TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: I’m on.

THERAPIST: Are you here? (ph) I’m here, too.

CLIENT: All right. (pause) So, yeah. How are you?

THERAPIST: I’m fine, thank you.

CLIENT: Good, good.

THERAPIST: How are you?

CLIENT: Yeah, I am not too bad.

THERAPIST: Okay. Now I need all of the real answers! The more introspective answers, actually.

CLIENT: Uh... yeah, this past week has been a whole lot of entertaining, and travelling around, and seeing a lot of things, playing tour guide, and... (clears throat) And I was just...

THERAPIST: How connected did you feel to your guests? [00:00:41]

CLIENT: Fairly. (pause) Yeah, I have to say fairly. I actually, I enjoyed... My friends drove here from Portland, and they were here... here, so it was like, a week ago Sunday till Wednesday, then they rode down to DC. Then... Julie and I took the, drove to Hamden and took the train down on Thursday. We were there until Saturday. We were planning on staying until Sunday, but it was just... They left Saturday, so we were going to be there an extra day. And we found out that... some friends of ours, also from Portland, happened to be in town. So we got to see them on Saturday. After that, another set of friends, we went to see on Saturday and we were set up to leave Saturday evening, because we were just too... [00:01:43]

THERAPIST: Too wiped out! (chuckles)

CLIENT: Spent, yeah. So...

THERAPIST: That’s a lot of catching up.

CLIENT: It is. It’s a lot of face time, but you know, normally I would never, ever, ever schedule that amount of social, you know, engagements in the course of 24 hours, but it was actually really surprisingly good. I enjoyed...

THERAPIST: That’s great!

CLIENT: Yeah, so I mean, it’s... because it’s, these are the people who (sighs) who I think about when I think about who I want to see, and the friends that I want to be with these people, so... (sighs) Yeah. That was... that was nice. But, you know, Saturday night getting home at 10:30 or something like that, it just like, it was just draining. Yesterday was really hard, because Julie and I were both very low, very... (pause) Neither one of us could pull each other out and... both hurting, and both very sensitive, and emotional. And (sighs)... [00:03:00]

(pause) So I went to the gym. We were both supposed to go, but... I kind of begged her to go, because you know, I figured it would be good for both of us. That was the plan. (pause) She had this answer of, “No, I just want to stay in bed forever.” (chuckles) I’m like, “Okay. I’m going to the gym.” So I went and I... got groceries and came back and I was in a better place. I think she was in a better place, so that was kind of... Because we hadn’t been to the gym in a week, you know, so it was like, I knew the amount of stress that I was encountering each day... entertaining, feeding... hosting. [00:03:56]

Brittany (ph) also staying with us for the (inaudible)... and just being in DC, of all places (sighs), which I really don’t like, but... I feel... I don’t know what the experience is, but it’s the kind of thing where you look forward to something, but then when it’s over, you’re really happy it’s over, you know? (chuckles) It’s like, you kind of have your life back and you don’t have something that’s just like... looming in the future or... that you know is going to test you a bit, you know?

THERAPIST: I mean, it sounds like it was good to see, it was good to spend time with the people, but there were some challenges to scheduling (client affirms) and travelling.

CLIENT: And just the environment and... So, anyway, it was... it was good. And I’m glad it’s over. And... (pause) Yeah, I just... kind of just getting back into my head on some things. [00:05:12]

THERAPIST: Do you need to be in your head?

CLIENT: Well, what I mean by that is, I’m just kind of getting back to the things that I want to work on, and I store them in my head, I think. (chuckles) (pause) And because my dad’s birthday is coming up in a week, and you know, I had hoped to have this letter written and sent off by my birthday, then by his birthday and then (sighs)... Yeah, so... But, you know... (pause) Something that I’ve been thinking about off and on the past couple of weeks is, you know... I think I’ve tended to look at the circumstances in my life negatively, as like, “This happened to me, I’m a victim of this or that...” [00:06:13]

THERAPIST: Feeling passive?

CLIENT: Yeah. And... sure, all of those things happened and, sure, I can attribute... certain, what I would consider negative outcomes as a result (chuckles), which we’ve discussed for the past few years. And, you know, I think about... (chuckles) “normal people,” if there is such a thing. If there are people who don’t experience sexual abuse in their families, for example.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: They don’t ex ...

