TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

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CLIENT: So I can find out what's going on there, because they're supposed to cover 80%, then there's my 20% and then there's a co-pay. So that's why there's a-

THERAPIST: I'm pretty sure, if I'm understanding the statements correctly. But I can definitely call and ask. So that would actually make sense, if they're deducting not just the co-pay but also 20% then.

CLIENT: Yeah. Because they only do 80%. But I can see why there was a discrepancy.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Oddly, I got reimbursements from March, and then February, and then January, even though that's not the order they were sended in. And the March statements were the one, there were three that came in at $175, but the February and January were $120. So maybe it's changing, I don't-

CLIENT: I can ask for sure.

THERAPIST: I'm perfectly comfortable even if it's $120.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: And as I said, if we ever go up to twice a week we can surely make sure that you're still only paying 10. So how are you feeling? How's your anxiety and-

CLIENT: So that-yeah. I guess I'm wanting to sort of revisit, because last session I feel like I talked a lot about Ivan, as opposed to addressing the session before where I left here sobbing and a mess. So I think you described it as agitated depression.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I find myself to be irritable, really irritable sometimes, and easily agitated, and also really down sometimes, and also reallySo pretty much since that session I like stopped, I wasn't going to be like crying a lot anymore, I wasn't going to be journaling. Like I just kinda like shut it down. Which maybe is not a good, but I just felt like I-that was how I could get through. But I'm anxious more times than others, it really varies. I've been incredibly busy with school and stuff lately so I haven't really had a chance to see what it's-so it's like I can't tell if I'm doing things manically, because I really do have to do a lot to meet certain deadlines, so I can't completely tell. [2:20]

THERAPIST: Yeah. You're able to function at school though.

CLIENT: I've never not been able to function, yeah. Because it's just-that for me is not an option.

THERAPIST: Yeah. This is a part of what I say is so adaptive about your defensive system, is that it allows you to keep working. And some people when they get depressed stopped functioning. They don't go to class, they don't-you know. And they feel like they can't help it, right?

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: You feel like you can't help it, but to get your stuff done.

CLIENT: It's the only thing II think for me that feels a repetitive of growing up, it's like the thing I have to cling to. It's the thing I can make work and go well. And honestly, I thought, like if something did go wrong, if I did get a grade back that wasn't okay or something, like I couldn't handle it at this point. It's the oneSo that's what makes me feel good about myself sometimes and really gives me purpose and keeps me going.

THERAPIST: Yeah. It's almost like maybe that's this kind of pocket of your experience that feels like this at least is in my control.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: For the time being, if you work really, really hard and you study hard you can kind of be on top of things. If it feels like everything else is kinda out of your control right now that gives you some solace.

CLIENT: Yeah, and that's how it's always been. It's always really-yeah, it really-and it's completely where I put all my self-worth pretty much, the grades and any kind of accomplishment there. But there are times I think I've described to you where-like on the weekend or whatever I've spent, you know, a big chunk of the day just staying in bed and not doing a whole lot. And the apartment's clean but it needs straightening, but I'm just not likeSo as long as everything gets done that has to be done, and as long as the apartment is-I can-I've done that sometimes, and I've noticed like it's more than just I'm tired I can spend the day vegging, it's more than that. [4:15]

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: So there are times like that, there just haven't been lately because-

THERAPIST: You're so busy, forced to be busy, yeah.

CLIENT: I've noticed my OCD a little bit, like I'm-yeah.

THERAPIST: Where? What do you notice?

CLIENT: So, I mean, I cleaned the apartment obviously. It was Easter, and it was also Ivan's birthday yesterday, and I had a couple people over. But the apartment didn't need to be clean, it needed to be like spotless. So that was a little-yeah, it came out there. I also-I wash my hands more than I need, and sometimes when I do like I'll wash twice, and I don't really completely know why. But it's very much-those types of things, it's more of an obsessive-it's not-but there's also-I don't know how to explain it. There's also a part of me that looks at the apartment, and if the TV's dusty or if like-I don't say, "Well, it looks great," you know, like this is normal, I want it to be spotless. And that's the part that-yeah.

