TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:
BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:
CLIENT: It’s a couple weeks at least right?
THERAPIST: Yes.
CLIENT: Yes, well I survived the two-week road trip and I’ve got to say I was really ready to be home by the time I got to my dad’s birthday party. Not because of anything about the birthday party but it’s just I’ve been in seven different beds in ten days and I was just ready to go home.
THERAPIST: Pretty weary.
CLIENT: Yes, so the it was interesting. I mean it was fine in terms of my dad and me. The I think one of the things I noticed was the anxiety from all parts of the family manifested itself in all sorts of different ways. My nephew, he was just, he’s a teenager but he was just so I guess annoying to my sister as teenagers can be. But I could see that he’s a very shy boy and so for [00:01:37]
THERAPIST: Your sister his mom or is she another aunt?
CLIENT: My sister, yes his mom. And I think everybody was experiencing anxiety in different ways. I know I was and Julie was and even my sister-in-law. My one sister-in-law works at a, what she calls an abortion clinic. And my other sister-in-law is on the opposite side of the spectrum and that was just igniting fireworks and God only knows what. But it was really amazing that it didn’t come to fists or deaths. [00:02:27]
So there was just some basic anxiety and then there was the whole music thing was just a train wreck. We were supposed to play music, have a sing-a-long kind of thing and that was just horrible.
THERAPIST: What derailed it?
CLIENT: Lack of audience participation [laughing] and probably unclear expectations. I think part of the problem before it happened, the planning and all that, we were not sure what we were doing. I mean we knew we had to play songs but it was okay are people going to sing to these, are people going to want to sing, are we like a Karaoke machine, what is the deal? And I just felt like we were in a fishbowl and I thought this was just weird. [00:03:40]
So that was disappointing because it just ended on this kind of odd turn of events. The neighbor two doors down started lighting off all these fireworks and we said okay, I guess we’re done. But anyway it was disappointing. I felt just like this is just stupid; we didn’t prepare. This is so I guess it does raise a question about what my expectations were and did they get enough information? Were we all on the same page? All of these things, and I’m okay [00:04:28]
THERAPIST: How did your brothers react to it not going the way you had planned?
CLIENT: Similarly. I don’t think they were as upset; I don’t think they had prepared as much. But I mean I’m okay with it as a lesson for understanding what my expectations were and what, how informed they were, how perhaps impossible to meet they may have been. Even to meet you halfway seems like it wasn’t possible, and whatever. So I understand that my anxiety going into it was based on expectations that were not going to be met so I was kind of setting myself up for a collapse. [00:05:40]
So the same nephew was supposed to play a trombone solo on a song that he had practiced. I had told him what it was and after that he said no way, I’m not getting up there. He’s just really shy and I don’t know. I think people think we were up there because we feel comfortable being up there and that’s not necessarily the case. And so if we’re going out on a limb they should come out with us. [00:06:17]
Anyway, that is over, thank God. And the weekend before that was playing music with my brothers and my friend Edward in Northern Nebraska. That was a lot of fun; more fun than I expected. But -
THERAPIST: What made it more fun than you expected?
CLIENT: I think I played better than I expected [laughing] to be honest. And it was a new setting; none of us had been there before. My niece was there for the first time; she’s 22 or 23. And yes I had a realization since getting back about the way I go about playing music is very different than the way my friend Edward, who I used to be in a band, bands with, college, high school and so on, and the way my brothers approach the music. And it’s just different. [00:07:50]
And I guess for me to impose my approach on them or to expect them to rise to the occasion is not very reasonable or fun for that matter if that’s not what they want to do. And so it occurred to me that if I want to play at a higher level, the people around me, I think I need to find those people who are willing and are able to do that. [00:08:16]
THERAPIST: Who have it as a same end goal.
CLIENT: Yes, exactly, because I don’t think my brother Steve has any I think he just likes to but, and that’s fine but -
THERAPIST: What world of music that, in your family growing up was ?
CLIENT: None of us. Well I mean we all played band instruments in junior high but no, I was the only one who played in any consistent time span, junior high, high school. No but I mean for everyone else it was no. But it has kind of brought us, some of us together. [00:09:11]
THERAPIST: Yes it’s interesting how it does seem to have touched quite a number of you.
