TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi.

CLIENT: I completely forgot to bring a check, but I will bring it next time.

THERAPIST: Oh, that's okay, just bring it next time. Take a couple of deep breaths. It sounds like you're out of breath.

CLIENT: Yeah. No, I'm just... I don't know, I guess things with Sydney, like I'm sort of getting worried, like we still have his roommate who had had said something to him about us being me being around all the time. She was out for the week, and so we ended up being at his place, even though I was like we should go to my place. And so we were going to my place, we were going to go last night, and then we were going to go this morning. We're running late, we're going to go stay now, but I still feel uncomfortable, because it has gotten to the point, even if she just says split the time more evenly in the future, I feel like I have to make up for all that other time by being at my place more. [00:01:06]

THERAPIST: What did she did she say that, split time more evenly in the future?

CLIENT: Yeah, that's I think I mean, I didn't see the e-mail but yeah, it's still like, you know, she was getting home last night and I'm like, I don't want to be out in the living room. I don't want the first thing for her to see when she gets home is me being there, even if, you know, maybe I hadn't been there for the whole week, like she'd have no way of knowing. But it still seems like if it's something you're annoyed about and then you come back to the thing that you're annoyed about.

THERAPIST: That's very thoughtful of you.

CLIENT: Except Sydney kept on saying it's not a problem and I'm like, you're not the one who gets to decide what is a problem for me. It's just, I don't know, and I'm not sure how much I can continue to deal with this situation, and being around all the time and stuff. So it's like, not like my house is perfectly livable either, because it isn't, because no one cleans or anything and the kitchen is always like a huge mess. I did my dishes on all the times that I was supposed to do them on the schedule, and I have not contributed like any dishes to this problem and it still becomes a huge problem with people. Whoever is supposed to have been taking out the trash and the recycling hasn't. I mean, I haven't been there in the past week, so when I get there today, I'm not sure if it's going to be any better, but if it's been like it's been for the past few months, then which, you know, there's no reason to assume it won't be like that. [00:02:33]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: So, it will probably be pretty bad, and like so it's hard to be there. And then also having less options in terms of -

THERAPIST: Is it hard for him to be there or hard for you to be there?

CLIENT: Hard for me, but like at least I could deal with it. I bring him too, but like it, you know, it's really, really not ideal, so it's good that I'm moving out, but like I'm not moving out until September, so.

THERAPIST: So you have another month and a half.

CLIENT: Yeah, and I'm not sure how like you know, and I could just stay over there, like maybe I could spend less time with Sydney. He doesn't really like that idea, but then he needs to come over to my like, he has to compromise on something.

THERAPIST: That's true.

CLIENT: Either me being around or going to my place.

THERAPIST: Is that something you've been able to put to him that clearly?

CLIENT: Yeah. He's sort of been like okay, we'll do that, but that doesn't really help them when it continues to not, you know, you can think whatever. [00:03:37]

THERAPIST: You're not seeing a follow through.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, we spent like a little bit of time, like around the 4th of July and stuff, at my place, but that's it so far. Yeah, there really is no food there and that, like I need to let go. We usually, like Aaron has the Costco membership and everything and like usually like we don't even have any boxes of pasta left any more or anything. I think Aaron has been not doing that. He did end up having surgery, elective surgery, but still like, he wasn't able to lift things heavier than I don't know, ten pounds or something, for at least two weeks, though I think the lack of pasta thing, I think happened before the surgery. So like, no one's keeping up on the grocery shopping and then I end up buying groceries for myself to eat while I'm there. I'm still paying for the co-op.

THERAPIST: Yeah, but it's not really working as a co-op any more.

CLIENT: Yeah, so I'm paying for all the food that I don't eat and then when I get over there, there's like barely anything to eat. So you know, and I want Sydney to be better. He says he's getting better and the whole, the libido thing has still been an issue and I've been trying to like not say much about that, but it's been a really long time. [00:04:55]

THERAPIST: What has we haven't talked about that in a long time either.

CLIENT: I lost track. I decided to stop counting.

THERAPIST: Counting how long it's been since you've...?