THERAPIST: It does sound like your OCD is a way of maintaining a sense of being in control.

CLIENT: I think for me, yeah, it's all about maintaining control in the little aspects of my life that I can, and the perfectionistic tendencies of-my draft is 19 pages long, it's the complete paper, everything's done. Like I think the more-for whatever reason it makes me feel better. At the end of the day I realize I'm still depressed and I still have this stuff going on, but I really do feel like I feel a little bit better because it is spotless and everything's done. So it's like all I can-it feels like all I can control so it has to be perfect. [6:15]

THERAPIST: Mm hm, mm hm.

CLIENT: So yeah, I guess I'm noticing that. And like I say, I'm noticing I can be really irritable sometimes. And little things that would really not bother me I would think in the span, they do. And I also became more aware this weekend of just being really resentful, really resentful. And kind of reaching a point where I just didn't like being around Ivan, or I just didn't want to even-like I really didn't like anything about it and I really justSo I found myself being negative, obviously. I did have-Friday was a really-felt like a really rough session with Dr. Farrow, and Ivan did a good bit of yelling and swearing. And I ended up doing a good bit after. Not during, we'd never during. And then I did a good bit of yelling. And eventually I got home and I just kind of told him how I felt, and he just like walked out of the room, he just like didn't respond. It's like, "Well, I had to, you were beating yourself up." And I'm like-

THERAPIST: Beating yourself up?

CLIENT: Yeah. No, I mean, I told him how I felt, and I told him I felt like it was me, like I felt like if-that it almost felt like if I could change so many things about myself maybe none of it or some of it would go away. And he responded to it by just leaving the room, which felt more of a confirmation than a, like, "No, you know, it's not all your fault." So he wasn't able to deal with it, and so it wasn't good. But I asked him-I was getting ready to leave, because I spent Friday night a few hours in the ER working on the research study again, so I was getting ready to leave, and I'm like, "You know what, it's a nice day, why don't you go out for a while and I'll be gone by the time you get back? I just need to get a couple things together." And I was just so upset. So I really asked him to go, because he kind of left the room. I felt like he was-like he would maybe walk out anyway, so I was just like, I want it to be on my terms, you go, and I will get my stuff together and go. And when he left I was upset, which has happened to me before when I've tried-like even with my mom and stuff, like if I've asked them to-then I'm still upset because they've still left. But I didn't feel good after he left, I felt a little unsafe. I felt a little like I didn't want to be alone, I felt really not in a good place. So anyway. [9:00]

THERAPIST: I think one of the things that's so important about where you are, where you and he are as a couple, that you're starting to articulate and that you've articulated to me in writing, but not so much in words when you're here, is, Ramona, how much self-loathing and very negative feelings you have about your own self is in the mix in this. You and Ivan play out by and large a dynamic where he's the one holding out publicly how much he hates himself and rips himself and he's so bad, right, and you hold out publicly how disappointed you are in him and how angry you are at him and how critical you are of him. But I don't think that's the whole of what either one of you is feeling. Because for you, just beneath that surface the same things that you say to Ivan, the same anger that comes at him, the same criticism that comes at him-and some of it for good reason for him, right, because this is not saying it's not valid-you feel towards your own self I think all the time. There's so much self-criticism. And I think one of the ways you kind of mostly fend-sort of ward off being too aware of that-is by going around trying to be sort of as perfect asAnd on top of many things, and as long as you can make this spotless and that spotless and that spotless, you don't really have to come into touch with how you feel about yourself if there are spots there. If it isn't perfect-not that there's any such a thing as perfect. If there's dust on the TV I think you feel like a piece of shit. Like you feel worthless. It's sort of like a sign of really what the truth is about yourself deep down inside. These are feelings that are remnants from your childhood. You know, as you started to talk about the feeling that if you were a better person, or more this, or more that, or less this, or less that, then Ivan would somehow rally and be different. That's the feeling from your own childhood, the fantasies that kids grow when your parents are incompetent, incapable, unloving, neglectful, in whatever way that appears. You sound like you've started to tell yourself deep inside that it must be me.

