TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: By the end of the month. This is my (inaudible at 00:00:08) I’ve told you a couple different things, and I’ve probably told you, but if I’m repeating myself, it’s a project I’m, that I was doing in Europe. And I mean making this website for it, and—

THERAPIST: Yeah, you’ve only told me a little bit.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Here and there.

CLIENT: Yeah, and the independent reviewer for Europe contacted me last week. I interviewed him in July, and so he’s got this little report that he’s going into. His lectures are given at the end of February and (inaudible at 00:00:55), so I find him and say, “Hey, this is great.” [00:00:57]

By the way, I’m watching his website, and here it is. He got all excited about it, he wants it tweeted, he wants it like his website which is great, and he said, “Oh, and by the way, the Miranda ruling,” which was David Miranda was held for nine hours and he threw a partner Glenn Greenwald, Snowden materials, all that happened at once.

That really was supposed to come up on Tuesday, so, and he said, “So, there might be a lot of people interested in the truth,” so it has, Tuesday, so I’m like, “Oh shit, I have to get it done.”

THERAPIST: Right, you want to have it looking good for Tuesday.

CLIENT: Exactly, so that’s where, it’s history, at the, you know where schedule 7 came from, and I’ve got like eight interviews that I still have to transcribe, but if I could just put a couple of them up there, which is possible, just to have, let people know that they are coming, and so on and so forth. [00:01:56]

So I’m reading transcripts of parliamentary debates from 1974 right now. [00:02:02]

And they’re fascinating, and I need some coffee, so yeah.

THERAPIST: Well it’s exciting to have stuff happening with it, I’d imagine.

CLIENT: Yeah, it is, it is, and I’m, you know, thrilled that I mean, I think for so long I’ve dreaded not having something to show for that time there.

THERAPIST: And you’re going to.

CLIENT: And I am. That’s, it’s you know, like three months of the entire eleven months I was there, which is you know, I think, remarkable in itself, and it makes me proud of it. And that I can kind of get it off my chest because of everything that I do I always fear that I’m not going to finish it or it’s just going to languish. [00:03:01]

And I’m going to have something to show for it and a product to point to, so anyway, that’s all, so sorry, I’m a little bit sleepy. I was wide awake a half an hour ago. Yeah, so. Happy Valentine’s Day.

THERAPIST: Thank you.

CLIENT: (pause) [00:03:57]

I’m not sure if it’s the medication or the regular exercise or diet or whatever, or the work I’m doing here, but I’m actually feeling like living a life that I choose deliberately, for the better or there’s something that is possible, or becoming possible.

And I don’t deny that there are pitfalls, there are limitations and fantasies and close calls, but by and large, that’s kind of what being human is about. You know, any of that, wherever’s safe from failings is really been less and less. [00:05:09]

And we’re certainly not, I am certainly not destined to fail.

THERAPIST: That’s a shift.

CLIENT: Yeah, it is, it is. And you know, to go from feeling like well, it’s inevitable to well, it’s possible, but not, never, you know.

THERAPIST: It gives you a lot more power.

CLIENT: Yeah. Even possible is not tragic in itself, so that’s something even in the past week I feel like the past two weeks, actually, it feels like is positive step for me. [00:06:01]

And you know, I’ve also been able to put a lot more structure into my life, actually putting in places tips and tricks that the course on procrastination, all of the tricks he taught us, and they’re working.

THERAPIST: What are you finding useful?

CLIENT: Well, actually putting things on my calendar like I’ve got this recurring “to do” tasks on my iPhone that every day comes up and I read for half an hour. Well, I’ve been wanting to read every day for a long time. [00:07:01]

But unless it’s something that sticks in my face, you know, “Oh yeah, I want to do that.” You know, it’s actually happening. I play guitar for half an hour. It comes up every day, and a half an hour is nothing. And you know, adding those to the list, making them a priority is very simple, a very simple task. But it says something about the place these things hold in my life. [00:07:56]

THERAPIST: Yeah, I think adding to the list is pretty easy, choosing to make them a priority and following through on that in a daily way is, I don’t know if that’s easy or hard. It’s very meaningful.

CLIENT: Yeah, well, and for me, it is a first step and in that it’s meaningful, but it seems like it’s accessible, you know.

