TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: This card.

CLIENT: Oh, wow. Did you have a template or did it just -

THERAPIST: Yes. I used Pan (ph) to -

CLIENT: That’s shape drawing. Good for you.

THERAPIST: It’s crazy enough.

CLIENT: Yes, well, I’ve seen some crazy designs. Anyway, well, birthday weekend good. [inaudible at 00:00:30] but anyway I’m just kind of beat. I don’t know if I told you this but last Thursday I get an e-mail from my landlord saying I just wanted to know if you were going to renew your lease starting August 1st. August 1st? I thought it was September 1st. Oh shit. I’ve got to find a place for August 1st. So the last [00:01:06]

THERAPIST: Because you’re not staying?

CLIENT: I don’t the landlord’s, he’s just not trustworthy and he doesn’t care what the place is like. There are wooden thatch windows that you close and lock them and they kind of rattle, we paid way too much in utilities, and it just kind of stinks I think. It’s like one of those things that you’re afraid that you’d get used to it because you’re just there so much.

But, anyway, so I saw a few different places and made an obligation yesterday and hopefully will find out today. And then yesterday, I knew it was coming, yesterday my landlord says I’ve got a showing tomorrow at 9:30. I said all right. I said oh God, okay fine, cleaning all day because this is the time when people are going to call him and say so how are the ex-tenants because he doesn’t really kind of know our property fully. [00:02:21]

Anyway, so I’m just a little bit beat. All the sudden ups and downs of rental. And I also found out Wednesday that I didn’t get that job.

THERAPIST: Oh you finally heard.

CLIENT: Well it’s just ridiculous because after I left here on Friday, I sent an e-mail saying hey I just wanted to check in; don’t mean to be a pest blah, blah, blah. Well I just kind of got fed up on Tuesday and just called and say hey, and he said yes, I still don’t have an answer for you yet. I should hope to imminently. It’s taking longer than we well I get an e-mail next day saying strong pool of candidates made this a difficult decision blah, blah, blah. [00:03:06]

But as is probably normal for people when they’re rejected they start to rationalize well it wasn’t going to be a good fit for me anyway, I didn’t really want it; I knew I could do it but I wasn’t terribly dying to do the job. And so, yes, that’s how I feel.

THERAPIST: I think you felt that way while waiting. I mean it was -

CLIENT: I did, I did.

THERAPIST: It wouldn’t have been horrible to get it but you also said it wasn’t the only job you’d ever want.

CLIENT: Yes, it really wasn’t. And being a part of a big company again like that I just, there’s always a lot of ego. And I can deal with that; I’ve dealt with that in the past remarkably well. But it’s ego on both sides of the camera and, a microphone in this case. So actually I found this other job. Actually Julie forwarded it to me, but it’s for the Amherst graduate school well it’s an interdisciplinary center called The Center For Developing Children, Child Development something like that. Ready for that interview, what do you call it again? And they need a multi-media producer who can do just about everything. And although I’m not strong in some things, I know how to do them but I can do most of them and most of them really, really well. [00:04:56]

So I applied for that and it’s a really interesting effort. It’s drawing from faculty from all across the campus to talk about or inform and raise awareness about kids who are undergoing distress, that’s not the right word they use. But they have interactive videos and PowerPoints and the like, animation time, one with all about the negligence effect, the ignoring effect what it does to a child both good and bad. So they have these videos of it. And science, how the brain responds to experiments in a child, all things like that. [00:06:06]

So it looks really interesting. And I mean I can’t say oh I’ve always been interested in child development, see my resume? There’s nothing on there. But that said I -

THERAPIST: Yes, you’ve got the skills that they need for their cause. The content doesn’t necessarily have to be perfect.

CLIENT: Exactly. And honestly I think it’d probably be a good place to learn a wider variety of skills about how to do they want to do mini documentaries and I do too and I want to do larger ones. So I might not get an interview but at the same time -

THERAPIST: You might. [00:07:04]

CLIENT: You can’t win the lottery unless you play. You can’t win the lottery even if you do play.

THERAPIST: Somebody does.

CLIENT: Somebody does.

THERAPIST: Not a very you probably have a better shot at the job.

