Transcript of Audio File:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Where do we start today?

CLIENT: I'm less stressed than I was last week, but I'm still not completely better. Like I think the Seder being over helped it.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: But now I'm actually, because I talked to my Mom about the whole housemate situation an she said that like -� I mean, first she had made some sort of, from the outside good suggestions but from the inside bad suggestions.

THERAPIST: Like what?

CLIENT: Like, "Why don't you?" I mean, okay, so abolishing communal dinners might help except we'd still have to have people do dishes.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And my Mom was like, " Well, why don't you have the people be responsible for their own dishes that they make during the day?"

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: And I was like, "That's what we're supposed to be doing. We have had this discussion multiple times. It never gets fixed."

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: And, you know, Eliza (ph) and Aimee are leaving and I will be the only one who is responsible and gets anything done. And I can't deal with pressure. And so when my Mom said it might be okay then to move into a new apartment.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: But then I have to pack and, you know, Sydney' stuff is still in my room.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:01:22)

CLIENT: Yeah, it does. And I'm not sure whether or not I'd be able to get everything. And even if I do find a place, then I have to find a place like �

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I mean, I think it probably, you know, I think it might be the right choice. So then, you know, a few days later I was sort of second guessing myself. I'm like, "Oh maybe I could just stay. Maybe it won't be that bad. Maybe it was just over stress." But (sigh) (pause) really no one else is good about doing their chores.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And it's really a big problem. I guess if we just had, you know, stopped being communal altogether.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Except for like, you know, buying our food together and such that like people can eat things, but no longer having the chore cycle or something. And if I'm making money I could, in theory at this point, once Eliza (ph) and Aimee are gone �[00:02:25]

THERAPIST: When are they leaving?

CLIENT: Their lease in the new place starts on April 15th, but they're probably moving out around May 5th, they said.

THERAPIST: Mm. So soon.

CLIENT: Yeah. So very, very soon. And even now (ph) Aaron's like, "Oh, I don't even know if I have money to renovate." Like do the renovations of Eliza (ph) and Suzanna's apartment. So after all that. You know, and it's not like he's going to be able to save us much money when he's only having three people besides him renting. And (pause) but once they leave it'll be bad.

And I don't know what I was going to say before, but �(pause) Oh. But once they're gone, Aimee, right now, is the only one in the house who doesn't have a job. So everybody in the house has a job. So maybe we could pay for people to, you know, once a month clean the bathrooms and the kitchen floor. Well, except that the �[00:03:32]

THERAPIST: Are these things other people are interested in doing?

CLIENT: Um. We haven't had the discussion in a while. Well before Ryan (ph) moved in. Like it had come up before, but at the time I was unemployed. And I'm like, "Yeah, I can't spend."

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: All, well, like more of my parents money on this. But it is something we could bring up again. Though it wouldn't solve the dish problem. And it wouldn't solve the problem, like if we only had them come in once a month, it wouldn't solve the problem of like Joshua throws all the food on the floor all the time. And it gets really disgusting and like having to clean it up.

THERAPIST: There's still some daily maintenance that needs to be done.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, four people will be going through less dishes, so maybe we wouldn't be emptying the dishwasher all the time. But we still would need to clean out the fridges and do other things. But, yeah, I think if we could stop the whole communal meal thing it would be a lot easier. And also Aimee is doing a lot of the grocery shopping now.

So I'm not sure who would do it because Aaron would be the one to logically do it if he had time. But he's forgetful about things and stuff. So I don't know if he'd be able to, you know, if we say we're out of milk, go and get milk. Because Aimee has a bike with big baskets on it. [00:04:55]

THERAPIST: Mm. So she's been responsible.

CLIENT: So she's been responsible for the local, stuff.

THERAPIST: Well when we talked a few week ago on the phone, and the idea of moving and the discomfort with your apartment came up.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: One of the things that you were feeling anxious about was feeling the responsibility to be there to do your chores and to cook, but not really spending much time there otherwise.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But another piece that seemed to be motivating it was that your boyfriend expressed feeling really uncomfortable in your house.

