TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:
BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:
THERAPIST: Hi.
CLIENT: This is not exactly about feelings, but there's this thing that I've been thinking about.
THERAPIST: Sure.
CLIENT: Which does, I guess anyway.
THERAPIST: Whatever's on your mind.
CLIENT: Yeah, so as you know, at work, there's this whole technology play, you must use it, and um, I guess, so three different employees, one of whom is like a very senior employee, presented the results of this series of focus groups they had done with students, to design the room, that ended up being the room of tables. And so it was interesting, because it talked about what the students about the process some of the students wanted and da-da-da, and then it kind of alighted any reasoning why that didn't happen. They were just like yeah, so students wanted these things, these 20 things, and so we didn't and then they're just like so, you know, there's something and... next slide. I'm like, all right, whatever. And when the employee had said, that she was the students were going on about how she had been walking a donor and the donor's freshman daughter, through Grinnell, and then was like well actually, the freshmen are going to spend more time in Aurora, the standardized office, they work in. And so she goes to show off the main room, which people are always impressed by. It does look impressive.
THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. [00:02:22]
CLIENT: And so the student was like oh, wow, this looks really cool, and said, I can totally see studying here. And the employee was like you know, it was so me, because the first thing she said, I'm like because she's on tour, likely with her mom, so what is she going to say? And, I was like, you know, and it's amazing because unlike us, she was just able to look at technology and just intuit how to use it, what does she do it for. And I think I was making a face by accident, because she suddenly sort of backtracked. She's like, I mean, I don't I'm not really able to instantly intuit, as opposed as saying all of us, and I'm like that's right, because I think what she saw was nice big tables to spread out on, that have outlets in them, which is completely separate from using the various hardware that are in that room. So, I don't know, and she's kind of going on. And so, for some reason, I got really struck by this particular person repeating that and I was thinking that the narrative that is being repeated is that, you know, office management office managers are saying that we, meaning everyone who works in the office as staff, are unable to interact with technology the way that students do, and that students just walk up to technology and they just know what to do with it instantly, and staff just are unable to do that, fundamentally aren't able to do that. So, in addition to being stupid and incorrect, since one time I helped a freshman create an e-mail account, (chuckle) he hadn't used e-mail.
THERAPIST: Wow. [00:04:47]
CLIENT: I was impressed. As an incoming freshman, you have to have an e-mail account.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: And I just stared at him and he's like, "I know it's weird, but I just never..."
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: He's like, I texted people.
THERAPIST: Yeah, texting and Facebook.
CLIENT: I'm like, yeah, sure. Yeah, or Snapchat or whatever, sure, sounds good. But, I feel like students are used to their are used to their being computers, and they are used to computer menus being kind of the same thing. There's probably a dropdown menu somewhere.
THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.
CLIENT: You know? I have to there's probably program files or a list of programs, which to me, that's just pattern recognition, like that's not unique to students or younger people, like anyone can do pattern recognition, blah, blah, blah. And so I was thinking more about this and what I was thinking about is that it like why is this so... like why are people holding on to it so hard? Because this is getting repeated in the face of everything, they're just like no, students just... So, the managers, employee heads, whatever, when they say that, they're relieving themselves of responsibility, to having to be technologically competent, because it's just impossible.
THERAPIST: Right. [00:06:49]
CLIENT: You know, it's okay that someone can't really use PowerPoint or someone else has a hard time with whatever, because it's just not possible for them to do it. It's not that they're ignorant or that they're behind the times or they need training; it's just impossible. So, it kind of -
THERAPIST: They've passed the sensitive developmental period during which one can learn about that.
CLIENT: Yes, they're just, pfff.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: Yeah. It's weird because they generally don't talk about it.
THERAPIST: They're technologically feral.
CLIENT: Hmm?
THERAPIST: They're technologically feral.
CLIENT: It's not even that, because if they were like feral, they would just kind of like poke at things, I feel like.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: And just be like whatever. But it's more like... I don't even know, that they've decided technology is another language, as opposed to an accent.
THERAPIST: I see. [00:07:52]
CLIENT: I think they're talking like thick, cockney, rhyming slang and my God, how could you even understand this, when really, the person just has a mild British accent.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: But they're like no, it's impossible.
THERAPIST: Yeah. I was thinking like, it would be like learning language in the first place or something, if you don't do it by a certain point, or like a sort of cultural norms, then you just can't -
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: Which seems less likely. But anyway, yeah.
CLIENT: I agree. It seems like they feel that they just but it's weird, because they're not exactly saying it's age, because they're including people, like they're saying everyone, just everyone. So, sometimes, if there's a younger staff person in the room, we'll be like, except maybe you, maybe, but like... [00:09:00]
THERAPIST: Yeah, but after 21 or whatever.
CLIENT: Yeah, it's 25, you have a loss. So after that like, you just can't.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: It also makes at any rate.