CLIENT: Yes, exactly. So that’s relative thinking, well at least I’m not playing the lottery. But, so it’s been kind of an up and down week and yes, I’m just here. Actually I just had a massage because I’ve been going to the gym two or three times a week for a while yet. And I’ve been doing interval running and I hate running but I know it’s effective. But I think it’s actually rehab for my back. My lower back has been an issue; I’m not sitting properly. I’m thinking of carrying a little pillow in my bag like some old man, where’s my back pillow. [00:08:11]

Anyway there was a reputable massage place down the street and yes it feels a lot better but I also had to get up and get prepped because I have a little showing. That’s as much as I can tell you.

THERAPIST: What would you like to focus on?

CLIENT: Well actually in the past week I’ve been to two massages, one today and one on Tuesday. But prior to that there have been a number of impulses to go to one and it was an exercise. I’m listening to my wiser self, my more, my healthier self and saying all sorts of reasons. But there are times when it’s kind of a foregone conclusion; I’m just going to go. And I don’t have really good answers as far as what are the circumstances that I’m in but the moment I say I’m going to do this [00:10:13]

THERAPIST: Of the times that you had the impulse how many times was it a foregone conclusion and how many times was it a discussion?

CLIENT: Once. But the, I don’t know. I can resist most of the paper cuts but it’s the final one that’s the, what does me in. And then the other one I went to near to me was a new place and I they didn’t touch me, they gave me oil to do it myself and whatever. That, I feel not good afterward. [00:11:30]

Today I waited until the masseuse left the room and then I did it. I feel a little bit better about that, not a lot. But would I feel that way if I were at home? Without any enticement, enticement’s too strong a word -

THERAPIST: When you went today did you, was it in your mind that that was going to be the result or?

CLIENT: No, no. I was and because I went to there I knew that was not part of me. And I mean I know I’m under stress right now but I don’t know. I’m just not exactly clear as to how I mean today I won’t even attempt to analyze because I think it’s I didn’t go there expecting to do it, I didn’t use the system so that won’t do to do it. But earlier in the week I just, I don’t know, I just sometimes that inner voice isn’t strong enough especially if for example I’ve listened to that and heeded the advice, the inner voice for eight times. And then I think well this is my reward for not going all those times or something like that. [00:14:00]

THERAPIST: What is the inner voice saying?

CLIENT: You’re just going to feel bad about this. You’re just going to, it’s going to cost more money than you really should be, you want to spend, you really don’t need this, why do you want to do this? And I don’t really have good answers. At least when I ignore it I don’t have good answers.

THERAPIST: Does it feel like it’s related to what feels missing in your relationship with your wife or does it feel like it’s totally separate?

CLIENT: That’s a good question. I don’t actually know. I think today for example it was just a release valve. I was kind of tapped out and the idea of trying to embrace the inevitability of uncertainty is something that I used to talk about quite a bit but right now I can’t deal with uncertainty very well. It’s been -

THERAPIST: Well it’s a lot of it. [00:15:38]

CLIENT: challenging lately and changing and moving and trying to get a job and all these things.

THERAPIST: Yes, there are two very big factors in life that are uncertain right now and that’s a lot of uncertainty to sit with.

CLIENT: Yes, yes.

THERAPIST: What are the knowns? What feels certain for you?

CLIENT: Well that’s a good question because I was actually trying to convince myself that I don’t need to worry about this; it’s going to be fine. I said to Julie a couple days ago look there are brand new developments down in parts of Cheshire that have plenty of availability, they’ve got a pool, they’ve got all this stuff. If we find ourselves in mid-July looking for a place, that’s always a possibility. [00:16:43]

But that’s more resigning myself to kind of this least desirable option, different from trusting that something, the right thing will come along. I don’t think those places are the right thing. We do have options. So it’s a question of how much faith do I have in things just being okay? And that’s been something that I’ve been struggling with. And it’s kind of like when you have a lot of time on your hands, not necessarily idle but just time that’s not devoted to work for example, you do a lot of time to wonder what the hell you’re doing and what you quote unquote should be doing. [00:17:47]

And I understand that suggesting to myself, suggesting or insisting to myself, that there’s something I should be doing isn’t helpful. I mean I think that’s one of those things you taught me. It’s important to have goals, it’s important to have resolve, it’s important to have follow-through on the things that are important to me. But as far as I should be doing this or I should be doing that, those things are not helpful. And so I think I am doing the things I need to do right now to a degree. Now that I know I don’t have that job, well I’ve since applied for another one. [00:18:35]

THERAPIST: Yes. Feels like the responsible thing to do.