CLIENT: Yes well and -
THERAPIST: And it’s getting passed down to the next generation it sounds like.
CLIENT: Yes, yes. It’s going to be great. I just need somebody to start playing trumpet and we’ll have a horn section. [Laughter] Just waiting. Hey maybe, yes London should start playing trumpet. But yes and it’s a way, I mean as I envision these things down the road, I think in order for these kids to be inspired and very interested (ph) it’s going to have to be something that’s a little more than playing some Woody Guthrie song, no ill respect. Something that they can see the value of what they’re doing at school in the real world. [00:10:12]
THERAPIST: Yes, and have it be fun.
CLIENT: Well that’s just it. I mean and that’s, I mean that’s really the key I guess and if I, I guess just done it, put my approach on them. But we’re playing Sousa marches and whatever else, songs from the Music Man at school whatever they’re doing. That’s one part of music and if through this they can explore other things that are not so traditional or even fixed perhaps it could be more fun. [00:11:16]
So, but I think probably the biggest thing, because I was kind of embarrassed about that music playing with my family I just felt like I played horribly, it cleared everyone, it was just a train wreck, all these things, it’s actually spurred me to pick up my [inaudible at 00:11:46] for an hour every day since and I don’t know where that’s going to go. It might go nowhere but it’s also part of an attitude that I’m trying to develop with a lot of things that I’m doing.
I don’t know where it’s going but I want to do it more. And I might run into roadblocks, I might not have a clear idea as far as if there’s some sort of output from it, I know it’s something we’ve talked about in the past as far as producing something. But I’m trying to do the same thing with this story on Islamic finance mortgages that I picked up again yesterday, and the whole ballroom dance competition thing that I want to do, which I picked up again yesterday as well. [00:12:49]
And I think when I last saw you I went to ballroom dance competition and actually that was a Friday that was, well whatever. It was a Friday that I last saw you; it was that night and Saturday night. And funny thing was there was judge there who I know from Indianapolis; she flew in to be a judge at this thing so I was able to talk to her on Sunday about this thing. And I tossed around an idea with her about doing just a short piece on the Paso Doble. You know what that is? It’s a crazy, crazy dance that you probably know a little bit of this. It’s part of this international Latin five-dance grouping, which is Cha Cha, Samba, Jive, Rumba, and Paso Doble. But it just seems like the odd man out; it’s just like this weird thing. You don’t social dance Paso Doble; it’s just this theatrical thing [00:13:50]
THERAPIST: Very dramatic.
CLIENT: Yes, it’s very dramatic and it’s very bizarre and -
THERAPIST: It’s the bold one?
CLIENT: Yes and it’s very funny to watch, for me. I think it’s hilarious because you see the expressions on these people’s faces they’re just so dramatic and comically so I think in some ways. But anyway, just as far as how did this dance become part of this set, what’s the history, what is it tied to? Is it some sort of Flamenco influence, is it, what is it and how do people approach it because it is so different from all the other dances they do. The moves aren’t necessarily transferable to the other dances, things like that. [00:14:33]
So anyway, I don’t know where I’m going with that but I’m just going to keep pushing it forward knowing that I’m interested in it. And that, and we talked about this to an extent, but it’s really becoming more and more present to me that having an endgame is not necessarily all that important when you’re starting out.
THERAPIST: Right. Letting yourself just sort of follow a task and see where it goes. [00:15:07]
CLIENT: Yes. I mean I do know for example the [inaudible at 00:15:08], having some experience with music, what things are possible and likely for the outcome. But something like this I don’t know but I hope at the, because I get -
THERAPIST: The hope is you’ll learn about it, that there’ll be a valuable story there.
CLIENT: Yes, exactly.
THERAPIST: But you can’t necessarily know what the story is until you pursue it.