CLIENT: It's the only way to deal with it. I know that's not true, but that's how it feels. And it also-

THERAPIST: Ramona, I actually think as a kid it is one of the only ways of dealing with it. That is what kids who are abused do, for example. You get beaten, what do you do over time? You say, "Well, I must have deserved it or else my loving parent wouldn't beat me." [12:00]

CLIENT: But it also feels very, very-it's incorrect I guess, but it feels very real that it really is my responsibility, and it really is within my control, and if I really did do certain things I could make it better. And that-I know you keep saying like I'm not stuck in survival mode, I wasn't as a child like that, but it really does feel that way. It completely feels that way. Because I want the basic needs to be met, I really do want to do certain things, and I think I'll look back on this and [unclear, distortion], "Well, if I had done this differently, or if I had worked [unclear] then I could have-" Right? Just beating myself. Or I should have known that this stuff was going on with him. And it really-I can't escape that. And it doesn't feel very good being responsible for all those things.

THERAPIST: [unclear]

CLIENT: It's the onlyIt's like the only way to deal with it.

THERAPIST: I think with Ivan you could even say like that is so [unclear], that it's the only way to deal with it. It doesn't mean [unclear], but it is the only thing you've ever known about how to [unclear]. Because here's what's [unclear] about what you're doing, this is what makes sense. And like you don't sound crazy to me, right, I totally get what you're saying. If he was a kid, seven years old [unclear], oh my gosh, the parents are really incompetent here, they're not playing a part. There's nothing you can do, you cannot control them. What's in your control is your own self, right. Not just you, this is anyone. Anyone in their own family, the things that are in control are what's in your control. So in some ways to tell yourself, well, I'm to blame. If I were just to [unclear] then you control your environment, [unclear], you do control some parts of your environment. Those are the parts that you control. But I think you've told yourself that it was your fault and you were to blame about too much as a way of protecting yourself. Because what happens if you stop doing that? What you start to realize, my parents have no idea what they're doing and they're in over their heads, and they're depressed and they're never going to be able to take care of me. That's a horrific, horrific realization for a seven year old. Or a ten year old, a fourteen year old. [14:30]

CLIENT: It's a horrific realization for a 26 year old. Like, maybe that's a really childish mentality of mine, but it's a lot. I still, if my mom gets upset and she's on the phone and she's really down, I have such an urge. If I lived close I would absolutely be home taking care of things and cleaning, and like I would absolutely be doing it. And I know how unhealthy that is, and I've figured out over the years on some intellectual level that that doesn't-you know, it doesn't fix the problem and it doesn't-but for some reason I can't just let it all go.

THERAPIST: Well, I get that it's horrific for a 26 year old. Because I don't think you've ever had the space and time to take in-sort of to process your life up until now. To sort of know what happened and what you didn't get. There's a part of you I think still hoping and wishing somehow if you were to just do enough your mother would be a different person.

CLIENT: Yeah, but I don't thinkIt really does feelIt's something IEven with Ivan or with parents, it really is hardThis is something my sister is good at and she's really rational about. It really is hard to take a step back and say, "Well, my dad's a workaholic, he has his own reasons for that." Like, that's his problem, it's not my fault. I didn't cause it, I can't fix it. Or my mom is like, she struggles with depression and all these fears and all these like-and it's not my fault and I can't fix it, and when she acts in ways that reflect those things that's not a reflection on me. Or when Ivan, you know, won't do certain things, or is absent in certain ways, or even so emotionally withdrawn, or verbally withdrawn, like just physically withdrawn, that it's not me and it's not my fault-I don't believe that. Like hearing that come out of my mouth is so crazy, it doesn't feel that way. People always-my sister's is, you know, "Don't take it personally. Don't take it personally." My sister is-she's really upset about the situation with Ivan, she's very protective. And for all intents and purposes like she's my mom a lot of the time. I mean, she really fills that roll since a very-since she was like 12. And she'll say, like, "Ramona, if you had never met him you would still be struggling with these things. It's not your fault, and that's him and he needs to get it together." And she'll say things like that. And no one seems to really grasp that when my mom or my dad or Ivan, when they do those things or say things, and it really reflects their own-it doesn't feel that way. [17:10]

THERAPIST: You feel like it's your fault.

