TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: (Cross talk) Yeah. No problem.

(Pause): [00:00:06 00:00:12]

THERAPIST: So. We'll talk a little bit about double sessions or not, or how often.

CLIENT: I think ...

THERAPIST: Questions.

CLIENT: I think, maybe sometimes that would be beneficial. It feels like breaking it up just a little short sometimes -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: with a weekend between especially. So, just a thought, but I don't know if I need that regularly or if that would even be beneficial regularly.

THERAPIST: What does that feel like for you to think about doing it regularly versus on occasion?

(Pause): [00:00:39 00:00:43]

CLIENT: I don't know. I guess, I mean it's obviously more time, but

(Pause): [00:00:46 00:00:49]

THERAPIST:

CLIENT: But not much more time. Honestly? Because I already allow pretty much an hour for this appointment and it takes an hour to get here, an hour to get back, so (laugh) another half hour beyond that would not be a big deal.

THERAPIST: You know I thought as a starting point, and this is something we could try it and it if it feels like doing it regularly would help versus doing it less regularly would feel better, we can always change up the system as things open up, depending on how it feels. I had-I wondered, you got my message about that 8:20 -

CLIENT: Um hmm.

THERAPIST: if you could do, would it be possible for you to be here at 8:20? I know that's awfully early.

CLIENT: It would be possible. I guess I'm a little ambivalent because it's more of a personal thing, but that would mean pretty much from 6:30 in the morning until noon I wouldn't accomplish anything in my day aside from therapy. Not that there's anything wrong with devoting a morning to because that's pretty much what I'm doing now, but that's kind of a lot.

THERAPIST: Yep. Yeah, so what if we could do 8:20, back to back at 8:20. I can't do that every week but I could do that every other week and if you could move to 9:10. we could move our hour to 9:10.

CLIENT: Oh, I see what you mean.

THERAPIST: See what I'm saying? So I do 8:20, 9:10 and 10 right now. And like when the day goes on it was switched to 9:10. Do you think I could do as a permanent time then we could do every other week, that back-to-back 8:20 if we took an hour and 30 minutes.

CLIENT: But not 9:10 to 10:45 or whatever it would (cross talk)

THERAPIST: I can't do that as of now.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: If it, once it opens you're number one on my wait list to do that but I can't free it up now.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: The 10:50 after might, I might, if that gets freed up I could keep that in mind, but I can't right now do -

CLIENT: Okay. No, I understand.

THERAPIST: unless there's a cancellation.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: Um hmm. Um humm.

THERAPIST: So I don't know if you want to try that or do you want to just wait until there's a cancellation and stick with this time.

CLIENT: I guess I'm not sure. I'm really, I'm wondering what your assessment of how you think like do I need more time? Do I not seem to have enough I'm wondering what you think about that.

THERAPIST: I do think you could benefit from more time. I agree with you on that. I think you could benefit from it in a regular way. If you were much closer I would tell you to come twice a week and we would just be doing it that way. So I get wanting to do a back to back so at least you don't have to -

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: waste the travel time (inaudible) [00:03:41]

CLIENT: It's not, it's not that it's a waste. We're also seeing Dr. Farrow (sp?) and then it's getting to be like, (laughs) it's getting to be a lot.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Anyway. So, if you can swing getting up early -

CLIENT: Laughs.

THERAPIST: that would be a way of -

CLIENT: Um hmm.

THERAPIST: us having it every other week then on average. Okay, I'll think about that.

CLIENT: Okay. I'll think about that.

(Pause): [00:04:05 00:04:11]

THERAPIST: Think about that and let me know. Otherwise I'll keep keeping on my (inaudible) before or after this time.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: (inaudible) [00:04:20]

(Pause): [00:04:21 00:04:25]

THERAPIST: So what's on your mind?

CLIENT: So I guess a lot has happened since last Monday. Ivan got back, obviously, and, (Pause) he actually got back he decided he wanted to take the later, the latest possible, so he was late to our session (laughs) because he came directly like from New Orleans to Union Station to the session. He was late and I was ... [00:04:34 00:04:38]

THERAPIST: To your couples session.

CLIENT: Um hmm.

THERAPIST: (Laughs)

CLIENT: Which is not very indicative of 'I took the week to reflect and I'm ready to work' and I'm pretty angry at him right now and things did not go well in the week he was gone and ...

THERAPIST: Meaning what?

CLIENT: Meaning he decided he wasn't going to call, wasn't going to like contact me at all and he's like, 'well, I wanted to give you space.' And I said, 'well, that's one thing, but when I called and you wouldn't answer or you hung up on me, or you wouldn't answer or talk to me, what, just refuse.

THERAPIST: He hung up on you?

CLIENT: Yeah. Which this is not a new this has happened since we were dating. If there's an argument and it's over the phone or if there's any kind of like, confrontation or conflict or anything rubs him the wrong way he always seems to feel like it's an option to hang up and shut off his phone or put it in, like walk away ...