CLIENT: Exactly, exactly and to not sit there on my hands and say well, this is absurd for all these reasons that I could probably come up with. So anyway -
THERAPIST: I mean it seems like it’s something that’s caught your interest. This other person didn’t think you were totally crazy for pursuing it and coming up with, kind of sounds like fostering your ideas a little bit -
CLIENT: That’s better; her last name is Foster by the way. [Laughs]
THERAPIST: [Laughing] I know that would’ve been a great pun. And, yes, there’s it does seem it’s a good opportunity. The world is actually getting a little more clued into dance from some of the popular shows now. So there’s, like you say Paso Doble, and people actually might know because they’ve either watched Dancing With the Stars, or So You Think You Can Dance; it’s becoming a little bit, it’s getting more mainstream. So there’s a bigger audience for wanting to understand it. [00:16:34]
CLIENT: Absolutely and I think because it is so, because it is such, because it is a unique dance that’s no way, you don’t see it brought out at weddings, things like that, but it’s just it has a story behind it that’s different from Cha Cha or Samba, whatever. Anyway, so I followed up with some of the people at that competition; I called them yesterday. One of them had a website that had believe it or not Paso Doble class last night, Thursday nights, starting back in June. I called him up can I come by and someone actually cancelled on him. There was no surprise, lack of interest. [00:17:19]
But I talked to the guy and he was one of the competitors I wanted to talk to. And there’s some kids I want to talk to, there are some people in their older years that I want to talk to and this guy said I can tape him and his program at some point. So yes I mean it’s -
THERAPIST: Cool, you’re motivated.
CLIENT: Well I am and I’m also trying to keep the expectations really low. I mean the original idea was this big documentary. I’ve never done those; why would I think and that’s I think often the problem is that I think big -
THERAPIST: And you don’t know how to break it down, the next step.
CLIENT: Don’t know how to break it down and I cower away from it in fear because it’s so big. So yes, it’s -
THERAPIST: So you don’t have to give up that idea of big documentary someday -
CLIENT: Yes, exactly.
THERAPIST: but it doesn’t have to be all that or nothing at all. It could be maybe I’ll do that someday and along the way here’s this smaller chunk that you can pursue and see what happens with it. [00:18:24]
CLIENT: And I can -
THERAPIST: Maybe it gets folded into something later.
CLIENT: Yes, absolutely. And I mean I think some of the things that, some of the challenges I see that are a little inhibited by are the talking to people. How do I get them to talk about something? If I’m going to be doing this with a 90-minute documentary, whatever, that is going to be something I’m going to have to do a lot. Okay how do I learn that by doing a shorter piece? Things that don’t have to be so scary. So, yes I mean there’s just a lot of this breaking these things down into less scary chunks that I’m not used to doing. You know that. [00:19:09]
THERAPIST: Right. Letting yourself just have a conversation about dance and see where it goes.
CLIENT: Well and the other thing about it is not having to worry if I’m doing it right because the more I look at people doing things like journalism for example, the more I say to myself well I don’t know how they’re doing it and I could certainly try to find someone to shadow for a day, but how would I do it if I were told, if I were asked how would you do this and would I come up with something that is better than the way someone else has been trained to do it or how someone else would train me to do it? And I think kind of the idea of making it up as you go along as long as you’re making it up from thought and not just -
THERAPIST: Yes, and you don’t necessarily need to find a way that’s better. You just need to find a way that works. And there may be lots of ways that work. [00:20:14]
CLIENT: And waiting to learn those ways that work for someone else might be a waste of time. So I think finding out what works for me is what I’m trying to do on a number of fronts.
THERAPIST: Yes I hear sort of like a theme of permission.
CLIENT: Yes absolutely.
THERAPIST: Self-permission to do things.
CLIENT: Yes and to I feel like I’m eating lard and chocolate for the past two weeks or something to that effect. I go to the gym yesterday and I thought God I hate this. I hate this, I hate this, I hate this. [Laughs] And you know I’m still trying to figure that one out but I know that I’m not going to wake up and say well I don’t need to go to the gym anymore because I’m fit. And [00:21:11]
THERAPIST: But I wonder if you can find a way to be active that you hate less.
CLIENT: I know. You said that before and I don’t know if there is a way.
THERAPIST: Have you tried Paso Doble dances?
CLIENT: Oh God. [Laughter] I don’t have the bag, the spine for that I think. Besides I don’t think I could keep a straight face. I’m sure the laughter would be aerobic. But I don’t know what it’s going to be. Maybe there’s something there.
THERAPIST: Well you’ve had this struggle with the gym for a long time because you don’t like it.