CLIENT: Yes, and I feel-

THERAPIST: What Ivan's going through?

CLIENT: Yes. I don't know if I feel like it's my fault, but I feel like when he says or does certain things it's a reflection of he doesn't care about me, he doesn't love me, and if I could change something maybe that would be different. Or that's his own thing. I'm not going to get worked up about it, he's not really angry at me, he's angry at himself. Like, I can't take that step back, it feels very intensely personal because these are very-they're supposed to be like very intimate relationships in anyone's life, so it's hard to-you know.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I take things very personally, even if it's a friend, even if it's a professor. Like, that's my thing to work on. But I don't know if anyone realizes it's not that simple. And I legitimately feel like I don't have the knowledge or the objectivity to look at things sometimes and say like, "It's okay, that's their thing and they're dealing with it and I'm not going to take it personally."

THERAPIST: There's a way you fault yourself for everything that goes on in everyone around you.

CLIENT: But then honestly, from couples counseling-which is kind of going horrifically-all I hear, or all I perceive-not all, but that's obviously a magnification-but it feels like if I could just be less critical of Ivan, if I could pull back the judgment, if I could do that, maybe that is the only problem. Maybe we wouldn't have marital problems if I weren't this critical judgmental person. Or-

THERAPIST: So that's not at all what I hear Dr. Farrow say.

CLIENT: No, no. But this is my-and so it feels like on the one hand I am already-I feel responsible, I feel like it's a reflection on me, I feel like I'mI've done-like, truly I do like everything within my power and more than I should, like cross the line with helping or coaching or harassing, or whatever. It feels like I just need to bury it, just get rid of that criticism towards him and just maybe even try to-more inwards. Even if it means like I'm being hard on myself, I'm not being critical. So it's just like-it feels a bit self-destructive, it feels like there's no amount of cleaning or cooking or straight A's or getting the great job after grad-like there's nothing I can do to fix it.

THERAPIST: Have you been hearing me say that the whole reason you're having marital problems is because of your criticism? [20:00]

CLIENT: No, I've never heard anyone say it like that. But I have heard Dr. Farrow say like nothing Ivan does is going to be good enough. I mean, I have heard the recurring theme that I'm really critical, which I know I am. I'm not like totally oblivious that I am, I know I am. But it feels like I'm damned if I do and I'm damned if I don't. Because if I say nothing-

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: -he's made it pretty clear-that makes it better actually for him. I mean, that's an angling. If I say something that's not okay. If I turn it all inwards, it's okay as long as I don't talk to him about it, because that's upsetting. So it's like-

THERAPIST: And that's where I'm very, very protective of you, and have actually said to Dr. Farrow, I think the more you guys can keep understanding-I don't think she or he even gets how self-critical you are.

CLIENT: And it feels like it doesn't matter.

THERAPIST: She-when I told her about that she-it seemed like it was helpful to her to know that. That I really think you're holding these poles and they're artificial, they're red herrings. You're the critical one, he's the shamed one who's so self-critical. That's not actually what's working. When you send me your writing it is-you're not sending writing. When you're in your innermost thoughts and vulnerable feelings, Ramona, you're not sending all this writing about how mad and critical you are, it was how mad and critical you are of yourself.

CLIENT: That's the only-that's all I've got.

THERAPIST: So here's what I think. Your criticism level is through the roof. And that comes out at other people and at yourself. You are so mean to yourself. There's so little kind of forgiveness and loving and holding and generosity towards your own self. Of course you're mad at him. He's not holding up his end of the bargain. [22:00]

CLIENT: It feels a little-this is unhealthy, but you know that-it feels a little comforting. It feels a lot comforting.

