TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: So where do we start today?

CLIENT: So I did actually, I finally talked to my mom yesterday and if I can get a temp job, if I get something that’s 40 hours a week even if it’s paying $10 an hour they’d be okay with me making $600 or $800 a month and paying the $400.

THERAPIST: Okay so how do you feel about that response?

CLIENT: A lot better because now it’s actually something achievable and not just you need a permanent thing. As long as I can stay and work -

THERAPIST: And did you talk to the temp agency guy?

CLIENT: Yes, I’ve talked to temp agencies as I had submitted before. So I met with one of them on Thursday and the guy seemed very intense. And apparently they have a very small pool. They don’t call people in unless they think they can place them. And the other thing is once you say you’re ready to work he expects you to be ready to work even the morning of, which I’m thinking this is kind of scary. The day before I understand. [00:01:17]

THERAPIST: That felt like too much of a commitment for you?

CLIENT: Yes. I mean I’m okay with getting something and saying okay this is a two-months thing, come in every day. Just I guess I just want to live as though I have something and therefore can’t schedule appointments during the daytime anymore. So I told him I’d be able to start this coming Thursday since I have appointments well today, tomorrow and Wednesday.

THERAPIST: Or you just know that you might need to cancel things.

CLIENT: Yes. Well the other problem is just I have one professional [inaudible at 00:02:04] right now that fits, for certain definitions it fits and it doesn’t even fit that well. It’s the one that I use when I talk to the temp agency people. I went to Macys today since the other place I talked to they only have sporadic temp work so the woman there said yes you should be with multiple agencies. So I think I’m more likely to get placed by the first place. But when I went afterwards, Macys was at the downtown crossing station, and I found a suit that fits. [00:02:40]

THERAPIST: And do you need a suit?

CLIENT: I need a suit for interviews; I don’t need a suit for temp stuff. But I’m hoping that if I apply enough I think I’ll at least get some interviews. I still have to get it tailored. But then an hour of looking after I found the suit and I could not find a single shirt that was business casual looking. They were all looking like okay we’re going on summer vacation or going clubbing or I guess those would be the two extremes but I couldn’t find anything. There were ones that might have worked but then they had tank top sleeves and I thought that’s not very professional looking.

And I’ve already on Wednesday I went searching the second hand store and couldn’t find anything. And then went to The Gap and couldn’t find anything and now I’m just I found a shirt on Amazon that I think will work that comes in multiple colors so I ordered on to see if it’ll fit but I have to wait until I ordered it on Sunday and I’ll get it on Tuesday and then I’ll have two shirts if it does fit. [00:03:52]

But I’m thinking how the hell am I going to get myself professionally attired? And I really don’t think I’m that picky in terms of style. They just all didn’t seem like something that would fit in a business environment. I don’t know where to get those types of clothes especially since now I’m a shirt size larger, extra large and, yes. [00:04:22]

THERAPIST: Yes it could be tricky to find a store that meets your needs.

CLIENT: Yes. I guess I could always try Target and tomorrow the only thing I have on is the we have couples counseling at 10:00 in the morning. Yes, I can’t start working until I have things that I can wear to work. And I’m just really frustrated that this is as hard as they’re making it out to be. Do they just not expect women to work in the fashion industry? They say oh they’re clearly all supported by their husbands and go out all the time and party and therefore don’t need business-looking clothes? [00:05:06]

THERAPIST: I doubt that that’s the case. There’s plenty of women working and wearing clothes as they do it. But it might be that you’re having trouble finding the right style for you that feels comfortable and fits in where you’re looking. Have you talked to some friends? Where do they shop? Does anybody work in an office setting?

CLIENT: I don’t know and they’re, most of my friends would be a lot smaller than me and I’m larger size so I haven’t I guess I could ask. I don’t even know what size I am any more.

THERAPIST: Oh. So maybe that’s the place to start is to honestly go and figure out what size really fits you.

CLIENT: Yes. I mean if I had found things that looked like they would plausibly worked I would have tried them on like I did with the suit. And I’m really confused now because the pants that I got for the suit, I figured the pants that I used to wear around most of the time were size 16 and they were getting very tight and stuff. So I assumed that when I gained all the weight I was probably sized 20 or something or 22. [00:06:19]

And I tried on a 22 and it was super big. And I said okay let me try an 18 and the 18 fit. So I think okay does that make me a size 18? And the shirt, the top, the blazer part of the suit was a 14. Am I large and not an extra large but my business shirt that I wore this morning and changed out of was a large. It was not sitting properly and so I thought maybe I am an extra large.