CLIENT: Yes, yes. And I even made the decision the night before I knew for sure. Yes, so the, I don’t know where I was going, just the uncertainty and not beating myself up for not knowing what to do. I mean I guess it seems like this is one of those life skills that is called life skills because it’s going to help me, I mean it’s necessary throughout my life. [00:19:14]

THERAPIST: You practice it all the time.

CLIENT: Yes. And the things that I can control, not making myself feel worse than I may already feel or not making myself feel bad when I’m feeling okay or good even, and trying to sow the habits and activities that do make me feel good. I’m not sure how coherent I am right now because I am just like I already had two coffees.

But to get back to your earlier question, is this related to what’s missing in my life with Julie, perhaps it is but it’s also we’re both kind of scrambling. And I’ll go to bed at 10:00 and she’ll work until 4:00 in the morning because she’s got, she’s trying her hardest to provide the best product she can to this person that she’s doing work for. And he’ll say I need this by tomorrow morning so she’ll provide it by tomorrow morning even though it’s an unreasonable request. [00:20:54]

I can’t tell her that, I’m sorry I’m just going to take my jacket off, I’m not going to tell her that she shouldn’t do those things because who am I to say. But, so she’ll sleep until noon, I’ll be up at 6:00. And so we are kind of -

THERAPIST: You’re totally missing each other.

CLIENT: Yes. And needs that we have seem to be subsumed by these, I don’t know, these circumstances.

THERAPIST: How long has it been like that? Missing each other time-wise? [00:21:43]

CLIENT: Oh months. And I’ve told her about it. I said look if this is going to be important to us, and I’m not saying that I told her like this is on her, but when she’s complained that we don’t have any intimacy or whatever I said look if we’re going to want it we need to make a point of making a place for it because right now -

THERAPIST: You need to be in the same place at the same time awake. [00:22:09]

CLIENT: Awake, and I’m dead to the world at 10:00 pm because my dog woke me up at 6:00 and I just kind of okay I’m awake, and she’s all awake at 10:00 pm because she slept until noon. So it doesn’t bode well for trying to have a kind of healthy, sexual relationship. But there’s still the, I really think there is a strong a major part of this is the shame I feel for what I did to her.

THERAPIST: Yes, because you said this time pattern thing has been going on for months but I think the mismatch in your sexual relationship has been going on for much longer than that.

CLIENT: Yes, yes, yes. No it’s certainly, that’s what’s more you know it’s funny because last night I wanted to initiate something but by the time I put an effort into it I was falling asleep. It was just not great timing. Maybe that had a lot to do with where I went today. But that was not the intention when I went there. [00:23:35]

So yes, I still have that brochure that you gave me; I have not contacted them probably because it just seems like right now I’m going to be out of town for two weeks and it’s just a lot of flux.

THERAPIST: Yes. Have you talked to her about it or is that something you would want to initiate on your own first?

CLIENT: Well I mean I told her that I wanted to go to do some sort of counseling on this and she’s fine with that. I don’t know if she’s seen the brochure on my desk; I hope I didn’t leave it out [inaudible at 00:24:10].

THERAPIST: Kind of backward.

CLIENT: Yes, kind of backward. Yes, well anyway. So, yes, I need to -

THERAPIST: There doesn’t need to be any shame in it.

CLIENT: No. Maybe I might take down the number, sell a house, who knows?

THERAPIST: Provide a service.

CLIENT: Yes, exactly. So I want to have that conversation and I want to have it when we’re both not on deadline and those kind of things, when my dog hasn’t eaten an entire dead bird in one gulp, vomited it out, ate it again. Go to Angel, that’s the -

THERAPIST: Pet care kid.

CLIENT: One hundred fifty dollars for him to say well if she throws up again it probably means she’s [inaudible at 00:25:12]; this was last Saturday. So we go home. She throws it up again. Julie grabs her up before she can feast on it.

THERAPIST: If not, thrice thrown up dead bird.

