TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: …can offer [inaudible at 00:00:01].

CLIENT: No, no, nor our clients willingness to co-conspire. Yes, no, it’s beautiful out there.

THERAPIST: So how are you?

CLIENT: I’m all right; I’m just a little tired. I’m having coffee with an old professor at 2:00 so I skipped my late morning, my occasionally morning coffee, the coffee I usually bring here so I’m dragging a little bit. But we’ve got an apartment now.

THERAPIST: Oh congratulations. You don’t look happy. [00:01:07]

CLIENT: No, I’m incredibly happy I’m just stunned that it turned into almost putting in an offer on a house. We have a dog, which creates additional problems. So last Friday, I’m not sure, we put an offer on Thursday and we got rejected Friday.

THERAPIST: Okay so you were waiting to hear back from an apartment when I saw you last.

CLIENT: Yes, so that went with a twist between with a dog or without a dog. And so it was just easier -

THERAPIST: Easier to choose the non-dog.

CLIENT: Yes. This place was great but I don’t know. I’m surprised the toll it had taken on me that I hadn’t realized because after that [inaudible at 00:02:15] at least yesterday, but after they officially accepted our application and we had jumped through several hoops because the new owners were to be living downstairs, they had just bought the place, they’re not used to being landlords, so on so forth. So I said okay, fine. I think the oddest clearance that they ran by us was they want to have chickens in the backyard; is that okay, chickens? Absolutely. Whatever they want; goats, I don’t care, horses. [00:02:50]

THERAPIST: The owners were asking you if it was okay?

CLIENT: Yes were we okay with the, with them having chickens.

THERAPIST: The owners really don’t have to ask, do they?

CLIENT: No I don’t suppose they do but -

THERAPIST: But it’s nice that they did.

CLIENT: Yes, exactly.

THERAPIST: They want to set a more collaborative relationship.

CLIENT: Exactly, exactly. [00:03:07]

THERAPIST: And your dog not to eat the chickens.

CLIENT: You, I picked up that. They have a dog too but I think, yes.

THERAPIST: But your dog’s penchant for birds might be more [inaudible at 00:03:22]. [Laughing]

CLIENT: [Laughing] Don’t rankle the birds. I’m finally getting over that. Yes, so but it was a relief that our [inaudible at 00:03:34] application was accepted and that was all.

THERAPIST: Yes, knowing that you’re going to have a place to live that doesn’t feel like a consolation prize, a back-up plan.

CLIENT: Exactly. And I mean for the business it’s the sixth time we’ve moved in four years or it will be, and I’m just hopeful that it is the ultimate or the penultimate move right now or not for a while. But anyway it did, I mean I was looking all the time, Zillow on my phone, on my iPad, I was just deleting those apps with such glean on Wednesday. And so it’s just a relief and now it’s just a manner of finding a job. Did you coordinate your skirt with that? [00:04:36]

THERAPIST: [Laughing] I didn’t, no I did not.

CLIENT: Oh come on, it looks great.

THERAPIST: That’s the consistence of our cut (ph) regardless of the outfit.

CLIENT: That’s okay. Just coincidence of today. So, yes I leave on Monday, 6:30 in the morning; I will be gone for two weeks. I’m looking forward to it.

THERAPIST: Are you sure? [00:05:10]

CLIENT: Yes I was trying to make sure.

THERAPIST: No, because a number of sort of expressions just went through your face so -

CLIENT: Check, check, check, all good. Yes, I think it was just -

THERAPIST: What would make it a good trip?

CLIENT: Lowered expectations. [Laughs] I think, I don’t know, I think the seeing my dad not until the very end, third of July, third, fourth, fifth, even the sixth, is probably best because I think this will give me a chance to kind of be with my siblings for a bit first. Some of them don’t know what’s going on with me, what the status is, Dad and me. So I think it would be helpful to [00:06:29]

THERAPIST: Do you feel like you need to keep track of who knows what?

CLIENT: Well, yes I guess I do and that’s not by design just by chance that certain people know. I supposed it’s who I talk to. I don’t know if I necessarily want to carve out a corner and say hey before this weekend you should know. I don’t think there’s anything to my, there’s nothing like momentous or above the event that we’re going to have a big showdown or anything but others had just simply known that there’s a certain amount of friction there, my dad not one of them but others. So, yes. [00:07:47]

But it’ll be good, it’ll be good. I’m just glad to have the apartment behind us because one of the options was July 15th move. Had we returned on the 26th we would’ve had nine days to find a place and pack and move.