THERAPIST: Well different you may not be exactly the same size for tops as bottoms.

CLIENT: Well [inaudible at 00:06:55] knows.

THERAPIST: Human beings are not necessarily uniform.

CLIENT: But it’s just -

THERAPIST: And different styles and different makers sizing is not necessarily consistent across brands. So it is, which I know might be frustrating but trying on lots of different things. And maybe looking at some of the stores that are more specifically geared towards larger sizes because you might find more variety there that feels comfortable for you. [00:07:22]

CLIENT: Yes. If I find a long shirt that fits and it comes in a bunch of colors, I just buy it in a bunch of colors.

THERAPIST: Yes, sure. That’s a great way to go.

CLIENT: That’s what I did with the last round of business casual clothes. But at least I have a suit now.

THERAPIST: Yes you made a good accomplishment.

CLIENT: Because I was afraid I was going to be a giant size or something or they weren’t going to have it. And then Macys has this size 14 to 24 section so I was able to find stuff in it.

THERAPIST: Yes. And so there may be other stores that have women’s sizing that is larger than the typical sizing. And even whole stores geared towards that. And having, being able to pick from a wider variety like that will make it a lot easier. [00:08:16]

CLIENT: Assuming they have any styles that are suitable in the first place because there were things at Macys that I think would’ve fit me but none of them looked like something I would want to wear to work in an office. I think the problem is right now the style that’s out is slouchy, which I feel like that’s not looking -

THERAPIST: Right, you want something more structured.

CLIENT: Yes and I’m really not picky about clothes. It’s just the problem is that I don’t like things that are, I don’t necessarily like things that are fashionable. And so every so often there is a time when whatever’s fashionable is something that’s reasonable and I would actually like and then the next year I can’t find anything. It’s the same thing with sweaters too for that matter. And I could knit myself sweaters but it would take forever. So I’m just hoping that my sweaters will still fit by the time I get to winter. [00:09:25]

THERAPIST: So just focus on getting clothing you feel comfortable in for summer first.

CLIENT: Yes. I’ll look online and see if there are any plus-sized stores nearby because, yes, I don’t know. I just feel so I got a weird vibe. When I was at the other staffing agency I was sort of thinking panic, panic, panic. I think maybe because the whole we can call, if I call you at 5:00 in the evening and say you have something on for tomorrow, if I don’t hear from you then you’re on. And okay I would obviously return that call though there might be a voice-mail at 5:30. Is that, him being right before he leaves the office and then I’d have to wait until next morning but [00:10:18]

I don’t know because he said, on the one hand he said well if something doesn’t feel like a good fit you don’t have to take it. But on the other hand he said well it really annoys me when I have four people who say they can work and then it turns out when I call them they’re not ready to work that day and stuff. And mixed messages and also sort of no appreciation for the fact that a lot of people who do temp work are also interviewing for permanent jobs and so you can’t miss any days.

And I mean obviously I wouldn’t miss lots of days but you can’t schedule all interview around business hours. You can get something really early in the morning or really late at night maybe but there does have to be some time off I guess just the rigidity of it. And the fact that they don’t seem to care that people are also trying to find full-time jobs which, it would make sense if you were at a full-time job but not expecting you to stay there. But if you are putting people in a job that you know is ending in three months or something, I don’t know. [00:11:32]

It was just really intense but I guess I’ll I’m supposed to call them on Wednesday to see if they have anything on Thursday. And there was also a full big problem with me getting my social security card because my passport expired in November. I never renewed it because at the time I was living in the house with the crazy people who were really bad at putting my mail in a place that I’d actually ever be able to find it. So I didn’t want to have it get sent to my place and it’d get lost. And so the stuff, I had filled out the paperwork and everything and that envelope is still at Sydney’s place but there’s no reason why I can’t do it now. [00:12:22]

I probably should; I just haven’t been at Sydney’s place so often and it hasn’t been a problem. But you need either your passport or social security card and driver’s license in order to prove that you’re a U.S. citizen. And so my social security card was at my parent’s house. And I called on Wednesday, which is when I had gotten the call from the first temp agency. And my mom was already in DC and [inaudible at 00:12:47] was on her way to Portland, so it was only my dad at home and he was at work. So when he, he was going to scan it for me but my dad really, really, really sucks at technology. [00:13:03]

And I knew that the scan would be enough for now but I needed the actual card and I told him to send me the card. He ended up not being able to get the scan and so he said he’d send it. I said send me the card. I’m 100% sure I said send me the card. And he sent, he said okay, I sent it; you’ll get it by Friday. It came on Saturday and then I opened it up and it was a scan of the card. So I was really, really mad. I mean I didn’t tell my dad that I was really, really mad but I was just really pissed and after all that.