CLIENT: Yes, the gift that keeps on giving. And sorry this is nasty but everything that she ate is now out so we didn’t have a problem. But it’s just my God that dog. The rents that we could be paying if we didn’t have a dog. Oh and the places were so nice. God it’s just anyway, so the dog. And that’s all, that’s all stress, that’s not my thing. [00:26:02]

THERAPIST: This is a common thing, this bird eating?

CLIENT: She eats anything. I mean, and that was like ooh bonus. But she’ll eat leaves. She’s got arthritis and her back hips are weak so she takes Prednisone. Prednisone makes her hungry. And I feel bad because we can’t feed her more because it will put on weight -

THERAPIST: Right and that’s bad for the hips.

CLIENT: and make problems for the arthritis. So she tries to eat anything, paint chips, just bizarre stuff; gum, chewed up gum.

THERAPIST: [Laughing] I’m sorry.

CLIENT: Grab it out of her mouth. So, yes, that’s, she’s just a dumb ass. But, so yes it’s just been a week of ups and downs.

THERAPIST: Yes and a lot of sort of unusual challenges. [00:27:05]

CLIENT: Yes, but what do they say, it builds character right? [Laughs.]

THERAPIST: In the long run, yes. It also builds stress.

CLIENT: Can I build character next week? Yes, exactly. So anyway I’m just -

THERAPIST: Well I’m glad she’s okay. I mean you’re sort of laughing about it but I, pets are important and it’s stressful when you worry about them.

CLIENT: Yes but the timing wasn’t lost on me. Hmm maybe I should schedule some of those other apartments if she were to not come through it all. I mean I kid but she’s 13 years old. It’s not like she’s -

THERAPIST: She’s had a good long life.

CLIENT: Yes, but still she’s just a little nut. She’s crazy for popcorn still. Anyway, she’s, yes so, but thanks. She’s a blessing and a curse. So that’s been that. I don’t know what I’m going to hear about this apartment, I’m not sure when I’m going to hear about this job if ever. So at the same time I have other things, other ideas that I’ve been carrying around with me for a couple years now, a piece that I want to do for Marketplace program on Islamic finance. So it’s those things that I feel like oh you know what, if you’re going to do this now’s the time. [00:28:56]

THERAPIST: Yes because I think with the uncertainty pieces, the question to ask yourself is have I done what I can do. And then when that piece is over it’s time to focus on being in the present because what’s going to happen, you put your application in for the apartment and then you just wait; there’s nothing else you can do until you hear back from them. [00:29:21]

And same thing really with the job; you do a good application, you put it in, you wait an appropriate amount of time. There’s nothing to do in between the time when you submit that and maybe do a follow up phone call. And so the best anxiety management for those types of uncertainty is to focus on what you can do in the moment. And that’s turning back to, yes, your own projects or the gym or -

CLIENT: Yes, it’s funny because the I think I mentioned the cigar rolling video that I just finished it’s now up. I can finally I mean I started that on a whim. I didn’t really have any I better do this because, but the timing was perfect because it’s now live and now I can put it on my CV that says I did this, which is exactly what they want to do. So it’s things like that that if I want to position myself [00:30:15]

THERAPIST: Yes, you didn’t know why you were doing it but. It’s interesting because I know last time we talked a lot about stories and your interest in stories. And the child development thing, so that’s not you’ve never talked about being a child development person; however they’re telling stories about what impacts development. You’ve always been interested in stories.

CLIENT: And I’ve got a history of child development like everybody.

THERAPIST: Everybody does develop.

CLIENT: So yes. No, that’s true.

THERAPIST: And that’s sort of a way to understand it for yourself. Why would you want this particular job? Well the media piece is obviously really interesting to you; that’s something you’ve been involved in in different ways. And here’s a group that’s trying to tell a story about something, kid development, in multiple different ways or from different perspectives. That’s right up your alley. [00:31:12]

CLIENT: Exactly. Yes, and there are a number of things about it that are attractive beyond just the content of the [inaudible at 00:31:25], the nature of work.

THERAPIST: Yes I think that the match up of having a number of different skills and the expertise and the opportunity to learn. And people want people who are going to be interested in staying.

CLIENT: Even I would. No, I would and I think, again I think those everyday skills are skills, or no I shouldn’t say, those skills that’ll be -

THERAPIST: They’re not everyday skills.