THERAPIST: The majority of people don’t experience sexual abuse in their families.

CLIENT: Really? Okay. Well, great. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: But there is reason, normal people and normal experience.

CLIENT: Uh-hmm, yeah. I guess what I mean is... (sighs) Everyone has their own trauma, right? I mean, I don’t necessarily believe that... that every person experiences some sort of hell in their life. I don’t necessarily believe that. At the same time, is that hell that we experience at some point in our lives what makes us interesting, what makes us stronger, what makes us... [00:07:37]

THERAPIST: It can be, yeah.

CLIENT: ...you know, creative. It makes us... And, you know, if we never experienced... I mean, if I never experienced... shame, guilt, and years and years of repression, all of that... would I be the person I am today? And I guess I say that with a grin, because it’s like, “Well, God, I would hope not,” because this is kind of a miserable time I’ve had! (pause) But what’s the alternative? Would I be some boring person who fits the, you know... footprint of every other 6’2” person in this country? I don’t know, but... but what can I point to and say, “Well, these things about me here, that I like, those things may have come from that struggle.” [00:08:40]

THERAPIST: Yeah. I think... we’ll never know, obviously, you know, what’s the result of what would you, how would you be different if you hadn’t had those particular traumas. But I think we can look at, you know, the things you have to express, and the way you have to express them are of value. You know, your songs, your stories, the perspective that you bring to other people’s stories. You know like, on your website, the... It’s... Absolutely your perspective is impacted by the experiences you have, good and bad experiences (client affirms), not just things that feel traumatic, but also, you know, other things that you’ve experienced in your life. You know, a win at little league baseball, who knows?

CLIENT: That’s okay. (chuckles) Yeah.

THERAPIST: But, yeah, I mean there are a lot that you bring, and it’s all, somehow a result of accumulated experience and the ways that you’ve chosen to respond to them. [00:09:42]

CLIENT: Yeah. And that seems like it’s a process more of a statement, you know, responding to it. And...

THERAPIST: Yeah. I mean, I think that’s what your, that’s a lot of what your therapy work is, is you’re dealing, deciding to respond to it a way that’s more adaptive (client affirms), for you and if other people benefit from that, great, but... I think...

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean, slowly.

THERAPIST: But, yeah. Well, I think rightly so, primarily about you.

CLIENT: Yeah. And I guess an extension of all this thought is... I think for a while I tried to think of the good things that... that my dad did for me. And I’m hard pressed to find a lot, I really am.

THERAPIST: The good things may not come from dad.

CLIENT: And they might be overshadowed by the negative things. You know, just too... too small, and paling in comparison to what... to the negative things. That said... and I don’t want to say, “Gee, thanks Dad, for making me so screwed up that I’m, you know, I’m writing a melody,” (chuckles), you know? Because, again, you cannot attribute that to that. [00:11:05]

Um... but (sighs), is there a way to celebrate who I am... as opposed to... lament who I am, because of what has happened to me, you know, because what’s happened to me, I can try to wear that as some sort of cape, you know? And say, “Look at me, look at what happened to me.” But I don’t want everything to be cast in the reflection of that, you know? That’s, everything has to be viewed with the... you know... (sighs) I don’t know... the handicap of that, you know?

THERAPIST: Being able to incorporate those things as a part of your life, rather than your life as a reaction to those things. [00:12:20]

CLIENT: Yeah... (pause) And I guess that’s a more... perhaps constructive approach, but at the same time... (pause) It’s like, I just want to disown them, you know, and just deal with them and then cast them aside.

THERAPIST: And be done with it?

CLIENT: Yeah, as opposed to having to be a part of my life, you know. (chuckles) And be done with it, yes like, everything that I hope to do is just one off’s: just go to the gym once, and I’m good.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I’m not sure you can excise them completely.

CLIENT: I’ll take your word for it. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: But... and I think, but you can package them up neatly, so they don’t need to be cumbersome. [00:13:20]

CLIENT: Yeah? (sighs) Okay. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: I’m sure I must have shared my baggage... airport scenario with you at some point?

