TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: I read it and then I felt a little bit like a voyeur. Certainly I’m not going to edit it or change it, so I started to wonder what felt useful to you about having me read it. I know that I’ve offered.

CLIENT: I think you’ve read most of it before.

THERAPIST: I have.

CLIENT: When you say that you felt like a voyeur, what do you mean?

THERAPIST: It’s a very personal letter from you to your dad and none of the information is really new to me. As you’ve said, I’ve read most of that letter before and we’ve talked about all of the things that you talk about in the letter. They are things we’ve really talked about at length, so it’s not that it was information that I felt that I shouldn’t be privy to. But it was your direct communication to him, so I guess that’s the part that felt like these were really the things that Bryce wants to talk to his dad about, not the things he wants to talk to me about. [00:01:06] They are a lot of the same things but . . . (both laugh) Not the content, but the delivery. This is sort of a private thing that maybe I shouldn’t be . . ?

CLIENT: No, at this point I was kind of desperate. I needed to get this thing out and I need to get past this and see what can be done as a result.

THERAPIST: You’ve been holding onto it for a long time.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) This week has been hard.

THERAPIST: This week in particular?

CLIENT: Yeah. It had nothing to do with that letter necessarily, but the part that I wrote about, self-destructive behavior, is something that I wrote yesterday. [00:02:02] I really struggle with how to not engage in that. It’s a problem for me. I’m not going to try to make excuses, but this week there is a lot going on. I had a colonoscopy on Monday. I am now down to two drugs instead of three as of Monday. Yesterday I dropped Julie off at her work appointment that went from 10:00 until 4:00. On the way home, I drove past three different massage places and didn’t stop – and I said to myself, “You know, I really do have control over feeling bad or not. You really do have control over this.” [00:03:06] It’s a choice. You either decide to feel good about creating the life you want to live or you can succumb to the cheap and easy, but damaging. I got home and I was thrilled. I was thrilled that I didn’t stop. Last night when I went to the gym, I stopped by this new place that was advertising and the woman spoke two or three words of English and at the half appointment I flipped over and I had an erection. [00:04:05] She proceeded to massage my chest. She uncovered my genitals and kind of nodded, like “is that okay?” I thought she was just uncovering me because some places that I’ve been to I have been uncovered, basically. Well, I’m not about to say that I had no idea what she was going to do, but then she then proceeded to give me a hand job and I don’t think I’ve felt lower since Mexico. (pause) [00:05:05] What bothers me the most, I think, is that I don’t seem like I can control thinking about it or doing it. I can feel horrible afterwards. I can say, “This has got to stop.” I can say, “You know . . .” all sorts of things, but the behavior hasn’t changed.

THERAPIST: Not every time.

CLIENT: No, you’re right; and that’s the one thing, I think, that I was clinging to yesterday was that I can’t beat myself up over this because I did manage to live the way I wanted to (sniggers) one part of the day and not the other part of the day.

THERAPIST: You said you drove by three places, so there were three times when you made the decision to somehow stop yourself from pursuing what feels like the cheap-and-easy, short-term solution; and one time when you didn’t. [00:06:15] What was the difference? What allowed you to drive by the first three times and not the last?

CLIENT: And that’s what I was trying to figure out because I was going to the gym and I did go to the gym, but that’s why setting out to do something that’s good for me isn’t always free from diversions or downplaying the . . . Because I said to myself, “Maybe you should go to the gym first and see how you feel afterwards. Maybe you won’t feel like you even want to do this.” [00:07:08] That went in one ear and out the other. (pause) I don’t know what to do. I understand that my even going there and doing that is almost a microcosm of my whole life. Am I that person? Am I going to be basing myself solely on the person who went and got that erotic massage? I could do that and feel horrible. Sure. (sniggers) I did that very well.