CLIENT: Yeah. Which sometimes he still does. Like he's been okay with being over for Passover and stuff. But, you know, it would make sense that he'd want to be at his place during the week while I'm at my, well when I'm at work.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Because -

THERAPIST: Of course.

CLIENT: You know? Though if I take the car, he is capable of taking the T to his place.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know, or a cab or something. It's just that like he doesn't always want to and he feels stuck. But that shouldn't be my problem. I mean, because if he �I'd have to wake up earlier and it would be kind of out of the way to go from my place, drop him off at his place, at like seven o'clock in the morning and then go to work. But, I mean, it would be �[00:06:20]

THERAPIST: So how much of moving would be to solve his problem, and how much of it would be to solve yours?

CLIENT: Um. (pause) Probably thirty/seventy, I think.

THERAPIST: And does that feel right for you? There's no right or wrong answer here, this is about what works and feels right for you.

CLIENT: I don't know. Because there's a part of me that thinks, "Oh, I should save up money." You know?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And not spend all this money on being �You know, wait until I have a job that actually pays enough to live off of before I get an apartment of my own.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: If I did have my own place it would be a lot better. Like a lot of those chores would be gone.

THERAPIST: Well fewer people creates less mess.

CLIENT: Yeah. And it's just like, you know, so many people are, like Aaron especially I think, is really bad about putting things in the sink and not soaking them when they really need to be soaked. And then it's �Like I would know from my own dishes, like I could soak things. [00:07:37]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know, and if I didn't get my dishes done right away there'd be no one to say, "Ah. There are dirty dishes in the sink."

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Like things like that. And, you know, I guess that's really the big one. And, you know, especially if the fridge was all my own maybe I could do more of cooking things ahead of time to have multiple meals. And I guess there's nothing stopping me from doing �Well, except I guess it's because if I cook ahead of time just for me and make food and then I just heat up the other food, I'm not always having to wash the pots from making new food.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT Which would not be the case at my current place because other people make their own pots. You know, and even because I did dishes on Saturday night and already the sink is full of all these dishes. And last night the meal that they had was a meat meal, and these are dairy dishes that are filling the sink. [00:08:37]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: So I don't know where they came from. But it's Passover and Aaron goes by the (ph) opinion that you can't use dishwashers that you use the rest of the year on Passover. You have to hand wash all our dishes. And the meat side we don't have any dishes to eat on, we use paper. But on the dairy side we actually have real dishes and silverware and stuff that we have to wash.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And I know (inaudible at 00:09:11). Theoretically, there are four of us who are supposed help out doing the cleaning on Tuesday night. But I feel like a lot of the dishes will fall to me.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And maybe I could make it less bad by doing them before Passover ends. But Passover becomes a lot bigger when you have [nine people in the house.] (ph)

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And the fact that we're like, "Oh, we have to have both kitchens." You know? We don't. We really could just like have the meat kitchen be the one that we kasher and in the dairy kitchen, like for dairy stuff, just do paper plates and stuff for like matzo and cream cheese and stuff.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Because most of the things, at least most of the things that I �Or maybe kasher the microwave and then we could make matzo pizza. Or the oven, which is self cleaning. Like we could do a lot less than we do.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: If people were more up to that, but they're not.

THERAPIST: Well it has to be a group decision. And that's part of communal living.

CLIENT: Yeah, and so the more stricter standards of Passover get, you know, put on there. And we didn't even have to do it that much for Passover, just in terms of chores for cleaning as opposed to cooking things. But it's still stressful. [00:10:35]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Like, I don't know. And the fact that at least soon Ryan (ph) will be graduating and we'll be moving somewhere. But not having someone live in the room next to me when there's a door in between the two rooms as opposed to just a wall. You can hear a lot and I feel like I don't have much privacy in my room.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: So that's also a problem. So (pause) I have a lot of reasons to go.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I just don't know if I have the resources and the time and stuff to find a new place and move myself into it. Especially given that Sydney' stuff is still in my room and, also, especially given the fact that now I'm working three days a week. And I'm going to want to work a bunch of Fridays to make up for all the days that I missed. So, yeah, it's really, like it's just so scary and I don't know what to do. [00:11:43]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And maybe I should just let the status quo be and just continue to do stuff.

THERAPIST: The change is scary? What's so scary?