THERAPIST: When are you moving? [00:08:18]

CLIENT: End of the month, end of July.

THERAPIST: So that gives you a lot more time. And you don’t have to worry about the finding a place but it also gives you plenty of time to pack up and find a [new verse] (ph).

CLIENT: Exactly and as far as I’m concerned I’m flying out Monday. Julie’s not flying out until the second. She’s flying into Seattle where I’ll pick her up and then go on. But as far as I’m concerned she’s packing. [Laughing.]

THERAPIST: [Laughing] Does she know that?

CLIENT: I don’t know but I think she’d be, I think she would agree that that would be fair because I’ve found every single place we’ve ever lived by myself. And she’s spent some hours upon hours packing one day. It’s got to be four or eight times putting a bin full of Styrofoam peanuts packed and then taped. We’re going 0.7 miles away so [00:09:24]

THERAPIST: She has a system.

CLIENT: She’s got a system. So I just hope she uses her time wisely but hey it’s her time. But yes, so there is time and I don’t know, the whole job thing has been kind of weighing on me a bit. It didn’t used to be this hard; if I wanted work I just had it. I didn’t really have to decide that I wanted work. And now I’m not sure if it’s being in a new environment, a metropolitan area where I only know a handful of people. [00:10:20]

THERAPIST: You felt like you were better networked in other places?

CLIENT: Oh Portland I was the Mayor. No, but I knew a lot of people and I helped other people so it wasn’t just like a self-serving network positioning. But I honestly do feel like this current job that I applied to, the Center for the Developing Child, whatever it’s called I think that’s right or whatever it’s called.

THERAPIST: But you’re going to know before you went to that interview? [00:11:01]

CLIENT: Yes, yes I still have a few days I hope. I was just realizing I didn’t sleep very well last night. But on the other hand I woke up this morning kind of down about not working or whatever. I said to myself you’re just going to have to make the work for yourself because why would, you know. Maybe this is a good thing; maybe you’re not entering into a situation where you’re just going to use that as an excuse to not do the things that you would find challenging.

So as it turns out I’m meeting with the author of this book whose class I took a few years ago. It was a lot of finance. And so I talked to him and it’s interesting because the recent ISIS explosion of wealth that they have now, the richest terrorists ever and he’s kind of an expert of global war, financial war on terror. [00:12:38]

Anyway, so I hope to talk to him about Islamic finance more just this afternoon and hopefully pick something sometime over the next few weeks on something finance. I’m sure he can find for me something. And -

THERAPIST: Yes, being selective.

CLIENT: Yes, and I’m going to go to this ballroom competition tonight and tomorrow to just kind of go about the local touring (ph) people, people who are local who are characters, whether they know it or not. So that’s how I am. How are you? [00:13:19]

THERAPIST: I’m fine. That’s not the purpose of today’s session though.

CLIENT: No of course not. Actually I did think of you this morning though because I was on Facebook and somebody had posted this thing. I guess George Takei of Star Trek fame posted on his page this Lego Walk of Fire. And somebody set it up in this store, this strip of Legos that you had to walk across with your bare feet and if you made it all the way across -

THERAPIST: That’s worse than fire.

CLIENT: Yes, yes. So I don’t historically complain about Legos. Anyway -

THERAPIST: Yes, my basement is that walk of flame.

CLIENT: Is that right? That’s right. So anyway, so that’s kind of where I am and I’m just, I’m tired and here and yes. [00:14:32]

THERAPIST: One of the things that we had talked about ages ago, you were going on a trip to Vermont with a friend, maybe Montana, someplace north. And it was trying to be present when you were there with other people. And I’m wondering if that’s something to just kind of be conscious of as you head out for this trip to spend with your siblings and people out there.

CLIENT: Out there. It hurts less. Yes, it’s a good point and in some ways I’m set up to be more present because the apartment thing’s off my mind, I’ve communicated to people that I’m working, I’ve worked with in the past, that I’m going to be gone for a couple of weeks so the expectations are managed. So yes I mean I guess the good part about it is, especially the good parts, is that I’m not going to have any [inaudible at 00:15:45]. I was planning on at one time to go there driving from here all the way up, up there and all the way back, coming back. Now I’m flying. [00:15:52]

THERAPIST: You can skip that part.

