TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

[00:00:12]

THERAPIST: Where do we start?

CLIENT: So I realize I’m really bad about overreacting to things and I want to be able to fix it and I don’t know how.

THERAPIST: What brought you to this realization?

CLIENT: So yesterday, like, you know the scarf that I have? I lost it, and I had, like, just made it this winter, I didn’t have it for that long, and I felt really stupid about losing it. I’d just gotten so, so upset, like really upset. And Sydney was like, you know, “It’s going to be okay.” And I was like really pissed at him and I’m like “No, it’s not going to be okay,” like. You know, I mean he asked me if I checked all these really, really impossible locations for it to be, and okay, of course it wasn’t there. I think I lost it like we drove home from Chicago yesterday, and I think I left it at the restaurant, and I like called the restaurant and they didn’t find it. But I was like like it was lost by the time we got home. And I was wearing it in the car, and I was wearing it to the restaurant, and I don’t think I was wearing it after the restaurant, so now it’s gone forever. [00:01:17]

THERAPIST: Um-hmm. So you’re mad at yourself for losing it, and you were sad because it was something you worked on.

CLIENT: And I was mad at Sydney because I felt like he was like “No, calm down,” and I’m like and he was like trivializing my emotions and…

THERAPIST: So which piece feels like an overreaction?

CLIENT: The part where I was like crying about it and upset for like several hours.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm. What do you think what would crying and upset be an appropriate reaction to for that amount of time?

CLIENT: Something that was like worse consequences, I guess?

THERAPIST: Yeah. So kind of keeping it in perspective, I think. Because I think the feelings makes sense; the being sad, being angry at yourself for not checking to see if you had it whenever you were leaving. I think those feelings make sense, but you’re right, the intensity feels out of proportion for a scarf, even a scarf you made. [00:02:18]

CLIENT: But it was just because I had no other winter scarves anymore and like you know, like the really light cashmere one that Sydney’s parents got me for Christmas, but like I mean and I think that, granted, it’s like probably the end of winter and I probably won’t need it anymore until next winter, but still like… And I guess I just felt like, you know because it’s silly. I knit people things all the time, and like I just you know, like for like edifications and stuff and like when we were feeling bad and going through tough times, and it was just like I wish that someone would like knit something for me this time because like…

THERAPIST: Yeah. Well, so I wonder if that’s part of why the reaction was so intense, because it wasn’t just about the physical scarf. Now it sounds like it got connected to this idea of feeling like your relationships aren’t reciprocal? [00:03:08]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Aww. And that might be something worth being upset about for a few hours. And how did one come about the other?

CLIENT: Just because Bill was like offering like because Sydney really said he was thinking about getting me a scarf, or a scarf implement (ph), but he wanted to wait until I knew it was lost for sure and I think… Well, he told me that today; like that he gets annoyed when I, you know, get upset about these things and like expect him to make it better, but like I wanted to want it to get better and… (Sniffle sound)

THERAPIST: Yeah.

(Pause 00:03:48 to 00:04:02)

CLIENT: And then I had to give a rehearsal (inaudible at 00:04:04); I was like still upset about it after rehearsal, and I felt like naked without my scarf because it actually was cold enough that I like I could have used it probably. But… I just feel like my whole life is falling apart and I can’t deal with like even losing a scarf now. And it was fine when I lost the hat, but for some reason I wasn’t fine when I lost the scarf. [00:04:36]

(Crying sound)

THERAPIST: Well, so things I just heard you say, “I feel like my whole life is falling apart.” That’s very different than “I feel like I lost my scarf.” You did lose your scarf, but your whole life is falling apart, that’s a much different statement.

CLIENT: I don’t know. I’ve just been thinking of that really, you know, in the past hour or so.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm. Where is that thought coming from? [00:05:04]

CLIENT: The fact that I don’t have a job and, you know, if God already knows. I think at this point I’ve heard back from everything that I’ve applied to though, like, and not a single interview for that job is… It’s not that I haven’t applied for anything for the past, like, couple of weeks, because I’ve just been so unmotivated. And like now I’m thinking that I’m probably getting a kid in, because like one of the ones that we were babysitting for… And I’m like wondering if it’s not a I mean maybe it will be a good idea, maybe it will be a bad idea. I mean I don’t want to… And I’m just like what if I like fail at being able to take care of him and…