THERAPIST: To be self-critical, yeah.

CLIENT: To turn it all in. To like always look in the mirror and never see something I like. Like it really feelsIf I didn'tIf I looked in the mirror and I thought, "Oh, it's okay." Or if I said, like, "Wow, this is so difficult, I don't have to push myself." It's like, "My gosh, what if then I didn't take care of the apartment, or I didn't like work incredibly hard at school, or I didn't-" As it is I feel like I could being doing more in those areas. Like, if I lost that I would have nothing. That's all I've got. So it feels like I really need to have that attitude towards myself or else-

THERAPIST: Or else what? What's going to happen if you start-

CLIENT: I could-well, what if I-

THERAPIST: -forgiving?

CLIENT: Well, first of all I don't think I really need to feel that way. It's like IOr else I maybe wouldn't do okay in school or-

THERAPIST: Like you wouldn't all of a sudden just stop working so hard or something?

CLIENT: I don't know. I can't even imagine what that would look like. And that would be devastating, the results of that would be devastating.

THERAPIST: And I totally get what you're saying, because I think this is how you know how you function.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So for me to say, "Imagine you weren't doing that so much," it's like telling you the sky is red. Like, that's just not the way the world works.

CLIENT: It feels like I-it's like you have control over these things, and you want to just give it all up, and then you have control over nothing. So then you've got a husband that's doing these things, and parents who are still doing-and then you've got nothing on your own, it's like the worst possible plan I can imagine.

THERAPIST: It's devastating, it's devastating. Would your parents-was there positive stuff that went around ever? [24:00]

CLIENT: My parents areYes.

THERAPIST: Like, as a kid, would you get, "Good job, Ramona, for your art work on the fridge," or kind of-

CLIENT: My parents aren't-the way I've painted them is they're veryI don't know, I guess it's complicated. Because on the one hand, they were pretty negligent in some very basic ways. On the other hand, my dad paid for me to go on, you know, choir tour. You know. I mean, part of it at least. But like I took private art lessons. I took private voice lessons, I took music lessons. Emma and I did ballet for a while. So on the one hand, no clean house, no regular meals, don't see dad. On the other hand, all these things that a lot of people-a lot of kids would, you know, be so-we were grateful for about. But it's extreme. [25:00]

THERAPIST: The things you're describing though-you're describing pain for lessons.

CLIENT: Yes. My dad is pretty much evil, to show that he cares through that, through money, because he's not around. He doesn't do the emotional thing. He is a real-like, when I say workaholic I don't mean he works 80 hours a week. I mean he's home 11:00 or midnight, and he's up or gone by 7:00, and sometimes earlier. And if he gets an emergency at 3:00 AM he goes out and does it and still does his 8:00 AM [unclear]. He is-like it's really-it's not-

THERAPIST: Are you serious?

CLIENT: I'm completely serious.

THERAPIST: And this was all growing up it was like that?

CLIENT: No, it's gotten worse.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It's gotten much, much, much worse. He also used to have someone that would go with him somewhat, an associate sort of. Because my dad bought the practice when I was really little. And he has incredible clientele. He can get clients like nobody's business. Because he won't say no to anyone. But it got worse and worse. I mean, literally, Emma and I have this very vivid memory that we both share of waiting up, like waiting in the living room on the couch looking out the window just to watch for his headlights at night. And then we'd run and greet him. And it just got too late and we had to stop waiting up. And that's pretty much-that describes it pretty well in a nutshell. It's gotten much, much worse. [26:35]

THERAPIST: So he wouldn't come home and you'd have sort of family dinner together?

CLIENT: No, no, no, no.

THERAPIST: Never?

CLIENT: Um, we used-

THERAPIST: Maybe on a weekend or something?

CLIENT: Yeah, we used to do Sunday dinners, even my aunt and uncle, and sometimes my grandparents would come, like after church. That was when I was really little. But he-

THERAPIST: But not during the week so much.