CLIENT: I don’t like it. I realize it’s important; I go anyway. And I think, I was thinking about this yesterday actually when what is it, you said something about [pause] oh we talked about real work being something that you enjoy, like the real work of whatever. That’s what I’ve been labeling as real work and if you enjoy it then it can’t be work. And it’s almost like the reason I feel good when I leave the gym is because I’ve done this awful work that I hate doing. [00:22:33]
THERAPIST: It actually counts as exercise because you hated it.
CLIENT: Exactly. If it were fun, I don’t know, roller blading’s not exercising. I don’t really think it’s related but you know. But that idea and -
THERAPIST: I mean I do think that exercise is important both for your physical health, it’s really good for it’s a great treatment for depression and anxiety so it can serve so many purposes for you. It doesn’t have to be horrible or in a gym in order to count as exercise. It’s really just moving your body so if one day you can find a way [00:23:15]
CLIENT: Well I’ve got this theory that if I was carrying less weight it wouldn’t be as difficult or hated because I just, I don’t know. But [laughs] getting to that point is going to require more of something I hate. Anyway, it’s what it is and I don’t it’s going to be one of those things that I will have to look into and see what other things I can do that are not as -
THERAPIST: Well what did you like to play as a kid?
CLIENT: Baseball. [Laughing] I played softball on the weekend. Oh my God I hurt myself so bad.
THERAPIST: [Laughs] I’m sorry to laugh; I shouldn’t laugh.
CLIENT: No you should, it’s ridiculous; it’s ridiculous. And it wasn’t so badly but I had this swollen ankle for the past five days that I’m trying to nurse back. But I certainly didn’t stretch out and warm up like I should have. You only think of those things when family gets together. [00:24:21]
THERAPIST: That’s the problem with sort of the weekend warrior. You do something totally different one day of the week or once in a while.
CLIENT: Yes and you’re just shot on Monday.
THERAPIST: The companies that have this team kickball, the moral boosters for companies. Yes, half your company’s going to be injured tomorrow. [Laughter] This is something they’ve never done or haven’t done since fifth grade.
CLIENT: The ropes courses where it’s like oh God. But yes, so anyway yes I mean I guess I just there are some things I like doing but I mean it’s a matter of finding people to do them with. It’s kind of like music but [00:25:19]
THERAPIST: Yes, things that require a group are definitely harder. But this time of the year is also a good time to sort of explore renting a canoe or a kayak and kayaking down the Charles; less likely to injure yourself. It is active; it may be fun.
CLIENT: [Laughing] Yes, it could be fun. Yes, no it’s true, it’s true and yes. I mean, yes, I just, now that this weekend is behind me there’s more opportunity I know. Moving in three weeks and all that is going to take a certain amount of preparation but anyway it’s something I’ll have to continue to look at. But the idea of actually scheduling something like tennis or something else on those days when I go to the gym just seems like wow, can I really do that? Then it’ll be fun. [00:26:34]
THERAPIST: Yes you could do that. And it would count.
CLIENT: It would count. No, it’s crazy talk but I’ll see what I can do. So I get back on Monday and, or no Sunday, and being so sore from softball I went down to get a massage at that place that I went, I go to that’s on the up and up. And felt great. I had so much anxiety though, kind of pent up, that when I left there I was looking for another place to go. And I went to another place I’ve never been. And in the end it was what I was hoping to stumble upon and have happen however that’s [00:27:47]
I was not really happy with myself but at the same time there was a lot of clarity afterward, like what were the circumstances of this. I mean I tried to talk myself out of it all the way but -
THERAPIST: What stopped you from letting yourself actually talk yourself out of it? [00:28:24]
CLIENT: Just wanting a release. Just thinking that this is -
THERAPIST: That that was the only way to get it.
CLIENT: Yes, yes. I thought about going out and playing music, I thought about going to the gym, I thought about going out to where Charles is. And I kind of was thinking about the alcoholic who is just going to go and have a drink and I was just of a single mind that that’s what I was going to do. [00:29:28]
And it’s just interesting to me how much clarity there is before in terms of the resolve and how much clarity there is after but it’s a different, it’s a completely different kind of clarity. I mean one is just focused on one thing; after it’s like okay let me intellectualize this, let me be able to talk about this and mull (ph) over things why. Why the reasons, how did this happen? Well this, that and the other thing. And on the one hand it’s I have to have this; on the other hand, you know. [00:30:30]
THERAPIST: Or what’s the assumption by that? I mean you said you sort of wanted the release; you were feeling anxious. What would happen if you didn’t have it?