THERAPIST: I think you’re jumping from one thing to the next. You went from “My life is falling apart” to “I haven’t applied to jobs” to thinking about getting a kid. How are you going from one thing to the next in your head? [00:06:04]

CLIENT: Well, in terms of like my apartment is messy and I believe I haven’t dealt with a bunch of boxes and I feel like I need to deal with them before I get they get… But like they’re going to be staying either sometime this week or next week, so like really soon.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: And just, you know…

THERAPIST: So I think this is actually part of the pattern that leads to having really strong reactions that feel sometimes out of proportion with the trigger, because you connect things in a way that lumps everything all together, right? So there are a couple of things that you’re consistently feeling pretty unhappy about: The state of your apartment, feeling pressure and panic about a job, the job search, and whether or not you can hold down a job. Those are big things looming and I think impact how competent you feel all of the time. And when other incidents like losing a scarf or, you know, getting you know, some sort of challenge with the car, when those get mapped onto things that have to do with the apartment or finances, then you end up having a reaction about, I don’t know, everything lumped together and it’s really hard to process everything. It’s hard to tolerate the distress of the really big life questions every time something specific happens. Instead of ending up dealing with the problem at hand, you end up dealing with everything. [00:07:51]

CLIENT: Um-hmm. And then I don’t think that I was thinking about all of those things yesterday. I mean I’ve been thinking about them today, but yesterday I thought I was really only thinking about the scarf slash (ph) and I guess friendships not being reciprocal, but it started with the scarf. [00:08:08]

THERAPIST: Yeah, and it does, yeah. It starts with the kind of specific trigger, like realizing that you lost the scarf.

CLIENT: It’s like feeling like Sydney was telling me I was overreacting, like, (inaudible at 00:08:21) because that’s all he like he like doesn’t really make things that often and, ever, like. I don’t know that he’s ever lost something that he like spent lots of time making and…

THERAPIST: So one part of you agrees with him that you were overreacting, and then another part feels really angry that he said that.

CLIENT: Yeah.

(Pause 00:08:38 to 00:08:48)

THERAPIST: What did you want him to say?

(Pause 00:08:50 to 00:08:59)

CLIENT: I don’t know. About what he did say. I’m not sure what he could have said to me at the end. [00:09:07]

(Sniffling sound)

CLIENT: All of this…

THERAPIST: Your overreacting, whether or not it feels partly true, definitely feels critical, judgmental.

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: And I know we had some e-mails back and forth about couples therapy, and I think that would really be a place to work on how you guys talk to one another and maybe some strategies for handling times when you are having a strong emotional reaction to something.

CLIENT: Um-hmm. (Crosstalk)

THERAPIST: And when he is having a strong reaction, emotional reaction, to something, and it goes both ways.

CLIENT: Now, see just I get mad when he like says things will be okay when he doesn’t actually know things will be okay.

THERAPIST: Well, what would not be okay about losing the scarf? [00:10:01]

CLIENT: The fact that I don’t have a new one, and the fact that it took me forever to make it, and the fact that I didn’t have that yarn anymore and I couldn’t replace it with anything like it; like it wasn’t going to be easy to replace. Like he’s just going to get me a new scarf but it’s not…

THERAPIST: Not going to be the same, right.

CLIENT: Or even close to that.

THERAPIST: And so in your mind does okay exact replacement? Is it okay? Is it really -

CLIENT: Replacement as nice as the one I have. Maybe not exact, but like something comparably nice, which you can’t just like buy at a regular store (sniffling sound). And like I found something nice-ish online, but it wasn’t like as good as my scarf. I’m just feeling like all that work had been (inaudible at 00:10:57).

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. It sounds like you really wanted him to empathize with the work, the feeling of loss, whereas okay for him might mean, yeah, life will go on.

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: It’s a really vague term. And because you were sad, it didn’t feel okay at all. [00:11:23]

CLIENT: Yeah. (Sniffling sound). Yeah, but he says like other things a lot like now, earlier like, you know… I forgot what it was that he said; then I just got upset because I’m like “You’re just saying that. You don’t actually know that.” But like… I forgot (ph) why I was saying that and really saying that. I don’t usually lose things. and I usually take good care of scarves, and I’m like “How do you even know that” like? I’ve lost things before, and the fact that I lost the scarf that this was originally based on, and that one was only after having it for a brief time, like maybe a couple of months... I lost it in a bookstore in Stamford, like right before I was going to Israel. Like my first year of (inaudible at 00:12:26) and I just lost it and… [00:12:31]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Well, people lose things.