CLIENT: It sounds familiar, but please... I must need it again. (both chuckle)

THERAPIST: So, often, you know, people talk about carrying their baggage around with them. I’ve used that sort of phrase to think about, well like, I don’t think we can necessarily excise, you know, experiences in our life, and then never deal with them again, or not notice how they maybe impact us. But I think, maybe a possibility is thinking about kind of these experiences of your life, that you maybe wish you hadn’t had: you package them up nicely in a rolling suitcase that’s easy to carry around with you, and store it somewhere, and lock the cabinet in the airport, which is different than... avoidance or denial, because you know it’s there. To me, the idea of, you know, packaging it up nicely into your rolling suitcase is that you’ve processed it. You know, you haven’t said, “I’m not looking at that. It’s scary. I’m going to stick my head in the sand.” You’ve said, “Okay, it’s there, it happened to me, I’ve looked at it, I understand it. This is how I’m coping with it. I’m putting it over there, where it doesn’t get in my way anymore.” And you go on, about your life. That’s my visual (chuckles) for some of the work that we do in here. [00:14:52]

CLIENT: And the airline can’t just lose it for you, you know, like they do? (chuckles)

THERAPIST: If they did, you wouldn’t be in control.

CLIENT: True. Well...

THERAPIST: I think you want to be in control, you decide where you put it. Is it in some, you know, locker somewhere? I don’t think you want to leave it up to the airline to decide what to do with your significant experiences. (chuckles)

CLIENT: Yeah. Well... I guess what I, what I thought of, when you were talking that was how, for so long, I’ve been identified by my baggage. I’ve identified myself by my baggage. Like, “That baggage—I belong to it.”

THERAPIST: Right! So that’s like, carrying it around with you, forgetting to stow it some place.

CLIENT: Or having it carry me around, you know, and drag me around and... (clears throat) and to wear the clothes in that bag, which is to say, you know, “This is, this is the mess that I am and I’m going to... put it front of you, so that it’s unmistakable that I’ve suffered,” or whatever, you know. And I don’t think I do that, but... [00:16:05]

I do think... it has been in the forefront of my mind as a filter through which I try to understand things. Like, “Why am I such and such a way, why am I this, why am I that?” That helps, sure. (clears throat) But I think it helps explain things as they are, as opposed to me controlling the way I want things to be. You know, on the way over here, I just picked up this prep kit for my colonoscopy (chuckles) next Monday, my second one. I’m really looking forward to it.

And, you know, for a second it made me wonder, you know, because my sister was diagnosed with colon cancer five years ago. I’ve had one... they said, check back in three years. Well, it’s been five years. Anyway, so I thought to myself, “Well, what if they find something? What will I do then? What would I do?” Would I say... “Okay, you know what? Screw this; I’m tired of living under the shadow of shame, guilt, and I can’t do this, I can’t do that because I’m just flawed.” Or will I say, “You know, I’ve only got five months, say, five years to live...,” perhaps, you know. Or what will be the impact of such a diagnosis? Will it, you know, spur me to act in a way that I want to act, or is it... what would it do? [00:17:40]

THERAPIST: What would be different, if you were spurred to act the way you want to act? What would that... be?

CLIENT: Well, that’s, I haven’t thought about that one yet. It was just a short one (inaudible) (therapist chuckles) And that’s a good question. Maybe that’s something that requires some decent reflection, because... you know, there is that, and then there is the, “Why am I not doing this now?” question after that.

THERAPIST: Well, once you figure out what you want to do, you can do it before, without having to wait for some scary diagnosis.

CLIENT: (chuckles) Well, yeah. That’s what I mean. It’s like, well, what, you know, if these are the things that I would do, had I, you know, been diagnosed with cancer or something... fine. Then but why am I not doing those now? And (sighs)... it’s hard to say, because I, you know, I can’t even think of how I would... I mean, I think I am doing things differently now than I maybe would have five years ago, but what (sighs) holds me back now, I don’t know. I don’t know if I am being held back. So I guess I’ll have to... perhaps, you know, mull that over a bit (sighs) and try to... see if there is a different way of living that I would have... I mean, honestly I don’t know if I’d be with my wife. I don’t know. I think it depends on my... (pause) I don’t know. [00:19:14]

THERAPIST: (pause) What makes you doubt that you’d be with be married?