CLIENT: No. I mean, he's very-it really is-yeah. He had to go down kicking screaming. He had his carpal tunnel, one hand done, because it meant that he couldn't do surgery for a couple days. And he hates getting coverage, he won't-my wedding, graduations, that's it. But for him it's not so crazy because his parents were like much more extreme, much, much more extreme.

THERAPIST: How do you get more extreme than that?

CLIENT: Like my grandfather used to take my grandma's-hide her car keys so she couldn't go to church on Sunday because he wanted her to be home working. Like the problem with the world is people eating out, and too much recreation, and they never took vacations. They never went on vacation, they never went out, they-

THERAPIST: So it's not a lot of just enjoyment.

CLIENT: Oh no.

THERAPIST: [unclear] or have fun or-

CLIENT: No, they were not at all. My grandfather was devastated because he was in a really bad crash and he couldn't work until the day he died. He was in a nursing home. He was devastated that he couldn'tAnd my grandmother was scared even after he was in a nursing home to do anything. So they left a multi-million dollar farm lands, the estate that is sitting for sale. So they had money, they worked incredibly hard. [28:20]

THERAPIST: So they worked on a farm?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. They were farmers.

THERAPIST: Goodness.

CLIENT: So for him this is like-

THERAPIST: This is a step up then.

CLIENT: It is a step up for him. So he's not as extreme, he's not anywhere close.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: He understands what it's like to have birthday gifts and stuff now, so even little-so.

THERAPIST: So it's a little bit of an improvement over his own family.

CLIENT: A little bit.

THERAPIST: Bit not a huge one.

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: When he comes home from work, what would that be like for you?

CLIENT: When we were like really little Emma and I would literally run from the living room to the side door to greet him.

THERAPIST: Greet him, big hugs.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And was he cheerful? Would he be tired, would he be-

CLIENT: Yeah-I mean, my dad's always-like, he's never oneAnd this is another-you don't say you're tired, you don't stay home from work when you're sick, you don't complain about a long day. Like, you just don't. So no, he was never like, "I don't have time for you, I'm tired." It would be, "I'm going to go in the office and do some paperwork." THERAPIST: Oh. So he wouldn't like sit down and read a book or-

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: -play silly games on the rug or something.

CLIENT: No. It was-I mean, special occasions. I guess Sundays sometimes we used to. But now it's like Christmas, Thanksgiving, whatever, we'll play a board game and eat a meal and that's kind of-at most he'll watch TV. But it's likeI don't know, he's never said, "My work is more important than you." But of course he has in his actions. [30:15]

THERAPIST: It is what his actions show.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Over and over and over again. And how could that not leave you feeling like he doesn't love you that much? You know?

CLIENT: Yeah. But on the other hand, again, like in the ways he was able or wanted to he made sure that we, you know, got the lessons we wanted to take. Or every year, even though I had an older sister, we would each get a new dress for homecoming or prom or whatever. Like he really-he's always been willing in that way.

THERAPIST: Yeah. It's like the only way he could manage psychologically to show love, because he couldn't manage to spend time with you.

CLIENT: Right, it's easier to-

THERAPIST: He spent money through giving you something with money.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Or even the idea of lessons. A way to think about what you do inside your own self now, like staying busy and staying productive, and staying forward thinking and accomplishing, or some endeavor. It's kind of like what you've internalized about how to love yourself from your father, is his love was his love was through paying for a lesson to go learn, go do the lesson, go accomplish the lesson, and that's the contact you had with him. You don't have internalized a dad who would come home and say, "I've missed you so much. You know what, I'm going to say no to these few patients because I just want to spend time with you guys, I miss you, and goof off and be silly," and want to spend time just to have quality down time, shared time with his family. It's just missing. It's so painful. [32:15]

CLIENT: It's something-Emma, like, we've adapted, and he is what he is. But it's true. I mean, when we talk to him, Emma talks about her job, I talk about school, and he wants to talk about those things. School and work are very important to him. Education, and it's like acing science and math classes at least, like very important to him, and he's very, very supportive of school and work. And so that's what we can talk about. And it's a good conver--you know, he's very encouraging, supportive, he wants to know.