THERAPIST: Yeah, sounds like it.

CLIENT: Yeah, and you know, going to the gym is on there, and I’m still trying to, you know, stretch out a bit in using these tools, but what I do with my time, I don’t have the best, it’s damaging. It’s damaging after the fact to say, “I sat around for three hours and did nothing but peruse Facebook or IM, whatever.” [00:09:11]

And when I’m in that moment now, and I’m doing something mindless and useless, I can stop myself and say, “Well, what’s on my list?” And I know there are things on there that I don’t necessarily want to do or can rationalize putting them off, but I know that no matter what happens with the half an hour of guitar playing that I do, no matter what happens with that, I will be living in a way that I choose and that I want to, and that’s, you know, you feel kind of paralyzed by the undefined, you know. [00:10:06]

When your whole day is wide open and you’re not doing anything, you’re not doing anything good, you’re not doing anything bad, you’re not doing anything and it’s probably for some people it’s a dream, but for me it’s paralyzing, and demoralizing.

And I think the process of putting it on the list and following through with it is actually, I don’t mean to make this sound negative, but it’s kind of, it’s keeping me to account for, to account, to make good on living the life that I want to live. [00:11:07]

THERAPIST: It’s holding you accountable for—

CLIENT: Yeah, and—

THERAPIST: And then you get to feel good about it, right?

CLIENT: Exactly, exactly.

THERAPIST: So you put it on the list, you did it, and then you can feel good that you did what you wanted to do.

CLIENT: Exactly.

THERAPIST: Followed through on your intention.

CLIENT: Yeah, it’s not just the satisfaction of checking things off.

THERAPIST: Really checking off the thing that is meaningful.

CLIENT: That is meaningful, and if you don’t do it, you’re going to feel bad from not having done it. Those things just kind of snowball and become big monsters, so yeah, I mean, the, those processes are developing for me, and I don’t know, I’m just, for the moment, enjoying them. [00:12:01]

THERAPIST: I’m glad to hear that.

CLIENT: So that’s where I—part of my reading is a book I picked up in Europe. It’s probably a US publisher, but it’s anxiety and depression workbook which you’ve probably seen. It’s like this thick, this big, anxiety and depression. (inaudible at 00:12:53) bought all these services and so part of it, part of the thing it talks about is PMR. [00:13:07]

And exercise.

THERAPIST: Is that the one by David Burns?

CLIENT: Maybe. Is it green and white?

THERAPIST: If it’s him, there’s like a gazillion editions of it, so I don’t know what the most recent one looks like.

CLIENT: I think it actually might be. That sounds familiar, but anyway, it’s a few years old and whatever, it’s, and certain DPT (sp) things that I’ve forgotten. So it’s that, and I have a book on the Middle East, and that’s what I’m reading right now. [00:14:01]

THERAPIST: It may be good to kind of do them in conjunction. I mean, I get a little anxiety-provoking book.

CLIENT: Yeah, exactly.

THERAPIST: Complex history there.

CLIENT: And—

THERAPIST: The workbook skills are important. You said things to this effect before, oh, stuff you should know already or stuff you’ve learned before, and I’m seeing you’re kind of disparaging yourself for not remembering it always freshly all the time.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But of course, those kinds of skills are things that they need to be practiced all the time or they do kind of fall by the wayside and I think part of, you know, just as you said, you are human, of course you’re not going to be perfect. Of course you’re going to forget to put them into place sometimes, and there’s going to be times when you’re more consciously aware and so you know, the idea of kind of having something that refreshes your memory, you’ll be like, “Oh yeah, remember this thing that I practiced before?” Remember making time for PMR or remember, you know, doing the opposite emotion? [00:15:09]

CLIENT: Yeah, I remember.

THERAPIST: Those are all things that you do need some, you need something to help you remember to do it.

CLIENT: And I think that’s what I’m hoping the workbook, but also you know, the calendar and the reminders.

THERAPIST: Right. Those are all ways of kind of, “Hey, pay attention to what you’re doing.”

CLIENT: Yeah, I have this app in front of me, but I had an app to remind me to drink water.

THERAPIST: I remember that.

CLIENT: You do. You probably laugh yourself, but—

THERAPIST: I think drinking more water is a fabulous thing for most people to do.