THERAPIST: What?

CLIENT: ...and then he won't answer and then of course I call back like ten times because I'm so upset that he really just did that again and it's you know, which is terrible because I'm just stuck on the other end, upset and nothing can get resolved or worked out and it's not healthy for me to just be calling up to him and calling up to him. And he is, you know, not going to deal with it.

THERAPIST: It's such a weak (inaudible) in your relationship (inaudible) [00:06:10]

CLIENT: No. This whole like walking out of the whole, like, for Ivan it's like, it's become a common being when something isn't going to go okay it's avoid, avoid, avoid, like and then it doesn't go okay because he really and it's so frustrating.

THERAPIST: Yeah, for him it sounds like you can differentiate that he's mad but also that he's avoiding something and it's difficult for him.

CLIENT: Right. But I also if we're having a conversation at home, even, he'll be like standing in the doorway of one of the rooms, he'll be like thinking about getting out of the apartment. Like he's always and it's so frustrating because it's like how are we going to talk about anything that isn't 'cause it's like I don't know. It doesn't go very well. Yesterday I had a particularly tough afternoon Tuesday (deep breath) because I called him in the afternoon because that's when he was saying something about 'oh,, I rescheduled Dr. Bourd (ph) for Saturday,' and I said, 'no, I called him because I'm like wait a minute, you told me your first day at Subway is on Saturday. Did you forget about that? What are your hours? What's going on with that?' Like he needs a and, because I mean, that aside and then he's like, 'so do you have, are you getting ready to go to class or whatever?' And I just like stopped for a minute because I was so frustrated because Tuesday later in the afternoon was like this really big career fair that the school puts on every year and it's like 45 plus vendors, like (inaudible) players, and I been like preparing for weeks and I've been like, spent so many hours re-updating and reformatting and redoing my resume and going to workshops and researching the people who are going to like the whole it was a big deal to me and it's not like it's you know a big life event going to a prayer fair but it was now I'm starting to look for a job and it was important to me and he can't remember and I'm like, 'well, you were here like all the weeks that I went to all those workshops and some of the times when I was working, so he's like, 'well, no,' His immediate response was just, I cannot get over it, cannot get past, is (laughs) like, 'well it's your fault because the past couple of days you haven't really told me much about what's going on with you. And I'm like, it's been on the white board, it's been going on for weeks. I've been planning this and I said, 'well, you have that fancy phone now,' which is the term I used because he has a cell phone or whatever and it he has the capacity to set reminders and alarms and all (laughs) kinds of things, you know just work and it's good because he doesn't remember things on his own so that's a tool he can use. And he's like, 'you're belittling me by using the word, fancy, you're belittling.' And I'm like, 'no!' So it was just really, I got really worked up and crying which was so frustrating to me because I actually did my makeup (laughter) it was just so, it was horrible. I mean, my sister calls me and I didn't understand that. And, she was like, 'Ivan just tried to call me and I didn't know why. What's going on?' And I told her and she said, 'do not, don't call him back. Let it go. Fix your makeup, calm yourself down and get him to school. You'll be fine. Like the whole and I said, 'no I really (laughs) it was so incredible, I didn't I was completely planning to blow her off and call him back because I was so upset. I needed him to apologize. Like needed it to somehow be resolved and worked out and okay without him like him hanging up, blaming me for getting not being supportive, the whole thing and she's like 'don't do it.' She's like, 'I know you want to do apologize, but don't do it.' So I didn't which was really, really, really hard. [00:07:17]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And, anyway, there were a couple ...

THERAPIST: You think it was good for you.

CLIENT: It was very good for me.

THERAPIST: (inaudible) [00:10:12]

CLIENT: Right. Because, I really wanted I was so worked up and so I really needed him to like, 'I'm so sorry, I really didn't mean that,' or 'really sorry, I forgot,' or anything to salvage it, but I was so hurt, no hurt. Not that he forgot, per se, but just that his response wasn't, 'oh, my gosh, I can't believe I forgot that. I am so sorry. I know that's something you've really been working on.' And it just didn't go well. So, I tried to call him a few other times in the week and he'll be like, 'oh I was taking a nap, I was helping my mom with dinner, I went to the movies with my dad, I went out to lunch, I was with my family,' like I talked to his dad at one point and he was like, 'this is not a vacation for Ivan. We've been talking about some of these issues,' or whatever, and I'm like, I wonder. I wonder because it sounds not so much like that and every time I talk to him it wasn't anything like, 'I miss you,' or, 'I've been thinking about this,' or, 'I want to work on this when I get -.' It was never anything like that. (Sigh). And I'm so frustrated because the week of space that I was hoping would give us each some perspective and some chance to get back to it for him was like, evidently a way to just avoid and to the point where he came back slowly, he's late for our session. And I'm just (exhales). [00:10:41]

THERAPIST: And that didn't have to be?