CLIENT: I don't �Okay. If I could magically be living in my own apartment tomorrow, that would be fine.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I'm not afraid to live on my own. I've lived on my own before. It's fine.

THERAPIST: The scary part is organizing it.

CLIENT: The scary part is the logistics of it. Yeah, organizing it.

THERAPIST: What makes you doubt your ability to do that?

CLIENT: Well just a lack of space to put everything more than anything else. Like while I'm packing. You know, if there were an intermediate place where I could put boxes and stuff that would probably help a lot. It's just I have a lot of stuff right now in my room from lack of having adequate spaces to put in, that sort of like is on my desk in a pile (inaudible at 00:12:40).

You know, there are boxes on the floor and things that have piled up. And, you know, on the side of the bed that Sydney sleeps on he has a lot of stuff that, like because he's gotten into the habit of opening up packages and not recycling the boxes right away.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I mean, I guess I've had like -

THERAPIST: It seems like that can be remedied.

CLIENT: Yeah. If I could clean my room. I probably, you know, and I wouldn't even, if I hired movers then, yeah.

THERAPIST: Mm. Yeah. So there are ways to get help.

CLIENT: Yeah. It's also a matter of finding a place and for me, well I guess, you know, maybe I'm real spoiled but I really would not want to live in a place that didn't have laundry in that building.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Like that's sort of a deal breaker for me.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And if it had hookups, my parents would be willing to buy me a washer and a dryer. But if it doesn't then that would be a problem. Like at the old house we had to bring things to the laundromat and, you know, doing laundry was a big thing. And you only did it, you know, you'd go as long as you could without, you know, until you've used up all of whatever clothes (inaudible at 00:14:07), and then possibly buy more of those such that you can go longer without doing laundry.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And then you'd have to drag everything over. And I guess it could be maybe I will use Sundays as a laundry day. But it seems like a really big hassle and I really would rather have my own laundry machines if there were hookups.

THERAPIST: So it seems like you need to find out what's available before you start -

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: deciding whether or not it's possible.

CLIENT: Yeah. And I've moved the time a little bit but I haven't had a chance to do much looking. And I'd have to, like I don't even, just also when looking for a place for Sydney, that was really difficult. And I'm just afraid it's going to be more of that again.

THERAPIST: Mm. But you managed. Right?

CLIENT: Yeah. Well, except that I found him a place with roommates.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And so I'm trying to find a place just for me without roommates that's a reasonable cost.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. But you know how to look for an apartment.

CLIENT: I do. Sort of. I mean I've never looked for an apartment on my own that I didn't get through knowing other people. [00:15:21]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Like junior year of college when I moved off campus I was living with someone else in the Jewish community. Senior year two of my friends were living in the apartment and they were leaving and through them I got in touch with the person who was subletting in it. And I got that apartment that way. And then in the old house I knew Aaron and then I moved with Aaron to the new house. So I've never actually done the whole like meeting an agent.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And scheduling a time, and going to the different places, and/or like I've looked at things on Craigslist. But I don't know if Sydney had stricter apartments than I did or what not, but it was sort of (pause) yeah, I don't know. I guess it was harder to find places that were not super, duper expensive.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And I don't know that he'd actually need more space than me, but I don't know why it was so difficult then. [00:16:36]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I guess maybe because, especially because we were looking for a place in July or something, most places are June or September for move in available date. So maybe that was it.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I don't know.

THERAPIST: But even in those circumstances you were able to find what you needed.

CLIENT: Sort of. But I've never actually for myself found an apartment from scratch. Or contacted people to look at apartments with or anything. Because I really don't want �If I can't make it �If I could make the house be less communal, if like other people agreed with me, which hopefully they would.

THERAPIST: So do you have a house meeting set up where you can have that conversation?

CLIENT: No. We don't. I'll have to send out an e-mail to get people to schedule one. [00:17:38]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Maybe that's your first step is finding out how are other people feeling amongst the people that are going to be there. And maybe there is interest in doing something along the lines of what you're interested in doing.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It sounds like that would be the less stressful option for you.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Make the house more compatible with what you're wanting.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: If other people are not interested in that, then maybe it's time to look on Craigslist for apartments for rent or contact a real estate agent to help you sort through what's available.