THERAPIST: You don’t want to feel horrible. [00:07:58]

CLIENT: I don’t. (pause) But it’s almost like how sorry am I really? I know that enters into judging. The first time I walked in here and talked about this I was coaxed into masturbating on the table. This time it was out of my hands. It was in my control but – you know. I fear that I’m going to be lured is such an irresponsible word. [00:09:07]

THERAPIST: I think the fear is that you’re going to be put in a position where it’s really hard to say no because that’s what’s really happening, right? You could say no. You could flip over. You could leave, but it’s really hard once you’re that far down the path to do that, right? There is debate in the literature. There is not enough research to know whether or not there is really such a thing as a sex addiction or a pornography addiction. That realm really hasn’t been studied enough and some people say it’s like an addiction and other studies say it’s totally different when you look at the brain chemistry. Regardless, we don’t know, but when you’re in a scenario where – you said am I sorry enough to not do it again? You have to look at how strong are the urges? [00:09:59] Yes, I do think you do truly feel badly and, like you said, afterwards there is not a time that you felt lower other than Mexico. I don’t doubt how badly you feel, but I also don’t doubt that the urge is really, really strong to escape from what the feeling is just before. I think the reason you go into the massage parlor is that you feel really badly and you want to feel something else. Then when someone provides you an opportunity to feel better really quickly, soon, that’s really hard to say no to and it’s really hard to keep in mind that the good feeling is going to be short-lived. It’s very, very hard to keep that in mind in the moment.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) [00:11:13]

THERAPIST: How did you stop drinking? (pause)

CLIENT: How did I stop drinking? (chuckles) Guilt and shame, I guess, were working pretty hard.

THERAPIST: Did you continue to go to bars and order drinks and expect yourself not to drink them?

CLIENT: No. However I did purchase beer for guests and had it in the fridge for months without even a hint of interest in it. [00:12:04]

THERAPIST: So the interest went away?

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) I know what you’re getting at and I think the comparison to alcohol is pertinent.

THERAPIST: But it’s not perfect because of the fact that your interest in alcohol went away. Your interest in sex is not going to go away because you’re a human being. That’s partly why the addiction model is debatable.

CLIENT: I’m addicted to feeling better about myself (chuckles) and the means to satisfy that are variable – or I should say varied. [00:13:01] (pause) I don’t know. (sighs) (pause) I don’t know how I am unable to come up with ways or a way of thinking about things that I know are good for me as being the things to go to first.

THERAPIST: Did anybody know how badly you felt that day, before or after?

CLIENT: Which day?

THERAPIST: I don’t think you gave me a particular day, but the day that you drove by the three places.

CLIENT: This was yesterday. No. [00:14:02] (pause) Why do you ask?

THERAPIST: I wonder if you had called to somebody, talked to somebody, let them know what you were feeling before you tried to fix it yourself. What if you had invited somebody else to . . ?

CLIENT: Before I went to that one? (pause) Actually talked about how I’m feeling or . . ?

THERAPIST: Pieces of it or “I’m having a really bad day.”

CLIENT: The thing is I don’t think I was having a bad day. I don’t know. [00:15:03] I was keeping myself busy at home, doing laundry, really staying busy, and I can’t put my finger on what it is that is so dampening. (pause) Maybe it is the change in medication. I don’t know, but . . . (pause) [00:16:02]

THERAPIST: Do you feel like your mood has been worse since you’ve started decreasing?

CLIENT: No, my mood has been kind of highs and lows. For the first time, I think it was yesterday or the day before, where I actually felt like I could live the life I want to live. (pause) And as excited as I was, I don’t know . . . I don’t know. (pause) [00:17:01]

THERAPIST: What happened to that feeling?

CLIENT: It’s still there. It’s just (pause) . . . It just feels saddled with the things that aren’t a part of living [well] (ph?). (sighs) (long pause) [00:18:26]

THERAPIST: How does this fit into getting that letter finally out of your house and into dad’s mailbox? (pause)

CLIENT: Well, I thought that if I could get this thing off my chest it would be one less thing that I avoid doing. It’s not like this has taken four years because of careful analysis. [00:19:00] It’s been disinterest or avoidance or laziness.