CLIENT: Yeah, but they like don’t lose like lots of people manage to not lose like really important things, like their wallet and stuff. And this was something really important that I just feel so inadequate because I can’t even like keep track of it and just so maybe I don’t deserve to have nice things because I can’t I lose them. (Sniffling sound)

(Pause 00:12:56 to 00:13:06)

THERAPIST: A pretty extreme response.

CLIENT: But I lose things (sniffling sound).

THERAPIST: Yes, people lose things, including you. [00:13:20]

CLIENT: And especially like if I’m not even the one paying for them and like I should at least be good enough to not lose it. I mean I guess like the thing was I was really overtired. Like we were driving for four hours, and like I hadn’t got that much sleep the night before and…

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah, so there’s some reasons why you may have not been as careful, as aware as you are on a day when you’ve had adequate sleep, aren’t feeling really tired…

CLIENT: Um-hmm.

THERAPIST: Or in a really familiar environment. Sometimes when we’re doing something out of our routine it’s easier to lose track of details.

CLIENT: Uh-huh. Still, I shouldn’t have lost it. Like people do go away and like operate on less amounts of sleep and stuff and manage to not lose everything. [00:14:08]

THERAPIST: Lose everything? Did you lose everything?

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:14:13).

THERAPIST: Ah. So then -

CLIENT: (Crosstalk) not to lose anything.

THERAPIST: Ah, maybe sometimes, and there have probably been times when you’ve gone away and haven’t lost anything, and this wasn’t one of those times unfortunately. I think what’s important to notice and what gets you really upset and what escalates the feeling is when you move from what just happened to globalizing it, right? So what just happened is, this past weekend you left your scarf behind someplace, maybe a restaurant, to globalize that, to you lose everything, you’re not deserving. That makes it that changes the reality, right? You’re…

(Pause 00:15:06 to 00:15:12)

CLIENT: No, I’ve lost some very expensive things before, like I’ve lost my wallet. I’ve lost a pair of glasses that I had just gotten.

THERAPIST: I mean that sounds really upsetting.

CLIENT: It was like a couple hundred dollars. And, I don’t know, I have been good about not losing this lately, and then this happened.

THERAPIST: And you had this accident. Yeah, it’s really upsetting when you lose track of things.

CLIENT: And I just feel so stupid for having lost it. You know, if I had been smarter, then I wouldn’t have lost it.

THERAPIST: Yeah. There’s a big difference between maybe being careless and being stupid. Listen to the language you’re using; it’s really hurtful language. If you called you know, if you called somebody else those names, I would say that was really inappropriate. It’s also not okay for you to call yourself those names; it’s inappropriate. [00:16:08]

CLIENT: Um-hmm.

THERAPIST: Judge the behavior, not the person. All right, so maybe you were careless, but not undeserving or stupid.

(Pause 00:16:20 to 00:16:28)

CLIENT: (Sigh) But [how do you tell?] (ph)

THERAPIST: I respectfully disagree and think that that type of thinking is damaging to you.

CLIENT: But it’s the way I think. I can’t just magically stop thinking that way.

THERAPIST: No, not magically, but you can train yourself to think in a way that is healthier for you.

CLIENT: So when have I ever been able to like treat myself to think anything, like ever? Like when have I successfully been able to change the way I think, like? [00:17:04]

THERAPIST: You haven’t yet, but that doesn’t mean you’re not capable of it. You’ve never really been onboard to try.

CLIENT: I just hope that I’m capable of controlling my emotions the same way that other people are.

THERAPIST: No, I don’t think you’re capable of controlling your emotions, but I do think you’re capable of controlling intentional thought; there’s a difference. I’m not asking you to control your feelings, I’m asking you to listen to the language that you use to speak to yourself and choose your words intentionally, which then, in turn, impacts how you feel. You do have control over what words you choose to use. You have never spoken to me in the way that you speak to yourself. You have never, certainly, out loud. How come it’s okay for you? I mean you wouldn’t come in here and say “Dr. Hallingford (sp?), you’re being really stupid,” but you say that to yourself. And I think you do have control over the words you use, because I hear you talk to me in a different way. [00:18:09]

CLIENT: I guess with everybody else in the world that I’m not around them all the time and and I’m around myself all the time, and I can only like be controlled for like so long before I go crazy. I think that I don’t really usually have like such harsh thoughts about other people for any reason like enough to enough to do something really like upsetting for me to like start really thinking of terrible things about them.