CLIENT: Sometimes I wonder...

THERAPIST: Married to her.

CLIENT: ...if she would be better off with someone else, someone who appreciates her more, somebody who... adores her all the time, somebody who doesn’t hide things from her, somebody who doesn’t... (pause) I just sometimes think she can do better.

(pause 00:20:00 to 00:20:22)

I don’t know.

THERAPIST: It’s interesting that your answer is all about her... and not about you.

CLIENT: (pause) I think the thought that I don’t love her scares me.

THERAPIST: (pause) Was there a time when you didn’t doubt that?

CLIENT: (pause) (sighs) It’s been awhile. (pause) I don’t know how long, or when it was, but... I do wonder if I loved me, would I love her? I assume that to be true. (pause) If I don’t love me, why would someone else? [00:21:43]

THERAPIST: Well, they might not be carrying around the same sense of shame. I mean, I think what gets in the way of you feeling loving towards yourself is the shame that you feel.

CLIENT: Yeah, and I understand how, you know, going to a massage place for... the wonder of what could happen doesn’t necessarily alleviate that shame. It just seems to compound it. And (sighs)... you know, the things, whatever it is. (pause) (sighs) Not doing things that I know are good for me. It doesn’t necessarily compound it, but it doesn’t... it doesn’t relieve me at all. (pause) (sighs) I don’t know. [00:22:56]

THERAPIST: (sound of cracking knuckles) Sorry; bad habit.

CLIENT: That’s all right. I do it too. I don’t think I’ve ever heard you do it! (chuckles)

THERAPIST: I’m usually good about not doing it during a session (ph). (chuckles)

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. Um... (sighs) I don’t know. I don’t know. And I just (sighs)... (pause) I don’t know, I’m kind of lost right now. Must be that knuckle crack. (chuckles) No, I don’t, I (sighs)... (pause) Perhaps the expectations that I put on loving me are too much. Maybe it’s that... I can’t love myself unless I walk this straight and narrow path. I can’t love myself unless I do this, that, or the other thing. [00:24:12]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Can you love your imperfect self, because you’re not ever going to be perfect.

CLIENT: I’m not going to come back here again! (both chuckle) No, yeah, and I think that’s part of what I was alluding to earlier with the, you know... who I am as a result of my experiences. (pause) What else can I bargain for, you know? I mean (chuckles) I don’t have a choice. I mean, and that’s who I am. I’m shaped this way, carved that way, and love it or leave it, that’s who I am. Can I view that as something lovable, as opposed to something... you know (clears throat) condemnable, you know? And something which... seems to dwell on its own imperfection in order to... be unlovable or something, I don’t know. [00:25:20]

THERAPIST: So, it’s interesting that, as you talk, you equate your experiences to you. Like, just the hist , your history of experiences, or the sum total of your experiences; is that the same thing as who you are?

CLIENT: (pause) (chuckles) No, it’s what I haven’t done, that’s who I am. (chuckles) And I think that’s... You know, we talked about that.

THERAPIST: That seems unfair to, they both seem unfair.

CLIENT: Yeah, and they’re (chuckles)... It’s kind of one of those battles you just can’t win.

THERAPIST: Yeah, so I wonder, I mean, is there a way to define you that’s not... not just about what you’ve done or haven’t done. I mean, those are your, what you have and haven’t done are experiences, but that’s not necessarily who you are. Like, there is some human essence that’s undefined. (pause) (client clears throat and affirms) But it seems like who a person is seems more complicated than a list of their, you know, their life’s resume. [00:26:43]

CLIENT: Yeah. But the funny thing is, it’s not the life’s resume, it’s just the life’s... you know... bad things.

THERAPIST: Yeah, it’s not, you’re not even...

CLIENT: It’s not the good things.

THERAPIST: For some reason, you’re not accounting for the other stuff.

CLIENT: Yeah, that’s like, it doesn’t matter, because there is all this other stuff. I don’t know. I... (therapist sneezes and excuses) Would you like a... tissue?

THERAPIST: Sure. It doesn’t feel like spring out there, but...

CLIENT: (chuckles) Allergies?

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause) And clients with cats.

CLIENT: Really? (therapist affirms) Wow! They come in here with just cat hair all over them?