THERAPIST: It evades responsibility.
CLIENT: Yeah. I feel like they're so, they don't, they're not like, no one has to say, I don't know about that or I don't know how that works or I wasn't aware of. I feel like the point of that narrative is so that they can say, we're not ignorant, it's not our fault, like we've done everything we can, it's just that it's impossible.
THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. [00:10:06]
CLIENT: I was thinking about it and I feel like that's what's being really held onto, and not just by this is what they were sort of managerially being told, like it's just crazy, it's madness. And then, the kind of secondary narrative of staff need to stop being so resistant to using technology. So, frontline stuff are magically not excused. So, on the one hand, no office staff member can possibly understand technology. On the other hand, all office staff must start using technology a lot.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: It's not really that they're not coherent.
THERAPIST: Isn't that contradictory?
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: It's just mutually exclusive.
CLIENT: Yes. And more to the point, they're like, well you just need to understand the technology. Office staff should just learn to understand technology on their own time, and they shouldn't expect a training or whatever. You're just supposed to... I don't know. People, I don't know, what I was thinking about is if those are the narratives you're holding onto, you will never have penetration of interest for youth, because it's impossible and also, you're bad to resist it, and also, you won't get training. It's kind an obvious recipe for disaster, et cetera, and it also puts any tech savvy office staff in this really awkward position. You're just some techie, you're young, you're whatever, basically, you don't count or your opinion doesn't matter, because we just can't learn this. [00:12:57]
I was talking to one of my friends about this last night and how... (sighs) it has been a fairly unchanging narrative, like that is what they said and that is what is being stuck to and clung to. I guess what I was thinking about is that really can't be bucked. Like even if I, like say were to individually talk to five random staffers, five research employees and two senior managers, and they were all like yeah, technology is awesome, it doesn't matter because it's not going to change the narrative, the narrative still is... Especially since one of the senior managers I know wants to install a web server on his computer and do all these crazy things. I mean, obviously he can. He's older than me and he's the new manager, and other people are able to use it. I don't know, I guess part of what I'm really stuck on this one work presentation idea I have, which is on privacy, and one of the reasons why I'm stuck is that it's like I'm trying to talk to staff about yeah, so when you're using these Facebook or Twitter or whatever, their response is well, we don't use those things, like maybe use Facebook but like, there's this weird, like I'm going against an area, because I'm saying yeah, you're just going to use these, it's cool, it's fine, even them saying you can or cannot, your choice, I feel like the default response is no.
THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. [00:15:36]
CLIENT: And so someone asked me, she said well, I would really like a hands-on, whatever, that showed me how to sign up for Twitter, and I'm like, "You go to Twitter's website and you sign up, and then you follow the directions." I don't know, I've had several people say things like that to me and I always find it baffling, but if they're in that narrative of well, obviously, it's impossible for me to use Twitter, then it's impossible for me to try or to use a really obvious sign up process. Or even like research Twitter, and you could Google, you're a research employee, I don't know, research. And that's one of the things I was also thinking about. So I'm thinking, these are all a bunch of research employees. Surely they can research things, but there's like, I don't know, a black hole, Bermuda Triangle thing. So, it's hard for me to let go of wanting to talk to people about it or wanting to have every time someone repeats that narrative, it makes me really crazy, and I just it makes me crazy and my impulse is to be like no, or to say well, but I can or this person can. Now I'm thinking more, trying to think more about, I mean it's obviously not factual, I already knew that, but that narrative serves a certain function that people like and I feel like I'm saying no, you can totally use technology, it would be awesome, and I think what people are hearing is you are ignorant but I can teach you. You're ignorant, but this person, who doesn't even ask, who's stronger than you, who's like way down the food chain, says that she knows enough about the subject to teach the high up on the food chain person. Well that, what's the hierarchy? And, also, it's sort of putting some people in the position of saying, yeah, I do need to learn something, or that I can learn from my colleagues. [00:19:07]
THERAPIST: It means both that you can effectively question the narrative they're espousing and that they may be responsible for learning about technology.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: And making becoming conversive and taking responsibility for the decisions they have to make related to it?
CLIENT: Yeah. And also sort of I guess, letting someone lower down be more knowledgeable. One of the ways this came up is that one of the new employees was asked by Karl to research some of the electronic reserves processes. He wanted her to research and give him review articles and a summary, so he could write some kind of thing, and her response is but I'm new here, I don't work with reserves, there are people who work in reserves, why don't you ask them. And suppose they're not employees and need the employee, whatever, but the people who do reserves both have degrees, they both have office degrees; they just don't have the job title employee. So she felt very frustrated and confused and was like, but they know, why can't they just write it for you and hand it to you? We started talking about it and she found it weird and I found it weird, and I think it's kind of the same. It's important to, like job title, the title of employee is really important and only employees could understand. It's weird, on the one hand he's saying only employees can really understand how technology affects offices, but he's also kind of saying, P.S., employees can't understand technology. It's this weird... [00:22:07]
THERAPIST: It's sort of a double standard.