CLIENT: Yes and it’s, I don’t have any regret over it. I guess, I mean I feel a little bit bad about people who we’ve told we’re coming back for a long time, oh yes July, July, and now, no. But I think not having that hanging over my head is sort of a relief. Again it sets up the possibility and the probability that I couldn’t be more present. [00:16:41]

Trying to figure out because one of this is around music, performance, playing with my brother and my friend up in Nebraska. A lot of this before I go on these things there’s a lot of anxiety about okay well I haven’t picked up the saxophone in over a year or something like that and I’m going to be bringing this thing, or whatever. And I think there’s something about, well the purpose of getting together to play music is, it’s scheduled, it’s recurring, the same wheel. And so obviously there’s some joy [00:17:29]

THERAPIST: What is the purpose? Oh okay, you’re getting to it. Starting with the scheduled thing, it didn’t seem like the purpose.

CLIENT: Scheduling isn’t the right word but it’s, there’s been more than one and it’s so obviously there’s some enjoyment -

THERAPIST: There’s some significance mutually.

CLIENT: Yes, yes. But I think in the past I put a lot of pressure on the event as being this culmination of all this hard work. And sometimes I found that I’m the only one who put in any hard work. So there’s a bit of frustration there and so to try to be present, I guess, to determine what about the time together that is enjoyable. [00:18:18]

THERAPIST: Yes, so it’s not necessarily putting pressure on it to be sort of a performance piece -

CLIENT: Yes, yes or even a -

THERAPIST: where you demonstrate your increased mastery.

CLIENT: Yes, like a recital or something. Yes, it’s two full days of just doing music and other things.

THERAPIST: Yes, a shared experience.

CLIENT: Yes, yes. So -

THERAPIST: And if you can stay, and I think experiencing something is very much the point of being present. Not to be out here evaluating how everyone’s doing and what it even sounds like but to be experiencing it. [00:19:05]

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: We’re here, doing this thing together.

CLIENT: I’m not sure how that’s going to go but I’m going to try. I mean because I think part of the, part of how I listen to music or contribute or participate is real time analysis. But I think the real time analysis is an analysis and critique and judgment of my own contribution per inspection. And so and I think in the weeks leading up to these things I do try to prepare so that I am not, so that I’m enjoying myself and not saying well God if I would’ve just picked this up once a week for the past three weeks I would’ve been able to find G. [00:20:18]

So I mean I guess there is some proaction in that so that I can but it’s kind of like well if I hadn’t been able to do that how would I have enjoyed it, would I have enjoyed it? Would I have enjoyed it more had I practiced more? Would I have enjoyed it less if I had practiced more and no one else practiced at all because it’s that too. [00:21:00]

THERAPIST: What do you like about playing with them?

CLIENT: I’m not entirely sure because I think it depends on my own level of proficiency. But I think it’s I guess not even the music at all because I mean I’m not bragging but I can play guitar better than any of my people who I’m going to be with. Yet I choose not to play guitar because everyone wants to play guitar. So I’m putting myself in a position where I’m, I don’t mean to sound like I’m so altruistic but I am challenging myself by giving them an opportunity to play guitar. When you go to a foreign country and they want to speak English, you speak English even though you’d like to practice whatever. [00:22:16]

So I guess the idea that this people, mostly brothers, can get together around something and that the only critique if there is one is from inside of me.

THERAPIST: How come you don’t take turns with who plays what instrument?

CLIENT: Well we do but if there’s an opportunity to play something else that’s not guitar well then I’ll do that because it’s just guitar playing is just so, I don’t know. Guitar playing is like the white male. It’s everywhere and you really can’t get away from it. It’s just kind of this ubiquitous thing that people choose to do, which more often than not they choose to do it as oppose to they choose to, no that’s not true. It’s something that gives them pleasure. [00:23:49]

Playing guitar, sure it gives me pleasure, but I think singing maybe gives me more pleasure or trying to play an instrument that I’m not very good at.

THERAPIST: You sort of like the challenge of being able to see improvement or set goals for yourself to improve. [00:24:09]

CLIENT: Yes, yes. Is this the most boring session ever?

THERAPIST: Does it feel that way to you?

CLIENT: No it just, it seems very, well I could be talking to a friend about this.

THERAPIST: So then we’re not talking about the right thing.

CLIENT: Well no we are but I don’t think I actually could talk to a friend about this because no one would -

THERAPIST: Nobody would ask the questions.