CLIENT: Hm. Yeah. I guess. (pause) It's like, I don't know. I think living on my own would be good for me maybe.

THERAPIST: Hm. That sounds very hesitant.

CLIENT: It's mostly the feeling guilty about spending the extra money. If I could find a place that had enough room for me in a not horrible location for the six hundred dollars a month plus utilities that I'm currently paying, that would be great. That is never going to happen. [00:18:49]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Like I'm sure that the prices have gone up. So if I want to be in the better locations it's really, really unlikely. If I had the money to buy a place so I wouldn't have to move, that would be really nice. But that's like, it will take �

Like even if I didn't have to spend any money currently. Like if I took my whole year's salary it would not be enough to make a down payment on a house or an apartment or anything like that. So there is no way I can do that in my current situation.

THERAPIST: Mm. It seems like you're realistic option is to talk with the housemates and see how other people are feeling.

CLIENT: They might be less frustrated than me because they're not doing chores. And they won't be feeling like they're having to do extra chores because they're not even doing their own. But at least, I think, they would get the sense of like no one shows up for communal dinners anymore. We should stop doing that. [00:20:08]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Like that might be. And if I don't have to cook then I could change the night I did dishes to Thursday nights. And then I'm not working on Friday and that would be better.

THERAPIST: That would be better for you.

CLIENT: Yeah. Like I'm okay with doing something like that.

THERAPIST: Well let's take it one step at a time. You can't imagine what they are going to say or what they are going to feel. But you can schedule a meeting.

CLIENT: Yeah. Maybe. I mean, it's just also really hard to pin everyone down. But we need to do that because things are about to fall apart.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And, I mean, if Eliza (ph) and Aimee are moving out in a month, what we have to �It is (inaudible at 00:20:58)

THERAPIST: It needs to be changed anyway.

CLIENT: Yeah, it has to get changed anyway.

THERAPIST: So it makes a lot of sense to have a meeting.

CLIENT: Yeah, and if people are not as interested in having there be a weekly Friday night dinner. We could keep the clean and people could make Friday night dinners if they wanted to. And if people care about them more then they can make more of them. And if they care about them less then, like it might not be as even. But then, you know, I'd be okay cleaning up every other week.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Like with someone else I would not be okay cleaning every other week and cooking every other week too, and having no weeks off. The cooking is usually what stresses me out most.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: So (pause) yeah, it really seems unsustainable. So, yeah, I think it would be a better system. And like the old house, that's what we, you know, we didn't have communal dinners. We had chores and people actually did do their own dishes. And well we had some chores. Like I was responsible for taking out the recycling and for emptying the dishwasher and stuff. [00:22:16]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: But less people means less of a big deal. And I guess, yeah, the one thing is the whole Joshua throwing everything on the floor and Aaron never cleaning up the counter of the baby. It gets really gross. And that at least is solved by when someone is, you know, babysitting. Then he cleans it because he also agrees about it being gross.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Whereas Aaron will just let all the dishes stay there and all the crumbled up food that's a mess. And yogurt and whatever, he will just leave it there. Which is so frustrating. I guess it doesn't really hurt me. I mean the food on the floor actually does affect me in that I have to wear sneakers into the kitchen or something. I can't go barefoot anymore. [00:23:18]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: But, um. (pause)

THERAPIST: So that's one real big change is having a baby in the house and -

CLIENT: Yeah. Because it's like I didn't want a baby. It's not my baby. It's not my responsibility. I shouldn't have to be cleaning up after it just because Aaron doesn't feel like it. It's one thing if you're a parent and you want the other parent to do all the work, and that's not fair. But it is no way, shape or form my baby.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Joshua is not my baby.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Joshua is Aaron's baby. I just happen to live in the same house. Aaron was the one who chose to have a child. Completely his choice. It wasn't like someone who gets pregnant unexpectedly. He went out and adopted a child. So he took on the extra responsibility, therefore he should be the one responsible for washing Joshua's high chair and sweeping up all the food that Joshua puts on the floor. [00:24:28]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And the fact that he doesn't do that is very frustrating.