CLIENT: Yeah. And also, she was feeling kind of set up to fail and I'm like yeah, you kind of are. Or not fail but you're just an unnecessary filter from the people that you're going to have, the people who actually do it, and they'll tell you stuff, and then you'll write it down, hope they understood it correctly, and then pass them off. So it's like why is there a person in here?
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: I guess part of me, I've been thinking well, talking about this or saying what kind of challenge it is, talking to individuals or speaking up in a meeting is maybe effective or not, or at least a thing, but I'm thinking now, more about how I don't think that they actually there isn't actually a desire to let go. The narrative of it's not my fault is the most important one and not having to say I don't know, like those are the actual highest priorities. Also, nothing can be said to be a failure or a mistake, because that would imply, it was wrong, that you didn't do enough research or whatever. [00:24:19]
THERAPIST: I didn't follow the last part?
CLIENT: So, let's say a senior employee is like we're going to start using screen computers for everything. So, that project will never get no one will ever do a survey to say hey, was that helpful or not helpful or whatever, because that would result in information that might say it wasn't great.
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: And therefore, that's your manager was wrong.
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: So, I guess if I'm thinking the most important thing ever is that no one has to say they're wrong or don't know. It's kind of, I don't know, a different way of thinking about it for me. I don't know, it just makes me think a little bit differently about the frustration of being asked for feedback and then having it ignored, because I know they don't really want the feedback, but it's more than that they don't want the feedback, because they don't want to conceive of making a mistake and sort of being like Cambridge can't make mistakes because it's Cambridge. But, it also makes me feel really concerned for like, if I want to talk, if I want to give a presentation or talk to the employees in general about I don't know, online privacy or how I use Final Cut or whatever, my concern is now that people will hear, you know, Karen used Final Cut, I don't know what that is, la-la-la-la-la, and just like drop out of the conversation. I don't know, I want to talk to people about them, like (A) I'm curious to talk to another employee about it, (B) these are things that I'm like, I know about them and I would like to share my knowledge. Some of the media stuff, I'm like, I'm kind of proud of this thing that I made. [00:27:25]
THERAPIST: It's a part of your role.
CLIENT: Yeah, it's supposed to be.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: And I just... I feel like, in giving a presentation about whatever, that the sort of real problem is how do I make people not feel ignorant or not have a knee-jerk, that's impossible, because, reasons, which has nothing to do with the information that I'm telling them. So it's not really like oh, you tell her the information exactly, and I'm not even sure what the answer is, except that it's not really about the content, which -
THERAPIST: It's not as though you have to decide to make your presentation on technology simpler, because these are people who aren't very familiar with technology to the point where they're eyes are going to glaze over when they hear something about technology, and sort of drop out.
CLIENT: Yeah. [00:28:52]
THERAPIST: Irrespective of how straightforward the material is.
CLIENT: Yeah, because they already know that it won't make any sense and it will be gibberish and they won't be able to use it or understand it, so why bother even attempting.
THERAPIST: Well, I guess like they're actually invested in it not making any sense.
CLIENT: Yeah. I am invested in the idea that I can explain technology in non-confusing ways. So, which I feel is like an important job skill and blah-blah-blah, for a good job. I guess it doesn't really matter how well I explain it because that's not what we're talking about, which is basically it's kind of ground me to a halt on a couple of things I wanted to do, because now I'm like well wait, does it really matter if I do this well or if I pull together what I really want? Does the title matter, does the description matter, does any of it matter, because I'm saying technology, therefore, everyone knows what the answer is.
THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. [00:30:32]
CLIENT: Yeah. And I've also been thinking oh, should I try to be informal, dig up something vaguely professional and employee-y, and I'm thinking, it probably won't matter because regardless of what I'm doing or how I look or how I'm presenting it, I am some techie person who's speaking techno babble. It's just, it's really weird. It kind of makes you want to blog a little bit about work, just to have someone to talk to about it or to be like hey, I have this blog. But it also makes sort of (sighs)... I guess it makes me feel more stress about sort of sticking it out for a year and a half, until my degree is finished, because if I were successful at my job, that would counter the prevailing area that people like.
THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. [00:32:20]
CLIENT: So, regardless of what people say, what they feel or want, is for me to not be able to explain it.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: I just started thinking about more in-depth last night and I'm stuck, because I'm like well, that is shitty and I don't know what to do now, and I don't know that I don't think I would be able to usefully talk about this with Chet or other people, and in some ways, I feel like I don't know how much I can talk about it with most of my colleagues, because... I don't know. I know everyone isn't invested in this narrative but it feels that way sometimes, or I feel like I don't know who the people are that are willing to, I guess, try something different or say, I don't know how to use that, can you show me. [00:33:55]
And it's also alienating, because it makes me I mean, people say, well you're not really a employee, which I hate, and I feel like this is sort of reinforcing that well, but you know, you're not really a employee, you're not really like the rest of us, you're not really like office staff. You're this weird outlier who doesn't count.
THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.
CLIENT: On the other hand, it does make me feel better about stop and giving feedback. (laughs) So that's something good I guess. And along with that, I've also noticed that I've been feeling very, I guess resentful and upset that, not like I haven't really gotten encouragement or mentorship from the research employees that I work with. I think it's good that I'm in office school, like oh yeah, you should have a degree, but I don't feel like they're kind of like yeah, you should totally become a employee, for these reasons, and you would be good at being a employee or if you thought of just being a employee. I don't know, I mean I've been thinking of it in terms of, can I please have a mentor, that would be nice, but I think also, when they were applying for the research employee job, that it went too far and no one encouraged me to apply, which I hadn't really thought about until recently. I didn't apply for other reasons, but...
THERAPIST: Right. [00:36:49]
CLIENT: It is kind of surprising that given my job and blah-blah, that I'm in office school and everyone was like hey!
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: You have to try. It turns out one of the people who got the job, they decided that her PhD, not in office science, in a related field, counted as an acceptable substitute for a office degree, which doesn't make sense to me but happened, even though the job description didn't she shouldn't have been able to. I mean, it may have said MA or equivalent and I assumed they meant MA or equivalent, like masters in information science or whatever, some other office thing. [00:38:26]
And the other thing was I talked to Dr. [Tynes?] last week, about had this meeting with her and I feel like, I felt for a little while, the extra Wellbutrin is making me irritable and I have just been feeling really irritable. And her response was well, maybe your coworkers should know that you're upset or unhappy, like maybe it's okay to be to express your irritation or anger at not at people but, you know, in an acceptable, non-screaming way, which I don't know, I feel like I'm used to my job being, I'll just scoot over this technology part for you, that it feels weird to... I don't know, express that I'm really annoyed by X thing or Y thing, like I don't want to be the person who's always criticizing, but on the other hand, maybe I'm only that person in my head and that in actuality, I could just do that. [00:40:37]
THERAPIST: This is kind of a different narrative, but it hasn't tended to work out well with speaking up and speaking critically.
CLIENT: Yeah. I was thinking speaking up or critically to people who are at my level.
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: Directing that up, because directing it up really doesn't go anywhere. But I was like, I don't know how it is for... I guess needed to show my coworkers about stuff.
PAUSE: [00:42:07 to 00:43:17]
CLIENT: I guess basically, I don't know how to be in my job or my office or whatever. I feel like I know what my job is but doing that, like I can't just be like whatever, I'm just going to do my job and block out these other things, because, I mean this cubicle, and people are asking questions or saying he doesn't work and blah-blah-blah. I know how to be a help desk worker, I know how to do IT service, I know how to explain thing to people, but I don't really feel like those are necessarily helping me right now and I'm not sure, I guess I don't know what I should be doing or what I could do that would make it easier to deal with, because the reference employee is going to be like fuck it, I'm just going to focus on history questions.
THERAPIST: Right. [00:44:59]
CLIENT: Or access, we're just doing reserves, we're just doing this.
THERAPIST: You're not sort of posing a strategic question exactly, so much as expressing some despair.
CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, I guess I just (sighs) I mean yeah, like I just, it feels like there's not it's unclear to me, like why aren't I doing any aspect of what I think my job is? I end up bring frustrated or someone argues with me about it or like Chet is like, I want you to do the redo work that students do, or whatever, and it doesn't feel like I'm able to use my brain or use my skills or really do the things I'm good at. So, I guess part of me kind of wants to switch to a office job where I don't see the public and I'm like in the back processing government documents forever, or something. (pause) [00:47:09]
THERAPIST: I guess, I'm not really sure what to say. I can understand certainly, with your kind of, sort of theory about the narrative and play, or sort of invested, you know, getting invested in it, and how that and then the other aspects of your job that you're describing now, function to alienate you. I guess that's how it sounds to me, is that having the sort of area that you describe almost gives you a comfortable place to sit with things. Not a happy place, but in explaining why you get nowhere with certain things, you can be more okay with getting nowhere with things. But then there are these other aspects of your job that you're describing now, where like you can't shield yourself from or protect yourself from or do anything about, where you're sort of inevitable, you're kind of fed up or inevitably frustrated or undermined.
CLIENT: Yeah. [00:49:06]
THERAPIST: With sort of your core job, some of your core job functions. We need to stop.
CLIENT: Okay. See you next week.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Okay.
END TRANSCRIPT