CLIENT: Since we've done anything sexual, and it's been at least a couple of months at this point I think, possibly longer. And he says he's getting better and he's on the Cymbalta, and so far, that hasn't had any wacky side effects or heart racing or anything. Maybe it's not maybe he's just intolerant to SSRIs and not to SNRIs. The Cymbalta will be okay and maybe it won't, but like, you know, I don't know how long I should stay with him, like on the chance that maybe he'll get better, but I could break up with him and then the next week, he could get better or something. Like the way it is, it's just not sustainable. It seems unfair to leave her something that is out of his control, that he's been trying to fix. If he hadn't been trying to fix it, that would be one thing, but he has been going to therapy and taking his meds and stuff. [00:06:04]

THERAPIST: Has he been working through those things, because there was a time that he wasn't.

CLIENT: He ended up missing therapy on Thursday, which I wasn't really thrilled about. I didn't find out about it until I got home, and then he's been he was feeling queasy today, like right before I came here, but he's going to try to go to therapy. His starts at three, so I think right now, he went to the car, to like hang out in the air conditioning there. So, he hopefully will go to therapy today. But he's being a lot better about taking his meds and stuff.

THERAPIST: That's encouraging. So you mentioned breaking up. How much thought have you been giving that?

CLIENT: Like every so often, when we get into fights and stuff and I'm just like feeling miserable and just, you know, wondering if it's worth it. I don't know, maybe a couple times a week.

THERAPIST: That's pretty frequent. [00:07:09]

CLIENT: I guess. It's just like, I don't know, part of me thinks I'm being really selfish, because part of it is like I feel like right now, I've sort of lost touch with a lot of my friends. Last summer, my really good friends had moved, so like I don't really have a support network or anything, and I feel like I'm probably a little bit too depressed and overwhelmed to be able to handle the whole move by myself and everything else. And like, you know, but that shouldn't be a reason to stay. I mean, I also, I do love him. I just, you know, can't like he hasn't been meeting a lot of my needs and he knows that, and it hasn't changed. I guess he really doesn't have he can only do so much, but it's still like a big thing, that I'm not getting a lot of my needs met. But then I feel like also, like I've gained all this weight and stuff and it's not like I'm going to if I broke up with him, it's not like I would necessarily even find someone else who did meet all my needs. Maybe I'm too fat to find someone who would actually want to be in this actual relationship with me. Like, that, so it's like that risk too. [00:08:22]

THERAPIST: So, do you feel like he's not attracted to you? Is that what you're starting to question?

CLIENT: No, I think he's still attracted to me. I'm questioning whether or not anyone else would ever be attracted to me at this weight, you know? I don't even I know that -

THERAPIST: You don't stay with someone because you don't think you're going to find anyone else. You stay with someone because you want to be with them.

CLIENT: Some people stay with someone because they think they're not going to find anyone else. I mean it's not ideal but like...

THERAPIST: Is that what you want to do?

CLIENT: I don't know. I mean, I also don't know that there is someone better, because on a lot of things, we're really good for each other. It's just this really big issue, and it's not even like normal. It would be one thing if I had started dating him and then found in general like oh, he always has a low libido, this might be a problem. But like normally, he does have a high libido. It's just that he's been depressed for a year and a half at this point, which is a really long time to be depressed.

THERAPIST: Yes it is. [00:09:22]

CLIENT: So it's like there's the potential for him to get better.

THERAPIST: It's a really long time to be with someone who's depressed. It's hard for both of you.

CLIENT: Yeah. Like he has the potential to get better. He just hasn't gotten better yet. (pause) (sighs) So, I'm not really coping very well with anything. The problem is (starts choking up) I can sometimes have these conversations up to a point and then he starts getting really depressed, even if I am using a calm tone of voice and everything. Last night, I wasn't yelling or accusing or anything, because then I started to get really sad and like wasn't saying anything, you know. I told him I'm not going to say a word right now. (shaky voice) I told him, I don't want to make you upset and then I started crying and he got upset that I was crying. I'm like, well what am I supposed to do?

THERAPIST: You need to be allowed to have feelings too.

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:10:23]

THERAPIST: What was the conversation that you were having last night?

CLIENT: Mostly about the libido, about the house and feeling uncomfortable staying there, about not getting my needs met and stuff.

THERAPIST: So it covered a lot. That is a lot of topics.

CLIENT: Yeah. I get mostly, the feeling trapped in the house and the low libido thing. He was sort of like come on, you're making it really, really tough for me. But I guess either on its own, would also be a huge problem, but like, (sighs) I really want to be in a place where I feel comfortable and right now, nowhere feels like home. My house doesn't and his house doesn't either and I don't you know, waiting another six weeks to have a place that feels like home is like a really long time. I mean, I guess I've gone through the majority of that period at least, and like you know, not as much left as like... [00:11:30]

THERAPIST: Does your house feel uncomfortably socially or physically?