THERAPIST: I’d like for you to give yourself the same respect.

CLIENT: But I did something upsetting. I lost my scarf.

THERAPIST: It is upsetting.

(Pause 00:18:48 to 00:19:12)

CLIENT: (Sniffling sound)

THERAPIST: What you’re doing is something called personalization, and it’s kind of a speech technique or a thought pattern where you mistakenly ascribe a label to yourself based on behavior, or a kind of creating an enduring pattern out of a single incident. So it’s a rather common way that people do this, right? So yeah, you lost a scarf. You left something behind. You’ve left other things behind. And instead of keeping the description in your head, whereas you talk to yourself about that behavior, you’re labeling yourself as a person, and that has a very different impact. You know, if you talk about yourself as like “I made a mistake, you know, I miscalculated a number,” that’s very different than saying to yourself “I’m an idiot and I can never do math.” It feels very different. [00:20:13]

Here’s a personal example. Last night I was rechecking my taxes.

CLIENT: Um-hmm.

THERAPIST: And I noticed that in my Excel spreadsheet I had written the equation wrong, so I was calculating including a cell twice in the final equation.

CLIENT: Oh.

THERAPIST: Big difference.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Now, this is, granted, big mistake. I had to fix it. I had to go back and tell the accountant that my numbers were off because I had entered the equation wrong. I felt badly about the mistake, but I felt silly about it, should have checked it before I originally sent the numbers to the accountant. It would have been a good thing to double-check first, these were mistakes, but I don’t think I’m an incompetent idiot; I do plenty of other things correctly. And yes, it was a mistake, but if I had spent the night thinking that I’m completely incompetent and I’m an idiot and I can never do anything right, I would have been a lot more upset, and it wouldn’t have done any good, right? It wouldn’t have me feeling that badly, talking to myself that way, wouldn’t have fixed the error, and it wouldn’t necessarily prevent me from making an error that I’m going to make in the future someday. I think that’s the difference. [00:21:19]

And I also want you to kind of practice, because people make mistakes. We’re always going to make mistakes. We’re not going to be perfect in all the areas of our lives ever; nobody is. And we don’t necessarily need to feel so badly about it if that’s not especially when that’s not going to prevent a future mistake. Thinking about, okay, so you were careless, you didn’t double-check to make sure you had all your belongings before you moved on to the next location, keeping that in mind, can actually help next time. I’m pretty sure that next time I talk to my accountant I’m going to double-check those equations. And remembering that can help me do a better job next time without making me feel horrible, and that’s what I wish for you. [00:22:10]

CLIENT: Then you can make the mistake once and not make it again and like -

THERAPIST: No, I’m sure I’m going to make mistakes again in my life, Georgia.

CLIENT: But they’ll probably be different mistakes.

THERAPIST: Maybe.

CLIENT: Whereas like losing things, like, you know, like I do go through a phase where I’m really careful about checking my belongings, but it only lasts so long, because if it works then I would have never lost anything after I’ve lost something the first time and that’s obviously…

THERAPIST: But that’s pretty unrealistic to expect that there’s going to be perfection at some point. I’m going to make math mistakes again, of course I am. I’m hopefully a lot longer to be living and working. You know, maybe I’ll and hopefully I will be a little bit more careful in the future, but I’m never going to prevent a hundred mistakes on my own part, and neither are you.

CLIENT: But you’ll probably prevent like you said you left mistakes to somebody else before double-checking it and looking at your… [00:23:04]

THERAPIST: I don’t know. I’m willing to work towards it, but I don’t know.

CLIENT: Maybe (inaudible at 00:23:14) because after this mistake, before it feels even worse. And it’s like I feel like nothing will ever make me like be able to like never lose a belonging again, and that’s what I want and it won’t happen. (Sighing sound).

THERAPIST: Ah. So that, what you just said, yeah, there is nothing that’s going to make you never leave behind a belonging again, and that’s what you want, and that expectation -

CLIENT: But (crosstalk) because I can’t like other people. There are people who never leave behind a belonging and why can’t I be like one of those?

THERAPIST: Who was that? Who has never left behind something or never will? Do you know that person?