CLIENT: No, no but I mean those skills that I would be sharpening every day on this job are things that I want to be able to use for my own personal interest. So yes it’s I mean I don’t want to get myself all jazzed about it but I do think it’s actually a lot more, easier to say in hindsight since I’ve been rejected, but I think it’s more in line with what I want to do because it’s almost just kind of assembling stuff that’s been already done, already, stories that have been told. And now (ph) I’m telling a larger story by making a greatest hits of the week for this thing. [00:32:43]

So I think I always say as I look across my history things happen, the right things happened and I can look at that that way or I can say well it just happened because my clemency. But [phone rings] hang on one second, I’m sorry. Hi Ashley. Good I’m just in an appointment right now. Are you okay? Yes, I’ll call you in about half an hour is that all right? Okay, good, I got that number. Okay, talk to you soon. Bye. That’s my friend 85-year-old mother who’s slowing down. Anyway, she’s out of town and her daughter’s out of town and I told her I’d be there if need be. [00:33:53]

Anyway yes, so the, I do feel like this position arising and my applying for it makes more sense to me than the other one did. But at the same time it’s hard to know if you’re trying to just rationalize something that’s a foregone, something you can’t control.

THERAPIST: Well I think making a narrative of what’s happened and creating possibilities of what might happen is an important part of how you make meaning of your life. There’s always a narrative to be made and there isn’t one [00:34:40]

CLIENT: Yes, but why not make a positive one as opposed to a negative one?

THERAPIST: Right because there and I think that’s just as valid because there isn’t necessarily one right way to have perceived something. And so it’s much more adaptive to make a narrative that is positive because there’s no value in saying well all these things just happened or all these things that happened were wrong and so I’m going to be miserable. That doesn’t help you or anybody else. [00:35:09]

CLIENT: Yes, and that sort of thing doesn’t I mean I think at one time I would not have sent this but I do think it’s not dishonest either. I might say in the past well it might be negative but it’s honest, it’s truthful.

THERAPIST: How do you know it’s any more truthful than something else?

CLIENT: I don’t think I do anymore. But truth doesn’t have to hurt.

THERAPIST: Right. I think looking at how we shape the narrative of what’s happened and where we want to go next with it, positioning yourself to be able to enjoy your life you can still see things like oh I might have done that differently and learn from it but creating a narrative that’s useful and adaptive. [00:36:05]

CLIENT: Yes and what’s the point of not doing that? I mean, and I’m saying that to myself really. Why would I want to choose any other option than that? And it’s were you going to say something?

THERAPIST: No, I was going to say when there’s a choice between choosing joy and health and choosing pain, when it’s a choice there’s no sense in choosing pain for yourself.

CLIENT: Yes, but when I was the parallel to that is now those, are those moments when I’m saying to myself I’m going to go to a massage because that’s where I’m going. And although I’m choosing pain, those moments when I I think what I want to try is to interrupt those foregone conclusions with something that is, maybe that’s music, maybe that’s I don’t know what. But it’s certainly not going to the gym. That’s not joy. [00:37:29]

THERAPIST: That’s not joyful for you. And there may be times when that’s the choice you make because it feels like it benefits a longer-term joy, like being healthy. But I do think that the idea of looking at what you’re choosing based on how it lines up with what you want for yourself both in the moment and longer term, and making choices that feel good for you, in part that’s sometimes about how your choices affect somebody else.

And I know with going to a massage parlor that doesn’t feel as respectable you don’t, you know that Julie would be upset; that’s a person who’s important to you not to hurt. And so that’s it’s not the idea of kind of choosing what feels, choosing a narrative of what’s happened that feels good also takes into account those relationships and how it’s affecting other people. [00:38:28]

CLIENT: Yes, yes. And I think, I mean as you were saying that I was thinking about okay I don’t want to hurt her or do something that would hurt her. And yet I think it’s because I don’t feel, although she doesn’t act like she hasn’t forgiven me, I don’t feel like what I’m doing is any different or worse than what I’ve I think that’s my rationalization that I’ve hurt her once, these things are within that umbrella I guess of -

THERAPIST: And it feels like a lesser betrayal. [00:39:10]

CLIENT: Lesser betrayal and it’s like I’m already tainted; this isn’t going to make me any worse.

THERAPIST: As you say that now, does that feel true?