CLIENT: Physically. (sniffles) Socially, I mean people aren't really around that much or anything. It's just physically, like.

THERAPIST: And it sounds like socially, his house feels uncomfortable.

CLIENT: Yeah, so... it's I mean it doesn't help that no one bothered to bring down the AC and put it in the kitchen at my place, so the whole downstairs area is like really, really hot and the ceiling fan. There's a ceiling fan in the living room but it doesn't really do that much and actually, [Nala's?] been really, really like every time we've over, she's been meowing at us, and having a full water bowl and having food left in her food bottle, and she just sits there meowing. It's the heat. So, like my room has the AC, but my room is also still like you know, I haven't really started packing yet. There's still a lot of his stuff everywhere. We've gotten it a little bit straightened out since they put in the new windows, but then also, there isn't a blind for one window. We had like, Melanie, the blinds stopped working on like so there's the one in the front and the one on the left, and the one on the left, it's not working. Melanie put up a curtain, it's like not really it's not an opaque curtain, it's more like a white that's translucent. It still lets in a lot of light. But then the one that's immediately in front of me, I have a blind, and then a few months ago it stopped working and so we sort of just had it there. We had to cut the cord. It was just completely down, at least it was like something blocking, but when they got rid of the window, they got rid of that, and so now there's no curtain or anything. So that's also kind of a problem. [00:13:25]

THERAPIST: So you don't have any privacy.

CLIENT: Yeah. But I don't really know that it's worth investing money in a curtain that I shouldn't really have to pay for and, you know, isn't going to benefit me for that long, or even getting the time to go to the hardware store and figure out how to install a curtain and whatever. So, like, and then I just have all my and then there are all the moths, and there are like the moths, like not just the ones that got into my yard and in the basement, but now they're like everywhere in the basement. When I went to down there, they were everywhere. Not everywhere literally but there were lots of different places. One was flying near my eye and one was like, the cup holder, a bunch of dead ones in the sink, and no one's bothered doing anything about the moths and no one cares about like moth.

THERAPIST: Who's responsibility is it?

CLIENT: That should be everyone's. Like I don't think I don't even know that an exterminator could come in and do anything, but the whole like, you know, we got all these airtight containers, and that was something that Liam and Melanie started and Melanie who was the one who was taking care of them when we had the infestation a few years ago. We still have those airtight containers, we still have to keep things in here, don't (sniffles) um, you know, don't leave things open and all that. I was good about following that rule and Melanie and Liam were but Aaron really isn't, and so I'm not sure who's fault that there are all these moths in the basement, but it's not solely my responsibility. There's really, you know, I can do what I can to keep the food in airtight things, but I can't really you know, I've been trying to keep all my I could, in the containers, but those moths are still flying around in there, there are like other things. I guess the flour is also in an airtight container, so we have some other dry goods in the basement, because originally, that's where we would keep things like pasta. So if there was pasta it would be there, and so there are things in the walls that could get to and feed on down there, besides the wall, but so I don't think it's just the wall that they're eating, but, yeah. Having the moths around isn't really fun either. It's just like really uncomfortable and I just can't wait to get out.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:16:07]

CLIENT: I have some possibilities, because there are two rooms that are open in the place I'm moving into, and one was nicer than the other one, and so since I was the first one, I decided okay, I want the nice room, but the nice room person is moving out end of August, but we don't know what date yet and whether or not I can move in earlier. If I could, it would be by a few days, and like right now, I have a moving van scheduled for I'm moving out, I have the movers for August 30th, because the 31st is a Saturday and the 1st, they're already booked. First I tried both companies, they were booked for most of the days before and after the 1st and also the 1st.

THERAPIST: A very popular moving day I'm sure.

CLIENT: Yeah. The second place was going to be $240 for the 1st, per hour that is, and then the problem there was a six-hour minimum, which my stuff would not take six hours. It will probably take three or four, assuming that I'm getting -

THERAPIST: Getting packed.