THERAPIST: And now you're angry with him.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Does he know that you're angry?

CLIENT: I don't know. I've asked him before and sometimes he's gotten annoyed at me when I ask him to clean up the high chair. But it's just he shouldn't get annoyed. Like, you know, when Bridget was sleeping over there was the room, the bedroom was not the bedroom, the TV room because we don't have a guest bedroom anymore. The TV room was a complete and total mess.

And I asked Aaron to clean up Joshua's stuff. And he's like, "Oh, well there's only, you know, a blanket and this rocker," or whatever. But like, no, all those torn up tissues on the floor.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: That's Joshua crawling around and tearing up tissues on the floor. And in the end I ended getting Ryan (ph) to do it because his job is to sweep in there. But because it was not acceptable that I was having someone over who was sleeping there. It was not a place where one should have to sleep. [00:25:35]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Because Ryan (ph) had never done that chore of sweeping the floor in the TV room. So really everyone, like even my, sometimes I'm bad about like [falling down on fridge cleaning] (ph), but at least I do it enough. And there are just so many times that I wash other people's dishes and stuff that it's just, yeah, maybe �

And I guess the other thing is, you know, say my rent is seven hundred now. Say a new place was going to be at least ten fifty for something decent. It would cost less than six hundred and fifty a month to have someone clean the house even if it was every week.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: So if we had someone sweep the floors and vacuum the couches and do that every week. And especially if I wasn't the only one paying for it. That would be less expensive than finding my own place. [00:26:41]

THERAPIST: So would that be preferable to you?

CLIENT: I don't know. I guess it depends on also what Aaron's plan is for Ryan's room. Because it was really irresponsible of him and really unfair of him to have both rooms be occupied and not be willing to put up a wall there.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Because we really can't do that much more soundproofing. I really need my privacy. So, I don't know. I don't know whether or not Aaron -� I don't know whether or not it would be preferable. From a money standpoint it would be.

THERAPIST: Mm. But that's only one factor.

CLIENT: Yeah. But it seems to be the biggest factor for me. I don't know. But if I had my own place then I could have kittens and stuff.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Yes, I know, that would add more chores for me to feed them everyday and clean up their litter box. But they would be kittens. (laughs) [00:27:42]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know, and eventually cats. And then I'd have cats around that weren't evil.

THERAPIST: Potentially.

CLIENT: Well 99 percent. They can't be worse then our cat.

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: They can't. But, you know, because our cat is so evil no one else can have pets in the house because our cat would get really angry. And, you know, and I could use a whole space and dye things and not have to worry about, "Oh am I taking up space with my dying." You know, I could do whatever I wanted. So, it seems like it would be overall an improvement if I could get the right apartment and if I could make the move somehow not horrible. [00:28:50]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: But it just seems like maybe I should wait and maybe I should save up the money. And maybe I should just get over it and deal.

THERAPIST: Well you seem unsure.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: There are pros and cons on either side. But you're definitely unhappy with how things are right now.

CLIENT: Yeah. But maybe I should just stick it out even I am unhappy.

THERAPIST: Well, I wonder if you could �It sounds like the first step is finding out what other people in the house are willing to change.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Because it sounds like until you know that you don't know what really �You're not making an informed decision. You need to know really what your options are here. Are your options living in the house exactly as it is now, minus Eliza (ph) and Aimee?

CLIENT: Which would make it no longer exactly as it is.

THERAPIST: But without the change in the chore responsibility and communal meals.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Those are the things that you have control over changing. You don't have control over changing whether or not those roommates stay or leave. They're leaving.

CLIENT: Uh huh.

THERAPIST: But the things that you could potentially change is the communal meals and the chore responsibility. You need to be informed about whether or not, what those things are going to look like after Eliza (ph) and Aimee leave before you can really know how these two things compare. [00:30:07]

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: It doesn't seem like you can really compare the house versus an apartment on your own right now because definitely Eliza (ph) and Aimee are leaving, and potentially other things could change if you have a meeting and talk to the remaining housemates.

CLIENT: Mm hm. Yeah. (pause) I don't know.

THERAPIST: It seems to me that you've got to take that first step so you know what you're really making a decision about.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Before you invest a lot of worry into determining what could potentially happen. And to know what your options are.