CLIENT: No, no. But I think that’s my mode of thinking when I’m -

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: So I guess it is more of a -

THERAPIST: I’ve already eaten five cookies; I might as well have the rest of the package type of thing.

CLIENT: Exactly, exactly. Yes, and what’s the harm? So I guess it does relate to that more than to my, to what’s not happening with Julie than I identified earlier. [00:40:01]

THERAPIST: Yes. You said she doesn’t act like she hasn’t forgiven you but you certainly act like you haven’t forgiven you.

CLIENT: True, but yes I guess I don’t know what the difference would be. How, got to bring this up to the very end right? I don’t know what that looks like. I mean not only in theory but in practice. I mean the letter I wrote to my dad mentioned that but it wasn’t yes, maybe it depends on how I’m feeling about my this is like the endpoint, I know the sky is blue but maybe it’s the fact that I’m not feeling good about myself, I’m feeling tainted, I’m feeling unredeemable, irredeemable, whatever, and those five cookies are gone. I can’t change that and so bring it on, bring on the rest of them. [00:41:42]

And if I’m feeling positive about myself and my prospects and where I’m headed and the state of my marriage, all of those things together, then I think enough. But when I’ve been extensively rejected, earlier in the week before I actually knew I was rejected, not finding a place to live, all those things, I guess that does have an impact. I don’t know but those things are going to happen whether I, I mean in the future so how do I tell myself you’re better than this? [00:42:37]

THERAPIST: Yes and how do you maintain a view of yourself that defines who you are by the choices that you make day to day rather than defining yourself by what feels like some of your worst choices?

CLIENT: Yes, yes. And -

THERAPIST: And I think when you’re feeling badly, you sort of do the well I’ve already defined myself by this mistake I made years ago so it doesn’t matter what I do now, the pattern that I’m setting. [00:43:13]

CLIENT: Yes, I guess what I don’t know how to connect though is the excitement that I feel towards that and well I’m just playing the role that I’ve laid out for myself. And I know we’ve discussed that, I know we discussed the thrill of whatever, the unknown and the -

THERAPIST: Yes of something both illicit and physiological response that regardless of the setting you can’t completely divorce yourself from your body.

CLIENT: Yes, yes. I need to remind myself the pulling inwards is too [inaudible at 00:44:26] my symmetry of the other information. Good enough.

THERAPIST: Smart enough.

CLIENT: Smart enough, strong enough and people like me. I’m not sure how Fred would consider these days but listen to Comcast. Anyway [00:44:47]

THERAPIST: And he was saying it many years ago.

CLIENT: Yes, exactly. Many more people did. I still like him. But anyway, okay so I guess something I want to think about for the next week is what would the effect be of having a day job that I mean having a day job would the effect be on my ability to kind of regulate how I feel about myself? I mean right now I have just swallows of time that I can’t categorize very well. I can’t say well I’m doing this because this is going to lead into that, I’m doing that because that, that’s not part of it. And I’m not even sure that having a day job is going to make that any easier. But at least you don’t have such large swaths of unscheduled time. [00:45:54]

THERAPIST: Well it places less of a burden on you, on the having to decide. Having to decide what you’re going to focus your time on, what you’re going to do with your time, whether you’re going to spend time doing deep introspection or whether you’re going to get your car washed. The burden of having to decide all the time is both a burden and a benefit. When you give people lots of abilities to make choices there’s a degree to which having the ability to make choices is really healthy and improves people’s lives. [00:46:30]

But there’s also a time, there’s a limit there. When you give too many people too many choices it’s a burden. And I think you’re kind of experiencing that. So having a day job takes away a lot of your choices. You don’t have to think about what time you’re going to get up in the morning, what you’re going to do; it’s set. You’re going to go, you’re going to go spend a bunch of time doing this -

CLIENT: Having the effect of having kids, right? You don’t have, you want choices? You don’t get choices any more. Yes, well you’re absolutely right and I think that is what’s troubling. I think I heard some program on the radio, innovation of or whatever it’s called about the effect of having too many choices and the stress involved.

THERAPIST: Yes people get stressed out, anxious, create anxiety disorders.

CLIENT: Yes, yes. All right well I’ve got cash today so -

THERAPIST: What did Yogi say it’s just as good as money? [00:47:31]

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