustained by your feeling that it is safer with me. You can talk about anything with me.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: And you don’t feel that level of safety with her or with anyone else.

CLIENT: Yeah. It is true.

THERAPIST: It gives me a lot of power to be the sort of person who can validate you or accept you the most.

CLIENT: Mm hm. (pause) So how do I, use is maybe the wrong word, but how do I use that to my advantage so that I can (laughs) get through these I mean maybe it is just the way I do fantasies that I feel bad about them, I also feel guilty, I can’t talk about them. I just don’t want to talk about these things to my wife. It would kill her. (sigh) (pause) [00:40:49]

THERAPIST: Yet you also don’t really want to give them up.

CLIENT: That is true.

THERAPIST: So those are two options. Right? There is the option of giving it up so it is not something you are hiding from her, or telling her about it so it is not something you are hiding from her. And I would love to come up with a third or fourth option. I haven’t created it yet. I haven’t found it yet. But you may be able to.

CLIENT: Well I guess it is Yeah. I mean, it is not feeling bad about them. To just see them as a natural defense mechanism. It is the, and that is probably the more sustainable option. (sigh) Well, yes and no. I mean I guess what I would like to do is address why they are. Going after them so that that being addressed I can try to deal with the cause. And if I guess (inaudible 00:42:08).

(long pause)

THERAPIST: So being able to discover sort of why you use them, why they come up, what makes them powerful. I think part of that is noticing when you jump to them. And, you know, in the past couple of sessions I have asked, “When did you jump from there to fantasizing or from what we were talking about to escaping into a fantasy. And I think being aware of that trigger in here and when it happens outside of here are your cues.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: What are you seeking from doing it? [00:43:11]

CLIENT: Yeah. I guess I think the complicating factor is that I am feeling worthless, feeling a lack of connection, jumping into fantasy. Feeling bad about the fantasy, so feeling further worthless.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know, and so on and so forth.

THERAPIST: So if you know that one of your triggers is feeling worthless then when you notice that you are feeling that, you have jumped into fantasy, well what could you do to feel worthy? What would make you feel that way?

CLIENT: I don’t know. Tell me.

THERAPIST: (laughs) It has to be your answer.

CLIENT: Give me a hint. (laughs)

THERAPIST: There is not one right answer.

CLIENT: No, no, I know what you mean. Like what would be an example.

THERAPIST: When do you feel good about yourself? Best. When do you feel best about yourself?

CLIENT: When I’m not (sigh) When I am not thinking about other things. When I am thinking about what I am doing. [00:44:20]

THERAPIST: Ah. So when you are present with something, right?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So that is often your clue maybe of like, “Oops, I’m not where I am. I am off in my head. I am somewhere.” Or, “I am very deeply in my feeling of being worthless and I am not actually working on the website. I am not actually doing research. I am not actually having a conversation with this person.”

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: “Noticing the world around me as I am walking the dog.” But if you know you feel better about yourself when you are present and engaged with whatever it is you have chosen to do in that moment, then that feeling is, you know, it is like a red flag waving at you, “Hello. Come back to “

CLIENT: That red flag, though, always seems like work. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm hm. Yes.

CLIENT: And I think that is why fantasy is so easy. It is like, “Oh well, It is just “ You know.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Imagine this. So how do you [00:45:24]

THERAPIST: So it is work. But you have worked hard before. You work hard lots of the time. It is okay to work hard.

CLIENT: Yeah, says you. (laughs) As I fall asleep in your chair. Alright, well I will have to work hard in the next week and see you again.

THERAPIST: Sounds good. Same time next week.

CLIENT: Same time every week until you tell me otherwise. I have got a [pen here.] (ph)

END TRANSCRIPT