CLIENT: Or I could just go ahead and look for a new place.

THERAPIST: You could, but it seems like you're hesitant to do that because of the money and you don't know what you're leaving.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: So if you want to do that and it doesn't matter to you what the house options could look like, then you might as well do that. But as I'm listening to you talk it sounds like you're hesitant about spending the extra money that living on your own would most likely be. [00:31:18]

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: I think it's very unlikely you'll find a place on your own for what you're paying now.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So, if that's something that you're comfortable about, why would you deny yourself the option of changing things in the house? Or the potential of that option.

CLIENT: I guess you're right. It's just that it seems kind of, like I'll ask, I'm just very doubtful that things will get better.

THERAPIST: Ah. I see.

CLIENT: Especially because we'll talk about it and I'm sure they'll say reasonable things and even think reasonable things. It's just whether or not they continue to, you know, if they'll do what they say. You know, like, "Yes, I will do my own dishes after I've cooked something," if that's not going to happen.

THERAPIST: You don't believe it.

CLIENT: Like we've said these things before and they've not worked out before.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I don't see it actually changing.

THERAPIST: So it seems like the only thing that could really change is whether or not you're having communal meals. Because if no one is cooking a communal meal then it's not going to happen. [00:32:22]

CLIENT: Yeah. Because it really does seem like that's the only thing I can change. Either that and/or whether or not we'd be willing to throw some money into having people clean. And it's also maybe just because -

THERAPIST: Hm. Right. Being willing to hire someone. That seems like it could be a choice.

CLIENT: Yeah, because though the people we had to do the cleaning before Passover did not do a very good job. Like they didn't clean under the couches at all. Like I could barely tell that they had even come in. And it's like if I could have done a better �If it's their job to be cleaners -

THERAPIST: Were other people pleased with their work?

CLIENT: No. We all sort of had this, like because we were looking to do the whole finding chametz thing. And under the couch it's like, "Oh, there is tons of chametz."

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know. Nothing ever happened and they didn't get the TV room at all. Or, you know, "Look we found all these Cheerios." Like if they had done their job cleaning then we wouldn't have found all those Cheerios. It seems like I'm not even sure what they cleaned. [00:33:30]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: But it seems like they didn't really clean that much.

THERAPIST: That's disappointing.

CLIENT: Yeah. And last year we had something similar to that where, because I guess because we shouldn't have to hovering over them and telling them to do every single little thing.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: They should, you know, if we outline it for them beforehand and be like, "We want these areas cleaned," I think is should be obvious that we want under the couch to be cleaned too.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And it's not like I've always had bad experiences with people cleaning the house. You know, we used to have someone come in every other week for my house, with my parents growing up.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And that works fine. And maybe it's because we were starting with a higher baseline. You know, as opposed to having a cleaner come in once a year. So, yeah I really don't, I don't know, maybe if we did more research this time or something. (inaudible at 00:34:34)

THERAPIST: And getting some personal recommendations can help.

CLIENT: Yeah, because this just was not a good experience. And, I mean, we didn't have to, like Aaron's Mom donated that as a present for Aaron.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: To have someone come in and clean the house. And the other thing that I can't change is the whole whether or not Aaron will put another person in that room after Ryan (ph) moves out.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And thus neither of us having -

THERAPIST: Feeling like you have no privacy?

CLIENT: Yeah. It's like we put in a real door and that was supposed to help and it really didn't. So, yeah, you can still hear everything. It needs to be a wall and not a door.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: So, yeah, that's another thing that won't get fixed no matter what I say. Unless it's like, "Okay, if Aaron isn't going to do the renovations then maybe having the fourth person in the house live in the area that was Eliza (ph) and Aimee's and just do that for a year. And with a move out day beginning of June. I don't know. [00:35:54]

THERAPIST: The frustration is clear.

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't know if that's why I've been going so crazy or if it's just been something else.

THERAPIST: Well you did say you noticed a difference after the Seder. So it seems like that was something that was causing you some stress.

CLIENT: Yes, but it didn't feel, like I felt less stressed, but I've still been having bouts of feeling suicidal. So it's not like it made the problem go away.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: So yeah, it's really not �(pause) Like the problem has not been solved.