THERAPIST: Oh, it doesn’t matter. I don’t have to see the hair! (chuckles)

CLIENT: Oh my God! Well, I don’t have a cat. (chuckles) Do you have cats? [00:27:46]

THERAPIST: I have no cats.

CLIENT: Do you have a dog?

THERAPIST: It died, no. (chuckles)

CLIENT: I guess it was...

THERAPIST: I did tell you about the... the eye drops for the cats.

CLIENT: That’s right. Yeah, I picked some of that up, actually. (chuckles) I think you were telling me that you were at somebody’s house and they had a cat or something. You were trying to, eye drops to your child and they had contacts, is that right?

THERAPIST: Well, I have contacts. My child also has my allergies.

CLIENT: Oh, lovely. Wow! Yeah, I’m allergic to a lot of cats myself, but not all of them. Anyway... (chuckles) My aunts love (ph) cats. Well I don’t have to be part of your intake. (therapist chuckles) “Do you have cats? Sorry, I’m not accepting new patients!” (both chuckle)

Yeah, I guess (sighs)... (sighs) You know, it’s just a... I guess if I could summarize this struggle, it would be... believing that I can be lovable and accept myself on a fundamental level that doesn’t depend upon what I’ve done, or what’s happened to me, or what I think about doing, and to continually maintain activities that reinforce that. And... so it’s a belief system, it’s an act-based, if I can use that word... [00:29:58]

THERAPIST: Behaviorally based.

CLIENT: Yeah, what you said. (chuckles) And maybe that’s just it. Maybe it’s those two things that, together if maintained, can be a way that I would want to live if I were given a five-year death sentence, or whatever.

THERAPIST: When you watch a movie, or read a book, or read a human-interest story; how do you determine whether or not the subject, the character, is good or bad, lovable or unlovable?

CLIENT: (pause) Usually it’s a sense of humor. (pause) I mean, you look at somebody like... for example... The Great (sic) Lebowski. Have you seen that? (therapist affirms) A complete waste, right? I mean, (chuckles) not to be judgmental, but doesn’t have a lot... but, I mean, he’s lovable. [00:31:20]

THERAPIST: (pause) So what stops you from giving yourself the same... compassion?

CLIENT: (sighs) (pause) I guess that is the question. I don’t know. (pause) I think the paths to fantasy and escape are so well worn, so slippery, greased in fact, that... I think my mind dwells more in the fantasy and the “what if’s” than the... [00:32:22]

THERAPIST: What is.

CLIENT: What is or what... could be. And I say, “could be” in terms of an... aspirational way, not a “What if I...”

THERAPIST: But even that, even the aspirational way, it assumes that I’m not okay, I’m not good enough as is, I’m not lovable as is. It’s a nicer way of saying it. I could do this, and then I’d be okay.

CLIENT: Yeah. Well, what I mean to say is... putting my energies toward something that’s constructive, as opposed to something that’s destructive. When I say, “could be,” like, “I could go to the gym. I could pick up the guitar and just noodle,” you know? That’s what I mean by “could be.” I mean, maybe that is, but it’s not necessarily guaranteed is, because I can easily say, “Oh, I’m not going to the gym today. I’m just going to eat ice cream all day.” I mean, that would suck, you know...

THERAPIST: But your value as a person doesn’t necessarily change. Or does it? Can you like yourself, even on days when you don’t go to the gym and eat ice cream all day? [00:33:29]

CLIENT: No. (pause) Unless I went to the gym yesterday. (chuckles) It’s hard, it really is.

THERAPIST: I would challenge you to do that, the love yourself either way.

CLIENT: Eat ice cream all day?

THERAPIST: Be compassionate and loving toward yourself anyway.

CLIENT: “Honey, I’m going to the store and load up on Ben and Jerry’s.” Yeah, I mean I...

THERAPIST: Right? Because I mean, that’s part of what acceptance is. (client affirms) Love, compassion?