CLIENT: I don’t know anybody specific, but like it’s not like…

THERAPIST: I don’t think they exist, Georgia, I really don’t.

CLIENT: I mean I have lots of friends, and like lots of them have never told me about leaving something behind. So it’s possible that somewhere at least one of them has like never lost something before, or like (inaudible at 00:24:10) at least.

THERAPIST: Maybe, but anything never always ever again feels pretty unlikely to me.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: Those absolutes just feel really unlikely. Maybe not impossible, but having reasonable expectations for yourself is part of being able to be accepting of yourself, and expecting perfection in any area from here on out feels a little unreasonable. I think it feels like you’re setting yourself up for failure. [00:25:00]

CLIENT: But it’s like not losing I mean behind something like not people.

THERAPIST: It’s something to work toward. Finding a way to set yourself up for a success; you know, what might help you to be more careful. To set up a routine for checking things that you might be able to sustain for a longer period of time; that’s something worth working toward. But I think if the expectation that there’s going to be perfection even in one area, like never, ever losing anything…

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: That just feels like too high of a goal to expect.

CLIENT: But I don’t think that’s (inaudible at 00:25:46). Now I’m like what happens if I make another scarf and I lose it again, like?

THERAPIST: You’ll be sad.

CLIENT: I will have wasted all this time and effort again.

THERAPIST: Um-umm (ph).

CLIENT: I don’t want that to happen. [00:26:03]

THERAPIST: I can understand that. You know, I feel like your time and effort is waste -

CLIENT: Well, if the only way to prevent losing a scarf like that is to never wear a scarf ever again.

THERAPIST: And that doesn’t feel good either, to deny yourself that.

CLIENT: But if I feel it’s necessary…

THERAPIST: And you want to punish yourself.

CLIENT: Yes. I deserve it. I’ve lost a scarf and I don’t deserve scarves. If I lose scarves, I don’t deserve them.

THERAPIST: Is that a message you’ve heard from other people?

CLIENT: (Sigh). (Pause 00:26:39 to 00:26:47). I wouldn’t know this (inaudible at 00:26:49) the answer. I don’t know.

THERAPIST: Yeah. That’s a line I can imagine a parent saying when they’re angry.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And I think that sentence can make sense to me if you were intentional. [00:27:04]

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Again, I imagine saying something similar to my kid if I saw them intentionally break a toy.

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: “If you’re going to be disrespectful to your stuff, then maybe you don’t deserve to have nice stuff.” But you weren’t intentional. You didn’t take your scarf and shred it to bits because you were angry and therefore maybe don’t you know, couldn’t be trusted with a nice thing. But you had no intention to leave it behind. You weren’t trying to be disrespectful to your own hard work of making something. You intended to wear it, to use it, to have it back home with you again, and to be punished for something that you’re sad about losing feels unfair.

CLIENT: And I feel like careless about losing things all the time. Like you know, like I would -

THERAPIST: All the time.

CLIENT: Well, no, let me finish my thought.

THERAPIST: I apologize for that.

CLIENT: If someone was careless and lost things, you know, on a regular basis, like, you know, like if they’re a friend of mine or something, yet I knew that about them, I probably wouldn’t have them knit them anything. I wouldn’t say “Oh, you never deserve a scarf,” but I would not give them a handmade scarf from me. [00:28:18]

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: Because then they’d probably just lose it.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm, um-hmm.

CLIENT: So then -

THERAPIST: So I guess the threshold of what is that all the time or regular basis?

CLIENT: I don’t know. But like I feel like having something only for a few months and losing it might be like beyond the threshold of acceptable losing things and…

THERAPIST: So I guess that’s what we need to figure out is what’s the reasonable expectation? What’s the acceptable amount of leaving things behind, for yourself? I mean this is setting up your own limit. What do you need to do to earn back your trust? [00:29:03]

CLIENT: Well, I feel like really sad if I always like wear like (inaudible at 00:29:08) garments (ph) from like stores and stuff. Like for the rest of my life it would be very, very silly to like never knit myself a scarf again if I could knit myself a nice scarf that I enjoy wearing more than a Billal scarf.