And so I had to go down yesterday to get the stupid social security card. But now I have it. Why didn’t I sort of understand for tax purposes and stuff why you need to have all these things. I just don’t remember ever needing to bring my passport when I worked at the zoo. And I certainly didn’t need it when I was getting the grant funding. So maybe it’s a thing with the temp agencies but I didn’t realize it was this hard to start working. [00:14:18]

THERAPIST: Yes, sometimes some of the paperwork requirements and just policies can be frustrating to get through.

CLIENT: I don’t know, I’m just oh and the other thing about the temp agency is also so they, because they have the relationships with their clients they send people right out to a job and don’t do it, they choose first which means no interviews which means -

THERAPIST: You don’t get to stop by the place.

CLIENT: See the yes. So when I told them that I -

THERAPIST: It’s feeling a little out of your control.

CLIENT: Yes. I told them I preferred probably smaller jobs, a few days a week. If I can get enough of them that will line up one from another then if I’m in an office that’s really depressing and I know I’m only there for two weeks then that’s not really a problem. But yes there’s -

THERAPIST: So it seems like you’re seeming relieved on one hand because your parents are willing to continue to help you pay for the apartment if you get some temp work but anxious on another hand because [00:15:27]

CLIENT: Because I’m afraid that I’m going to be thrown into a horrible environment and not be able to get out. And I don’t want to burn bridges with other temp agencies too. And just I’m afraid that I’m going to fail and I don’t want to fail. I mean at least this time the jobs that they’d be throwing me into are administrative type, office assistant, receptionist things so I wouldn’t be doing data entry. But the environment was also a problem. [00:16:10]

And I’m afraid if I I guess I shouldn’t make that many plans based on whether or not I’m getting interviews but I’m afraid that I’ll take a two month or a three month position and then get an interview. And then if I need to finish up the three months and not be able to start the, be able to -

THERAPIST: Make decisions that work for you. Have you continued to look for permanent positions?

CLIENT: Yes. I applied to something yesterday and oh I actually found the perfect job. It was a zoo assistant at a zoo. And I meet almost all the requirements, including the background in archeology and anthropology, experience handling zoo objects, familiarity with the zoo which makes me think that possibly they have a candidate in mind already because how many other people would be familiar with it? So I don’t even know if I have a chance. [00:17:13]

But, so this time what I did was I wrote the cover letter and I actually gave it to Bridget to look at to make sure that it’s perfect because while it would’ve been really neat to get it in yesterday, well and they only posted it on Friday anyways. And but yes I’m not messing this one up. But I want to be confident in my work that I cannot have to wait.

THERAPIST: Having somebody else’s eyes on it is not a problem.

CLIENT: Yes, so I guess that now -

THERAPIST: Is there anybody you know there or can you personalize it at all?

CLIENT: I’m not sure who would I guess I could look up and see who I think is going to do the hiring, although it’s going to go through the Yale HR system first probably because right now I just have Dear Search Committee. [00:18:14]

THERAPIST: Yes but knowing who works there I mean just -

CLIENT: Because it’s the zoo proper. I only worked at the zoo but I do know some of the other people in other parts of the zoos. So maybe if Hailey Seymour is in charge of things and I’m not sure she is. She’s in charge of part of the zoo but I’m not sure if she does the hiring stuff and I don’t know who I’d be working with.

THERAPIST: Right but -

CLIENT: But she’s the person I know.

THERAPIST: If she’s the person you know and she’s connected to the zoo, I think part of networking is just sending her an e-mail and saying hey noticed that zoo’s hiring a zoo assistant. I’m excited to put my name in, grease the wheels.

CLIENT: But then am I asking her for anything or just telling her hey I’m applying? [00:19:18]

THERAPIST: Well I think in letting her know that you’re applying you obviously want the position; you’d be happy for any information she could provide. You can’t ask her hey can you put in, can you tell these people to hire me?