CLIENT: Okay, well, let me step back. I think I did do that, or I have done it a couple of times. When I went to that massage place and was assisted, basically and I didn’t... catastrophize that. Normally I would. Normally, I would say, “I am such a horrible person. I have to go basically confess this, because I’m just so awful. I should be punished for this,” whatever. [00:34:28]

Yesterday, I... was feeling really bad and... somewhere in there it occurred to me that I’m not going to be... This is not terminal. And that’s... and actually going to the gym, when I knew that I could do that and help, that’s not something that I’m very good at doing. So, yes. I can do that, but it’s not my typical reaction. (sound, possibly of tossing something in the trashcan)

THERAPIST: Close!

CLIENT: Yeah... close. (pause) So, I think I’m getting there, and so I think that...

THERAPIST: Yeah, so that’s part of the practice.

CLIENT: Believe and behavior system that’s... it’s kind of wound up in my... my ideal way of living, you know? What’s helpful to me, what’s healthy and what’s... what is... [00:35:40]

THERAPIST: Yeah. So I think the goal is to be able to... accept yourself, love yourself, be compassionate all of the time. You don’t necessarily have to approve of every decision you make, but that doesn’t, when you make a decision or do something that you disapprove of, that doesn’t have to mean that you remove your acceptance of the person. Have you heard the term “unconditional positive regard”? (pause) All right. So it, the idea... that term actually comes from humanistic therapy, this guy Rogers, I believe. I hope I’m right for the grad students listening. (both chuckle)

CLIENT: Oh boy! Grad students!

THERAPIST: But the idea is that a therapist should hold unconditional positive regard for their clients. If you can’t do that, how can someone possibly really feel safe to talk about whatever it is they need to talk about, how could someone grow and change in an environment where they’re not being consistently supported for who they are? That does not need to mean that the therapist... reinforces, condones, or accepts every single behavior that a client might have, right? [00:37:03]

So, I mean, if you came in here, what you really wanted to do is stop smoking, me saying like, “Great! You had five packs of cigarettes this week? That’s awesome!” That’s not necessarily going to be helpful. However, at the same time that I might not encourage the behavior, I could still encourage and accept you for the struggle that you’re going through, for the person that you are. I think the same thing about how you feel about yourself. Finding a way to separate... judgment of behavior from judgment of the person.

You judge yourself based on your behavior, as a good or bad person. That’s what shame is. “I’m a bad person because I did X or because I thought X.” Being able to separate that and say, “I’m a good person with value. I like who I am. I dislike that choice I made,” but they are separate. (client affirms) It can be tricky to practice that, and figure out how to separate judging the behavior from judging the person. But I think it’s very doable. (client affirms) It’s probably something your par , dad (I haven’t heard much about mom’s parenting), but I don’t think dad got it very well, because it sounds like you often felt judged. It didn’t sound like you felt, as a kid, that you had that sense of unconditional positive regard from a parent. [00:38:34]

CLIENT: No, I don’t think so. (pause) I just had a thought I wanted to go on. I’m trying to... cling to it. (pause) Oh, well. (pause) Yeah. (sighs) I guess I just... (chuckles) I sometimes wonder if... (pause) if everyone else basically just assumes that I’m going to thrive, except me. Am I the only one standing in my way? Probably. And this unconditional positive regard... (chuckles) that’s just like... I don’t know, some sort of triple oxymoron or something (chuckles) in my... situation. But (sighs)... yeah, I don’t know. I can understand...

THERAPIST: You place a lot of conditions on how you regard yourself. (client affirms) Tons of them. (client affirms) High ones.

CLIENT: High, impossible ones, impossible and meaningless, basically. But I don’t, I’m going to have to try to... to work on that idea of accepting a person, despite the behavior. (pause) (chuckles) It’s kind of like when I think of is like foreigners saying, “We love Americans, we just hate your government, what you do,” you know. And maybe that’s... not it, but... (sighs) (pause) But I’m going to have to try. I want to try to... embrace that... that mindset, because there are circumstances for everything. To understand the circumstances is kind of beside the point, right? I mean it doesn’t, I don’t have to say, “Well, I can accept this because I am trying to escape right now and that’s a normal reaction to this.” Well, you know... yeah, that’s important, but... [00:41:57]

THERAPIST: Yeah, understanding is a piece, but it’s not everything and it doesn’t need to be. (client affirms) It doesn’t need to be part of everything.

CLIENT: Yeah, and I think I drive that too much. I think I drive for sense, an explanation, or a reason... as an answer.