CLIENT: Which I'm going to do, or I would move other things myself. I'm not having them pack my stuff up, I can't afford that. And then the third company only had the two hour minimum but the 1st was booked for them, but the 30th wasn't. So I'm hoping that I could move in a few days early, but the thing is like Aaron, who's the one I've been in touch with, doesn't know if the other guy, Bobby, is going to move out early, because Bobby doesn't know that yet. But the other room, which he said was the exact same size. When I looked at it, it didn't seem like it, but maybe it was just because it was a little bit more run down and it could use a paint job. But that one, I think is already empty, because he had mentioned that the owner of the orange cat, because there are four cats. I thought there were three cats and then there's a fourth cat. So the fourth cat is the orange cat, who belonged to the person who lived in the room and he left and went to a new place and left his cat. They're trying to re-home the cat. So I think he already the way they said it, I think he is gone.

THERAPIST: No longer there. [00:18:30]

CLIENT: And left his cat. It's hard to like it takes a while for Aaron to respond to e-mails, because his job is so crazy and he has a new job and his hours are really weird, but I wrote him back when he had said that he wasn't that Bobby didn't know his schedule yet, like hey, maybe I should move into the other room, if it makes things easier, and is it true that the other guy is still out? Because if like the big thing well, I also asked if they are about the same size. So if they are, I could. There's enough time in there for me to go over and paint, you know? And then I could even push up my move date like maybe a few days earlier, such that I can get a little bit. It will cost less money, because I also put down a $200 deposit. It's cancelable up to six days before the move, or so, and up to 48 hours beforehand, you could use the deposit towards a different day, assuming availability. So I have some time but I really want to get that squared away. If I could move in early, then I could move in even earlier if I wanted to. [00:19:36]

THERAPIST: So I noticed that you started the session feeling pretty emotional and talking about your relationship. And now, you've moved to really focusing on details of the move. What feels -

CLIENT: It's my escape plan. I have an escape plan but then I guess it's still a hypothetical escape plan.

THERAPIST: Are you escaping your house?

CLIENT: My house.

THERAPIST: Your relationship? What are you escaping?

CLIENT: Escaping the house mostly, because then at least you know, and then like with Sydney, he would be more comfortable there, because he feels socially uncomfortable at my place. But I feel socially uncomfortable at his place and we're at his place all the time. So he knows that he needs to be at my place more, but then like we wouldn't have that issue any more. There would still be the libido issue but there wouldn't be -

THERAPIST: What will make the new house more socially comfortable for him?

CLIENT: He's met the new roommates and they're nicer. Because Aaron often is like doesn't really I don't know if he's always perpetually upset or has been just so stressed lately, but he seems really stressed and always like really short and it's that tone of voice that both I am Sydney pick up on it. It seems like he hates everything and Sydney is like Aaron hates me, and I'm like no, I think Aaron is just really upset, but I can see where you're getting that from. Aaron is just short with everyone right now and it's a problem. And then the physical uncomfortable. I think he's also, Sydney isn't thrilled with the whole kitchen situation either and the lack of AC and all that. So that stuff would be fixed with the move. So if I got that move to be earlier, it would solve the problems and that would be like about half of the problems in our relationship right now. The other half, that would [00:21:25]

THERAPIST: Yeah, so it really feels connected.

CLIENT: That, and if I did the whole like if I am being dependent on Sydney for the move, it's and also my job, with the car. He said if we broke up he'd let me continue to borrow the car, but it would seem really wrong.

THERAPIST: Have you discussed breaking up with him?

CLIENT: Yeah, I have and I just feel like I shouldn't continue to have that conversation with him unless I've made up my mind one way or other, because I don't want to threaten to break up with him, because I'm not threatening. I'm trying to figure out but like it doesn't it's not fair to him to like hear those processes going on in my head, if there's not much he can really do. It's not like I'm asking, you know, like he might say don't leave or whatever, but he can't really fix the different things. He can try to fix the house thing. He can't immediately fix the libido thing, and I'm thinking of all these other factors that aren't really having to do with him but having to do with my external situation, that I shouldn't be dependent on him at all, but kind of is, like in my mind right now. Then that just feels more unfair, because I don't want to be like oh, I'm staying with you because I don't have a support network outside of you. That's not a very nice thing to say and would be hurtful to him, and I don't want to like but like, those are the things that are going through my mind and they're just terrible thoughts, because I don't want to be a horrible and callous person that's only staying with my boyfriend because I need him and not because I want to be with him, but that's sort of like like it feels like there is a lot of that pressure there. Maybe I am staying with him, because I feel like I need more than him and not want to be with him. (takes a shaky breath) [00:23:11]

THERAPIST: How do you know if you want to be with him?