CLIENT: I don’t know. I think I don’t know the answer to that but I do think that part of the reason I was feeling anxious and maybe even most of the reason is because I’m coming back from being gone for two weeks and I don’t really have a job that I’m returning to. And there’s so it’s okay what kind of patchwork am I going to do today to make me feel like I’m making progress towards some sort of by-play. And I’m not saying oh poor me, I don’t have a job; this is inevitable. But it’s more like back to the reality of the day to day existence where I need to make it happen and [00:31:43]
THERAPIST: That’s a lot of pressure.
CLIENT: Making it happen, yes, it is a lot of pressure. And it’s just whether it’s appropriate to apply it or not I don’t know but people were asking me all weekend so what is it you do now and I answer well I do a little of this, a little of that. So since then I’ve done a bit of work; I expect projects every day. And when there is that balance then going to the gym and being able to write those things, I feel whole, I feel human, I feel like a good person, like the person that I want to develop more. [00:32:42]
But the if I could look at my patchwork of things that I’m trying to advance as something that another person working a 9:00 to 5:00 job with some bank might be really envious of as opposed to something that just kind of like why am I doing this, what, is this going anywhere, that attitude towards each of these things which is let’s push this forward as if it’s fun because frankly things that I’m interested in should be fun. And if I’m not interested in them, why am I doing them? [00:33:43]
So instead of looking at this assemblage as kind of burden that might not lead anywhere why not look at it as something that’s more of an exploration? But your question about if I don’t get this release, what? At that point I wasn’t really thinking about it on that level. I was praying. I was saying if the next stoplight is red I’ll know I should turn around or something, thinking of things like that. I won’t push it. If there are hurdles in the way I won’t do it. Those didn’t, those didn’t stop me. [00:34:40]
But I wasn’t thinking about what if. I was thinking, I guess I was thinking I don’t have a lot going for me and this is going to make me feel better. This is going to -
THERAPIST: Did it make you feel better? [00:35:00]
CLIENT: No. It never does. But that’s what I tell myself. But on another level and I was thinking about this earlier today is what connection is there between the fact that I go to these Asian massage places and my first sexual experience was with my Korean sister? The element of what could happen and it’s the same thing to me, same significance. And so that excitement that this is, that come on in, this is okay. It was a secret then; it’s a secret now. [00:36:03]
THERAPIST: That is a lot of parallels.
CLIENT: I don’t know what it is about it though because I didn’t do this before I came back from France.
THERAPIST: Well and you didn’t seek it out. Right, I mean it just sort of, right? I mean the first time it was a surprise.
CLIENT: Yes, it was a Groupon. [Laughs] Damn those Groupons. No, it was and so I don’t know if this particular vice has more resonance because of the similarities.
THERAPIST: Well I think, I mean you certainly didn’t go seeking it out; I don’t think it was planned. However the response to after that first experience being to repeat it, to go back. And this sort of mixed relationship you have with it where in some ways it feels like it’s a good thing, something you want, and then some ways it’s really something you don’t want, don’t want to want. [00:37:19]
CLIENT: And apparently don’t want. Yes so I don’t understand how to regard it by looking at the span of my life and between drinking, oh man, and having one-night stands, whatever, all those things don’t point back to that. But this one has a strange eerie kind of reminiscence and again -
THERAPIST: What’s the similarity and the feeling you have about the experience?