CLIENT: Well ask the questions and no one would be so patient as to listen to my answers. But I guess the, part of this that seems relevant to what’s going on with me right now is something that I read yesterday and maybe you’ve seen it. But it’s this thing on the Internet, I saw it on Facebook, it’s this “What Not To Do In the First Hour of Your day.” And one is check e-mail and one is answer phone calls whatever because they put you in this reactive mode and you should be doing things like planning out your day and trying to figure out what you want to get accomplished; things that are more helpful. [00:25:34]

THERAPIST: Oops. [Laughs.]

CLIENT: There you go, see?

THERAPIST: Guess what I do as I make my children breakfast?

CLIENT: Yes, well no I’m still in bed and I think oh crap; now I’ve got to respond to this. And I understand the goal and how to set oneself up for a day maybe at the end of which you can say hey I got done what I wanted to do or I got more done than I wanted to do and or what have you. And the you know you can tell me things 800 times but the moment I read about it then oh I should do that or wait that sounds really familiar but only now it doesn’t. [00:26:30]

Breaking things down into manageable action steps. I’m sure you’ve said that many times to me but now it’s okay, choosing a verb that actually will embody the task. So I didn’t do that this morning but that’s okay.

THERAPIST: Do you feel like it derailed you in some way?

CLIENT: In some ways yes but in other ways I know in theory what I need to do when I get home this afternoon in order to feel like today was a productive day. And that’s just specific things that I just know I have to do them. [00:27:21]

THERAPIST: And there’s tons of rules out there about what’s the best way to do stuff and I think really what’s useful is figuring out which rules work for you and when to apply them because you can’t follow all the rules, right?

CLIENT: And that’s, I think that’s part of it also is that this set made sense but I would modify it by the night before deciding what’s important to me the next day because the next day I’m in a crappy mood in the morning and I think well I don’t want to do that; I’m not going to do that, they don’t care. They’re not waiting for this. There’s no deadline; I’m going to do something else.

So to have a sense that you do have a plan before you even wake up that was important to you yesterday after a great day when you were feeling good. And so those things I think I guess the reason I dove into this was that with music I’ve been picking up the saxophone and now that my neighbors upstairs have moved out I’m going to pick it up more often. And that even just playing for 20 minutes shows progress and it’s building up endurance for embrasure (ph). And that in and of itself, despite what things I wanted to get done professionally or stuff that I’ve committed myself to, that in and of itself is something that makes me feel good. And it might not have any relevance in my work life or whatever but it is something that makes me feel good. [00:29:12]

THERAPIST: Which has relevance in all parts of your life. Feeling good is -

CLIENT: Yes, and when I say it doesn’t have any relevance I guess it doesn’t, it’s not leading me to find a job I mean or whatever. But I guess the other part about this is just not worrying and understanding that I’m doing the things that I want to do. I’m choosing to do the things I want to do. Why I’m doing them isn’t entirely clear on all fronts. Some of them I’m sure. Some of them is just a general curiosity. [00:30:10]

Would I do these things any more faithfully or vigorously if I knew where they were headed? I don’t know. I think when you know and you have to prepare it becomes drudgery because you know what’s happening or what you know.

THERAPIST: And you’re no longer doing it because of that internal drive.

CLIENT: Yes, exactly. So when you know why you’re doing something it becomes routine, drudgery and you’re not doing it out of a consistent curiosity. Perhaps you are but for me -

THERAPIST: For you it gets replaced.

CLIENT: It gets, yes.

THERAPIST: Once you put that external sort of expectation on it, that internal drive or curiosity kind of gets overshadowed.

CLIENT: Yes it gets overshadowed and it gets strangled because that curiosity can never meet the expectation, yes. So why we do things I don’t know but for a long time and as you know I’ve been questioning the intent behind some stuff that I do or the value of it or whatever. And to think that one could develop a career out of choosing -

THERAPIST: Following your interests. [00:31:50]

CLIENT: things that you enjoy is a crazy idea but I don’t see why it’s not worth trying.

THERAPIST: It’s not hurting anyone.

CLIENT: Or at least it’s worth not killing because I think that’s been the other tendency is well what’s this going to lead to? It’s not worth doing.

THERAPIST: Right and squashing it. [00:32:21]

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: It’s interesting sort of where you took the conversation because one of the things I’d asked about sort of why you played what you do and why I guess how you decide that partly out of the interest of what the dynamic was like and sort of how that decision making process goes. And I think you sort of answered that in another way in thinking about what makes it feel more of an internal drive, what you get pleasure out of. [00:33:01]

CLIENT: Yes, I guess that there’s two parts of it. One is what is it that I, kind of oral pain do I want to inflict on my [laughs] brothers?