CLIENT: I don't know. It was easier when I wasn't feeling miserable all the time. I want to be with the him that is better, but that him doesn't exist yet and I don't know if it ever will. And so it's like, I take a risk either way, like there's no non-risky situation here. (blows her nose) Like it seems sort of wrong to leave. It seems wrong to stay if I'm thinking he'll get better and he doesn't, and it doesn't seem right. A big part of me thinks I should stay with him when it's a really hard time and stuff, especially if he will get better. And part of it's like well, I can't count on that. I've given him a year and a half so far, that's a long time, and it's not like we had like, you know, three or four years before that he was fine. We had a couple weeks and then he got really bad, I think when he lost his job. (coughs) [00:24:27]

THERAPIST: So that's when all this really started to change.

CLIENT: Yeah, when he lost his job. He's still too depressed to like really he's getting better about getting out of the house and all that stuff, but it's still not enough to be stable enough to have a job. My job at least is a contract position, that if I do have sick days, it just means I don't get paid. I'm still going to finish my project before the grant ends and you know, they will probably have some other nice things that I can do for them while I'm still there, depending on if I found a job afterwards. So for me, missing a day or two, doesn't especially because they really like my work, so now I feel less bad when I do have to take a sick day. But with Sydney, he'd have to take a mental health day every week, or more than that, or be late for work all the time, like if he got a job in a new place. I don't I have a lot of trouble thinking of a place that he could get a job at, that would actually be okay with all that, unless he got something work from home. [00:25:41]

THERAPIST: Did he ever have a problem with that when he was working?

CLIENT: When he was at Rivers Edge for a year and a half, it was a government job. As long as they didn't take too many sick days at once (clears her throat) no one really cared, you know? One time he was really sick and was gone for like a day, and wasn't able to even call in sick. When he went to work the next day and talked to his boss, didn't even notice that he had been gone. So, really lax attendance policy/not really caring about what they do. So there he could get away with it. With Schwinn, I think he had to push himself hard to go to work, but this is before he was like more of a mess. There, he did go to work but he wasn't as impressed as he was when he was at Rivers Edge. So it wasn't like he had to struggle all the time to get out of the house. You know, and it would be really he got fired his job at Schwinn because he wasn't actually good at the work that he was doing and he probably shouldn't have been hired for it in the first place. It wasn't like him it wasn't his depression that got him out, it was him naturally not being a good fit. [00:27:06]

THERAPIST: But it does seem like it's depression keeping him out of the workforce.

CLIENT: Keeping him out and it seems like it's something that could get him kicked out of a new job too, and you don't really want two firings in a row on your resume. So I think for him, well (A) he just, I don't even know he could even handle the pressure of a job right now. It's not like I tell him hey, don't get a job, but when he's worried about it, I'm like you should get a job when you feel ready.

THERAPIST: I wonder if not having a job actually contributes to depression.

CLIENT: It might, but I'm not sure that getting a job would magically fix it either.

THERAPIST: No. There's not a lot of magic to go around.

CLIENT: Yeah. Or like, you know, I don't think that getting a job would make him immediately so happy that the depression was able to like... He also has all those brain chemistry issues too. It was just sort of happening, because most people don't end up with depression when they get fired. [00:28:13]

THERAPIST: Not necessarily with the firing but it I guess one of the things I'm concerned about for you, and also what I hear when you talk about your boyfriend, is that the job loss has also led to a lot of withdrawal. I mean you talk about him just not even wanting to go to the kitchen for a meal. So there's been a lot of social avoidance, there's been a lot of withdrawal, there's been a lot of kind of pulling back from daily routine and from seeing other people, being connected. Those things can actually exacerbate symptoms of depression. So, not necessarily be the cause of it but certainly exacerbate what he was already maybe predisposed to. And I think the same thing happens for you. I mean you've talked about a lot of your friends have moved away, there's been a lot of change in the house, and you've become unhappy with that.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I mean the house used to be a source of pleasure for you. There were people around that you liked to talked to, people that were interested in playing games. That really helped with your mood, helped with anxiety, having people around, having forms of distraction that took you out of your head. Being able to enjoy things with people, and you've lost a lot of that. [00:29:32]

CLIENT: Especially Melanie moving out, I think was a big factor. Yeah, that was probably the biggest factor.