CLIENT: Yes I know.

THERAPIST: You can’t ask her that. But I think it’s somewhat self-evident that you would like some help if possible by letting her know that you’re applying and you have a relationship with her.

CLIENT: Except I’m not even sure if she remembers me at this point because last time I worked a lot of stuff with her was Spring 2009.

THERAPIST: Well you could remind her of that. Oh I know it’s been a while; we worked together in the spring of 2009. I noticed you’re still connected to the zoo. I’m excited to put my name in the ring for the position that’s open now. Thanks so much for your time. You’re just refreshing memory and personalizing if you can because the system is very impersonal. And if this is an important one, you taking that extra step of reaching out and reminding any connection you have that there is a positive connection, that you have this history. [00:20:40]

CLIENT: But I should frame it as an informational, saying hi and letting them know that I’m applying thing.

THERAPIST: Well I mean you might want to check go online, do a check I am not a career counselor so you can kind of look and see what are the best networking strategies when you have a past history with someone. Look for examples for what do people write on LinkedIn when they are trying to utilize connections. Maybe familiarize yourself with what the best ways are. But it does seem like if you have this connection, it’s a loose connection, you want to position yourself to use it as best you can. And I don’t know what the exact wording for that would be; that’s beyond my area of expertise. [00:21:31]

CLIENT: Well I wasn’t even thinking wording; I was just kind of thinking more what kind of thing am I asking slash am I asking anything or am I just saying hi I’m applying. Wording I can figure out if I have a vague idea at least what the direction of the letter is and right now I don’t.

THERAPIST: Yes I mean I guess I think you’re indirectly asking for some assistance if possible.

CLIENT: Yes, and I’m doing that by telling them I’m applying. Yes, I was really excited when I found it because I’d just been planning on on Tuesday I’d gone on the work website and saved a few jobs. And some were things that would be a good fit and some of them were long shots. And I went to look at those same jobs on Sunday when Sydney had his game starting at 4:00 so I said I am going to try to get at least one job application in. And then I had done another search and there it was. [00:22:44]

THERAPIST: Up it popped.

CLIENT: Yes. So I’m really glad I found it.

THERAPIST: Yes, well I hope that it goes in a good direction for you. I really do.

CLIENT: Do you think it would be a good idea for me to try to take a temp job that lasts two to three months if I’m trying to apply but I don’t want to be without a job so I can stay in the apartment? [00:23:09]

THERAPIST: I think it’s fine because I think that in the big picture, a temp job is a temp job. And while you don’t want to be flaky and not show up for things for smaller reasons, your career and getting yourself a permanent position is your main priority. And if you take a temp job and it’s supposed to be for two to three months and you get an opportunity to take a permanent position, then you resign in as a professional a way as you can. And if you’re offered a position, you have negotiating room for a start date at that point.

So if you get offered a position they’re not going to say and we need you to start tomorrow or you don’t get it. They’re going to offer you a position and you’re going to say I’m so excited; I appreciate the opportunity. I can start in two weeks. And then you give two weeks’ notice at the other job. But we’re getting a little bit ahead of ourselves because you don’t have an offer in hand [00:24:14]

CLIENT: Don’t have an offer but I do have to decide now whether or not do I tell them okay I can take two or three months position when I originally had said that when I had asked if I would be interested in shorter term things. So whether or not I tell them that when I call them up on Wednesday and see if there’s anything.

THERAPIST: So I guess that you have a decision to make of whether you live with a little bit of the uncertainty of not knowing when you might get a position, when you might get an offer for something full-time and can you decline politely to a temp job if something, if you get an interview for something or if you get an offer for something.

CLIENT: Yes. It’s just because the guys said oh call us, he said if you have a, are really, really, really sick or have a family emergency. So it seems like those are the only reasons I could miss work. And I guess if they have a policy like that and are going to be ridiculous about it, they should know that people in temp jobs are applying for full-time things, then I guess I’ll have to make up the really sick or family emergency. And I just feel so bad about doing that. I wouldn’t obviously tell a job that I’m going to be interviewing for another job but I wouldn’t want to have to actively lie like that. But they’re sort of forcing me to do that if I take a two to three month position like it is. [00:25:56]

THERAPIST: So you’re going to continue to apply to permanent positions because that’s what you ultimately want is something in your field. And if these conflicts arise then we can figure out the best way for you to manage the conflicts as they come up. But it seems you’re kind of getting a little bit ahead of yourself and getting really anxious about it because it hasn’t occurred yet. And you can say no I won’t take a two to three month position or you can take one and see how you can fit it in. [00:26:35]

CLIENT: Yes, it’s -

THERAPIST: There’s a lot of what ifs here.