THERAPIST: [Laughs] You’re trying to get back at them for ?

CLIENT: Years of just abuse. But I guess the other part is they have only certain ways in which they can participate.

THERAPIST: You have more flexibility.

CLIENT: I do and that was the original intent really, so that it wasn’t an army of guitars. And, so yes it’s almost, well it’s two facets of the same challenge and I don’t know gratuity or I don’t know what to call it. [00:34:26]

THERAPIST: Well and you’re looking at both the needs of the group and your own needs, your own desires and balancing it. And I think it’s interesting how you can place your ability to do that in different places, I mean as you think about projects that you’ve picked up for people. Well, you know filming isn’t what you’re most comfortable with but you can do it and be willing to sort of test out a new skill, work on a skill, combine that with other skills that you feel more comfortable with to meet the demands of a project. It’s just [00:35:04]

CLIENT: Yes, that’s true.

THERAPIST: Your ability to be flexible, try things, work on things that might not be your forte.

CLIENT: I’ll have to think about that one because you do raise a good point and I don’t, I guess the way I’ve looked at it in the past has been it’s kind of been a win-win; they get something and I get something.

THERAPIST: Yes, and it is. But that’s I think your willingness to stretch your comfort zone or go beyond the place where you feel most comfortable is a real strength or asset or skill but not everyone’s willing to do that. Some people say I’m really good at this one particular thing and that’s what I’m going to do. You’re clearly not saying that in lots of different places. I mean today we kind of talked about it with regard to music because of your upcoming trip but if I think back a couple sessions ago I’m thinking about that thing you filmed that you said I don’t know, okay I’ve done camera work once before. But you were willing to do it. You were willing to say yes I’m going to try it because you need someone. And your flexibility with doing different kinds of work projects and having interests in lots of different places. You’re willing to step outside the boundary. [00:36:29]

CLIENT: Yes I guess there is something to that. And I guess the thing I tend, the place I go when thinking about that is my last big job I had in the Twin Cities and what it meant to be part of a team and what it meant to rise to the occasion; that to me was an important skill. Not just a tendency but an actual skill especially in a live broadcast, working on A Prairie Home Companion. I mean you had to do what you had to do in order to get the thing on the air. [00:37:26]

And that was not always fun but in the end I think the people who are around you are also your support. That they’re not going to let you fail. And so when you do go out on a limb they are holding your hand, allowing you the space to learn, allowing you the space to learn what you do differently. I’ll have to think about that one. I mean I’m not how much I think it’s actually there’s something to it. [00:38:17]

I’m also not sure how I follow that up. Do I embrace those things and then have that become something that actually is part of my skill set? I don’t know. If that is the case, how do I acknowledge that and is the bar set further out just naturally or is it something that I have to continue doing if that’s my nature?

THERAPIST: Can you just see?

CLIENT: I don’t know.

THERAPIST: It might not have to be an active choice of how you follow it up but just sort of noticing, not pushing it necessarily one direction or another but allowing it to [00:39:22]

CLIENT: Well in allowing it to see, and I guess what I mean by part of that is in what areas have I done that and have been a miserable failure and I said no way am I doing that again?

THERAPIST: That’s one of the things about pushing boundaries is that sometimes it is a miserable failure and you have to pull back a little bit. And other times you realize oh we can move the boundary and it’s okay.

CLIENT: Yes, and is the boundary ever placed in dangerous territories based on my mood? Is going to the massage one of those ways that I’m -

THERAPIST: One of those ways that you’re flexible.

CLIENT: Yes, for better or for worse. And -

THERAPIST: Yes. I think any trait can be helpful or not helpful and figuring out how and when. It’s like The Force, it can be used for good or evil and you have to figure out and carefully hone how you use it. It’s a powerful thing. And I mean a lot of the things that we pathologize in another way, right, obsessive-compulsive tendencies; in some ways it’s a pathology, in other ways it’s a fabulous skill of organization and allows people to be very successful. [00:40:43]

In itself the desire to be regimented or and sort of repetitive about things isn’t problematic. You put it in certain contexts it gets in your way; put it in another context -

CLIENT: It’s awesome.

THERAPIST: and it’s great. So I think that’s, flexibility means the same thing. If the boundaries are too loose, you can get yourself into some positions that feel uncomfortable and are detrimental. If they’re too tight, you’re denying yourself certain experiences and denying other people the ability to benefit from something that you may have done. [00:41:24]

CLIENT: Yes. I guess that last part just stuck in my head. Allowing other people to benefit from something I have done.