THERAPIST: Mm. What are the suicidal thoughts? What are those like?

CLIENT: Well I guess it's just feeling a huge, well I mean I'm not even so saddled (ph) all the time, but sometimes it turns into suicidal. I can't really describe it. It's like this huge amount of panic that doesn't seem to go away. And I don't think it's as strong as was but it still comes up. [00:37:03]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And it's possibly even my brain just being used to thinking in these patterns that it's sort of doing it automatically for no good reason. It could be that.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I don't really know how to train -

THERAPIST: What's the pattern? When you say, "My brain is thinking in these patterns."

CLIENT: Well it's starting and thinking that I'm panicking and then that dying would be a way to get out of it.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And that clearly having all this emotional anguish. And, yeah.

THERAPIST: Mm. So what could be a different pattern?

CLIENT: Not having any of these thoughts to begin with.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I'm not sure. When I start feeling panicky it's hard to be like, "Okay, I'm not going to panic this time."

THERAPIST: Mm. Ah. But I wonder if you could change so the panic is there, and right now your response is to think, "Well dying is a way to stop this."

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: What might be another way?

CLIENT: (pause) Possibly distraction. But it has to be distracting enough, because if it's not distracting enough then I'll still feel that way. [00:38:13]

THERAPIST: What has worked to stop it? Because if you're having episodes of this, and it's not constant, there must be times when it's not there.

CLIENT: It just sort of, I think just waiting for it to fade away is the only way to stop it.

THERAPIST: Mm. Ah. Well right there is another option.

CLIENT: Okay, but if it lasts for a really long time then it's really hard to not go to the, "Oh, dying would solve this." Especially if it keeps on coming back.

THERAPIST: Mm. How long do you feel like they are lasting?

CLIENT: I don't know. Sometimes they could last for like an hour or something.

THERAPIST: Mm. That must be like a really long time when you're panicking.

CLIENT: Yeah. It really is. You know it just doesn't seem like there's a good way.

THERAPIST: Mm. It's really hard to sit with that intensity for that long.

CLIENT: And it's like I've tried to everything right. I'm trying to get exercise. I'm trying to, like I spent on Friday afternoon and Saturday, both of those times, a good hour, hour and a half or two walking. I did a lot of walking. [00:39:16]

THERAPIST: Good for you. Does that help at all?

CLIENT: I don't know, because it's not like I'm doing the walking while I'm panicking. So -

THERAPIST: Mm. I wonder what would happen if when you panic, if when you start to feel panicky, if you could get yourself up and get out. If that might short circuit it a little bit.

CLIENT: Maybe. But when it's happening late at night, I'm not going to walk by myself and worry.

THERAPIST: Right. It's that when it's always happening?

CLIENT: Not always. Or some time if it's in the middle of me having to do something.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I can't really drop whatever I'm doing. But, um. (pause)

THERAPIST: What can be dropped and what can't?

CLIENT: Okay. If I'm in the middle of cooking dinner, you know, and there are vegetables in the middle of sauteing or something like that. Not that it usually comes up then.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: But if it did that would be a time where I couldn't just stop. You know? Or if it happened in the middle of work, I couldn't. [00:40:17]

THERAPIST: Mm. You can't take a break?

CLIENT: I guess I could take a break. Um. (pause)

THERAPIST: Sometimes panic is intensified by feeling trapped. Feeling like you can't take a break or can't get out. And I wonder if creating opportunities where maybe you actually could take a break.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: It might help to shorten the duration. Because if you start to feel like you notice that you have some options.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: That gives you a little bit more control. Sometimes that can take the edge off.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: So I think there are some times when it wouldn't be safe for you to get out and walk. You know, if it's happening in the middle of the night it's probably not a safe option, or your safest option.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean I'd also have to put on real clothes at that point which would be harder to do when I'm panicking.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. But there are things that you probably could put on hold. You know? You probably could, maybe not go walking for an hour or two hours, but if you're at work I would imagine that it's okay to, you know, stop what you're doing, take a ten minute walk, take a five minute walk. And see if that helps to discharge some of the energy. [00:41:35]

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: To break up that thought pattern a little bit.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: You know? Even if you're cooking, sometimes you can turn the heat off of something and go walk outside for five minutes. And then come back to it.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: You know? Is that how you intended to cook dinner? No, probably not. But if it gets put on hold for five minutes, that's also probably not the end of the world.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: So letting yourself see where there might be an option to do something that could help you, that might not stop it but might shorten their duration or take the intensity off of it to put you back in control.