CLIENT: Yeah, and I don’t think people quite realize how much water they need and how much coffee they drink and things like that, but you know, that actually helped me stay hydrated. [00:15:58]

THERAPIST: And you felt better for it.

CLIENT: I felt better for it, and I have it happening more and it’s, you know, set it up as reminders to, you know, stretch more, whatever. They are helpful to me, and they remind me to do things that I know are good for me.

THERAPIST: Before everybody had cell phones they walked around with that could remind them of these things, one of the things that, you know, I used to do with people was, “What can you set up in your environment that can be a natural reminder?” You know, I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with having it on your cell phone either, now that we have. You know, back in the day when I first started practicing, nobody walked around with an iPhone, so—

CLIENT: Well yeah, and even that is, you know, I’ve got this stretch I’m supposed to be doing three times a day and I just have it on my wall so that I can, when I walk by my room, I see it.

THERAPIST: You see it. I remember. So things that are sort of natural, you can tag things to other things in your life. Like there are probably other things that you do all of the time pretty regularly. [00:17:09]

And you probably brush your teeth a couple times a day, and you can tag things, you know. So like the, whether it be those stretches or remembering to do ten deep breaths, you can tag it to something else that you already do as a natural sort of repetitive practice in your day. You know for when the iPhone reminder becomes stale, because one of the things that sometimes happens is when the thing’s novel, you know, you pay attention to it and la dee da, but then after awhile you become sort of immune to that response or that reminder or it pops up at a time when you can’t possibly do it. A reminder comes up because you’re driving, and—

CLIENT: I can’t drink water right now. No, absolutely, and I think that’s part of it. You see, it’s happened yesterday, and today when I was actually working on this. A reminder came up to read for half an hour, and I’m like, “I can’t do it right now.” This is basically as important, but I will not dismiss it. [00:18:08]

I will just snooze, or it will still be—

THERAPIST: You can go back to it later.

CLIENT: So anyway, that’s what I’m just trying to institute some things that are helpful that I know I want to do and sometimes have a problem executing, so—

THERAPIST: Do you notice any connection or any difference when you said in the past couple of weeks you say you’ve been feeling better about yourself, have you been doing this? Does that impact how much of the time you’re having thoughts that you don’t like?

CLIENT: You know, it’s interesting you mention that, because I know that, I don’t know, that for some reason my grandma comes to mind. [00:19:03]

But idle hands make sin or something. You know, and it’s interesting to notice that when I’m not on task for whatever reason and how those temptations don’t enter, and it’s—

THERAPIST: When you’re not on task they don’t enter, or when you are on task?

CLIENT: When I am on task they don’t enter.

THERAPIST: They don’t enter, yeah.

CLIENT: They don’t enter, and it was funny, I was in the store yesterday and I have such the temptation, or the fixation or just frequent habit of checking women out wherever I am. [00:20:02]

And so here I am on task, and I am thinking to myself, and I’ve actually thought about this off and on for awhile now. What are people thinking about when they’re on task, when they’re out in public? How productive are they being? How present are they being to what they’re doing if they’re not caught up in doing what I’m doing? Does that make sense? So I mean—

THERAPIST: Where are their thoughts?

CLIENT: Where are their thoughts, and how does this help them? What does it allow them to do or work through, process, be present to and that I am not doing? And I was hard-pressed to come up with something in the store yesterday when I was like, “I’m really present to shopping for, you know, cashews in the bulk section, or something.” [00:21:06]

And I just couldn’t quite, and I’m still working on that, and you know, in some ways it is similar to when I’m walking the dog and present to what is around me and I’m looking at things and thinking of ways to describe things as a means of developing my communication.

THERAPIST: I think a food store is a perfect place. There’s plenty to notice. Plenty of colors, plenty of displays.

CLIENT: Yes, yes, that’s true, that’s true. But it’s hard not to get, you know, snarky about all of it while you’re there. And yeah. [00:22:01]

But I’m sure—

THERAPIST: Well that’s not necessarily being present. You can be present when you’re snarky about the gorgeous displays.

CLIENT: Very true, or the expensive prices or—

THERAPIST: How much they’re charging you for those displays.