THERAPIST: What’s sticky about it?

CLIENT: Perhaps because I can’t remember what you said just before that. [Laughter] Sorry, I was taking it all in I’m sure. [00:42:10]

THERAPIST: I guess playback mode. If you, what did I say just before that? Doing something that may have been harmful to others sort of playing both sides?

CLIENT: Oh yes, yes, yes, yes. And I guess, yes. It’s as if the flexibility married with self-care and those two together can be good for people around me.

THERAPIST: Absolutely. I mean even thinking about this trip coming up. Your flexibility is benefiting your brothers because they’re getting to play the thing they feel more comfortable with and they’re getting to experience a richer ensemble of instruments because it’s not going to be the brigade of guitars. So your flexibility is benefiting them. You talk about the massage parlor; the flexibility of those boundaries can be detrimental to you, your wife. [00:43:21]

CLIENT: Yes, and I think, I think when that flexibility is I think there’s the why not question. Why not? Why not go shoot video for someone who needs help? What’s the worst that can happen? Why not go get a massage? You’re feeling like you need some whatever. And the same question seems as pertinent to me in either situation. And I guess when I think about this in terms of self-care and taking care of myself and things like that, the consequences; I can handle the consequences of something that’s a professional venture. Can I handle the consequences of something that could be harmful to my marriage? I don’t think so. I don’t think so. Am I reasoned enough or dedicated enough to my self-care to [00:44:58]

THERAPIST: To answer that why not. Why not do it because it doesn’t feel good and because the consequences are too extreme. They’re too harsh.

CLIENT: And the risk is not worth the potential for damage whereas for something else the risk it’s safe. And I guess that’s, I guess what I would, and I know we’ve got to finish soon, what I’m wondering is if the risk when it’s entered into without anyone else’s knowledge if that’s any kind of clue as to the possible damage? When I go play saxophone or a [inaudible at 00:45:52] or something there’s no, there’s no secrecy about it. When I go into a video thing [00:45:59]

THERAPIST: Ah, if something has to be secret -

CLIENT: Does it ?

THERAPIST: should you be doing it?

CLIENT: Yes, yes. And I don’t know.

THERAPIST: It’s an important lesson. [00:46:07]

CLIENT: It’s an important thing to think about I guess because I don’t tell anybody, except you. But -

THERAPIST: Well I think that’s, in learning sort of the nuances of words, one of the things that we try to teach kids about is the difference between something that’s supposed to private and something that’s supposed to be secret. And the idea of trying to teach those two things as separate things is that it’s okay to have privacy. Privacy is how you learn what your personal boundaries are and it’s why when you move from daycare to school age you stop changing in front of kids of the opposite sex because that’s private.

At the same time that’s not secret. There’s nothing that’s shameful about your body, but we do keep certain things private. But secrets are things that are kind of hurtful or shameful and if we have to keep something secret that’s probably a sign that maybe it’s a bad choice. So this is when we try to teach kids about if another kid is telling you to do something and telling you not to tell your parents or not to tell the teacher, that’s a secret; that’s not private. And that’s a sign that that’s probably not a safe thing for you or a safe thing for the other person. [00:47:26]

A good friend might tell you something in privacy and that’s an okay thing. It’s not that they have to keep it secret from the teacher but maybe it’s private what they are asking for for their birthday or what, how many they got wrong on a test. I think as we get older these two concepts is just, is this something that I would keep a secret or is it something that is just private? It can help in kind of ascertaining is this good for me? Things that are good self-care probably don’t have to be secret. Things that are not good self-care, you might feel like that’s a secret; that’s something I only will tell my therapist. [00:48:08]

CLIENT: Yes. Yes, that’s a -

THERAPIST: Taking things back to basic is always a way to make it easier.

CLIENT: Yes, yes. Yes, absolutely. Well, it’s effective at least for me.

THERAPIST: Yes, I think I mean I use those examples because I do think it helps. These things we struggle with as adults can be distilled down. The issues get more complicated and the words get fancier but I think the concepts really get distilled down to the same stuff that we are always trying to learn at those various developmental stages. That stuff doesn’t go away; we just add on to it.

CLIENT: Great.

THERAPIST: We also get more freedoms and stuff. There’s some concepts, right?

CLIENT: I’ve got to decide who to share my private things with. Okay, well -

THERAPIST: You want to stop there and I’ll see you the 11th?

CLIENT: Yes. [00:49:11]

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