CLIENT: No. There was an earlier one. There was one that would have gotten in at 5:30 in the morning. He could have come back on Friday. There's one he could have come back any other and it was really, and he doesn't I don't think he gets that I'm I don't know how insulted or offended or like this isn't why isn't this the priority? Why am I not the priority here? So, we had a very intense session because I said things have gotten worse. I'm thinking about separating. It's something I've been thinking about this week seriously. I don't know that there's any other option and ...

THERAPIST: How did that go over?

CLIENT: Dr. Farrow (sp?) really heard that and really responded to it. And it told her I even felt like sometimes the couples therapy didn't feel, and this might sound really horrible, but it didn't always feel appropriate because a lot of the big issue like the lying or the taking money because of the loans or things like that, they aren't my fault and I don't even feel like I play a remote role in them, like it's not even like, 'no.' And so I don't feel okay or I get angry sometimes sitting there and talking. The goal, I feel is to talk about each couples' part and to resolve it,, but I feel like I don't play a part in a big chunk of it.

THERAPIST: Yeah. And what, as a consequence what happens in a session? Do you end up focusing on him?

CLIENT: No. We end up focusing on my anger and resentment. And, I am so angry (laughs) it sounds so, but I'm so angry about that because I don't yes, it's a problem and yes, I admit that it influences the way I actually speak to him and, of course, that hurts our marriage, and I'm so angry and so resentful, but I wouldn't be if he could stop lying or get his act together or these types of things. So it's really frustrating because he always wants to push the focus there which I understand because that's a way to push the focus off of him, but it's so I told her that and she said, 'no,' she was like, 'all those feelings are valid,' she said. I felt so much better because she's like, 'when I was writing that list of how you felt,' she said, 'I thought that I would be feeling every one of those things, you know, if I was betrayed like that.' And she said, 'it's perfectly normal,' and so I felt good because (exhale) that was validated.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But, she agreed. She said, 'let's not let's agree not to separate for a while, because you were making some little steps before. Because it's been three weeks since we've seen her because she was away on vacation, Ivan had an interview and (sigh) and she was like, 'you were making a little bit of progress before so let's see if we can,' you know two sessions this week.

THERAPIST: Yeah, it's so tricky because it does sound like there has been some movement.

CLIENT: Um hmm.

THERAPIST: He got a job. There have been some things along the way where you've come in and said he's made dinner or he took care of the laundry, (inaudible) and there's some initiative happening. But then something about this week sounds like a break, felt really discouraging. [00:14:56]

CLIENT: Um hmm.

THERAPIST: Almost like maybe you really had an expectation that he would really use this time to have some space to get it together and would end up feeling like he's used the time to avoid.

CLIENT: Um hmm.

THERAPIST: Is that ...

CLIENT: Yep.

THERAPIST: ... fair?

CLIENT: Yep.

THERAPIST: Understandably. I mean, it's a valid is he able to own the avoidance from the week? I mean is there any movement on that?

CLIENT: No. I don't ...

THERAPIST: What does he say about it.

CLIENT: He says, 'you know what we' because I'm like, 'well, you know I tried to text or you don't answer,' and I find out later like he's out to lunch with his dad and then they went to the movies and then they, I'm like that sounds like more of a vacation and he's like, 'you know what we talked about at lunch? We talked about my impression and how I can treat you better,' and like, he's resentful or almost like he's angry at me because that's what his out to lunch with his dad was. And I'm like (laughs) I don't even know if he recognizes that he's avoiding or even that it's not okay, that he needs to talk about these things or he needs to deal with them.

THERAPIST: Going to lunch or going to the movies over the course of the week in and of itself doesn't have to mean he's on vacation.

CLIENT: No! No.

THERAPIST: But it sounds like you're not sensing that he's saying I just want to let you know I've been using the time. I've really been thinking about us, I've had several really difficult conversations with my dad. He's not leading ...

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: ... with what he's done and interspersed, of course you'd go to the movies or go out to lunch at one if that's not right.

CLIENT: Right. No.

THERAPIST: In and of itself that doesn't have to mean either way but that the fact that's kind of what you're hearing about unless you probe, probe, probe, probe, probe, doesn't give you faith ...

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: ... he's doing this from a place of his own wanting to be working on what is his valuation (ph). [00:17:00]

CLIENT: No. And, right, and he comes back, I mean he's late for our session and I'm just so, I'm like, this is just like (laugh) the straw that broke the camel's back. It's like too really? Like, 'after all that, now you're late to the session and now, (sigh) and then but it's very weird because after that we went home and we talked and this was like a really big session because I really said, 'maybe we need to separate.'

THERAPIST: Is that the first time you said it in that way before?

CLIENT: (Pause): I think that I actually formalized it and didn't use it as like, 'I'm dying,' or 'I can't,' like a very vague and was really serious about it and she took it seriously.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And so that valued it beyond saying it at home.