THERAPIST: It just seems like you spend a lot of time kind of almost hiding away with Sydney, where I used to hear you talk a lot about, you know, even though sometimes these things also brought some complications, but talking about your activity group, talking about your games, and I don't -

CLIENT: Well, I still do have my like, a different game started around the end of April, beginning of May. We didn't meet this past week but we've been meeting every in theory, we'd meet every weekend, but there are a bunch of things coming up in the summer, but like I have been doing that.

THERAPIST: Okay. I haven't heard you talk about that. I'm glad to hear you're doing that. I think it's important.

CLIENT: It's just yeah, like I don't have music anymore because it wouldn't be fair to them, to stay in the group, with my job, and I don't' want to join the honorable mention, if I could get in, which I'm not sure I would, because [Andrea?] is in the group right now and that just seems like it's you know, I think I have to wait until if he ever does leave the group, and if not, then I don't think I can join. I think it would just be too much stress. Even though he's not in charge right now, he has the propensity to try to take over. Because my first semester of music, Allison was the music director, it was just Allison. But he was doing all the backseat music directing ever, so. And when Nate took over, I guess Andrea was still assistant there, but yeah, you know, you might have people who could stand up to Andrea, but there's just so much snarkiness and stuff, that it just seems like it would not be as fun as not being in it, like it would be more of an obligation. They only meet one day a week though, so yeah, but yeah, I don't think. But also, you know, the older I get, the less it's feasible to be involved in groups that are based on a college or something like that. The honorable mention are like post-college, not associated with any (coughs) university or anything like that. Yeah, so I guess if I found a different post-college a capella, but they're the only religious one I know, it either could be non-religious ones. I don't think I am good enough. I might be good enough to get into the (inaudible). [00:32:36]

THERAPIST: Was that something you're interested in doing? I mean it was just something I mentioned.

CLIENT: I don't know.

THERAPIST: Because there are sort of activities you used to be involved in, that got you connected with other people and out of the house.

CLIENT: It's just that I'm too old now, like I don't think I can get involved with the stuff with (inaudible), because I'm ten years old than the freshmen now and I don't want to like, sometimes alums will come by and stuff but they're not regulars.

THERAPIST: Right. I wonder if there's community groups, rather than college groups, that either sing or have one of your other interests. If you feel like it would be useful to kind of make new friends if people have moved away, or connect with people.

CLIENT: Maybe. I'm not sure. I guess there are crafting groups. There was one that regularly met in one of the buildings at Yale, on Mondays, but I couldn't really go to that one, like then I had classes. I guess now it would be a possibility, even though I don't really know any of those people. Me and Kim and Cam were in a group for a while, but then Kim got a real job. Yeah. The thing is not being suited is not only like do I have other things going like I have a little bit of a stricter schedule with a job, but all my friends also have jobs. [00:34:04]

THERAPIST: Right, right.

CLIENT: I guess Brittany is still unemployed. We are meeting tomorrow, Mary and Evangeline, to see if the two of them are like still not working. But, yeah, when your friends are all employed, then you don't have as much -

THERAPIST: You have weekends and nights.

CLIENT: I guess the thing is I could like Liam and Melanie are not that far away, that I could theoretically hang out with them, and maybe I should.

THERAPIST: It sounds like you miss them.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Where are they?

CLIENT: They're sort of like on the maybe they were four blocks away from my house, I mean not that I'm going to be living there much longer, but yeah, they're not that far away at all.

THERAPIST: So it's not the convenience of having them home, but they didn't move far away.

CLIENT: No, they didn't move far away at all. They're like totally reachable. [00:35:08]

THERAPIST: Maybe it would just be an idea to sort of schedule, if not a regular thing, but maybe just schedule something with them for -

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Like get together in the next couple weeks, because it sounds like you're feeling a little isolated and a little frustrated, not comfortable at any house. So maybe meet someplace.

CLIENT: That probably would be a good idea.

THERAPIST: You'd feel wanted and welcome, rather than feeling like you're hiding away.

CLIENT: Especially, because the alternative would be like, you know, we work on Fridays and stay longer, and that just doesn't seem like that seems like a recipe for getting burnt out, even though when I'm at work I'm comfortable. Everybody there is nice and that's essentially a place that is really positive for me, but the commute makes it like...

THERAPIST: Right. The commute is really unattractive. It makes it a long day.

CLIENT: I really need to find another job that I can do as soon as I finish this one. Now it's like closer.