CLIENT: Mm hm. (pause) Okay. I'm going to try it. It's just also hard to, when I'm in the middle of panicking be like, "Oh, I should go for a walk."

THERAPIST: It is hard. Looking for your out though is one way to change the pattern.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: And I'm not suggesting that it's going to be an easy thing to do.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: But I do think it's something that you're capable of doing to try to help yourself. Because you can do hard things.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Even when they feel unnatural. It's going to feel forced because it's different than what you're used to doing. [00:42:41]

CLIENT: Mm hm. (pause)

THERAPIST: Dying doesn't have to be your only way out.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Waiting it out has worked every time. It's sometimes really hard to wait and sometimes really long, but waiting it out does work because it always ends at some point.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: This might be another thing. You know, kind of forcing yourself to get up and moving might be another way to get out.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Giving you an option other than dying.

CLIENT: Mm hm. Yeah. I will try it if I can remember to try it. Which I can make no guarantees of remembering to try it, because it might get to the point where I just don't.

THERAPIST: Mm. You can also write your options down some place.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: So that it becomes something to kind of help jog your memory. Next time I panic I can try one, two, three. [00:43:45]

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Taking a walk. Talking to somebody. Waiting it out. You can put that down for yourself so that when you're panicking and looking for something to help you can have your own prescription.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: I know it's hard to think when you're panicking. It's hard to think logically.

CLIENT: Yeah. I think (inaudible at 00:44:13) it really depends on what I'm panicking about and how severe it is.

THERAPIST: Well hopefully this is a down swing. You said it's better than last week and hopefully it will continue to get better.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And get to a place where you feel like you can make use of some of the tools you have to manage it.

CLIENT: I was even able to get to work on Thursday.

THERAPIST: That's great because I know you weren't sure you were going to be able to, but you did it.

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean I ended up doing a little bit of (inaudible at 00:44:41). I got late partially because I got a late start and partially because (sigh) since I didn't make coffee I was like, okay, it's Passover. I don't think getting coffee at a Dunkin Donuts when there is like all the donuts and stuff.

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: I don't really think that's within the way I observe Passover.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: So I had nothing caffeinated really. So I ended up having to pull over at an exit in a parking lot and take a ten minute doze.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Because I was falling asleep at the wheel.

THERAPIST: Mm. Yeah, so it will be a lot easier this week.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: When you can make a pit stop.

CLIENT: Yeah. Bring the coffee with me in the first place.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I can do that.

THERAPIST: Well I'm glad you got to work under not ideal circumstances.

CLIENT: Yeah and, I mean, I ended up staying a little bit after, so -

THERAPIST: Good for you.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Believe in yourself because sometimes I think you surprise yourself by what you can do. [00:45:45]

CLIENT: Mm hm. Yeah. That's just how I am, worried about all the time that I've missed. And so far no one's said anything, but I don't want to be behind with anything.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: But then again if I'm locking myself into working all the extra Fridays ever.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I'll have less free time.

THERAPIST: It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

CLIENT: I guess it could be like -

THERAPIST: It doesn't have to be all the Fridays ever or none of the Fridays never.

CLIENT: It could be like a Friday every other week or something.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. It could be.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I want you to take it one day at a time this week and concentrate on Tuesday, tomorrow. And then concentrate on the next day and the day after than.

CLIENT: Mm hm. Okay.

THERAPIST: And we wrap up there for today. We're on for an earlier time next week, right? At twelve thirty?

CLIENT: Twelve thirty. Yeah, I managed to move around the fingerprinting thing to do it the following week instead.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: It's actually not that far from here.

THERAPIST: Oh good. Get a little walk in when you (inaudible at 00:46:51). I will see you next week at twelve thirty.

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