THERAPIST: Yes.

(Pause):

CLIENT: So then after that we talked a little more at home and then later he's like I said, 'okay, so what happened,' because it one point in the week he after the Tuesday thing, that night he said, ' you know, I'm going to write you what I need to say,' and he led me to believe it was this really important, you know, okay, 'so I'm going to own up to it, I'm going to tell you what I want, I'm going to tell you my plan, I'm going to tell you what's going on' type of thing and after the week was over I'm like, 'so whatever happened to that?' 'Oh, well, I didn't I kept throwing it away because it wasn't good enough.' And I'm like, 'all right, so I got nothing.' And so, Friday night he's spent, I don't know a half hour, not a very long time and he wrote a page and a half and just told me how he feels and what's been going on and he's apologetic and if I feel like he's isolating me or it's abusive sometimes that I need to get out of the relationship and he wants that for me and he wants me to be happy and the whole spiel. And it was, it was a really nice note, but at the end he's like, 'if we can move forward, why don't we go out to dinner tonight, why don't we -,' and I'm like, 'okay, I'm not ready to go from 'let's talk about separating to let's go out to dinner' and pretend like everything's okay. But that but I mean after I was done reading it he's like sitting out in the living room and he's like nervous and he's like fidgeting and he said, 'oh, the whole time you were reading it I was thinking I should have added this or I should have cut out that or I should have,' like he was so worked up about it.

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: So I really went over the top and expressed how meaningful it was and how effective it was to know like for him to be able to communicate even if it's through paper, we can't do it forever, but (laugh) and it was really I really appreciated it.

THERAPIST: So (inaudible) not knowing for sure [00:19:29]

CLIENT: Exactly. And I'm like, 'if this is how it has to be, like clearly we can't possibly know what's (inaudible) marriage by this stuff like -

THERAPIST: Better than that.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Yeah (laughs)

CLIENT: This is huge. This was really huge and it was it really felt like the old Ivan. It really, you know, instead of like this sharp, harsh stuff that I'd been getting sometimes, because that's not how he is, like that's not how I've known him to be. So, it felt like I made a little progress and things he go very clingy, like super clingy (laugh), which does not Ivan does that sometimes. He's very attached. He has issues with me being away, his issues like he's very clingy, but then Sunday morning I made a very big mistake evidently because I wanted to know like, 'are you excited about your new job that starts today? It starts this afternoon.' I'm like, 'are you excited about it? How do you feel?' And, 'well I'm worried it won't be good enough. I'm worried it won't work out.' And I'm like, 'well, maybe why don't you get your schedule for the week?' Or, 'when is your first payday? Do you know any of these things?' And he's like, 'no.' And so it turned into like a big two hour fight because I wanted to know his schedule for the week and it was hard for us to even to schedule with Dr. Farrow (sp?) because he has no clue when he works and he made no effort to find out when he works this week. I'm like, 'why didn't you?' Like what's going on? (laughs) Like, 'why aren't you?' And he seemed to have no, he really had no sense or reality that this was important for me or like this would make me feel a little more secure, a little more comfortable that he's getting this together, he cares about having a schedule, he but so far it's been like so at the end of the fight he took 60 seconds and called work and he found out that his manager was going to be back at X-time and be able to tell him his schedule and that's all I wanted. That's all I needed from you. Like why was that such a big (sigh) so it's like really frustrating because he got a job and that's good even though, I mean, it's not a great paying job but it's a fulltime job but it still feels like we're pulling teeth.

THERAPIST: That's not enough. Yeah.

CLIENT: 'Cause I tried to explain it I'm like, 'not getting the job was never the problem.' So it's really like been a roller coaster.

THERAPIST: What did he say to you in his letter? Was he able to put it in writing?

CLIENT: It was wonderful. It was the whole, like you know, 'I'm sorry I haven't been what you've needed to me to be,' like I apologizing for everything from, just apologizing for a lot of it and constantly re-emphasizing that he wants whatever is best for me and if that means us not being together then he wants that and if he which is tricky because it almost feels like a guilt trip, but (sigh) -

THERAPIST: And he's also not saying, 'I want to live together, so I'm going to work really hard to make sure that I win your love back over.'

CLIENT: Right. "Cause that's the thing that's been really frustrating that I tried to emphasize with the talking with him about the separation because I said this isn't what I want. He's like, 'do you really want ,' 'No, of course this isn't what I want, but if we can only go from living like this or being separated I'm going to have to pick that eventually because this is not going to work. I can't be breaking down in tears every other day. I can't have a two hour argument because you don't want to get your work schedule. Like I can't do it. I'm just -.' So, it's like it's really up and down and he's talking he's like, 'I don't feel like my session with Dr. Bourd (sp?) is helpful. I said, 'did you tell him that?' Like, 'you need to let him know.' And, he's like, 'yeah, I did but I don't know.' And (sigh) so I don't know, I have no clue what's going on there for I don't know if that's just his perception that he's not making progress or if it really is the case. I don't know if it's not aggressive enough as an approach for him.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like I don't know what's going on but I'm very concerned by that because that's where I'm putting a lot of my hope.