CLIENT: Exactly, exactly. Or how many of the sample bowls are just empty. No, the—what I do when I’m present, and how I deal with it kind of, as an extension of your question about the influx, the presence of negative thoughts or—

THERAPIST: Unwanted. [00:22:57]

CLIENT: Unwanted, yeah, when I’m focusing on the things that I want to get done during the day, being present, again, is one of those things that I forget to do, and although I have that one technique of finding new ways, different ways, creative ways to describe what I’m seeing, you know, I feel like I’m new to this and that I am bound to discover other ways of being present that are satisfying and maybe not productive. You know, like I seem to be focused on having something to show for whatever it is I’m doing any time. [00:24:02]

But until then, I’m probably just going to be floundering with presence and distance.

THERAPIST: Getting comfortable with not having thoughts, I think, is a really challenging piece of any type of meditation or being present, because being present is really just meditating throughout your life. And you don’t always have to be in a perfect state of meditation. But part, I think, maybe the next place for you to do is one of the ways you deal with it is to try to direct your thoughts. I think another tact is getting comfortable with not actually having thoughts, and letting go, letting your mind be an empty space. Here I am in the store, going about, you know, getting the stuff on my list, and not necessarily engaging in any, you know, dialogue in my head, or thinking deeply about anything. I’m just walking in the store. [00:25:01]

And I think one of the ways that that might be uncomfortable to have happen is that you let, a lot of times in your mind, is not thoroughly engaged in something, the thoughts you have make you uncomfortable in some way, whether it be in the moment or later you feel uncomfortable about having had them.

And so, you know, at some point, letting yourself have no thoughts and see what happens, and then moving on from it, and then moving on to a place where maybe you do direct your thoughts or get lost in some other thought.

CLIENT: I have no idea what that would look like, but that’s not to say that I won’t someday. I’m just being honest. To be without thought, and maybe I’ve experienced it and I hate to acknowledge it or realize it. [00:25:58]

THERAPIST: When you’re playing music, do you ever feel like you’re in the zone?

CLIENT: Yeah, there’s that.

THERAPIST: That’s a time without much thought. I mean, generally when an athlete, or a musician, or a performer talks about being in the zone, or in flow, there isn’t a whole lot of thought. It’s just sort of automatic process and response.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s interesting. When I’m reading, sometimes it’s just so easy to just go in this direction of thought. I’m still reading, (inaudible 00:26:36). I don’t know.

THERAPIST: Is there ever a time when you’re reading and that doesn’t happen, that you get totally absorbed in what you’re reading? Maybe something lighter? Do you ever read anything lighter?

CLIENT: The anxiety and depression workbook doesn’t lend to it.

THERAPIST: Doesn’t lend itself to that.

CLIENT: Nor does the Middle East book. [00:27:06]

But yeah, I think so. But—

THERAPIST: Or like watching a movie or something that has, you know, really has a plot you can get into?

CLIENT: Yeah, I know where you’re going with this, and it’s true. I do have fictional experiences and exposure, but I don’t know, I think it depends on how interested I am in what I’m reading. Sometimes (inaudible at 00:27:40) because—but, getting back to the idea of not having thoughts, I guess I’m so new to life, I don’t know why. [00:28:07]

But the, going through the store, walking down the street, on task, going to the supermarket, getting groceries. Yeah, I just, I don’t know. I guess when it comes to mind, I wonder just how much the anxiety that I have within me is creeping into that. Yeah. I’m sure somebody’s written about this. [00:28:57]

But it seems to me that in the past fifteen years, and you can tell me what you think about this. But it seems that there’s so much uncertainty and the world is going in so many directions all at once. The information’s just good information, bad information.

THERAPIST: And a lot more information.

CLIENT: Irrelevant information, it’s all coming at us in more ways. Before it came through printed materials and radio and television. Now it’s like every gadget, and I don’t mean to make it sound like it’s sort of back in the day story, but it just seems like for a person like me and millions of other people who are working through life, trying to figure out what’s important, what’s not, there is anxiety there about what is necessary in order to compete. [00:30:11]

To be a candidate for work, for professional goals, for you know, I don’t know. I’m still working through this, but I do think about it sometimes because I think there is this latent anxiety about ignoring the Twitter trend, for example. You know, it’s not a very good example, but it does—

THERAPIST: You’re afraid if you ignore some piece, then that’s going to have ended up being, or it will be an important piece for something significant like an appointment.