THERAPIST: But it's like one slice of you.

CLIENT: That's pretty much where he can relate. So that's something.

THERAPIST: Right. It's so much better than not having anything.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But it's also one slice of you. And one of the reasons we're talking about it is just kind of connecting to where you retreat to as a way of feeling less anxious and less scared in the world is into that slice, and doing and doing and doing and doing in that slice so you could feel better about yourself. You didn't just feel inherently loveable. Just like my dad hangs on the next best thing since sliced bread, just for who I am, just for being, regardless of what lessons I do, regardless of whether I get an A or a C, I am a loved, valued person for just who I am feels so missing.

CLIENT: It'sI don't know, it does and yet it doesn't. Because my parents are-because I come from a very conservative-that's my dad's little area, and so you don't-their parents didn't and they mostly haven't. Like you don't just talk and talk about how proud you are of your children, and you don't just like brag on and on, and you don't-

THERAPIST: Culturally. [34:10]

CLIENT: I think. Or more with theirLike, I'm sure. My dad, like, he went to like the top school, and I'm sure his parents didn't, you know, ram that down everyone's throat. Like, I'm sure they didn't brag aboutYou know, like it's just notI wouldn't be surprised if his parents never told him they were proud. And my mom says, "My parents never did." Like that was just considered, you know, rude or bragging or-you wanted to be humble. And so I'm glad, you know, my parents didn't just say, "No matter what you do we're happy and proud of you." Like, I'm glad there were expectations. I feel like Ivan's parents kind of did the, "We're proud no matter what you do," and that did not work out for him.

THERAPIST: Yeah, he got the other extreme. You got one extreme, he got another extreme.

CLIENT: I'd rather have mine. I'm happier with mine.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I mean, I think yours has more advantages as an adult, in terms of adapting to the world, than his does. But yours also comes with tremendous pain too. There's so much harshness, so much harshness running the show inside. I mean, I think that's often why you've been so inclined to just say how about you and Ivan watch a silly movie, and just practice what wasn't practiced so much in your family, just to create some space where you're just spending time. And it's not about being productive, and it's not about checking things off the list, but just enjoying each other's company. Granted, that's hard when you're angry at each other, it's a totally different thing. But it just doesn't sound like there's a lot of-there wasn't a lot of family joy and settled, calm, good play space in your family where you could just relax and play together. [36:00]

CLIENT: There was when I was little.

THERAPIST: There was?

CLIENT: Yeah. We used to go every single summer for a week to the beach.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: And my dad would go for a week.

THERAPIST: Wow. How old were you?

CLIENT: We did that until-I don't know, into-maybe into middle school. And then there was one year where we tried-like just came for the weekends, and then we went maybe once or twice with just my mom. Maybe more than once or twice with just my mom. Because he just-you know, it's too much vacation time. But, I mean, he used to. And he used to do the like carry us on his shoulders in the waves, and he used toSo there wasLike, I don't want to paint the picture that as a child he never. We had a pool that he would take-I mean, watch us in the pool. We had a play set in the backyard. Like, there was some. But, I mean, really-I don't know. My mom said-

THERAPIST: As a young child.

CLIENT: Yeah, as a young child.

THERAPIST: There was more it sounds like.

CLIENT: Absolutely.

THERAPIST: Then it started to fade somehow.

CLIENT: Well, when I was-so they like bought the house, built the house, the whole thing when I really little, and then he purchased the practice afterwards.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: And-yeah. He didn't always own his own practice obviously. That was pretty soon I guess after Emma. But-so then he has an office and a pharmacy and a house and used to run-

THERAPIST: He had a pharmacy too?

CLIENT: Mm hm. Oh, he has to have storage for-he orders a lot of drugs obviously.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. Sounds like that's a lot of work.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. Especially when it's a one-man show. Yeah. So, I mean, I used to like follow him around the pharmacy and practice my times tables. And then he moved the pharmacy out and rented a space so there wasn't [unclear]. So it's not like he was never there, but he's grown more and more into just work over the years. And it was something striking that I asked when I was going through severe depression before with another counselor, does he do that to avoid the problems at home, or does he have the problems at home because he does that? And she said it was probably both. And it's just reallySo. [38:25]

THERAPIST: It's like his own kind of avoidance.