THERAPIST: I wonder if it would be helpful for me to touch base with either Dr. Farrow (sp?) or Dr. Bourd (sp?) just to get their feedback directly. I don't know if that would -

CLIENT: That would be fine with me, that would be more than fine with me. In fact, I would appreciate it.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Because I've been wondering if I should even, he and I had the one session with him, with Dr. Bourd (sp?) together. I was wondering if I should even -

THERAPIST: I think that would be a great idea.

CLIENT: do that again.

THERAPIST: That would be a great idea. It's even better coming from you than from me because I'm you know, you're the one living it. It would just be curious for me but I feel may be helpful for you to hear what Dr. Bourd (sp?) actually thinks about what is happening. The last he and I spoke this was a long time ago you know he did seem aware of how many deficits there were and the need for actually just some concrete kind of structure and being able to help which is not usually what he does but it was sort of he was honing in on that being really where the work was going to be for a little while. So, I've got the sense that he at least got that instead of just sort of letting Ivan talk and (cross talk) (inaudible) would be open ended and in a way that would be useful for him but (inaudible). Has Ivan ever been for a psycho form (ph) evaluation? Would he do that? ([00:24:40]

CLIENT: I'm sure he would. I don't know how he could be approached because, well, obviously by Dr. Bourd (sp?) or someone like that, but I'm really concerned because Ivan has this he attaches a stigma with it and he's very self-conscious and I know his dad has said things like, 'you need on -'

THERAPIST: Oh really.

CLIENT: Which is which from him is like a shaming type of -

THERAPIST: Yeah. So, it's even said in that way.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: (Cross talk) (inaudible) [00:25:27]

CLIENT: Which I totally underlike, I completely support Ivan and feel like it feels horrible knowing it feels like you need drugs to fix you. So, I don't want him to feel that way, so I don't know if he can be approached in an ultra-sensitive way that he -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But I don wonder if that would be helpful for him. It doesn't, it doesn't it's really weird because severe depression for me took a very different shape -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But for him, I don't completely know. It seems like he has some trouble focusing his attention but he's also really depressed, but he also has trouble actually like physically getting words out. And he gets, he gets so worked up. I didn't appreciate, but yesterday I watched him and he's like fidgeting with, like -

THERAPIST: A tremendous amount of anxiety.

CLIENT: Yeah. I know and he's like stammering and he's like shaking and he's I mean, and it's really and it's not just in emotional situations. He sometimes has trouble like I'm unloading the dishwasher and he wants to get to the fridge, like we have a narrow and he would rather like almost trip over me than say like, 'I need to get -

THERAPIST: He's insecure...

CLIENT: through. Right. Or and it's not he really has trouble and I wonder if there's something actually going on there.

THERAPIST: Yeah. 'Cause I it also occurs to me but this is where I from your descriptions of it I feel like if there's something very seriously wrong. So, that's why I'm also curious what Dr. Farrow (sp?) and Dr. Bourd (sp?) what their assessments of what actually what's happening, just to see if they they're seeing it in exactly the same way. Like I wonder about psych testing for him to even if just to feel out a little bit more about what's actually happening. Is there any possibility of something organic? Is this depression? Is it ADHD? Is it anxiety? You know. There's a number his symptoms are so severe in a kind of atypical way for just a normal depression.

CLIENT: Really?

THERAPIST: Well, yeah I guess it's a combination of not having his voice and the tremendous stuckness with you relationally that feels like it's at an extreme. It's not just that he's sitting at home on the couch all the time and telling you, 'I'm depressed.' There's a lot of denying it. You know, and able to just say that it seems so far that's he's depressed and I don't (inaudible) [00:28:01]

CLIENT: I would feel better. That's more I always want to know like, 'what's going on,' and then, 'okay, what are we going to do?' And that would be comforting to me and it would be comforting to me to know. And if he needs medication to but again I don't ever want to say anything, probably, and I would rather it come from Dr. Bourd (sp?) obviously.

(Pause): [00:28:26 00:28:29]

THERAPIST: (inaudible) [00:28:33] about what his sense is about what's going on. Does he think there's progress being made?

CLIENT: That's the bizarre thing though. Because we can go from yesterday to him not understanding why I would be concerned about him having a work schedule to this morning I come out like I'm ready to go and he's going to drop me at the station and he's sitting at the kitchen table making a list of stuff to do and I'm like I'm really happy but I can't forget the past year, so it's like I never it's completely unpredictable.