THERAPIST: Yeah. It would be silly to kind of miss out on, you know, the benefit from your own talent. It’s your time; you’re investing in it. Maybe you’re worth the risk. There is a level of risk that you will lose something again because I think that’s the the number of lost items. And even if you just go walk from here to wherever you’ve parked your car, it’s very likely you’ll spy a lost glove or something along the way. I know I’ve certainly seen that. [00:30:01]

CLIENT: Usually they’re like not hand-knit. Like the majority of clothes and stuff that people wear are made by like machines and bought at stores. [00:30:07]

THERAPIST: Right, so you’re more likely to see one of those because that is what the majority of people are wearing. However, you have the ability to knit yourself your own stuff. So if you lose something it’s more likely to be that. But if we just canvass the neighborhood, most people are buying store-bought stuff.

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: It’s more likely they’re going to lose that. And it feels like a bigger loss when it’s something that’s personal, your time went into, higher quality.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I can understand your disappointment and your anger at yourself.

(Pause 00:30:42 to 00:30:54)

CLIENT: Yeah. Well, no, I… (Pause 00:30:58 to 00:31:10) (Sniffling sound). It feels like there’s no good answer.

THERAPIST: So what if we made the good answer the one that creates better mental health for you?

CLIENT: Okay, then what would that answer be?

THERAPIST: What feels best for you? What answer feels best? We don’t have to stick with that, but let’s just experiment.

CLIENT: Just giving myself a pass on the scarf, but I don’t know how to do that.

THERAPIST: Forgive yourself.

CLIENT: But I’m still mad like, you know, when you want the when you’re, like, trying to forgive someone before you’re ready to forgive them, it like usually doesn’t work, like, you know.

THERAPIST: Yeah. So maybe you’re not ready. Can you be mad at yourself and like yourself at the same time? [00:32:09]

CLIENT: I don’t think so.

THERAPIST: So for you, being angry and disliking are the same?

CLIENT: Like… Maybe I… (inaudible at 00:32:25) I wouldn’t hold like get angry at other people that often, so it’s harder to… Lately when I have gotten angry at Sydney, I’ve gotten into, at one point, disliking him, too.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: I think when I do get angry I at least temporarily lose my ability to like someone.

THERAPIST: Umm.

CLIENT: Depending on how angry I am about this.

THERAPIST: You’re angry enough right now at yourself to not like yourself at all.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean it didn’t help that I wasn’t really liking myself before this either. [00:33:02]

THERAPIST: Yeah. When was the last time you liked yourself?

CLIENT: Probably many, many years ago. I just feel so you know, like the weight issue. And even though I tried to get into dancing, like I’d gone through a doctor the last two weeks with like (inaudible at 00:33:20) like. They close early (inaudible at 00:33:26). I feel like I’m really gross right now and…

THERAPIST: Yeah, so that liking yourself question is kind of unfair, because it sounds like you don’t really even when you’re not really mad at yourself about a particular thing, you’re not being very you’re not finding yourself really likable.

CLIENT: Yeah. (Sniffling sound).

(Pause 00:33:53 to 00:34:09)

THERAPIST: Well, I wonder if being a forgiving person could be something you could find likable about yourself and start from there.

CLIENT: That would require being a forgiving person, you know, in the first place, and if that’s not what I am, then, like…

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah, and it would require starting that.

CLIENT: Like how do you just become a forgiving person? Like it’s not something you can just become. Like I feel like either you’re forgiving or you’re not and…

THERAPIST: What do you think that… I mean you used words, sort of giving yourself “a pass” on this one. Can you do that? Could you forgive yourself this particular mishap?

CLIENT: Yeah, I guess, if I just take into account the whole being really, really tired and stuff.

THERAPIST: Maybe that’s a place to start. So taking into account the circumstances, right? There are extenuating circumstances here that made you vulnerable to leaving something behind. [00:35:09]

(Pause 00:35:09 to 00:35:26)

CLIENT: (Sniffling sound). Well, I think being forgiving would be enough to make myself actually like myself though.

THERAPIST: Not enough?

CLIENT: No. Because it’s really like forgiving and like otherwise a jerk or something. Like that doesn’t make someone likable. I think you have to take into account the whole person.

THERAPIST: Are there other likable things about you?

CLIENT: Not really. I hate the way I look, and I hate the fact that I don’t have a job right now. And I feel like, you know, that I’m not smart enough to get a job or like you know, smart in whatever sets of like the type of skills you need to get a job; like I don’t have them, because otherwise I’d have a job right now and… [00:36:17]

THERAPIST: What skills do you feel like you’re lacking?