CLIENT: Because I just am afraid I’ll take one and then feel trapped and feel like I, it and of course the whole rest of what if I come to a really awful environment and I’m stuck there for two to three months, and get too depressed to be able to leave and rather get depressed that I’m, when I’m at work every day and feel miserable and wake up I was so bad when I was at that job but I’ve been fine at other office environments. [00:27:17]

THERAPIST: Do you think it was just the job there or were there other things different about that time?

CLIENT: I guess it was the job plus the lack of any socialization. And just being in the cubicle by myself with no interaction with anyone while I was doing my job because it was all through e-mail or the system.

THERAPIST: What was your social life outside of work at that time? I don’t remember when exactly that was.

CLIENT: I was only there a week but I didn’t really have a social life. I think I was still in Tekiah but I think I ended up missing a rehearsal instead of going and just it was come home to eat and sleep and that was brutal. [00:28:14]

THERAPIST: Yes. So part of it is also you were thinking about one week, which was a really intense experience. But it’s a pretty isolated time so it might I wonder would there have been a way to accommodate to that situation? Knowing that the workday felt really isolating and in cubicles and not a lot of social interaction. If you were there a longer term would there be a way to compensate for some of that on the back end thinking about scheduling things with friends for the evenings or to try to balance it.

But one week really didn’t give you time to do that. You had the negative experience of transitioning to a new place, feeling really uncomfortable in the days while you were there and not having any time to try to figure out how to compensate for that in the time out of work. So we don’t know what would’ve happened it we would have done the experiment of trying to arrange the other parts of your day to make up for the work part of your day that was so negative. [00:29:22]

CLIENT: I don’t know because like I said I don’t mind doing work. I don’t even mind doing work the entire time and not having much time for breaks. It’s just being so isolated and not having anyone around just made me feel miserable. And I’m not sure if socializing when I got home well even, I guess it would give me something to look forward to.

THERAPIST: Plus meet some of your needs for socialization. And also part of, I think, one of the things that we need to work on is being able to be resilient when there are things that are uncomfortable. Being able to tolerate some distress without it feeling so overwhelming. Being able to increase that because there are going to be things that are really uncomfortable. There’ll be times when you feel isolated or anxious or sad; those are parts of human experience and being able to tolerate those periods without becoming overwhelmed by them. [00:30:31]

And I think what often feels overwhelming for you is that when you’re having times like that you start to imagine that that’s the course, not just for right then but also forever. It gets blown up to the future and that is very overwhelming. You’re thinking about feeling isolated forever or even a long period of time, months. That’s really overwhelming. Being isolated for eight hours at a time is tolerable especially if the other times after that eight-hour workday is different.

And so that’s one of the things I think that would really work for you is being able to trust yourself that you could tolerate some of that discomfort, be resilient to it and compensate for it in other places. [00:31:21]

CLIENT: Yes. I don’t know. Yes, because that should work hopefully. I just don’t know why it was so bad there. I mean it was, I came out of work every day feeling like if this is what life is I don’t want it anymore.

THERAPIST: But did you hear that? You came out of work every day. Five days, one week?

CLIENT: Oh a week and a half.

THERAPIST: So eight workdays, seven work days? So seven days and then you said if this is what life is. Life for how long? Write and see the limits on it.

CLIENT: Well it was going to be three months. [00:32:14]

THERAPIST: But three months is a semester. It’s a very big difference between life forever, life for two months, life for two years. What you can tolerate for two months because it gets you these other things, right, because there’s a benefit to being able to fulfill that job or another job. And it’s not forever; it’s a fairly short period of time. But being able to see it as one day at a time or five workdays at a time and then a weekend makes it a lot more tolerable than thinking that this is what life is going to be like. That’s pretty extended.

CLIENT: Yes, that’s true.

THERAPIST: And it can really feel like that when you’re in the midst of something that feels miserable; it can feel like it’s forever. Being able to step back and say okay really how long do I need to put up with this? Oh I need to put up with it for 10 more days or I know that’s not the specific example but finding ways to withstand really uncomfortable parts of life is part of life. [00:33:28]

CLIENT: Yes. There are ways of me getting out of the house and stuff and I would have money and would not have to feel bad about stuff or things.