(Pause): [00:29:02 00:29:09]

THERAPIST: It makes you wonder if you know, him going home you in a way, you'd hoped it would be, that's great, he'd back to thinking in a productive way about things, but if his home has been a participant in creating him being avoidant and not really having to take responsibility for things, you'd wonder to what degree it actually was going to help him instead of suck him back into the vortex of what he's always known. You know, I don't know him well enough to know all the details about how that would happen but you can also imagine that, in fact, the best thing for (inaudible) is here with you, it's Dr. Bourd (sp?), it's Dr. Farrow (sp?), and maybe not (inaudible) and he's back with you, you're back communicating, he's back making lists. You know, he's back here. So, it's just hard to it's a long haul of waiting, and waiting and waiting and watching (inaudible) [00:30:15]

CLIENT: I am, I am a little curious because so I felt like we almost made some progress, ironically I guess before we left. He got I don't know if I told you this, but he got really angry is what he got. He had told me he picked me up from the station one night because, whatever, and he was just like, 'yeah, I applied for some jobs today,' and I just said like, 'did you record them?' 'Oh, yeah, I recorded some of them.' I'm like, 'oh.' He's like, 'I'm doing it again, aren't I?' And I'm like, 'yeah.' But that, I felt so hopeful because that was him on his own taking some recognition that he was stuck in that -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And then we got back to the apartment and five minutes later and he's like, 'I lied. I didn't record any of the jobs today.' And I wasn't I was disappointed. I was mostly upset because he lied. I wish he'd just told me. But he started like he was over in the kitchen and he like slammed something and he started yelling and he started I'm like, 'how do you feel? How does this make you feel? What -.' He's like, 'I'm upset.' I'm like, 'are you? Are you sure you're not angry?' 'No, I'm upset. There are a lot of other words for it. I don't have to be angry.' And like he's yelling this and I'm like, 'you're ang-I mean, what is so wrong with saying you're you can be angry at yourself, you can be angry at me I mean it's not going to help here but it's okay to get angry and it's even healthy to get angry and get it out, express it,' and he really, like it really struck me because he really couldn't say that and he really thought he should be above that and he really was trying to bottle it as much as he could and it is so destructive to him I think. I would rathI mean it's not the way I want him to express it of course but I'd rather him slam a can down on the counter and get it out than so I don't know. So the next day he's like, 'well I googled anger management techniques and I wondered if he told Dr. Farrow he's like, 'I try things on for size.' And she's like, 'did that fit?' And he said, 'no.' But you know something's wrong there if he can't even say, I'm angry at myself that I did this again, like -

THERAPIST: Yeah. There's a lot of emotional baggage it sounds like that he carries around even to be angry and express it is being bad.

CLIENT: Right. Like you don't know you shouldn't be slamming things and yelling that's not maybe the best way to get your anger out but you need to say that you're angry. You need to get it out somehow because it's I think it's crippling him emotionally a bit to just -

THERAPIST: You're saying to him actually it may have worked that way in your family, that that was not allowed with me. I would feel more safe in this relationship if I knew more about what your feelings were, not less. I do not want you to I don't want you to hit me but I would like to know what's going on in your inner life, all the feelings and that would make me feel safer and more known and more (inaudible) in this relationship. It's new for him, probably here, that that is a good thing instead of a bad thing. He's that way about even just fighting, you're saying. [00:33:14]

CLIENT: He doesn't want to fight. And no one wants that I'm like no matter how I'm pretty sure I don't know, again, I don't know what a normal, healthy marriage looks like I guess. But I'm pretty sure even the happiest people, they have arguments and they have fights and that doesn't have to -

THERAPIST: And it's healthy.

CLIENT: Right. So, I'm not sure why it's so it's like traumatizing for him.

(Pause): [00:33:46 00:33:51]

THERAPIST: What you've done this week which I think is really, really important makes me wonder a little bit about where it came from inside you, is you stepped outside of your own feeling that you are just forever, perpetually responsible for him in your capacity to say in a way that you mean it, 'I have a limit.' And, 'I'm serious about this limit.' That's very different than what you did as a kid, you know, just beating up aftit's usually growing out of beginning to connect some of the dots of what you've had to put up with that you did have to put up with as a child. You had to. You did not have a choice. You're not going to be eight years old and move out and get your own place. You had to put up with it you had to keep trying to change your mother, you know. It was adaptive, the way you survived was just living on that hope that one day you'd make it through. But with Ivan you're now starting to get a little space to say I don't have to put up with everything. I can say, 'this is what works for me and this doesn't work for me' and it really needs to (inaudible) to this. Just as hopefully he can say that to you. [00:35:05]

CLIENT: Don't, you know, whatever talk to me that way or you know, if you talk to me, talk to be this way.

THERAPIST: Whatever it is, that he can say also, is so healthy for both of you to say, this is who I am and how I want to be treated and really new for you.