CLIENT: I guess the ability to write a good cover letter and the ability to have work, or like having enough work that… (Sniffling sound)

(Pause 00:36:27 to 00:36:38)

CLIENT: And I feel like I’ve exhausted the resources if I’m ever going to… And I don’t really have anything that… Like I’m almost 30 and I’ve never had a real job with like benefits and full-time hours, like, ever. (Sigh) Like the highest amount of money I’ve ever made for like a job is like $15 an hour, and the last time I was making $15 an hour was the summer after college, but it teaching (inaudible at 00:37:10) for like, you know, like maybe 12 hours a week or whatever it was. That’s the last time I’ve made $15 an hour, and ever since then anything (inaudible at 00:37:22) busted that. And I’ve only had like one other job, and I feel like it was basically really an internship with money attached to it and think I’ve never had an actual, like, position of responsibility and permanence and…

THERAPIST: And you’re using that to measure your worth as a person?

CLIENT: Yeah. Because if I were a better person I would have been able to get a job right now. Because like, you know, what other person like through (ph) has two fucking Ivy League degrees, like, can’t get a job, like. And it’s been only none of my friends from Harvard like aren’t out of a job, like. You know, I think they all at this point thinking or either they’re like, you know, in the different baccalaureate (ph) program right now or they have a job, like, or they at least have a job or something, like. I am about succeeding at the level that most people from the schools that I’ve been to have would be succeeding at. [00:38:33]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like they’re all better than me.

(Pause 00:38:35 to 00:38:53)

CLIENT: (Blowing nose).

THERAPIST: So other people have been more successful in translating their degrees into work.

CLIENT: Uh-huh, but that’s like where it matters. Like, you know, you could be as smart as whatever, but if that doesn’t give you the work then that’s not going to be worth anything until I have the spark that I lost in, like, elementary school through high school. And it was like, you know, the kind of spark that brought me into these schools in the first place, like, is absolutely worthless to me now because it doesn’t translate into anything in the real world, and I don’t even know why that kind of smart is even valued that it like, you know… Why would they put me in a dance class and then, like, you know, give me good grades and stuff when apparently this is all just like, you know, constructed (ph) nonsense that doesn’t translate to real-life skills. [00:39:56]

THERAPIST: Well, I don’t think it necessarily it’s not either/or. So there may be some skills that you, you know, weren’t something that was measured in school that you need to work on, right? The networking stuff you need to work on. That’s part of how you get a job in order to use the knowledge that you did learn in school, but it’s not that you can only have one or the other. [00:40:29]

CLIENT: I mean anything else that happened, like I just still don’t understand why people praised me for being smart when it wasn’t worth anything. Like where did that kind of smart matter? Like, you know, I feel like the process of get a degree, anyone can apparently you know, what they have to try to feel to do their job. Like I don’t feel like I’m good at anything valuable. [00:41:10]

THERAPIST: A rough feeling to carry around.

CLIENT: But I don’t have a feeling I’m smart anymore; like I’m not. There’s like nothing and that’s silly. When Sydney tells me that I’m smart, like I feel so empty, because it’s not like he’s basing in on anything. He doesn’t know I’m smart. It’s not like he’s ever even like read any of the essays that I did write for like my schools or anything, so he doesn’t actually know that I’m smart. Like there’s no way for him to actually know that. I just happen to know like basic facts of like, you know.

THERAPIST: But he believes it.

CLIENT: For no good reason. Like, you know, when filtering (ph) for each other, I like thought, okay, keep it there are questions like, you know, which is bigger, the earth or the sun, that, like you know, clearly I was able to answer correctly and he was able to answer correctly, but I think that’s just filtering out excessive stupidity and not… You know, but it doesn’t take someone being smart to know that the sun is bigger than the earth, you know, or… [00:42:16]

THERAPIST: Well, it takes somebody who had to learn something about the solar system. But you’re right, that, you know, I guess that kind of information isn’t feeling very meaningful to you right now.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And you have that information. You are good at retaining facts. That was useful in a lot of contexts; it’s not feeling useful right now.

(Pause 00:42:38 to 00:42:48)

THERAPIST: And maybe right now some of the social skills or kind of interpersonal dynamics that might be useful in networking or in contacting people, interviewing, are feeling like they’re working for you and you haven’t had enough practice at those or you’re not getting enough opportunity to work them, to train, and to getting a job. So those are some of the things that you do need in addition to the knowledge that you may have learned in school. [00:43:18]

CLIENT: Well, this culture of getting into the (inaudible at 00:43:22) and getting a job are so, so different from each other.