THERAPIST: Were you able to look at all this week? [00:36:20]

CLIENT: I looked a little bit. I haven't been able to write anything and I'm still a flake. I think I need to -

THERAPIST: Was there anything worth writing in a cover letter for?

CLIENT: Maybe. There was a $30 an hour contract job at the zoo in Meriden. I fit most of the requirements, except for the one that like, lots of experience working in large collections. Possibly, a medium collection but mostly small, but I don't that I don't know if that's one of the crucial things. Meriden is like a 40 minute drive, which is a lot better than an hour and a half drive, especially since it's and it's also a reverse commute.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:37:24]

CLIENT: So that one actually might be worth it.

THERAPIST: I think that sounds worth writing a cover letter for.

CLIENT: Yeah. I'm just sort of worried there, about the health insurance situation, because I'd be making I'd probably be making too much to get state health insurance.

THERAPIST: Are they offering health insurance?

CLIENT: No benefits.

THERAPIST: It's a contract.

CLIENT: It's $30 an hour, so it's enough money to be out of the running for subsidized health insurance, but I don't know if it's enough to pay for it. But maybe then, I could get a PPO and that might be worth it. I just also, like I feel like I need to talk to my supervisor and be like hey, I'm going to start looking, so I can get something as soon as I finish here.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Why don't you write up the cover letter, get it, and then if you feel like you need to have that conversation. You worry about the money and insurance later, down the road. It might not be worth figuring that out, if you don't get a call back. [00:38:22]

CLIENT: That's true. It's just sort of whether or not, like trying to figure out whether or not it's worth writing that cover letter.

THERAPIST: I think it's worth writing a cover letter, because it's a position in your field, it sounds interesting, a reasonable commute.

CLIENT: I have textile experience, which isn't even one of the things that they asked for.

THERAPIST: It sounds like it's worth it, just to get the practice in, of getting back in that habit of sending out those cover letters.

CLIENT: I guess the other thing that's sort of worrying is because that was the you know, when I had my zoo class, and that was the institute that we worked with, and our project was to interview everybody, because the zoo is falling apart, and like they're closing their library and they have to fire people because they have no money. So I guess maybe they have a grant, but it's another part-time.

THERAPIST: Temporary.

CLIENT: Temporary. I don't want to look like a job hopper.

THERAPIST: Well, but if they're temporary positions, it's not like you're leaving a job.

CLIENT: That's true. [00:39:22]

THERAPIST: I think that's very explainable, that you wanted to get good experience in the field, you're getting good experience in the field and they're temporary positions.

CLIENT: I had one other question for you, which is like I'm wondering, because tonight is a holiday, and so I'm supposed to be fasting and stuff, and I'm wondering whether or not you think that I'm depressed enough, that you know, because I get worse when I don't have food, or whether or not it would be more reasonable for me to like not even try fasting. Start it, feel miserable.

THERAPIST: Well, I think one thing we do know from your history is that when you are hungry, you do tend to feel more anxious and upset. So I think a question really is, how honest can you be with yourself. If you started a fast and recognized that you were getting starting to have symptoms, starting to feel anxious, having a panic attack, starting to have thoughts of self-harm, would you allow yourself to stop your fast before the end of the holiday. Because I think that's important and it's my understanding that you're not supposed to put yourself at risk. [00:40:40]

CLIENT: You're not.

THERAPIST: So if you can be if you can go into the holiday hoping to fast, but knowing that if it becomes a risk that you stop, then I think that's fine. If it's going to be hard for you to do that, if you kind of set your mind to do the fast and don't think that you'll be able to alter your plan if you need to, then I think you go into it without fasting. So it's really a matter of being honest with yourself. If you need to, could you stop your fast.

CLIENT: Yeah. I guess there's a part of me that's like oh well, what if I'm already feeling miserable and suicidal anyways, then like what's the point of not fasting if I'm going to feel that way too. Will fasting really make it that much worse?

THERAPIST: I mean, it's not going to make it worse permanently, right?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Because as soon as you end your fast, that part goes away. However, it's I guess really part of it is weighing what's the importance of the fast to you. This is a cost benefit type of thing. You've never really even when you have suicidal thoughts, you've never been at risk of following through on them, which is why I sort of give you some give you the power to make the decision, because it's very uncomfortable to have those thoughts, but I don't think that your life has ever been at risk. [00:42:10]

CLIENT: Yeah, that's probably true. I don't know, I think it's more, like I feel guilty if I'm not going to even try, but I think no matter what, I'm going to have well, if the fast starts at 8:00 and I have dinner at 7:00 and services start at 8:30, fasting until the end of services isn't really like a problem.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Except, I'm also supposed to read in the morning and I'm not sure if I need to be fasting for that. Again, that's not really such a big deal, to wait until after services. If they start at 7:00 in the morning and they get out at like 9:00, 9:30.