CLIENT: It's weird because even as I was saying like I'm wondering if separation is our next step I do feel that way and I started to process a little bit, of course I always have to have a plan for the worse case scenario. I've already planned a little bit like, 'okay, I can start looking for apartments. These pieces of furniture are mine. I can try to live on my loan money and I can try to start working before I graduate, like the whole because that's just how I am. But, at the same time it felt really superficial because I couldn't imagine actually getting through all those steps without okay, let's try this again you know like I just I really am waiting for him to make some kind of I don't know, break through or heroic attempt, you know, something to say, 'no, you don't have to do that, I'm going to get it together.'

THERAPIST: Yeah. Still, that's important though but I think there are (inaudible) or Dr. Farrow (sp?) wouldn't have taken you as seriously as she did is your picturing it and your picturing it in a way that is telling yourself if push comes to shove that there's some validity to that pathway and I'm actually going to picture what it would look like and take it seriously that this is a possibility. It doesn't mean that you're committed to that possibility yet, but to see yourself to beginning to see yourself and that would be a legitimate thing to do. There's so much baggage you have about separating, about divorce, about how hard you are on yourself about your tremendous self-loathing and what you know, I think there are so many (inaudible) to talk about in that, where it gets intentionally kicked up when you would see this as your being imperfect or making this huge mistake and being so self critical. [00:36:18]

CLIENT: No, I already decided that if that happened I wouldn't tell anyone. I wouldn't be able to -

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: Yeah. I could tell my sister because she's already like, she's already addressed the subject because she's very objective and she's pretty much been a mother figure like but I couldn't tell my friends. I couldn't have any of my friends like over anymore or anything like that because I couldn't reveal that I was -

THERAPIST: Why not? I mean, what's the fear?

CLIENT: (Sigh)

THERAPIST: I mean, think of your friends, for example.

CLIENT: Because what would come out would be that her husband struggled with depression and she left him. And what kind of monster, like what kind of horrible person?

THERAPIST: Is that the story?

CLIENT: I'm pretty sure that's what it would be. I know that's what it would be.

THERAPIST: To you? You mean, what the story you'd tell?

CLIENT: It's all I would be able to actually convey. That's all people would really hear.

THERAPIST: Humph.

CLIENT: The fact that it takes him five hours to make a meal. Like that they'd be like so, you know, that's not something you'd leave someone for. The fact that he worked part-time for most of like, most of our marriage so far, like that's not he's dealing with depression. You need to have compassion and sympathy and patience and he just didn't get the help like it would not be it would be my fault and it would not only be my fault I would be this -

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: person who didn't take (exhalation) even two years to try to make her marriage work and who left her husband because he was struggling with mental illness. Who would do that to their spouse?

THERAPIST: Ramona (ph), wow. That's quite a story you made about it. [00:39:07]

CLIENT: But, I mean that's what it would be. That's exactly what it would be.

THERAPIST: So the fear sounds like it's not maybe knowing you're it's sort of doesn't even reach the point of what other people think that is what you'd think of yourself.

CLIENT: And I would believe that's what other people thought.

THERAPIST: And therefore that's what you'd think they thought.

CLIENT: Um hmm.

THERAPIST: So, I wonder how it gets there from, 'I'm really mad at him because he's lying to me repeatedly, he doesn't follow through on anything he says he's going to do, he keeps his head in the sand, he shows up late for appointments,' to, 'I wasn't compassionate enough or honest (inaudible) it's all my fault. [00:39:55]

CLIENT: It's not, I mean in my eyes clearly like a lot of these things aren't okay but he's not taking accountability for them and he even, I mean he even really said to me like, 'you're going easy on yourself' when I said like, 'this lying stuff, and the loans and grad school, like it's not my fault. He really has never there have been a couple of times when he said, 'no, no you're right, it's not your fault.' But I don't really hear it and I don't really see and even when he does say like, 'oh yeah, I'm going to try,' or, 'I'm going to it really comes back to the line my dad always said which was, 'I'm working on it.' And I know what that means. It's not happening and it's like -

THERAPIST: Your dad would say that?

CLIENT: Um hmm.

THERAPIST: About what?

CLIENT: Everything.

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: I mean, he didn't take care of the yard. He couldn't get home He didn't make his clients pay his bills. He didn't send out bills. He didn't collect 'I'm working on it,' was always his phrase and it was to shut us up because he couldn't stop being a workaholic. It's not so much he didn't care and he didn't love us. But he really has a problem and he really can't stop and he really can't put anything else he really, really but it was always, 'I'm working on it,' and it just it took a long time before I realized, 'don't have any hope. He just says that because it's just-,' and that's exactly how it feels when Ivan says, 'I'm trying,' or, 'I'm going to -,' it always feels like I'm going to think about hoping about trying,' and it's like I'm not asking, I mean, really, truly his only responsibilities are to work 40 hours a week -

THERAPIST: Maybe more.