(pause 00:42:26 to 00:43:09)

You know what I said earlier about... not everyone having sexual abuse happen in their family? (pause) (sighs) Do you have a philosophy or even a... a comprehension of... You have clients of all ages, I’m guessing.

THERAPIST: Between the ages of 18 and death. (chuckles) I don’t see kids.

CLIENT: That’s close enough. And death! Up to, but not including.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (chuckles) I see adults. That’s...

CLIENT: (pause) Is it your experience, or your understanding, or your expectation, or assumption that... Like, when I think of people, when I try to think of other people who have experienced something bad in their life, and how they might deal with it, or how... I mean like, a friend of mine’s dad was a gambler. That, to me, is just not the same thing, you know? Not the same stigma around gambling as there is around sexual abuse and incest. And (sighs) but do people have happy childhoods? Happy lives without... [00:44:45]

THERAPIST: With no unhappiness ever?

CLIENT: Well, without just that kind of shit, you know? I mean, are all things basically equal in the end?

THERAPIST: I doubt it, although I’m not an authority on fairness. You know... yes, people have vast experiences in their lives. I don’t think there is any rhyme or reason to who has what experience. But I mean, the same way that some people never face a devastating illness, you know? Some people live their whole lives and die at a ripe old age of nothing major. Other people face cancer and... You know? Or other chronic illnesses.

So yeah, I mean, there are some people that don’t have any kind of family trauma, and you know, have I think what you were referring to as a happy childhood; other people don’t. They’re not, you know, people respond to these things in different ways. [00:45:52]

Somebody can have what sounds like a perfectly happy childhood with no noticeable or identifiable trauma in it, and not be happy. That’s the thing: happiness isn’t determined, self-satisfaction, or what we think of as happiness, is not necessarily determined by your experience. That’s the tricky thing about depression, right? (client affirms) People can be depressed with no identifiable trigger, and people can have what you would think would be like, a really sound trigger for an episode of depression, and not be depressed.

CLIENT: Yeah. I guess I just... Yeah, I am, you’re right. It’s nothing as... it’s not an equalizer.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I mean, life is actually not fair. [00:46:53]

CLIENT: (chuckles) But I guess what I think of is, you know, my father and how he was brought up, and how his father was brought up, and how these things can just kind of go on and on and on, as being kind of to be expected, you know.

THERAPIST: Families are all very different. There is a cycle. I mean, someone who’s experienced some sort of either sexual abuse or physical abuse is more likely to repeat that.

CLIENT: Yeah, I guess that’s what I mean as far as my father’s parenting habits were taught by his father, and his father’s taught by his father, and so on.

THERAPIST: I mean, yeah, there does seem to be...

CLIENT: Cyclical...

THERAPIST: ...generational impact; (client affirms) however, it’s not one to one correspondence. So there are plenty of children that grew up in homes where there was some sort of abuse (emotional, physical, sexual), that go on to either be part of families, or raise families where there is no abuse. It’s not a determinant. But there certainly is a generational impact. [00:47:55]

CLIENT: Yeah. I don’t know. I’m always trying to think of or... analogize how another person might be experiencing, or have experienced, some sort of... incident in their life, and how they deal with it very well. How many people are out there, suffering in a way that’s similar to me, you know? I just assume it’s everybody, because I used to think my family was normal, you know.

THERAPIST: Of course.

CLIENT: And... no one’s going to come out and say, “Oh, yeah. No, I was raped as a teenager,” or whatever.

THERAPIST: Some people will. [00:48:55]

CLIENT: Some people (chuckles) will. But...

THERAPIST: And it can be quite concerning (ph), to realize that there are people who have similar experiences. But I think it’s also important to recognize that it’s not, it doesn’t have to determine your happiness.

CLIENT: True, true. But I guess I just (sighs)... and I think this is why I try to find analogies or... share experiences, because it seems like well, in that way I can rest easy with it, because everybody... and that’s kind of a diversion, diversion I think. Anyway...

THERAPIST: Why don’t we stop there for today. Are we on for Friday as normal?

CLIENT: Yeah, I guess. Yeah. Friday at...

THERAPIST: 12:30.

CLIENT: Yeah.

END TRANSCRIPT