THERAPIST: Not wanting to hurt dad.

CLIENT: There is that, too, but not wanting to hurt dad and not sure if it would actually help me.

THERAPIST: But it does sound like now at least one piece would be helpful. Sending it doesn’t allow you to reinforce that idea of you being someone who doesn’t finish things.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. (pause) [00:20:22] Part of it is just desperation, hoping that something can turn as a result. (long pause) [00:21:27]

THERAPIST: Where are you?

CLIENT: I’m looking at your chest. (pause)

THERAPIST: So how does that fit into ways you want your life to be? (pause) [00:22:00]

CLIENT: The instant gratification part is that I want to see your chest. That is difficult to reconcile (pause) with – I don’t know what – being satisfied with my life in such a way that I’m not prone to wander? [00:23:02]

THERAPIST: I want to be clear that I’m not shaming you, but I think what happens in here parallels what happens out there and the same ways of wanting to avoid what you’re feeling happen in here and happen out there.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) So if I’m understanding what you’re saying, if I could identify what I’m avoiding here it would help me live the life I want to live out there? [00:24:04]

THERAPIST: Yeah, because the life, the patterns that you have in here can’t be totally different than what happens out there.

CLIENT: No, I’m sure they’re not. (pause) Do you like the attention, though?

THERAPIST: I’m going to not answer. It’s not about me.

CLIENT: I assume you don’t but . . . (sniggers) (pause) [00:25:06] Yeah. At this point, I have a hard time trying to figure out what it is that I’m trying to avoid because I can’t figure it out when I’m driving around. (sighs) There is some sort of deficiency. Some needs are not being met.

THERAPIST: Well you really need to feel good about yourself.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: The need to feel emotionally and intimately connected with your wife. I just picked two things that we’ve talked about recently that feel like unmet needs. Those are both pretty near the top. [00:26:02] (pause)

CLIENT: What was the other thing? You said two things.

THERAPIST: Feeling good about yourself and feeling intimately and emotionally connected with your wife were the two that I was . . . (long pause) [00:27:11]

CLIENT: They’re kind of mystifying. (pause) I don’t know what sex is for. I don’t know what emotional purpose it serves. I understand the physical, but the emotional – intellectual, if there is one – is lost on me at this point. [00:28:17]

THERAPIST: You don’t know what it is for for you? For anyone? (pause)

CLIENT: I’ll speak for myself, but not being able to understand it myself also translates to other people.

THERAPIST: What were you taught about it? What stories did you hear about sex growing up?

CLIENT: (chuckles) I was sort of filled in by my siblings, my older brothers, and it wasn’t the most [ ] (inaudible at 00:29:03) and wholesome [ ] I think that others might have. In a way it was kind of raunchy, but to say “told” or “taught” would be a stretch. [00:29:33] (sighs)

THERAPIST: Exposed?

CLIENT: Perhaps. (scoffs) Yeah.

THERAPIST: So what did you make of what you were exposed to? What ideas did you . . ?

CLIENT: Sex was about just (pause) getting off and the beauty of sex never entered into it. [00:30:10] We may have talked about this, but have you seen that movie Don Juan or whatever?

THERAPIST: I have not seen the whole thing. (both chuckle)

CLIENT: Which part of it?

THERAPIST: I saw an interview about it so I know the premise, but I haven’t seen the film.

CLIENT: It’s a fascinating perspective on going from a one-night-stand kind of guy but who is also addicted to porn – somebody who finds actual meaning and depth with one person – who isn’t a real likely subject. [00:31:04] (pause) I just don’t know what . . .

THERAPIST: Is that what you’re hoping for for yourself?

CLIENT: I’m hoping for something in what it is currently. I don’t know how to approach it. Talking about it just seems so impractical, uninteresting. (sighs) (pause) [00:31:59]

THERAPIST: Why do you want it to be something different than what it is for you right now?

CLIENT: Right now it’s nothing. It’s often just routine and going through the motions.

THERAPIST: You’re talking about having sex with your wife?