THERAPIST: They can be. But like you said, you haven’t actually applied for anything in the past couple of weeks, so you’re not even so that’s not not being good at something; that’s not doing something.

CLIENT: Well, except for all those e-mails that I’m getting been getting in the past couple of weeks that…

THERAPIST: Were from before.

CLIENT: Yeah. They told me that I didn’t get an interview or anything and like gave the job to someone else.

THERAPIST: Those are really hard to get those and keep trying.

(Pause 00:43:59 to 00:44:13)

CLIENT: I just feel so worthless.

THERAPIST: And I’m sorry you’re feeling this way.

CLIENT: Well, [I’m not] (ph) like a nice person or anything else, like. There is nothing likable about me. You could make comparisons and like, you know, I’m not like the worst person ever, and like that doesn’t make someone good, like. You know, you don’t get points for like not being Hitler; like that’s sort of expected.

THERAPIST: Umm.

CLIENT: You know? (Chuckling)

THERAPIST: Yeah. I’d say it’s far from Hitler.

CLIENT: Most people don’t commit genocide and -

THERAPIST: That is true. Most people don’t.

CLIENT: So…

THERAPIST: Thank goodness you’re not one of the few that did. [00:45:02]

CLIENT: So I don’t really have anything to put words into at this point, like. I’m not good at anything valuable.

THERAPIST: What do you want to be good at?

CLIENT: I don’t know.

(Pause 00:45:27 to 00:45:37)

CLIENT: (Crying). I don’t even know. Like all I want to be is not overweight anymore.

THERAPIST: So as a place to start, doing the things that you have control over, use some of the things that you’ve talked about today. Your skill in knitting; you’re not the only person that has that skill, but it is a valuable skill. Like you said, you know, your scarf was so much nicer than what most people have because of a skill that you’ve cultivated, the time that you’re willing to put into something. That, that’s something you have control over, and it is a nice skill that you have. So maybe spending some time…

You know, I know a couple of weeks ago you mentioned getting together with someone and doing a knitting circle and knitting together with a friend, you know. You’re in a pretty low place right now. Doing something simple like that, a way to reconnect with someone and to reconnect with a skill that you do have, that is part of what makes you a unique and a valuable person. So doing something active to take advantage of the skill you have, and doing something active to work toward a goal you have, being in better physical shape. Let’s focus on the doable things right now. [00:47:14]

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Because, you know, if you can just think about putting a small chunk of energy into those two things each day and start to work yourself kind of out of this feeling of hopelessness and helplessness that you’re in… And I’d like to help you build on those, and it feels like you have more to hang onto, but that’s a place to start. Two very identifiable steps you can take. Can you work on those this week for me until I see you next?

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Does that feel reasonable? I don’t want to put too much on your plate, but I do want to put you in charge of something.

CLIENT: I did take the stairs today. [00:48:01]

THERAPIST: Excellent.

CLIENT: I decided to walk to the subway rather than drive.

THERAPIST: Yeah, so you’re already doing it before I even gave you an assignment.

CLIENT: And I’m supposed to be getting together with a friend tomorrow to knit, but I have to double-check if that’s happening.

THERAPIST: Okay. And if that if that friend can’t get together, I’d like you to take your knitting needles and do some anyway.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I think it would be great to get together with a friend to do it. If that friend needs to cancel or reschedule, commit to yourself that you’ll take out your needles and do some.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Because you’re that, and you have complete control over it. And it is you know, that’s a pretty special talent you have.

CLIENT: I feel like there are at least like a million other knitters in the world.

THERAPIST: And there are also many more that can’t.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: You’re right. Just because you’re not the only person to do it doesn’t mean that it’s not, you know, a valuable talent. [00:49:00]

CLIENT: I guess.

THERAPIST: So why don’t we stop for today?

CLIENT: Next week is at 11:00, or 11:30? Because I put in my phone it was 11:30, but I wasn’t sure if that was correct.

THERAPIST: Eleven thirty on Tuesday.

CLIENT: Okay, then it is correct.

THERAPIST: So I will see you then. I think I do actually have a bill for you today, too.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Yes. This is yours. [00:49:35]

END TRANSCRIPT