CLIENT: Maybe more at this point, help out around the apartment, maybe make some meals, be supportive, be nice, be loving, whatever. It's really so reasonable, but learned growing up just because it's a reasonable I mean, if there's any it's just too much, too much. Then -

THERAPIST: And yet, the other question that I hear you really struggling with is as an extreme example if you embrace for now that this is Ivan's severe depression that's what it is, in other words, that's the sum total of what's causing you to feel frustrated with him, when is there is enough is enough even in a mental illness at this stage of a marriage do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Or is there not? Like are you guided by no, you would stand by someone for 10 years if they're in this place and what are those certified (inaudible) where it's enough? I mean I guess one day I hear you saying is okay, if it's his depression and you really believe that he's taking account of it and working on it and you trust that he's working on it that that would make you feel like a different story. [00:42:53]

CLIENT: Yeah, it would. And I have something horrible to admit. It's just a fantasy of having a thought that I had, but I was aware of it and I wouldn't have to tell anyone and no one would ever know but I'm taking this anthropology class and anyway, there's a Muslim girl from Saudi Arabia and she describes, she's been talking about she's been explaining these long traditionally little but anyway, she at one point said like she's talking about arranged marriages and like sort of intense things they go through, like they can't date and the whole thing before they get married and she said, 'divorce is fine,' like it's a last resort. It's not, you know people give up immediately, but there is no shame and a divorced woman is just as desirable as a single woman and I had this passing thought like it's the worst thing ever, but you know, I almost wish I wasn't religious and I wish I was something like that that could, that it's like such a horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible such a

THERAPIST: Why are you so -

CLIENT: No, no, but say, even think like your own to even think about to have that type of a blasphemous thought I guess is what it is essentially, is so horrible, but at the same time I just felt that I really had that passing like is terrible because I don't even want a divorce at this point, but I just, I feel trapped and I don't like feeling that way.

(Pause): [00:44:47 00:44:53]

THERAPIST: That's really it's really tricky because it sounds like you're not that it's wrong in a way, the way you used to think to be, to grow up and be allowed to think for yourself and make your own judgments unless they're different from the judgments you were taught that's (inaudible) [00:45:19]

CLIENT: I don't know. I just know people who get divorced, people differently sometimes within the church, which is ironic because you're not supposed to judge anyone but it is, it's a little like after you spend like $20,000 on a wedding and reception and you invite everyone you love and you make this big deal of making a really public promise in front of God and everyone to say, 'no, he doesn't have a job. I'm leaving,' is just not thinkable.

THERAPIST: What if (inaudible) [00:46:00]

CLIENT: (Deep breath) That's something I keep coming back to because I'm so, so upset about it and we don't talk about it. (Sigh).

THERAPIST: Good stuff, but there's a lot there's so much harshness towards yourself and I never figured there'd be so, so, so self critical about having a fantasy, not an action, just thought they're just thoughts and it's part of getting to know your own mind and finding your mind, you know, not what other people telling you what to think or what you're supposed to do to placate Ivan or even me or, you know. Who you are is one of our tasks here. (inaudible) without telling you what not to think. Almost as much as (inaudible) which is (inaudible) come back to it. Give the double session earlier some thought and [00:46:50]

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: you know, of course if I don't hear from you I'll assume we're sticking with 10 o'clock -

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: and we'll just keep you on the (inaudible) okay? [00:47:13]

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: (inaudible) Are you comfortable if I contact [00:47:21]

CLIENT: Absolutely.

THERAPIST: I just want you to feel comfortable with that.

CLIENT: I'd actually appreciate it, yeah.

THERAPIST: I think I have a release.

CLIENT: (Cross talk) (inaudible) because I've signed one for Dr. (inaudible) [00:47:38]

THERAPIST: Actually, I don't think you did because I double checked it a few weeks ago (cross talk) but you don't have a release so just -

CLIENT: Sure, sure.

THERAPIST: I just want to be sure I have it in my file.

CLIENT: Absolutely.

THERAPIST: How do you think Ivan would feel about, because I don't want to also reach his -

CLIENT: About you talking to Dr. Bourd (sp?)

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: Well, we've already talked about that and he was fine with it.

THERAPIST: And he was fine the first time around, but now you think he'd be okay?

CLIENT: I think so. I can ask him if he wants to shoot you an e-mail.

THERAPIST: That would be great if you want to just let him know that you're asking for this?

(Pause): [00:48:11 00:48:25]

THERAPIST: I mean (inaudible) you don't need to.

CLIENT: (Laugh) Okay.

(Pause): [00:48:27 00:48:32]

THERAPIST: (inaudible) His name is John. Correct?

CLIENT: Yes. That's right.

(Pause): [00:48:48 00:48:59]

THERAPIST: Okay?

CLIENT: Thank you.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: All right. Thank you.

THERAPIST: Thank you, too.

CLIENT: Bye.

END TRANSCRIPT