THERAPIST: Yes. It’s not learning to tolerate distress is not just for the purposes of being uncomfortable. It’s because oftentimes there’s another side to it, there’s a reason like being able to keep your apartment, getting some structure to your days, feeling more independent. Those are the benefits of being a little bit more flexible in what kind of environment you can work in. You know you mentioned you have a couple’s session coming up. This is [00:34:06]

CLIENT: Tomorrow.

THERAPIST: Tomorrow? Do you want to talk at all about what you’re hoping to get out of it, what you’re I know you asked some questions about what to anticipate before.

CLIENT: I’m trying to figure out because it still has happened that I get really mad at Sydney. And even if I don’t say anything he knows that I’m mad because of the expression I have or something. And I want to figure out how I can deal with that in a way that he can handle because right now he seems like the only thing he can handle is me not being mad at him. But if he’s made me upset, even if I don’t choose to talk about it or something I don’t really feel like I have the ability to let it go. And if I do that it’ll just build up more and come out worse a little bit later. And I feel like it’s kind of unrealistic to say that I should never get upset with him in the first place if he’s done something upsetting. [00:35:13]

THERAPIST: That does seem unrealistic, right, because I mean as we just discussed discomfort, distress is part of life. And him being able to tolerate some discomfort is the same as you needing to be able to tolerate some discomfort. Do you know what he’s hoping to get out of it? Have you talked at all about what your expectations are with each other?

CLIENT: No I haven’t. But this time he probably wants me to learn how I can deal with my anger so I don’t get mad at him in the first place and care about his feelings more when I am upset, which right now it’s really hard for me to do. And I sort of just get to the point where I feel like I don’t care about his feelings. Something’s going wrong and he could be missing (ph) me and stuff and he’s upset because he gets upset so often I stop hearing, which is really, really horrible and I know that [00:36:13]

THERAPIST: Feels like too many times that you’re asked to care about his feelings.

CLIENT: Yes which I shouldn’t but I’ve just been so drained and stuff that it just makes it really hard to I know I should [inaudible at 00:36:34] and I don’t know if that’s something I could change or if I’m doomed.

THERAPIST: That’s a really strong word. I feel doomed.

CLIENT: Or if the relationship is doomed.

THERAPIST: Do you think it is?

CLIENT: I don’t know because I’m not sure how to whether or not my feelings about that sort of stuff can change.

THERAPIST: But you feel they definitely need to in order to continue the relationship?

CLIENT: Well yes because I don’t want to not care about him not being upset. [00:37:14]

THERAPIST: Do you care about him being outside of an argument, like now? Do you care about whether he’s upset or does that ?

CLIENT: Yes. If it’s outside an argument and he’s feeling sad I don’t want him to be feeling sad or kind of ditches when it’s an argument and it’s something that -

THERAPIST: It’s hard to maintain both your perspective and his at the same time. Yes, that’s really challenging. Are there things you so that’s something that you feel like you’re assuming he needs you to change because you haven’t really been able to talk about it with him. I mean you’ve had arguments and that’s maybe what you’re basing your assumption on?

CLIENT: Well yes because he had even mentioned it feels like you don’t care at all when I’m sad. And turning afraid like I actually stopped caring whether he’s upset.

THERAPIST: Are there things you feel like you need him to change that are kind of deal breakers right now?

CLIENT: Yes, some of it is language related. He doesn’t like the fact that I’m often hyper-literal but it’s really triggering when he says he’ll do something in a few seconds and what he really means is 20 or 30 minutes later. And I’ve told him please stop saying that; why don’t you just say a few minutes or it will be a while and it won’t be soon because if it’s going to be a while he doesn’t want me to get mad at him but I end up getting more mad if he’s been lying to me in the first place about being able to do something. [00:38:39]

THERAPIST: It feels like a lie, not a -

CLIENT: I mean I guess he’s just not 100% sure that he can do it. He thinks maybe I’ll be able to do it later but he doesn’t tell me that. He says okay I can do it just give me a while. And eventually over many times he won’t be able to and then he’s wasted all of my time and I would’ve been able to, maybe I would’ve had to put in some effort to do it myself but I might’ve been able to do it myself depending on what the task or thing was. [00:39:13]

THERAPIST: That’s the first time I’ve heard you use the word hyper-literal. Is that his word, your word?