CLIENT: Yeah. Oh yeah.

THERAPIST: In a way. That's what's odd of it. He's both a workaholic, unlike Ivan.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But it is in a way something he used as a retreat too-

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: -to not deal with what was going wrong on the home front.

CLIENT: But it's less easy to criticize it because my dad doesn't take care of the yard at all. My dad works really hard.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So it's like-

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. What's happening with Ivan, Ramona, is really happening with Ivan.

CLIENT: That's the thing. I feel like Dr. Farrow has done a couple of times like, "You're not stuck in the 90s. I feel like you feel like you are, but you're not." And I don't knowIt's really my perception, and I feel guilty for being stuck. I don't want to be this childish at all. But it really does feel so much like it. And it really does feel very real, and I am aware that my responses are going to be more acute because I'm kinda tired of it.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But I think they're also pretty legitimate in some-like I think anyone if they have a perfect fairytale like childhood would still be pretty ticked off about some of these things.

THERAPIST: I agree. I agree. I can't speak for Dr. Farrow so I don't-I'm not there to know what's in her mind. I would guess when she says you're stuck in the 90s, the only part that I would see as like that is the intensity of the feelings gets so powerful that you're overwhelmed by them, that that's the part that feels like you're young. It does not mean it's not happening. It is happening. What Ivan is going through he's actually going through. I haven't even met him, right, and I-so I have this experience of knowing, yeah, I saw what you're talking about, even live. It's really happening. He would be going through this whether you were in his life or not. I think you would be having like a middle-not middle life crisis but early life crisis about all of the things from his own development that are coming to a head. You are reacting to it. The intensity of the reaction, and the feeling like it's kind of life or death, is-it's that only the rationing up to here that I think feels like something getting triggered in you that's beyond him. But that means only to me, like if the feelings could come down to about here, so that you could talk to them and work them through and find a way of validating your experience while also trying to get to know his as an adult too, that's it. But you are having a real experience of a real thing that's happening that is very, very difficult, that is not what you planned. I mean, my heart breaks for you in even just the story of your marriage starting on a kind of betrayal about what he was doing, what he was telling you he was doing that wasn't actually happening at all. This is not little. So I think your experience is incredibly valid, and the only part that I think would help in your communication with Ivan is finding a way of speaking to him as an adult from your adult self, which means sort of pulling some of your feelings back down to an 8 instead of a 10. Do you know what I mean? [42:00]

CLIENT: Yeah, I just don't know how to do it at all.

THERAPIST: Well, you've been doing it, you've been doing it. But maybe a piece of what you're telling me today you've been doing is actually quieting them all down and turning them inside.

CLIENT: Yeah, it really feels like if I want to make progress in my marriage I need to have the criticism. But when I've done that it's gotten worse sometimes.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So it feels like-and it feels like the only option is to try to get [unclear 42:32], which I've done and it doesn't feel good either.

THERAPIST: No. And to me that would be a really bad outcome if that's what you decided you have to do. Because that is a repetition of your childhood. I want to help you find a way to have your worries and your concerns and your anxieties and your upsets, and not have it be that there's so much criticism towards him and towards yourself that neither one of you can breathe. I feel like there's so much it's like you both drown in it. It looks like you're drowning him, but you're drowning yourself too. So that's I think what we're trying to just flesh out and work in over time, how to start-even towards yourself, forget him for a second, towards yourself, getting some breathing room to be a little more okay with who you are and what you'd doing. Because you're doing, given what's happening, a phenomenal job right now of trying to keep-pull things together, and there's a lot on you. There is a lot on you right now. So you've got to stop. We'll come back to this. The worst outcome would be to-for having quiet your voice altogether. We have to help you find love. [44:00]

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