THERAPIST: So could you do that? Could you do sort of a 12-hour fast, instead of doing it from sundown to sundown?

CLIENT: Possibly.

THERAPIST: Maybe that would be a way in which you could feel like you were connected to your faith, but also assure that you're not going to reach that point where it's going to increase your symptoms.

CLIENT: (blows her nose) Unless I start getting worse before then, which is also a possibility. I don't think the sore throat is something. I guess if I make an exception for lemon cough drops, then that's sort of really cough drops are only sort of they're somewhere between food and medicine. There's also the heat. But maybe I'm just making excuses for not doing the thing that I should be doing. It really just feels like the only reason why I'm doing it is because I'd feel guilty if I didn't, and just like this sort of feeling of obligation as opposed to getting anything out of it. [00:43:50]

THERAPIST: It sounds like this is a deeper question of what your practice means to you. I'm sure there are plenty of people around the world who practice things out of guilt and obligation, but that's not how you practiced for a long time. It's your decision about whether or not that's how you want to practice. If it means something to you, then it might be worth some of the sacrifice. If it doesn't mean something to you, maybe it's not worth it.

CLIENT: I don't know, it's probably always been my least favorite holiday. It's not one that I like. Before, it might have been my least favorite holiday that wasn't one that I actively dreaded but just was like oh yeah, I don't really like this holiday. So until now it's like why am I even doing this. [00:44:51]

THERAPIST: Yeah. So I think you ask yourself that question. If you fasted, why would you be fasting? And then if you like the answer, if it's an answer that makes sense to you, then you try it with the knowledge that the rule is that if it's putting you in danger, if it's harming your health, then you don't. If you don't like the answer you come up with to the why would I be fasting question, then you don't. How does that sit with you? I'm not a religious leader.

CLIENT: No. I was asking more for like the medical opinion side of it. I don't really know who to ask for the rabbinical side, but I probably should at least ask whether or not it would validate people's obligation to hear the Book of Lamentations, if I'm not fasting, because that actually is a possibility.

THERAPIST: So is there someone you can ask?

CLIENT: Possibly.

THERAPIST: That seems like good research to do for you. [00:45:51]

CLIENT: But whether or not I can get an answer before tonight or tomorrow morning.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Tonight really isn't an issue because, you know, I cannot eat for like a half hour or something.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: That's not a problem at all. Most people do that on a regular basis.

THERAPIST: You do that on a regular basis.

CLIENT: Yeah. I do that on a regular basis. It's the morning where things start getting shaky, and whether or not that will actually be hardship, to fast until the end of services.

THERAPIST: Well see if you can ask someone in the religious community and then you make the decision that feels respectful to whatever congregation would hear you read, and also right for yourself.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, I shouldn't have because originally, I was like oh, I want to read the night. I guess I could do the morning, but I prefer the night. And then it was like okay, you're on for the night. Then, like a few days later, she hadn't found someone for the morning and was like hey, can you do the morning too, and I'm like okay. I'm regretting that decision. I also made the decision to take off from work, because if I did decide to fast, I couldn't get there safely.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. [00:47:14]

CLIENT: And also, which made it also possible to go to services in the morning.

THERAPIST: Because you would be at work.

CLIENT: Or on my way to work. I guess I could always go in late. Yeah, so like I don't know, I feel like I made a bad decision by -

THERAPIST: Well, focus on the decisions you have ahead of you because you can't change the ones you've already made.

CLIENT: No, but I would be able to like there might be someone who can read three, that's not me, on short notice, for the morning. Maybe I should call the person who's coordinating. I think I need a more informed opinion first, because I don't think she has any more knowledge about she's probably at my level of knowledge about Judaism, so she wouldn't necessarily know the specific answer to the, am I fulfilling someone's obligation if I fast, or if I stop fasting and I read. So, I probably do need to find that out.

THERAPIST: It sounds like that's your next mission. Why don't we stop there for today and we actually are on for Friday. [00:48:16]

CLIENT: Yeah, the 19th, and then the same thing for the 26th.

THERAPIST: That's right. So I will see you on Friday.

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