CLIENT: His word.

THERAPIST: Do you agree with his assessment that ?

CLIENT: I don’t know. It just sort of because I guess the context of things is people not meaning what they say. I guess it’s one thing to get mad at someone if we were arguing about food and his example to me was you’ll say oh well I don’t really care; I’m not hungry, which of course is me being upset and probably I am caring and am hungry. But I feel like there’s a difference between that and being asked a direct question and not giving a truthful answer, which is what he does. And he’ll say deal with it. [00:40:05]

THERAPIST: So you feel like he’s lying, I mean the words you use is lying to me.

CLIENT: He asks can you do this?

THERAPIST: Are there other instances where you feel like your particular specificity with language and what it means gets in the way with you guys?

CLIENT: Mostly in that context. I mean I guess just sort of southern, he learned that you shouldn’t ask for things directly; you should beat around the bush and stuff and be polite.

THERAPIST: So it’s cultural differences.

CLIENT: And I’m thinking it’s not polite to it’s one thing when a complete stranger asks hi how are you doing and you say fine; it’s another thing when your girlfriend asks how are you doing and you say fine and you really mean no I’m doing really horribly. And I might ask are you sure and he says yes. And if I’m asking a second time he really should because it’s sort of wanting confirmation because I am sort of picking up on the fact that he’s upset or something but then he tells me, and for me the word overpowers any other nonverbal evidence. [00:41:21]

THERAPIST: So you’re really listening to the words and when there’s a mismatch you’re going to believe the words.

CLIENT: Yes, even though I shouldn’t. That would be way easier if he just used the words that mean what he feels.

THERAPIST: I’ve noticed that sometimes in here the specific word choice also really matters to you. If I say something that I need to be kind of, sometimes I say things I mean in a more general way and you really focus a lot of the specifics of a situation and a particular incident that we’re discussing. Which isn’t necessarily I’m not pointing that out to say that’s a problem but in a relationship or in a conversation, making sure that we’re on the same page and sometimes being able to generalize can be helpful. But if I think we’re talking about something in general and you think we’re talking about a particular moment, it might lead to feeling really misunderstood or frustrated [00:42:28]

CLIENT: But this isn’t something that happens in my day-to-day life with normal people. And the other thing -

THERAPIST: It’s not, you’re saying or does -

CLIENT: Yes, it’s not. And maybe because of course I expect there to be more boundaries between me and other people and if they ask me how I’m doing I will probably say fine even though I’m not.

THERAPIST: Yes, so you want there to be a difference between your partner and your therapist.

CLIENT: It’s just instinct to have to put up a front to those things and I can do that for the time when I’m upset with someone in my day-to-day life I could probably hold it in until I get away from them or something. But if I’m around Sydney all the time I can’t put up that front forever and it feels exhausting to have to do that. And maybe I never really had many arguments with Dad because I only saw him two or three days a week. [00:43:30]

THERAPIST: A lot more individual time than intimate time. Well I hope that, this is the first meeting with the couples counseling project. I hope that it feels like a good match and you’re able to develop a plan that would be helpful to you guys. Why don’t we wrap up there for today? I need to check in with you about next week because I unfortunately need to have some medical tests that are going to get in the way of our session.

CLIENT: Okay. Hope everything is okay.

THERAPIST: Thank you. So I have to be out in the afternoon but I could come in in the morning, which might work better for you depending on what happens with work. So we’re looking at the 19th. I could do a 10:30 or a 12:30 on Tuesday the 19th. I could do a 9:30.

CLIENT: I’ll do the let me just get to my calendar so I can put this in. So you said a 10:30 on ? [00:44:42]

THERAPIST: I could do a 10:30 on the 19th or a 12:30.

CLIENT: Okay why don’t we do the -

THERAPIST: And then I have a 9:30 okay, go ahead. The 10:30?

CLIENT: Let’s do the 10:30 on the -

THERAPIST: Okay. [Pause] And then we had already discussed -

CLIENT: Memorial Day.

THERAPIST: Memorial Day?

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: And where did I put you? I don’t see you. Are we skipping that?

CLIENT: I think we’re skipping.

THERAPIST: Okay. I thought I don’t see you that week. And so we’re back, for June 2nd back onto 2:30 unless you have a job at which time we’ll figure out what to do with it.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: All right?

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: I will see you next week. [00:45:38]

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