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: But it doesn’t necessarily feel nothing or routine if you’re masturbating watching porn or if you go to one of these places. I think that we have to encompass all of that in what sex actually is for you and I think also the fantasies that you have. It’s interesting that when you think about sex, you’re thinking about intercourse with your wife and you leave off all these other ways that you express your sexual interest and appetite. [00:32:58] (pause)

CLIENT: Well, because I guess I had hoped that if sex with my wife were more fulfilling that an emotional connection with her would be more present and my tendency to seek attention or whatever it is – touch – elsewhere would be [ended] (ph?).

THERAPIST: Not likely the case, but it seems like you have to acknowledge that that other need and desire is there. If you can’t find a way to bridge that with your wife, then it’s going to continue to feel like you need to seek it out elsewhere. Somehow we have to sort of bridge those two together and I don’t know how they got so separate.

CLIENT: I don’t know (pause) when or how that happened and I don’t know (pause) . . . It’s been a long time. [00:34:58]

THERAPIST: The dichotomy of the excitement that you can experience elsewhere and the lack of emotion and interest that you have in what you consider sex with your wife, that dichotomy is really strong and interesting. It’s sort of like the Virgin Mary and the whore. How did it get so separate? It’s one person. What if you didn’t have to split things apart so much? (pause)

CLIENT: I don’t know. (pause) [00:36:08] I don’t know. Can you speak some more about that?

THERAPIST: The dichotomy?

CLIENT: About putting them back together. I don’t . . . (pause) I don’t know how to do that. I don’t know what that would look like. I don’t know how to be asking my wife to . . . (pause) [00:37:00]

THERAPIST: It’s the concept of just broadening the scope so that what feels appropriate or okay somehow gets expanded because if what you’re feeling, if what’s happening is completely unsatisfying – and maybe it’s not just in terms of rote behavior, but also just the ideas and concepts you hold of what sex with your marital partner is supposed to be. That’s unfulfilling to you and maybe partly that’s because it doesn’t match with what felt exciting as a kid growing up or what feels exciting now. If that’s split off, exciting sex is something that you can’t have with your wife, why in earth would you want to be limited in that way? But if there is a strong dichotomy of what feels – you can take religion out of it – the concept of there are girls you date and then there is the girl you marry, why would those be so different? [00:38:09] That’s setting yourself up to be miserable and bored. I think maybe it’s just part of that idea of being able to have a broader concept that brings together the exciting dating elicit phase with what actual married sex can feel like, too. (pause)

CLIENT: I don’t know. [00:39:02] I think I’m just as guilty as my wife is as far as not changing things up because when I’ve tried, it’s been rebuffed.

THERAPIST: Do you know why it’s been rebuffed?

CLIENT: Yeah, and (pause) I understand that. But I think for her I get the impression that being inside her wall should be enough and that’s what the breakdown is, I think.

THERAPIST: So you guys have different beliefs about what should feel satisfying?

CLIENT: Yeah. She has had – at least she always has had for me – and I don’t mean to say this as though she’s horrible because of this, that and the other thing; that’s not what I mean to say. But if that’s her way of thinking, that it should be just enough to be inside her, what am I missing?

THERAPIST: So are you saying that she’s right?

CLIENT: No. But if she is getting some sort of satisfaction, basic emotional connection out of that, how do I do that?

THERAPIST: You might not be the same.

CLIENT: I believe that.

THERAPIST: And that’s okay.

CLIENT: Yeah, I also believe that. (both chuckle) [00:40:59] But I don’t know how to even talk about it. Well, Jean, how do we make this so that it’s also exciting and satisfying for me because it’s not?

THERAPIST: I think you get to say that.

CLIENT: And stay married? (chuckles)

THERAPIST: We might need to finesse the delivery a little bit. What you’re basically saying is that you have a wish and an expectation that sex should be satisfying for both of you. I don’t think saying that is a divorce-able offense.