CLIENT: Yeah, exactly, or happiness, you know. I mean, I think, I mean, I don’t think it’s like if you don’t pick up on the one trend that’s important. [00:31:17]

It maybe because you’re focused on a trend that it is important to you, like guitar, for example. That doesn’t mean that you’re going to be doomed because you don’t have a job. You’re happy because you’re developing the guitar. But I’m not articulating this very well, but I think the, I just think the, maybe I’m wrong, but it seems like the world is so much more intricately woven or the appearance of that is the case where you just don’t know where you fit into it all. [00:32:04]

THERAPIST: Right. I don’t know that the world has actually changed that much. I think that what’s very different about our experience of the world with all of the technology and social media and information that’s been available to people at a moment’s notice now. I think the difference is that we’re, we’re now sort of used to, and we expect to have instant information and a lot of it whenever. Like you said, it used to be that you know, people watched the six o’clock news to find out what happened during the day. They didn’t need to know about it moment by moment and they didn’t need to know about every development.

As we watched the marathon (inaudible at 00:32:50), people, you know? It used to be that you went, and you picked a spot to stand, and you saw the runners go by at that spot, and then you found out when they ended because they told you who finished when. [00:33:04]

Now, you tag your runners and you know exactly where they are on the spot, for all twenty-six point two miles. You don’t need to know that. Nobody needs to know this except maybe the, you know, significant other of that runner who also doesn’t even need to know because their marathon had been run for eons without anyone ever knowing that stuff.

So I think the challenge now is to figure out where to, we need to now be in charge of putting some boundaries on how much information we take in, how frequently we seek out information, because the research pretty consistently shows that more information leads to more unhappiness. Greater options, people having more options now in their life, there’s a degree to which that’s useful, but more so, the more options you have, the more pressure you feel. Happiness doesn’t go up. Once basic necessities are met, happiness does not go up with increased options. It doesn’t go up when you win the lottery. [00:34:06]

It all creates extra pressure and extra stress and an expectation that you will, because you now have all this other stuff with information.

CLIENT: You should be right now.

THERAPIST: Right, and then you just feel unhappy.

CLIENT: I’m doing it wrong.

THERAPIST: So the, you know, figuring out how to put boundaries on it for yourself, because yeah, if you miss the Twitter trend, it’s actually not going to have any impact on your happiness. If you don’t keep up with your Facebook status, it’s not actually going to get in the way of much. You know, for very few people are those things important. If your job isn’t social media, you should probably know both those things. For the rest of us, we’re probably better off ignoring it for the most part.

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: And so, but it’s really hard to do because it’s everywhere. And so, you know, making the act of choice to cut those things out or create boundaries around them for yourself to a place where you feel like it is enhancing your life rather than detracting from and creating an extra expectation or a stress. [00:35:09]

CLIENT: Yeah, and I think that absolutely, like the world hasn’t changed, it’s just our being bombarded by it.

THERAPIST: Yeah, again, status updates on the world much more frequently than we need to do.

CLIENT: Which can also be very depressing when it’s actually bad news or something tragic happens. But you know, along with the whole uncertainty piece, I’m not sure where my career is going at this point. Is it going this way or this way or this way? Am I part of a company, or independent, or all these things? [00:36:03]

And I understand that this is, I have more control over this than I may think, but at the same time, I mean, I’ve often been paralyzed by options.

THERAPIST: Yeah, that’s, you’re very normal in that respect.

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean, even when you go out to dinner, it’s like, yeah, there are some of the things that look good.

THERAPIST: Right, and the pressure to choose the menu item that’s going to make you the happiest, rather than so, one way to help with that, because you know, there are some ways that you can limit your options, but for the most part, you know, living the kind of life you lead, you’re going to be bombarded with having too many choices. So switching the mindset to not what’s the best choice or, you know, for career, you don’t have to pick the best career path. You have to pick a career path that’s going to make you happy. [00:37:07]

Not happiest, not happier than all the other ones, just happy, and you know, when you go out to dinner, picking a choice that you think is going to taste good. If there was another, you know, the thing that paralyzes you is when you choose the item and you think that’s probably going to taste good, and then you look, and then you see, well that item might also taste really good and would it be better?