CLIENT: The anticipation; it’s exciting. The belief that if this were wrong it wouldn’t be legal or if this were wrong it wouldn’t be allowed by my father or between my sister and me or whatever. Even though it was kept secret for a reason. [00:38:56]
THERAPIST: Right. So sort of that mixed idea of whether or not it’s really, is it really illicit? It’s sort of illicit but is it sort of testing, pushing the boundaries of well -
CLIENT: Yes. I mean would I tell my friends what I do at home even when I was little? No. Would I tell anyone now? No. And I know it’s not okay, I mean clearly. I don’t know that’s about all I have. [00:39:47]
I do know that when I have a schedule, when I have things planned out, my days I’m feeling good I’m feeling like I’ve got purpose all those things. Coming back on that Monday I was just thinking I’m really, really sore and I’m going to go down. And from there it just feels like a runaway train, one mind. [00:40:32]
So and I almost didn’t tell you about this because it’s so perhaps I’m still kind of I thought I made progress and the other thing after I said to myself, talk about the clarity and intellectualizing, I said to myself well maybe you’re just not ready to give this up yet. Maybe there’s a reason. And yes, okay I guess maybe I wouldn’t have thought some of the things I thought recently as far as maybe why I’m doing this if that hadn’t happened. I don’t know. [00:41:21]
THERAPIST: Well you’re clearly not ready. You haven’t found a way to not do it. That doesn’t mean that it’s not something you should be working on because it doesn’t make you feel good in the end. And because yes it is sort of in opposition to other things you want in your life. I mean you want your relationship with your wife to be stronger; this isn’t helping that. So I mean that’s why you still work on it.
But I think the step is to ask yourself those questions. As you’re noticing that you have an urge to go start to ask yourself well what would happen if I didn’t? What if I am anxious today? Yes maybe going would sort of provide that sort of release but what’s going to happen to me if I don’t have that release? To start to question sort of the assumptions that are behind some of the feelings that you can there’s an assumption that you can’t withstand the discomfort and it’s an assumption that it’s not really up to you but maybe they’ll be some sort of divine intervention or something else that would actually stop you. It’s a start to question those underlying assumptions. [00:42:34]
CLIENT: I think, I mean I think you’re right but I think when I’m in that mindset it’s very hard for me to speak to myself rationally and to say step outside so you know what will happen. And I’m not saying to forget about it -
THERAPIST: No I absolutely agree that it’s something that’s really hard to do because you’re taking what’s a really emotional state and trying to get it to communicate with the rational part of your brain. And reason and emotion are not the same language; it’s hard to they’re both really potent and but they don’t you’ve got all that emotion sitting in the back of your brain and your hunting (ph) brain and you’ve got all your reason and logic way up here in the frontal lobes. They [00:43:18]
CLIENT: You’ve got to shake it up a little bit?
THERAPIST: They connect, there are connections between those different parts of our brain but yes it’s not the same. It’s different languages just going on inside your head. To try to get that feeling of I’ve got to do this to kick off a red flag of really, do you have to do this, that’s the and why.
CLIENT: I mean some of those things I was sort of doing but I, it’s almost the rational just shut down. But the, I mean I’m hoping the DVD guy calls so I can have some -
THERAPIST: Right and that’s, those are some of the skills that you’d be sort of reinforcing in that group. But until the DVD guy calls you I will help encourage you to get those skills in practice also. Why don’t we wrap up there for today? For our schedule I have us not meeting next week but meeting the following week? [00:44:28]
CLIENT: You’re not here next week?
THERAPIST: I am here. We can meet -
CLIENT: I think it was probably because I was hoping the DVD was starting but it’s not so if you have next week available -
THERAPIST: I sure do that’s why I check in with you. So I can do your normal 12:30 time on the 18th? And that’s also what we have on the 25th. And then I am away that following week, the first.
CLIENT: As I’m moving that day.
THERAPIST: Moving okay, so we reconvene on Friday the 8th? [00:45:04]
CLIENT: Actually I’m out of town that week. I’m working actually.
THERAPIST: That whole week?
CLIENT: Actually, yes, that whole week.
THERAPIST: So Friday the 15th?
CLIENT: Yes. Yes, I’m going to the Chautauqua Institution to work for my old boss for a week. Interviews she’s doing I’m recording them for her. And strangely enough they have two sets of talks each day. And the other person who’s there that week is Ken Burns so I’m hoping that I have my mini documentary done by then. [Laughs] Anyway, so I’m going to corner him and say hey, want to give me a job? Okay so I just need a pen. Thanks.
THERAPIST: You’re welcome. [00:46:18]
END TRANSCRIPT