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: And your wish “I would like for our sex lives to be better for both of us” is a perfectly fine and admirable wish. Saying “it’s been completely unsatisfying for the past however-many years and I would like it to be different,” that’s going to be hard for her to work with. [00:42:05] But “I want you to know that it could be better for both of us; could we talk about some things we could try to have that happen?” I think the conversation includes not just tricks, necessarily in the bedroom, but there may be things that could be changed that have nothing to do with actual intercourse that would make it feel more varied, make it feel more interesting and exciting, make you actually feel like she’s more invested in making sure that you are actually enjoying the experience, which I think is a big piece of why you’re not. It’s because you don’t feel like she is invested in that. You feel like she thinks that you should just get okay with it.

CLIENT: When you say things that don’t – give me an example of that. [00:43:01]

THERAPIST: Being able to talk about intimacy together.

CLIENT: Oh. (chuckles) Okay.(laughs)

THERAPIST: It could be that but it could also be setting the stage earlier. Talking to each other about things that feel erotic or sexual during the day, not necessarily getting to bed at night. Like you said, you’re exhausted at night, but that’s when she feels most interested, and saying like “hey, you want sex?” There may be better ways of getting you both on the same page or just bringing sexuality into other parts of your day or experience together. You’ve talked about watching porn. That might be something. I don’t know if she’s open to doing that with you. There may be other ways.

CLIENT: (sniggers) I’m not going to ask her that, but I take your point. (pause) [00:44:11] This is all sitting right next to the act, the belief that I have that she is using sex to feel good about herself. You’re absolutely right. I think these things are important to cultivate, but I think any mention of sex or dissatisfaction must be couched in language that is very careful so as not to inflame that belief of hers. [00:45:00]

THERAPIST: Focusing on the positive, wanting it to be better rather than saying “it’s not good.” And maybe also having some conversations about what do you want sex to be in your marriage. You don’t really want it to be only a tool for her to feel good about herself.

CLIENT: Okay. I’m not asking you about you, but what do other people, what are other ideas about what sex is?

THERAPIST: I think you could probably get ideas from reading books, watching movies. What is it sold as?

CLIENT: It’s sold as something that I think is completely fraudulent. I don’t necessarily believe in much of the narratives that sex gets passed off as. I believe that there are possibilities within those perhaps, but I don’t believe in any of the popular ideas about sex. [00:46:12]

THERAPIST: That’s okay. I think where the conversation starts is that the two of you need to decide what you want it to be. It’s not any one thing. There aren’t any answers to your question. Is it the Disney princess gets saved by the prince and they go off happily ever after? We don’t actually see any sex, but we know that they are going to be safe forever because they fell in love and we go on to imagine what happens next. That may not be realistic, but you’re allowed to hold ideas about it. I think what’s really important is you figuring out what do you believe it can be? What do you want it to be, whether it can be that or not? And what does she believe? You don’t necessarily have to have the same ideas, but you guys need to know what each other’s ideas are, since part of your belief is that – and you’ve told me this before – you’re only supposed to be having sex with her. [00:47:11] So it makes it important for you guys to be okay with what are the expectations that you both have or what are the hopes of what it could mean? Is it okay for it to be kind of raunchy and just about getting off? Do you want it to be about that sometimes but something else another time? Is it okay with her that that’s your belief? These are all things that actually would behoove you to be able to talk about. A nauseating concept, it looks like.

CLIENT: (sniggers) Yeah. It is, just because I think her ideas of sex are so – I don’t want to say Puritanical – but very traditional. [00:48:11] I’m not even sure where to plug into that or how to broaden it. (sighs)

THERAPIST: Maybe a good place to start is to ask if she would be okay with maybe broadening her view, just talking about it.

CLIENT: (sniggers) And if she says no?

THERAPIST: Well if she’s not open to talking about stuff, that’s probably a couple’s therapy issue.

CLIENT: All right.

THERAPIST: Because you can’t change things without at least being able to talk about what are the hesitancies? What are the fears? What are the limits? What’s making it scary to even consider other things? We do need to stop for today.

CLIENT: All right. (pause)

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