If it’s good enough, if the other one would have been good enough, that’s fine.

CLIENT: Or if you get that one, and it’s not very good.

THERAPIST: Then get the other one the next time. Right, but then saying, “Well, okay, that’s not actually the end of the world. I’ll probably go out to dinner again.” And just changing the expectation for ourself that we always have to pick the absolute best choice for every choice we’re given. We actually just need to choose something that’s okay.

CLIENT: That’s exactly what the, what happens when I’m writing the songs. [00:38:05]

It’s like, I want the best phrase for this, and not having any choice. It’s got to be the best phrase, and I’m moving away from that. I’m like, this is shit. This is just going to be in there now because I need to get here. I’ll go back. But (inaudible at 00:38:29).

THERAPIST: Yeah, allowing yourself to move on with something that’s good enough. Maybe it’s just good enough for now. You know, we were talking about Legos the other day, a perfect Lego analogy. You know, it’s really easy to build a set the first time you take it out of the box, because all of the little pieces are right there, they’re in their numbered bags, everything happens really neat. My littler one likes to rebuild the sets again and again, but of course, everything just gets thrown together in the giant Lego bin, and so I’ve taught him, you know, when you’re making a plane with four hundred and seventy-seven pieces, and you need, you know, a two by four square, it doesn’t have to be the color that’s in the book. [00:39:04]

We need the right size and shape. It doesn’t have to be the right color. And sometimes, you know, a piece you want a certain piece to be a certain color if it’s on the outside, or whatever, if you’re making an ambulance, it’s got to be red, but he can do a placeholder, and that allows him, right, instead of having a huge meltdown and not being able to build the thing at all because we’re stuck looking for the whatever, he can put in a placeholder. It’s like your phrase. It’s good enough for now because I need to move on, and then if something better pops up, you can replace it.

I think that’s a really nice metaphor.

CLIENT: It sounds like you’ve got some deep experience with this.

THERAPIST: Oh yeah, I have a lot of Lego experience, but it’s a good metaphor for what you’re, and I think one of the reasons I give you those little stories is because when you’re thinking about it in a complex, you know, adult world of career choices, it seems so complicated, and when you think about Lego building, it’s so straightforward, why you just move on, right? [00:40:00]

CLIENT: This bin of options right in front of you.

THERAPIST: Right, too many choices.

CLIENT: You could put four two by ones in place.

THERAPIST: You could, but sometimes just being able to stand apart from it and saying like yeah, it’s the same concept, just being moved along to a little bit more of a significant decision in life.

CLIENT: Well, it’s actually been helpful. I appreciate it. It’s, I think it’s this sense that, failure’s imminent and—

THERAPIST: That makes it really scary to make a choice.

CLIENT: Yeah. I can’t make the wrong decision. And I think sometimes it’s a matter of knowing that putting so much pressure on the decision that what is somebody going to think of this? And it doesn’t make sense, and that’s not good and that’s going to reflect back. [00:40:57]

Well, lately with the songwriting especially, you know what? I’m just going to act as if no one ever will hear this. That might actually be the case, but how am I going to go (inaudible at 00:41:12) if that is, if I think about it that way. If no one knows what I had for dinner, if that was the case, but I think living this life that I am okay with it, as opposed to not living the life for fear that it might not be okay.

Anyway, (pause) so what do you think?

THERAPIST: About which piece?

CLIENT: About Soda Stream being a company on settlement plans?

THERAPIST: I have no thoughts about it to share.

CLIENT: None?

THERAPIST: None.

CLIENT: I’m kind of struck by it. I guess, it’s a great product and I like it. I don’t agree with settlements, illegal settlements, but what are you going to do?

THERAPIST: Sometimes you don’t have to think about it.

CLIENT: Often I don’t, I just keep adding more bubbles. Blares out, you know, drowns out the noise of the thinking. Well I know you’re behind, so I’m going to let you go.

THERAPIST: You don’t need to be responsible for catching me up.

CLIENT: I know, but—

THERAPIST: Well our regular time next week?

CLIENT: Yeah, I think so. I do.

THERAPIST: You need a pen for that or are you all—

CLIENT: I think I have one. I’m supposed to have one. There it is. Okay.

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